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It is even worse for people like me, despite having a charger in my home. I almost never drive short distances, I walk everywhere locally. When I do drive, it i

It is even worse for people like me, despite having a charger in my home. I almost never drive short distances, I walk everywhere locally. When I do drive, it is very long distances, and in those cases range and refill time counts for a lot. On their best days EVs have inferior range and in many conditions they have markedly inferior range. Add on top of that the lengthy recharge time (topping off a gas tank is <5 minutes) and it fundamentally changes the logistics of long distance travel in a negative way. I have nothing against the idea of EVs, they are just really inferior for many common driving patterns in the US. Not everyone does 100% of their driving in the suburbs or has the ability to charge at home. My minimum buying criteria for an EV is simple: high ground clearance, all-wheel drive, and 650+km range with a car full of people and luggage in freezing temperatures. Trivial to buy in a gas car for not much money and essential for many people in the US. We will know EVs have arrived when Americans in the mountain west start trading their Subarus for Teslas.

toomuchtodo 3y ago
> We will know EVs have arrived when Americans in the mountain west start trading their Subarus for Teslas. No need to get the laggards onboard, you simply need to get to the inflection point where the petroleum supply chain is no longer sustainable (due to demand falling through minimum economic viable throughput). Still at least 10-15 years out, as the US accounts for ~35% global oil consumption. US EV uptake is still too early to see where the weakness is from well to pump, but those Achilles heels will appear eventually. Some consumers may not get the EV they want before they lose the gas stations nearby they have. Japan shows us the future in usual fashion: https://cleantechnica.com/2023/12/13/japanese-refineries-close-as-the-countrys-petroleum-consumption-falls/ https://cleantechnica.com/2023/12/13/japanese-refineries-clo... ("Japanese Refineries Close As The Country’s Petroleum Consumption Falls") https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/how-electric-vehicles-are-accelerating-end-oil-age-2023-12-06/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/how-el... ("How electric vehicles are accelerating the end of the oil age")
- jandrewrogers 3y ago
  That point is so far in the future that I don’t need to consider it. The US is not going to abandon their massive agricultural infrastructure because EVs. As long as significant parts of the US are not readily navigable by EVs 12 months out of the year, and that looks to remain the case for quite some time, there will be plenty of petrol. I am sure that in 2050 the EVs will be far superior to what we have today. But then again, so will AI etc and most of these discussions may be moot. I don’t understand what people expect to gain by antagonizing people that cannot drive an EV. It trains them to ignore or oppose the same people on useful climate mitigations that have nothing to do with EVs.
  - chii 3y ago
    > I don’t understand what people expect to gain by antagonizing people that cannot drive an EV it's because the people who do this are actually expecting those who cannot drive EVs to sacrifice, in order to drive an agenda (which might be climate change for example).
    - toomuchtodo 3y ago
      > drive an agenda (which might be climate change for example). Calling climate change an agenda is like calling gravity a political position. If you don’t believe in climate change, there is no value in a discussion. If you’re driving a studio apartment on wheels around town, some sacrifice might be required. The future is unlikely to look like the past. “About a quarter of Americans (23%) think they’ll have to make major sacrifices in their everyday lives because of climate change. A larger share (48%) expects to make minor sacrifices because of climate impacts and 28% of Americans expect to make no sacrifices at all.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-out_of_fossil_fuel_vehicles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-out_of_fossil_fuel_vehic... https://climate.nasa.gov/faq/17/do-scientists-agree-on-climate-change/ https://climate.nasa.gov/faq/17/do-scientists-agree-on-clima... https://www.npr.org/2023/10/25/1208016669/heres-how-americans-feel-about-climate-change https://www.npr.org/2023/10/25/1208016669/heres-how-american...
      - 3y ago
vladgur 3y ago
I was about to call BS on your 650 requirement until I realized it was in km :) My 2020 Camry hybrid LE has a real world range of 800km or 500mi as I call it ;)
- kurthr 3y ago
  400mi range seems a bit overkill since I'm up for a break after 4hours of driving, but 300mi seems like the lower end of acceptable, if you don't have another car for trips. I don't want to have to do some special charge for a <3 hour roundtrip, and if you use only 80-20% that gets you 90mi each way while still charging at home.
mrjin 3y ago
I'm pretty sure someone is going to tell you you'd better rent rather than buy one.
Reason077 3y ago
> "We will know EVs have arrived when Americans in the mountain west start trading their Subarus for Teslas." The sort of people who used to buy brand-new Subarus are already buying Teslas. The people who buy used Subarus will be buying Teslas (and other EVs) in 5-10 years time when they're going cheap enough on the resale market.
- mission_failed 3y ago
  Why would anyone buy a used Tesla when 1st buyers already have issues getting dying batteries replaced?
  - Reason077 3y ago
    On Teslas? That’s fairly uncommon especially on newer models. There’s plenty of 10+ year old Teslas that have done hundreds of thousands of miles on the original battery pack and still going strong. Reliability has only improved since then, especially with the recent shift (in some models) towards LFP chemistry, which is much less susceptible to degradation over time than nickel-based chemistry. Besides, the Model 3 and Y are very popular vehicles today, selling in the millions globally. So not only will the resale market be strong in coming years, there will be a good supply of low-cost parts (including battery packs) from salvage vehicles. You won't have to go to Tesla for a replacement battery back even if you needed one.
mensetmanusman 3y ago
What you are asking for is probably not going to be possible with EVs due to the 10x less energy density of batteries compared to fuel.

toomuchtodo 3y ago

> We will know EVs have arrived when Americans in the mountain west start trading their Subarus for Teslas. No need to get the laggards onboard, you simply need to get to the inflection point where the petroleum supply chain is no longer sustainable (due to demand falling through minimum economic viable throughput). Still at least 10-15 years out, as the US accounts for ~35% global oil consumption. US EV uptake is still too early to see where the weakness is from well to pump, but those Achilles heels will appear eventually. Some consumers may not get the EV they want before they lose the gas stations nearby they have. Japan shows us the future in usual fashion: https://cleantechnica.com/2023/12/13/japanese-refineries-close-as-the-countrys-petroleum-consumption-falls/ https://cleantechnica.com/2023/12/13/japanese-refineries-clo... ("Japanese Refineries Close As The Country’s Petroleum Consumption Falls") https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/how-electric-vehicles-are-accelerating-end-oil-age-2023-12-06/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/how-el... ("How electric vehicles are accelerating the end of the oil age")

jandrewrogers 3y ago
That point is so far in the future that I don’t need to consider it. The US is not going to abandon their massive agricultural infrastructure because EVs. As long as significant parts of the US are not readily navigable by EVs 12 months out of the year, and that looks to remain the case for quite some time, there will be plenty of petrol. I am sure that in 2050 the EVs will be far superior to what we have today. But then again, so will AI etc and most of these discussions may be moot. I don’t understand what people expect to gain by antagonizing people that cannot drive an EV. It trains them to ignore or oppose the same people on useful climate mitigations that have nothing to do with EVs.
- chii 3y ago
  > I don’t understand what people expect to gain by antagonizing people that cannot drive an EV it's because the people who do this are actually expecting those who cannot drive EVs to sacrifice, in order to drive an agenda (which might be climate change for example).
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    > drive an agenda (which might be climate change for example). Calling climate change an agenda is like calling gravity a political position. If you don’t believe in climate change, there is no value in a discussion. If you’re driving a studio apartment on wheels around town, some sacrifice might be required. The future is unlikely to look like the past. “About a quarter of Americans (23%) think they’ll have to make major sacrifices in their everyday lives because of climate change. A larger share (48%) expects to make minor sacrifices because of climate impacts and 28% of Americans expect to make no sacrifices at all.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-out_of_fossil_fuel_vehicles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-out_of_fossil_fuel_vehic... https://climate.nasa.gov/faq/17/do-scientists-agree-on-climate-change/ https://climate.nasa.gov/faq/17/do-scientists-agree-on-clima... https://www.npr.org/2023/10/25/1208016669/heres-how-americans-feel-about-climate-change https://www.npr.org/2023/10/25/1208016669/heres-how-american...
    - 3y ago

vladgur 3y ago

I was about to call BS on your 650 requirement until I realized it was in km :) My 2020 Camry hybrid LE has a real world range of 800km or 500mi as I call it ;)

kurthr 3y ago
400mi range seems a bit overkill since I'm up for a break after 4hours of driving, but 300mi seems like the lower end of acceptable, if you don't have another car for trips. I don't want to have to do some special charge for a <3 hour roundtrip, and if you use only 80-20% that gets you 90mi each way while still charging at home.

mrjin 3y ago

I'm pretty sure someone is going to tell you you'd better rent rather than buy one.

Reason077 3y ago

> "We will know EVs have arrived when Americans in the mountain west start trading their Subarus for Teslas." The sort of people who used to buy brand-new Subarus are already buying Teslas. The people who buy used Subarus will be buying Teslas (and other EVs) in 5-10 years time when they're going cheap enough on the resale market.

mission_failed 3y ago
Why would anyone buy a used Tesla when 1st buyers already have issues getting dying batteries replaced?
- Reason077 3y ago
  On Teslas? That’s fairly uncommon especially on newer models. There’s plenty of 10+ year old Teslas that have done hundreds of thousands of miles on the original battery pack and still going strong. Reliability has only improved since then, especially with the recent shift (in some models) towards LFP chemistry, which is much less susceptible to degradation over time than nickel-based chemistry. Besides, the Model 3 and Y are very popular vehicles today, selling in the millions globally. So not only will the resale market be strong in coming years, there will be a good supply of low-cost parts (including battery packs) from salvage vehicles. You won't have to go to Tesla for a replacement battery back even if you needed one.

mensetmanusman 3y ago

What you are asking for is probably not going to be possible with EVs due to the 10x less energy density of batteries compared to fuel.