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That point is so far in the future that I don’t need to consider it. The US is not going to abandon their massive agricultural infrastructure because EVs. As lo

That point is so far in the future that I don’t need to consider it. The US is not going to abandon their massive agricultural infrastructure because EVs. As long as significant parts of the US are not readily navigable by EVs 12 months out of the year, and that looks to remain the case for quite some time, there will be plenty of petrol. I am sure that in 2050 the EVs will be far superior to what we have today. But then again, so will AI etc and most of these discussions may be moot. I don’t understand what people expect to gain by antagonizing people that cannot drive an EV. It trains them to ignore or oppose the same people on useful climate mitigations that have nothing to do with EVs.

chii 3y ago
> I don’t understand what people expect to gain by antagonizing people that cannot drive an EV it's because the people who do this are actually expecting those who cannot drive EVs to sacrifice, in order to drive an agenda (which might be climate change for example).
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  > drive an agenda (which might be climate change for example). Calling climate change an agenda is like calling gravity a political position. If you don’t believe in climate change, there is no value in a discussion. If you’re driving a studio apartment on wheels around town, some sacrifice might be required. The future is unlikely to look like the past. “About a quarter of Americans (23%) think they’ll have to make major sacrifices in their everyday lives because of climate change. A larger share (48%) expects to make minor sacrifices because of climate impacts and 28% of Americans expect to make no sacrifices at all.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-out_of_fossil_fuel_vehicles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-out_of_fossil_fuel_vehic... https://climate.nasa.gov/faq/17/do-scientists-agree-on-climate-change/ https://climate.nasa.gov/faq/17/do-scientists-agree-on-clima... https://www.npr.org/2023/10/25/1208016669/heres-how-americans-feel-about-climate-change https://www.npr.org/2023/10/25/1208016669/heres-how-american...
  - chii 3y ago
    > If you don’t believe in climate change, there is no value in a discussion. it's not the belief that's in question. It's the actions required. I, and many others (whether they admit it or not), do not wish to make personal sacrifices to fix climate change, if others are not willing to make the same level of sacrifices (such that relative positioning within society does not change).
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - thecopy 3y ago
      This is a fundamental dynamic of human behaviour. To deny this is detrimental to the goal of reducing climate change and improving the environment we live in. This is why i think we need global policy changes and regulation to achieve the commonly beneficial goals.
      - rbanffy 3y ago
        If we wish our species to survive long-term we might need to educate ourselves so that we behave in less selfish ways. I don’t live in Florida, but I am doing my part in saving it (I love my friends who live there).
        thecopy 3y ago
        That is naive. Humans are selfish, we need to accept this and adapt our poicies accordingly - as we have historically.
        rbanffy 3y ago
        We can give up, of course, and always assume the worst out of everyone, including us, or we can use whatever tools are within reach to, at least, try to make better humans. While I agree we aren't the nicest species of primate (that title goes to our cousins, the Bonobos), I also believe a lot of our nastiness can be attributed to nurture rather than nature.
- Reason077 3y ago
  > "it's because the people who do this are actually expecting those who cannot drive EVs to sacrifice, in order to drive an agenda" There's plenty of good reasons to drive an EV even if you don't care about climate change or the environment. Lower running costs, less maintenance, better reliability, better performance, quieter smoother driving experience, etc. Besides that, there are significant wider economic benefits from domestically-sourced fuel: money spent on electricity returns to the local economy rather than enriching (often foreign) oil giants, and electricity is much more resilient against fuel price fluctuations caused by wars and oil shocks etc.
electrondood 3y ago
So far in the future that you don't need to consider it? We're already well into the EV adoption S-curve, globally. I think it's worth considering. Also, I assume by year-round navigability you're referring to snow. I'd point out that Norway has 80% EV adoption, and is covered in snow 6 months out of the year. [0] https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F4dwzC2WEAAvpxd?format=jpg&name=medium https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F4dwzC2WEAAvpxd?format=jpg&name=...
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37966767 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37966767 (“HN: Cratering motor fuel sales in Norway show the death spiral that can end oil”) https://electrek.co/2023/10/20/cratering-motor-fuel-sales-in-norway-show-the-death-spiral-that-can-end-oil/ https://electrek.co/2023/10/20/cratering-motor-fuel-sales-in...
- SEJeff 3y ago
  Iceland has 41% EV adoption, and I'm pretty sure they have more snow than anywhere in the US (perhaps only comparable to Alaska).
  - jandrewrogers 3y ago
    Iceland is small. It is smaller than the vast majority of US States. The farthest distances you can travel in Iceland requires not much more than a single charge.
    - toomuchtodo 3y ago
      https://supercharge.info/map https://supercharge.info/map Every major automaker except Stellantis has made an agreement to obtain access to the North American Supercharger network, and there are few coverage gaps evidenced by the map provided above. On highway routes, you’re never more than 30-50 miles to the next Supercharger. Tesla’s standard has been developed by SAE (SAE J3400). Gaps will be filled and density will increase as the EV transition accelerates. Electricity is mostly ubiquitous in the developed world, anywhere with electrical service is a potential charging point (albeit at slower charge rates than 150kw-350kw). https://cleantechnica.com/2024/01/01/sae-develops-nacs-j3400-standard-in-record-time/ https://cleantechnica.com/2024/01/01/sae-develops-nacs-j3400... Wyoming refused the terms for federal funds for fast DC charging stations. You cannot help those who won’t accept help, getting left behind is a choice. https://www.eenews.net/articles/why-wyoming-wont-build-bidens-ev-chargers/ https://www.eenews.net/articles/why-wyoming-wont-build-biden...
rbanffy 3y ago
> As long as significant parts of the US are not readily navigable by EVs 12 months out of the year While a BEV may not be on the cards for them, a PHEV running on biodiesel can be a perfect way to both cut emissions and fulfil their daily requirements. Even just plain biodiesel can be enormously helpful in farming and remote locations.
_ea1k 3y ago
> I don’t understand what people expect to gain by antagonizing people that cannot drive an EV. It trains them to ignore or oppose It is because people say weird things like... > As long as significant parts of the US are not readily navigable by EVs 12 months out of the year, and that looks to remain the case for quite some time Words like "significant" and "quite some time" are undefined here, but there are really quite few places that aren't navigable now. And even in the remaining ones, there's no reason that it has to stay that way more than a few years.

chii 3y ago

> I don’t understand what people expect to gain by antagonizing people that cannot drive an EV it's because the people who do this are actually expecting those who cannot drive EVs to sacrifice, in order to drive an agenda (which might be climate change for example).

toomuchtodo 3y ago
> drive an agenda (which might be climate change for example). Calling climate change an agenda is like calling gravity a political position. If you don’t believe in climate change, there is no value in a discussion. If you’re driving a studio apartment on wheels around town, some sacrifice might be required. The future is unlikely to look like the past. “About a quarter of Americans (23%) think they’ll have to make major sacrifices in their everyday lives because of climate change. A larger share (48%) expects to make minor sacrifices because of climate impacts and 28% of Americans expect to make no sacrifices at all.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-out_of_fossil_fuel_vehicles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-out_of_fossil_fuel_vehic... https://climate.nasa.gov/faq/17/do-scientists-agree-on-climate-change/ https://climate.nasa.gov/faq/17/do-scientists-agree-on-clima... https://www.npr.org/2023/10/25/1208016669/heres-how-americans-feel-about-climate-change https://www.npr.org/2023/10/25/1208016669/heres-how-american...
- chii 3y ago
  > If you don’t believe in climate change, there is no value in a discussion. it's not the belief that's in question. It's the actions required. I, and many others (whether they admit it or not), do not wish to make personal sacrifices to fix climate change, if others are not willing to make the same level of sacrifices (such that relative positioning within society does not change).
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - thecopy 3y ago
    This is a fundamental dynamic of human behaviour. To deny this is detrimental to the goal of reducing climate change and improving the environment we live in. This is why i think we need global policy changes and regulation to achieve the commonly beneficial goals.
    - rbanffy 3y ago
      If we wish our species to survive long-term we might need to educate ourselves so that we behave in less selfish ways. I don’t live in Florida, but I am doing my part in saving it (I love my friends who live there).
      - thecopy 3y ago
        That is naive. Humans are selfish, we need to accept this and adapt our poicies accordingly - as we have historically.
        rbanffy 3y ago
        We can give up, of course, and always assume the worst out of everyone, including us, or we can use whatever tools are within reach to, at least, try to make better humans. While I agree we aren't the nicest species of primate (that title goes to our cousins, the Bonobos), I also believe a lot of our nastiness can be attributed to nurture rather than nature.
Reason077 3y ago
> "it's because the people who do this are actually expecting those who cannot drive EVs to sacrifice, in order to drive an agenda" There's plenty of good reasons to drive an EV even if you don't care about climate change or the environment. Lower running costs, less maintenance, better reliability, better performance, quieter smoother driving experience, etc. Besides that, there are significant wider economic benefits from domestically-sourced fuel: money spent on electricity returns to the local economy rather than enriching (often foreign) oil giants, and electricity is much more resilient against fuel price fluctuations caused by wars and oil shocks etc.

electrondood 3y ago

So far in the future that you don't need to consider it? We're already well into the EV adoption S-curve, globally. I think it's worth considering. Also, I assume by year-round navigability you're referring to snow. I'd point out that Norway has 80% EV adoption, and is covered in snow 6 months out of the year. [0] https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F4dwzC2WEAAvpxd?format=jpg&name=medium https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F4dwzC2WEAAvpxd?format=jpg&name=...

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
toomuchtodo 3y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37966767 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37966767 (“HN: Cratering motor fuel sales in Norway show the death spiral that can end oil”) https://electrek.co/2023/10/20/cratering-motor-fuel-sales-in-norway-show-the-death-spiral-that-can-end-oil/ https://electrek.co/2023/10/20/cratering-motor-fuel-sales-in...
SEJeff 3y ago
Iceland has 41% EV adoption, and I'm pretty sure they have more snow than anywhere in the US (perhaps only comparable to Alaska).
- jandrewrogers 3y ago
  Iceland is small. It is smaller than the vast majority of US States. The farthest distances you can travel in Iceland requires not much more than a single charge.
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    https://supercharge.info/map https://supercharge.info/map Every major automaker except Stellantis has made an agreement to obtain access to the North American Supercharger network, and there are few coverage gaps evidenced by the map provided above. On highway routes, you’re never more than 30-50 miles to the next Supercharger. Tesla’s standard has been developed by SAE (SAE J3400). Gaps will be filled and density will increase as the EV transition accelerates. Electricity is mostly ubiquitous in the developed world, anywhere with electrical service is a potential charging point (albeit at slower charge rates than 150kw-350kw). https://cleantechnica.com/2024/01/01/sae-develops-nacs-j3400-standard-in-record-time/ https://cleantechnica.com/2024/01/01/sae-develops-nacs-j3400... Wyoming refused the terms for federal funds for fast DC charging stations. You cannot help those who won’t accept help, getting left behind is a choice. https://www.eenews.net/articles/why-wyoming-wont-build-bidens-ev-chargers/ https://www.eenews.net/articles/why-wyoming-wont-build-biden...

rbanffy 3y ago

> As long as significant parts of the US are not readily navigable by EVs 12 months out of the year While a BEV may not be on the cards for them, a PHEV running on biodiesel can be a perfect way to both cut emissions and fulfil their daily requirements. Even just plain biodiesel can be enormously helpful in farming and remote locations.

_ea1k 3y ago

> I don’t understand what people expect to gain by antagonizing people that cannot drive an EV. It trains them to ignore or oppose It is because people say weird things like... > As long as significant parts of the US are not readily navigable by EVs 12 months out of the year, and that looks to remain the case for quite some time Words like "significant" and "quite some time" are undefined here, but there are really quite few places that aren't navigable now. And even in the remaining ones, there's no reason that it has to stay that way more than a few years.