4 ms·

> In our actual world, I built it in about a week, and roughly half of that time was spent wrestling with different flavors of code-signing and identity provisi

> In our actual world, I built it in about a week, and roughly half of that time was spent wrestling with different flavors of code-signing and identity provisioning and I don’t even know what. I burned some incense and threw some stones and the gods of Xcode allowed me to pass. This resonated with me. This is a major source of friction to "scratching your own itch" in modern software development. Makes it extremely painful to get started. And runs against an engineering mindset, as it's not understanding principles of computing or composing components in a sensible way to build a useful new thing. It's just banging your head spamming incantations found through Google until something finally works.

JohnFen 3y ago
Indeed. The #1 thing I need from my platforms is that I don't need to get anyone else's permission to develop and install any programs on it that I wish. That basically rules out Apple and Microsoft.
- yonatan8070 3y ago
  I say this as a Linux user What do you mean by ruling out Microsoft? You can install and run your own software on Windows?
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    Unless it's a driver. Windows wants those signed by Microsoft. There are ways to get around that, but they're not wonderful. This bit me a month or so ago at work. I don't use Windows at home.
  - apitman 3y ago
    I've run into lots of issues running my programs on Windows. Sometimes it will even delete the executables outright if it decides they are dangerous. This was mostly with networked and virtualization apps.
    - fulafel 3y ago
      And/or exfiltrates them to MS: https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/how-to-stop-windows-10-defender-from-uploading-files-to-microsoft/ https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/how-to-stop-w...
- savanaly 3y ago
  I've made several home-brewed apps for ios. I just make them webpages, host them for free with Github Pages, and on my phone I make that url into a home screen app and voila. No app store interaction needed.
david422 3y ago
> It's just banging your head spamming incantations found through Google until something finally works. Yea, all the while hoping you don't mess up something even worse! I feel like Apple has made some strides in this area - having Xcode manage a bunch of profiles + key signing and whatever else it does when I click "Yes, make it easier for me". But it also randomly forgets settings and breaks etc. which is fun to re-troubleshoot.
ranting-moth 3y ago
It's spectacular how awful Apple's signing/certs/profiles dev UX is.
- shrimp_emoji 3y ago
  [flagged]
darkhorse222 3y ago
This is where a pi web server along with cloudflare tunnel and a website really shine. You don't need to ask anyone to run that service. I'm running a custom todo app off my pi without exposing my router. It's incredibly freeing.
- jessekv 3y ago
  Another way could be host it on a Tailscale network, then it can only be accessed by your own devices.
  - apitman 3y ago
    We need something that goes one level beyond Tailscale. It should be built on a simple open OAuth2 protocol for establishing tunnels/VPNs so you can choose different providers. Then developers can implement tunneled networking directly into their apps.
    - eternityforest 3y ago
      Zrok might be the closest?
    - PLG88 3y ago
      Do you want to share publicly (via a URL for anyone) or privately (accessible only with an endpoint and identity)? For the former, zrok frontdoor (by https://docs.zrok.io/docs/guides/frontdoor/ https://docs.zrok.io/docs/guides/frontdoor/) protected by OAuth could be the solution. Further, if you want to embed directly in your app, use the SDK - https://blog.openziti.io/the-zrok-sdk https://blog.openziti.io/the-zrok-sdk. Today we only have for Golang; Python and NodeJS/Javascript coming soon. More in the pipeline. For the latter, use OpenZiti (which zrok is built on - https://github.com/openziti https://github.com/openziti). We have SDKs in Go, C, Java, NodeJS, Python, and many more. It's all FOSS under Apache 2.0. I work on the project.
      - apitman 3y ago
        I'm aware of zrok/openziti, but I'm looking for something with a protocol-first design. Does zrok have a well-specified protocol that can easily be implemented by others? If not, since you're running a company, you aren't incentivized to make zrok easy to self-host. You can also relicense at any point. Doesn't mean this will happen, but incentives aren't aligned.

JohnFen 3y ago

Indeed. The #1 thing I need from my platforms is that I don't need to get anyone else's permission to develop and install any programs on it that I wish. That basically rules out Apple and Microsoft.

yonatan8070 3y ago
I say this as a Linux user What do you mean by ruling out Microsoft? You can install and run your own software on Windows?
- JohnFen 3y ago
  Unless it's a driver. Windows wants those signed by Microsoft. There are ways to get around that, but they're not wonderful. This bit me a month or so ago at work. I don't use Windows at home.
- apitman 3y ago
  I've run into lots of issues running my programs on Windows. Sometimes it will even delete the executables outright if it decides they are dangerous. This was mostly with networked and virtualization apps.
  - fulafel 3y ago
    And/or exfiltrates them to MS: https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/how-to-stop-windows-10-defender-from-uploading-files-to-microsoft/ https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/how-to-stop-w...
savanaly 3y ago
I've made several home-brewed apps for ios. I just make them webpages, host them for free with Github Pages, and on my phone I make that url into a home screen app and voila. No app store interaction needed.

david422 3y ago

> It's just banging your head spamming incantations found through Google until something finally works. Yea, all the while hoping you don't mess up something even worse! I feel like Apple has made some strides in this area - having Xcode manage a bunch of profiles + key signing and whatever else it does when I click "Yes, make it easier for me". But it also randomly forgets settings and breaks etc. which is fun to re-troubleshoot.

ranting-moth 3y ago

It's spectacular how awful Apple's signing/certs/profiles dev UX is.

shrimp_emoji 3y ago
[flagged]

darkhorse222 3y ago

This is where a pi web server along with cloudflare tunnel and a website really shine. You don't need to ask anyone to run that service. I'm running a custom todo app off my pi without exposing my router. It's incredibly freeing.

jessekv 3y ago
Another way could be host it on a Tailscale network, then it can only be accessed by your own devices.
- apitman 3y ago
  We need something that goes one level beyond Tailscale. It should be built on a simple open OAuth2 protocol for establishing tunnels/VPNs so you can choose different providers. Then developers can implement tunneled networking directly into their apps.
  - eternityforest 3y ago
    Zrok might be the closest?
  - PLG88 3y ago
    Do you want to share publicly (via a URL for anyone) or privately (accessible only with an endpoint and identity)? For the former, zrok frontdoor (by https://docs.zrok.io/docs/guides/frontdoor/ https://docs.zrok.io/docs/guides/frontdoor/) protected by OAuth could be the solution. Further, if you want to embed directly in your app, use the SDK - https://blog.openziti.io/the-zrok-sdk https://blog.openziti.io/the-zrok-sdk. Today we only have for Golang; Python and NodeJS/Javascript coming soon. More in the pipeline. For the latter, use OpenZiti (which zrok is built on - https://github.com/openziti https://github.com/openziti). We have SDKs in Go, C, Java, NodeJS, Python, and many more. It's all FOSS under Apache 2.0. I work on the project.
    - apitman 3y ago
      I'm aware of zrok/openziti, but I'm looking for something with a protocol-first design. Does zrok have a well-specified protocol that can easily be implemented by others? If not, since you're running a company, you aren't incentivized to make zrok easy to self-host. You can also relicense at any point. Doesn't mean this will happen, but incentives aren't aligned.