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On the contrary, the oblivious "chaotic neutral" wizard is a modern invention that subverts the classic conception of what a wizard is, and that's why it's funn

by tines 3y ago

On the contrary, the oblivious "chaotic neutral" wizard is a modern invention that subverts the classic conception of what a wizard is, and that's why it's funny. Historically and in most modern media, wizards are strongly associated with either good or evil. Just look at the Arthurian legend, and at Star Wars. Back then, there were Merlin and Morgana, and now, there are Darth Vader and Obi-Wan. There is a "light side" and "dark side" of the magic system in Star Wars; the magic itself is divided into parts which are almost moral agents themselves. It is technology, not magic, which doesn't care about good and evil. The gun and the hammer can be used for good and evil equally, but "force lightning" was always used by the bad guys.

Dylan16807 3y ago
To me it feels off to use the phrase "magic knows right from wrong" for that kind of good versus evil situation. Is all the evil magic being wrong on purpose? And if we go back to Clarke's law, what if a bunch of technologies simply count as evil and we're the ones that are bad at distinguishing?
staticman2 3y ago
>Historically and in most modern media, wizards are strongly associated with either good or evil. Just look at the Arthurian legend, and at Star Wars Back then, there were Merlin and Morgana, and now, there are Darth Vader and Obi-Wan. I don't think this is accurate. Merlin does good and bad things (I believe some bad being when he served Arthur's father), and Morgan does good and bad things. The Wikipedia article on Morgan le Fey even says "A significant aspect in many of Morgan's medieval and later iterations is the unpredictable duality of her nature, with potential for both good and evil." Edited to add, also see this bit from the Wikipedia article on Lady of the Lake: "In Le Morte d'Arthur, on the other hand, Nimue is still the one to trap Merlin, but Malory gives her a sympathetic reason: Merlin falls in love with her and will not leave her alone; Malory gives no indication that Nimue loves him back. Eventually, since she cannot free herself of him otherwise, she decides to trap him under rock and makes sure he cannot escape. She is tired of his sexual advances, and afraid of his power as "a devil's son", so she does not have much of a choice but to ultimately get rid of him." Also Obi-wan and Vader may have supernatural powers but they act more like knights than wizards. Comparing them to Merlin and Morgan seems a bit of a stretch to me.
- tines 3y ago
  Key words being "medieval and later," because it didn't start that way. The wiki on Morgan le Fey begins > Early appearances of Morgan in Arthurian literature do not elaborate her character beyond her role as a goddess, a fay, a witch, or a sorceress, generally benevolent and connected to Arthur as his magical saviour and protector. So, migration to amorality was a later development. > Also Obi-wan and Vader may have supernatural powers but they act more like knights than wizards. Alright, if you want to say that because of their lightsaber combat. There's also Yoda and the Emperor, neither of whom use "swords" in the original series, they're totally dependent on their magic.
  - staticman2 3y ago
    You wrote "Historically and in most modern media, wizards are strongly associated with either good or evil." This claim isn't true insofar as historically Merlin and Morgan do both good and evil things. Now you seem to be moving the goal posts and claiming medieval isn't historical. You can also look at Medea, who is helper/ healer to Jason and also a ruthless killer at many points in her life. >>Alright, if you want to say that because of their lightsaber combat. There's also Yoda and the Emperor, neither of whom use "swords" in the original series, they're totally dependent on their magic. Well, for one thing, they aren't using magic, they are using "the force." Now you can say it's just magic with a different name, but that's sort of like saying a exorcist or saint in the Christian tradition is doing magic. There's a fun bit in Good Omens about that: -- “Occult forces?” “You and me,” explained Crowley. “I’m not occult,” said Aziraphale. “Angels aren’t occult. We’re ethereal.” -- At any rate to me The Emperor seems more like a demon/ devil figure, and Yoga more like a saint, Buddha, or monk, than a wizard. Though I realize the distinction is in the eye of the beholder.

by tines 3y ago

Dylan16807 3y ago

To me it feels off to use the phrase "magic knows right from wrong" for that kind of good versus evil situation. Is all the evil magic being wrong on purpose? And if we go back to Clarke's law, what if a bunch of technologies simply count as evil and we're the ones that are bad at distinguishing?

staticman2 3y ago

>Historically and in most modern media, wizards are strongly associated with either good or evil. Just look at the Arthurian legend, and at Star Wars Back then, there were Merlin and Morgana, and now, there are Darth Vader and Obi-Wan. I don't think this is accurate. Merlin does good and bad things (I believe some bad being when he served Arthur's father), and Morgan does good and bad things. The Wikipedia article on Morgan le Fey even says "A significant aspect in many of Morgan's medieval and later iterations is the unpredictable duality of her nature, with potential for both good and evil." Edited to add, also see this bit from the Wikipedia article on Lady of the Lake: "In Le Morte d'Arthur, on the other hand, Nimue is still the one to trap Merlin, but Malory gives her a sympathetic reason: Merlin falls in love with her and will not leave her alone; Malory gives no indication that Nimue loves him back. Eventually, since she cannot free herself of him otherwise, she decides to trap him under rock and makes sure he cannot escape. She is tired of his sexual advances, and afraid of his power as "a devil's son", so she does not have much of a choice but to ultimately get rid of him." Also Obi-wan and Vader may have supernatural powers but they act more like knights than wizards. Comparing them to Merlin and Morgan seems a bit of a stretch to me.

tines 3y ago
Key words being "medieval and later," because it didn't start that way. The wiki on Morgan le Fey begins > Early appearances of Morgan in Arthurian literature do not elaborate her character beyond her role as a goddess, a fay, a witch, or a sorceress, generally benevolent and connected to Arthur as his magical saviour and protector. So, migration to amorality was a later development. > Also Obi-wan and Vader may have supernatural powers but they act more like knights than wizards. Alright, if you want to say that because of their lightsaber combat. There's also Yoda and the Emperor, neither of whom use "swords" in the original series, they're totally dependent on their magic.
- staticman2 3y ago
  You wrote "Historically and in most modern media, wizards are strongly associated with either good or evil." This claim isn't true insofar as historically Merlin and Morgan do both good and evil things. Now you seem to be moving the goal posts and claiming medieval isn't historical. You can also look at Medea, who is helper/ healer to Jason and also a ruthless killer at many points in her life. >>Alright, if you want to say that because of their lightsaber combat. There's also Yoda and the Emperor, neither of whom use "swords" in the original series, they're totally dependent on their magic. Well, for one thing, they aren't using magic, they are using "the force." Now you can say it's just magic with a different name, but that's sort of like saying a exorcist or saint in the Christian tradition is doing magic. There's a fun bit in Good Omens about that: -- “Occult forces?” “You and me,” explained Crowley. “I’m not occult,” said Aziraphale. “Angels aren’t occult. We’re ethereal.” -- At any rate to me The Emperor seems more like a demon/ devil figure, and Yoga more like a saint, Buddha, or monk, than a wizard. Though I realize the distinction is in the eye of the beholder.