6 ms·

Hydroxychloroquine could have caused 17,000 deaths during Covid

28 points by hondo77 3y ago

cheaprentalyeti 3y ago
[flagged]
- ceejayoz 3y ago
  https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S075333222301853X https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S075333222... "Studies including only patients receiving HCQ, receiving HCQ from August 2020 onwards, and patients already treated with HCQ for autoimmune conditions were excluded, as well as studies from countries for which mortality data were lacking." > there's no articles about how-many-people-died-on-Remdesivir because The Experts Are Always Right, Peon! Did you look? Quick Google: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2799114 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle... "remdesivir treatment was associated with significant 17% lower risk of inpatient mortality among patients hospitalized with COVID-19"
  - cheaprentalyeti 3y ago
    I believe all of you are being deliberately obtuse. >"Studies including only patients receiving HCQ, receiving HCQ from August 2020 onwards, and patients already treated with HCQ for autoimmune conditions were excluded, as well as studies from countries for which mortality data were lacking." I was not talking about a particular study when I mentioned people with autoimmune disorders. I was talking about people I _knew in real life_ who had autoimmune disorders before COVID started but suddenly couldn't get HCQ because the people running the Covid response decided the best course of action was to take HCQ off the market. How were people supposed to be using it for covid if the people who had valid prescriptions from licensed rheumatologists and were taking it so they could WALK or use their hands couldn't get any? >Did you look? Quick Google: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle... >"remdesivir treatment was associated with significant 17% lower risk of inpatient mortality among patients hospitalized with COVID-19" I know there's a probably a paper that says that. that's why I distrust all the idiots pretending to be doctors and scientists these days. At the time she was given it and died I found out later that the World Health Organization was recommending _against_ its use. Here's the links: [0]: https://www.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-remdesivir-who-idUSL1N2I602Z/ https://www.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-remdesivi... [1]: https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/521319-who-study-finds-no-benefit-from-remdesivir-on-covid-deaths-hospital-stays/ https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/521319-who-study-finds... [2]: https://www.science.org/content/article/very-very-bad-look-remdesivir-first-fda-approved-covid-19-drug https://www.science.org/content/article/very-very-bad-look-r...
    - ceejayoz 3y ago
      > How were people supposed to be using it for covid if the people who had valid prescriptions from licensed rheumatologists and were taking it so they could WALK or use their hands couldn't get any? Because a bunch of idiots getting prescriptions online at a couple hundred bucks for a consult from grifters like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America's_Frontline_Doctors https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America's_Frontline_Doctors caused a shortage. Sudden increase in demand, no increase in supply. Very simple answer. It was never “taken off the market”. See also: toilet paper.
      - cheaprentalyeti 3y ago
        That's not what caused the shortage. It started in March or April of 2020.
        ceejayoz 3y ago
        That lines up perfectly. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxychloroquine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxychloroquine > Several countries initially used chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine for treatment of persons hospitalized with COVID-19 (as of March 2020), though the drug was not formally approved through clinical trials. From April to June 2020, there was an emergency use authorization for their use in the United States, and was used off label for potential treatment of the disease. https://www.fda.gov/media/136534/download https://www.fda.gov/media/136534/download is the FDA issuing an EUA in late March. April 8: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7207200/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7207200/ > As we await further evidence on the role, if any, of these drugs in addressing the SARS-CoV-2 pandemic, many clinicians have already begun using them to treat COVID-19. > A surge in prescriptions based on speculation about their role in the prevention or treatment of SARS-CoV-2 infection threatens the availability of these drugs for patients with chronic inflammatory disorders for whom they are known to be effective. At least 2 manufacturers have announced plans to increase hydroxychloroquine production in anticipation of this need. I think we’re done here.
        3y ago
- kadoban 3y ago
  > I have doubts about this simply because I knew people who needed HCQ for other diseases (lupus and rheumatoid arthritis) had trouble getting it during the epidemic because the government restricted supplies. Your evidence against this drug being commonly taken appears to be that it was so popular that supplies were getting low and governments acted to limit its use. > Also that the only deaths that happened during the studies happened because the studies were rigged with improper dosages. In other words they studied different dosages to see if an initially-promising treatment was effective? > [...] but there's no articles about how-many-people-died-on-Remdesivir because The Experts Are Always Right, Peon! It's known to be a dangerous drug. That's why it's perscribed only by doctors when they've determined that the tradeoffs are worth it. What would the story be? HCQ by the current understanding does fuckall for Covid. So combating the false perception that it's harmless is worthwhile and will be news to some.
  - cheaprentalyeti 3y ago
    >Your evidence against this drug being commonly taken appears to be that it was so popular that supplies were getting low and governments acted to limit its use. No, I am saying it was _removed from the market by the government_ at the time to where even people who could obtain it for other uses before suddenly couldn't obtain it. >In other words they studied different dosages to see if an initially-promising treatment was effective? That's not what they did. They administered what was known from the standard of care of the use of HCQ for treating malaria to be a lethal dose and then said this proved the drug was useless for covid. You can go find a pre-2019 pre-"We have always been at war with Eurasia" edition of the Physician's Desk Reference and look at the dosage information for treatment of a patient with Malaria and see for yourself. Make a spreadsheet and add up the individual doses and see for yourself how much they gave patients.
    - ceejayoz 3y ago
      > No, I am saying it was _removed from the market by the government_ at the time to where even people who could obtain it for other uses before suddenly couldn't obtain it. This is a patently false claim.
freddealmeida 3y ago
[flagged]
- ceejayoz 3y ago
  That's an unlikely claim. https://newsnetwork.mayoclinic.org/discussion/mayo-clinic-provides-urgent-guidance-approach-to-identify-patients-at-risk-of-drug-induced-sudden-cardiac-death-from-use-of-off-label-covid-19-treatments/ https://newsnetwork.mayoclinic.org/discussion/mayo-clinic-pr... > On a cellular level, potential QT-prolonging medications, like hydroxychloroquine, block one of the critical potassium channels that control the heart's electrical recharging system. This interference increases the possibility that the heart's rhythm could degenerate into dangerous erratic heart beats, resulting ultimately in sudden cardiac death. > The antimalarial drugs chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine, as well as the HIV drugs lopinavir and ritonavir, all carry a known or possible risk of drug-induced ventricular arrhythmias and sudden cardiac death. Is it a good medicine for malaria? Absolutely... but even water doesn't carry the safety profile you describe.
  - CommieBobDole 3y ago
    The study (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S075333222301853X https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S075333222...) cites an increase in deaths from cardiac arrhythmias due to HCQ as contributing to the increased mortality in Covid patients treated with HCQ.
- dekhn 3y ago
  It would be rare for a drug to never cause any deaths. I had no trouble finding what appears to be a systematic meta-study of multiple HCQ trials that estimate an actual death rate due to treatment by HCQ.
- klyrs 3y ago
  Never once? Do you have data to back up that extraordinary claim?
  - 3y ago
listless 3y ago
I don't understand this. HCQ is taken for malaria prophylaxis as recommended by the CDC. Are we saying that the CDC is recommending a drug that could potentially kill people? And they recommend it for use in all trimesters of pregnancy? HCQ clearly did nothing for COVID, but I feel like we're maligning an otherwise quite useful medication. But to the original point, if 17K people did die of it, we should pull it IMMEDIATELY. https://www.cdc.gov/malaria/travelers/drugs.html https://www.cdc.gov/malaria/travelers/drugs.html
- klyrs 3y ago
  > Are we saying that the CDC is recommending a drug that could potentially kill people? And they recommend it for use in all trimesters of pregnancy? All medications bear risk. Tylenol kills about 500 people per year. Ibuprofen kills around 15k. Malaria kills 400k per year. Would you rather be pregnant and infected with Malaria, or pregnant and taking a drug with the approximate risk profile of ibuprofen?
- ceejayoz 3y ago
  > HCQ is taken for malaria prophylaxis as recommended by the CDC. Yes, because the risk of untreated malaria far outweighs the risk of HCQ side effects. As HCQ is effective at treating malaria, it makes plenty of sense. As HCQ is ineffective at treating COVID, taking it for COVID means all the same risk and no reward. Similarly, people die during heart transplants. As a result, the CDC doesn't recommend you get a heart transplant for funsies.
6R1M0R4CL3 3y ago
the problem is we have as much papers saying it's useful, than papers explaining it does not work, and even got people killed because it has the known side-effect of affecting the heart. not being a medic myself, how are we supposed to know the truth ?

28 points by hondo77 3y ago

cheaprentalyeti 3y ago

[flagged]

ceejayoz 3y ago
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S075333222301853X https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S075333222... "Studies including only patients receiving HCQ, receiving HCQ from August 2020 onwards, and patients already treated with HCQ for autoimmune conditions were excluded, as well as studies from countries for which mortality data were lacking." > there's no articles about how-many-people-died-on-Remdesivir because The Experts Are Always Right, Peon! Did you look? Quick Google: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2799114 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle... "remdesivir treatment was associated with significant 17% lower risk of inpatient mortality among patients hospitalized with COVID-19"
- cheaprentalyeti 3y ago
  I believe all of you are being deliberately obtuse. >"Studies including only patients receiving HCQ, receiving HCQ from August 2020 onwards, and patients already treated with HCQ for autoimmune conditions were excluded, as well as studies from countries for which mortality data were lacking." I was not talking about a particular study when I mentioned people with autoimmune disorders. I was talking about people I _knew in real life_ who had autoimmune disorders before COVID started but suddenly couldn't get HCQ because the people running the Covid response decided the best course of action was to take HCQ off the market. How were people supposed to be using it for covid if the people who had valid prescriptions from licensed rheumatologists and were taking it so they could WALK or use their hands couldn't get any? >Did you look? Quick Google: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle... >"remdesivir treatment was associated with significant 17% lower risk of inpatient mortality among patients hospitalized with COVID-19" I know there's a probably a paper that says that. that's why I distrust all the idiots pretending to be doctors and scientists these days. At the time she was given it and died I found out later that the World Health Organization was recommending _against_ its use. Here's the links: [0]: https://www.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-remdesivir-who-idUSL1N2I602Z/ https://www.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-remdesivi... [1]: https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/521319-who-study-finds-no-benefit-from-remdesivir-on-covid-deaths-hospital-stays/ https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/521319-who-study-finds... [2]: https://www.science.org/content/article/very-very-bad-look-remdesivir-first-fda-approved-covid-19-drug https://www.science.org/content/article/very-very-bad-look-r...
  - ceejayoz 3y ago
    > How were people supposed to be using it for covid if the people who had valid prescriptions from licensed rheumatologists and were taking it so they could WALK or use their hands couldn't get any? Because a bunch of idiots getting prescriptions online at a couple hundred bucks for a consult from grifters like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America's_Frontline_Doctors https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America's_Frontline_Doctors caused a shortage. Sudden increase in demand, no increase in supply. Very simple answer. It was never “taken off the market”. See also: toilet paper.
    - cheaprentalyeti 3y ago
      That's not what caused the shortage. It started in March or April of 2020.
      - ceejayoz 3y ago
        That lines up perfectly. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxychloroquine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxychloroquine > Several countries initially used chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine for treatment of persons hospitalized with COVID-19 (as of March 2020), though the drug was not formally approved through clinical trials. From April to June 2020, there was an emergency use authorization for their use in the United States, and was used off label for potential treatment of the disease. https://www.fda.gov/media/136534/download https://www.fda.gov/media/136534/download is the FDA issuing an EUA in late March. April 8: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7207200/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7207200/ > As we await further evidence on the role, if any, of these drugs in addressing the SARS-CoV-2 pandemic, many clinicians have already begun using them to treat COVID-19. > A surge in prescriptions based on speculation about their role in the prevention or treatment of SARS-CoV-2 infection threatens the availability of these drugs for patients with chronic inflammatory disorders for whom they are known to be effective. At least 2 manufacturers have announced plans to increase hydroxychloroquine production in anticipation of this need. I think we’re done here.
        3y ago
kadoban 3y ago
> I have doubts about this simply because I knew people who needed HCQ for other diseases (lupus and rheumatoid arthritis) had trouble getting it during the epidemic because the government restricted supplies. Your evidence against this drug being commonly taken appears to be that it was so popular that supplies were getting low and governments acted to limit its use. > Also that the only deaths that happened during the studies happened because the studies were rigged with improper dosages. In other words they studied different dosages to see if an initially-promising treatment was effective? > [...] but there's no articles about how-many-people-died-on-Remdesivir because The Experts Are Always Right, Peon! It's known to be a dangerous drug. That's why it's perscribed only by doctors when they've determined that the tradeoffs are worth it. What would the story be? HCQ by the current understanding does fuckall for Covid. So combating the false perception that it's harmless is worthwhile and will be news to some.
- cheaprentalyeti 3y ago
  >Your evidence against this drug being commonly taken appears to be that it was so popular that supplies were getting low and governments acted to limit its use. No, I am saying it was _removed from the market by the government_ at the time to where even people who could obtain it for other uses before suddenly couldn't obtain it. >In other words they studied different dosages to see if an initially-promising treatment was effective? That's not what they did. They administered what was known from the standard of care of the use of HCQ for treating malaria to be a lethal dose and then said this proved the drug was useless for covid. You can go find a pre-2019 pre-"We have always been at war with Eurasia" edition of the Physician's Desk Reference and look at the dosage information for treatment of a patient with Malaria and see for yourself. Make a spreadsheet and add up the individual doses and see for yourself how much they gave patients.
  - ceejayoz 3y ago
    > No, I am saying it was _removed from the market by the government_ at the time to where even people who could obtain it for other uses before suddenly couldn't obtain it. This is a patently false claim.

freddealmeida 3y ago

[flagged]

ceejayoz 3y ago
That's an unlikely claim. https://newsnetwork.mayoclinic.org/discussion/mayo-clinic-provides-urgent-guidance-approach-to-identify-patients-at-risk-of-drug-induced-sudden-cardiac-death-from-use-of-off-label-covid-19-treatments/ https://newsnetwork.mayoclinic.org/discussion/mayo-clinic-pr... > On a cellular level, potential QT-prolonging medications, like hydroxychloroquine, block one of the critical potassium channels that control the heart's electrical recharging system. This interference increases the possibility that the heart's rhythm could degenerate into dangerous erratic heart beats, resulting ultimately in sudden cardiac death. > The antimalarial drugs chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine, as well as the HIV drugs lopinavir and ritonavir, all carry a known or possible risk of drug-induced ventricular arrhythmias and sudden cardiac death. Is it a good medicine for malaria? Absolutely... but even water doesn't carry the safety profile you describe.
- CommieBobDole 3y ago
  The study (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S075333222301853X https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S075333222...) cites an increase in deaths from cardiac arrhythmias due to HCQ as contributing to the increased mortality in Covid patients treated with HCQ.
dekhn 3y ago
It would be rare for a drug to never cause any deaths. I had no trouble finding what appears to be a systematic meta-study of multiple HCQ trials that estimate an actual death rate due to treatment by HCQ.
klyrs 3y ago
Never once? Do you have data to back up that extraordinary claim?
- 3y ago

listless 3y ago

I don't understand this. HCQ is taken for malaria prophylaxis as recommended by the CDC. Are we saying that the CDC is recommending a drug that could potentially kill people? And they recommend it for use in all trimesters of pregnancy? HCQ clearly did nothing for COVID, but I feel like we're maligning an otherwise quite useful medication. But to the original point, if 17K people did die of it, we should pull it IMMEDIATELY. https://www.cdc.gov/malaria/travelers/drugs.html https://www.cdc.gov/malaria/travelers/drugs.html

klyrs 3y ago
> Are we saying that the CDC is recommending a drug that could potentially kill people? And they recommend it for use in all trimesters of pregnancy? All medications bear risk. Tylenol kills about 500 people per year. Ibuprofen kills around 15k. Malaria kills 400k per year. Would you rather be pregnant and infected with Malaria, or pregnant and taking a drug with the approximate risk profile of ibuprofen?
ceejayoz 3y ago
> HCQ is taken for malaria prophylaxis as recommended by the CDC. Yes, because the risk of untreated malaria far outweighs the risk of HCQ side effects. As HCQ is effective at treating malaria, it makes plenty of sense. As HCQ is ineffective at treating COVID, taking it for COVID means all the same risk and no reward. Similarly, people die during heart transplants. As a result, the CDC doesn't recommend you get a heart transplant for funsies.

6R1M0R4CL3 3y ago

the problem is we have as much papers saying it's useful, than papers explaining it does not work, and even got people killed because it has the known side-effect of affecting the heart. not being a medic myself, how are we supposed to know the truth ?