8 ms·

It's about how often the edge case comes up. 4 to 12 times a year, I need to drive 300 miles to visit my family. 10 to 30 times a year, I'll drive 50 to 60 mile

by iteria 3y ago

It's about how often the edge case comes up. 4 to 12 times a year, I need to drive 300 miles to visit my family. 10 to 30 times a year, I'll drive 50 to 60 miles to visit friends/family or see specialist doctors or take trip to some interesting event. But on the vast majority of days I drive less than 10 miles a day. My edge cases come up fairly frequently and I don't really have a good fall back for them i could spend a huge amount of money or time to do the 50 mile trips via uber or transit. Or, I could own a hybrid. I could do something similar with less reliability for the 300 mile trip. Or I could own a hybrid. In both cases, i could keep an app that tells me where the charge stations are and account for any possible needed charging... or I could just own a hybrid and gas up at any random station I pass in 5 mins. This is the problem of EVs. Yeah edge cases, but a lot of people can have their edge cases come up fairly frequently. And worse this changes over time. People like to plan for probably outcomes over the life of the vehicle. It's not strange to think you might a few hours a handful of times a year. The more people you need to transport with you the more alternative travel methods and the uncertainty of the charge network starts to matter.

ellisv 3y ago
I fly a couple times a year but don’t own a plane. (Of course, that would be impractical) I think the issue is largely around having to adjust the mindset to plan in advance. For the roadtrip scenario, it might be better to just rent a vehicle for a week. For transporting large or heavy items, renting a truck beats owning one.
- yonaguska 3y ago
  Renting a car for a week is close to a monthly car payment(less true today) - and the more frequently you have to do this- the less sense it makes. I've also found it increasingly difficult to book rental cars in advance that will actually meet my needs. it's a bit of a gamble to depend on that.
  - freedomben 3y ago
    Not to mention something I've been running into lately when renting cars: They will only rent to you if you are from out of state, and oftentimes you have to show them that you have a valid flight ticket. They don't like renting cars to people who live in the local area, and they're getting more and more strict on not doing it.
    - mdon 3y ago
      Where are you and what rental agency are you using? Is it at the airport?
      - jen20 3y ago
        I got refused a rental in the middle of Manhattan once because I wouldn't show them a return flight ticket (I actually did have one, but it's none of their business). I charged the company back via my credit card provider, and have never even considered doing business with that company again.
        Rebelgecko 3y ago
        What company?
        jen20 3y ago
        That one was Hertz. I use Avis pretty much exclusively now. They're mostly "ok" but certain pickup locations (SFO for example) are notoriously terrible at actually having a car ready like they are supposed to.
      - freedomben 3y ago
        The most recent one for me was in Chicago at Routes Car Rental, and yes it was near the airport. It has also happened to people in my group in New York and New Jersey.
    - cozzyd 3y ago
- bombcar 3y ago
  Amusingly enough if you fly private plane it’s about twice a month before ownership becomes the optimal route, even less if you buy fractionally. I’d love a cheap EV as a second/commuter car but nobody will give me one, and my crappy old Passat still works.
  - lukas099 3y ago
    Maybe more people should own (short-range EV + private plane) instead of an ICE car :)
- nradov 3y ago
  Most rental vehicles kind of suck unless you pay a fortune, which quickly eliminates any cost savings. And the rental agencies don't even allow for reserving a specific vehicle. In my experience at busy times you have to take whatever is left, which might not be suitable for a long road trip.
- Johnny555 3y ago
  That's not really a good analogy, unless you already own a short range plane that you use for your daily trips, and to accommodate your occasional long trips, you'd need to own a long-range plane that's actually cheaper than your short range plane, albeit with slightly higher operating expenses (and of course, greater emissions) If gas were much more expensive, it'd be much easier to sell people on EV's, but since there's not a huge difference in operating expenses between an EV and ICE car, why wouldn't people stick with the ICE car to meet 100% of their needs instead of an EV that meets 90% of their needs? If the USA had a robust charging network for all cars (not just Teslas), then it'd be a different matter but I've regularly encountered broken chargers (shown as operational in the app) as well as long lines for chargers (at 20-30 minutes per car, even a few cars waiting in front of you makes for a long wait). I thought I'd have traded in our second car (a Hybrid, not a plug-in) for a BEV by now, but have run into enough charging difficulties on long trips to make me hold on to it. Renting an ICE car for long trips isn't really a good option since it's 30 minutes to the nearest car rental place and they have no parking, so it means my wife and I have to drive an hour to pick up the car and bring it back home and may the same trip after we get back from our trip.
- AlbertCory 3y ago
  A project in the back of my mind: I walk the dog through a strip mall parking lot every day. There are some U-Haul rental vans that are always there. So pretty clearly, someone is doing daily rentals on a permanent basis. The prices are painted right on the vans: $19.95 / day plus mileage. Or maybe they just bought the vans from U-Haul and never repainted them? Interesting question. But U-Haul has a box in the strip mall for dropping off your keys, so I suspect they are rentals. I was thinking of doing a comparison between actually buying or leasing a van vs. paying the daily rental fee. Could there be an economic inefficiency where it's cheaper to rent every day than buy? I'd need to know the year of the van, for one thing.
  - aenis 3y ago
    I have been doing this for 5 years. EV for daily commutes, rentals for hauling stuff for my landscaping hobby and ICE rentals for roadtrips. I must have rented close to 100 cars for those roadtrips. Ended up getting a large ICE wagon in the end: - rentals for the roadtrips cost a lot (about 1.5-2k p/w for a SUV like an X5), and those cars are still poorly equipped. It ruins the fun of a roadtrip if the car audio sucks or the windshield is made of cheapest, thinnest glass. I never knew car companies sell premium vehicles with such low trims. Its a hassle too as the rental companies around where I live examine the car like they were buying it from me. One has to interact with various people and spend the time, and its not always an enjoyable experience, - rentals for hauling stuff are perfectly ok even for weekly use. I'd still love the luxury of owning a toyota proace full time, but there is less of a reason to own sth like this for me.
  - JacobThreeThree 3y ago
    Van rentals are basically the cheapest vehicle to rent.
    - AlbertCory 3y ago
      Another guy said the "purchase" theory is wrong, because U-Haul would have painted over the van. It would be some effort to figure out why they're doing it, so I haven't done so. Wait! I've got it: U-Haul is just parking their rental vans there instead of their own lot. So the vans are actually NOT rented at the moment? Stay tuned.
- refurb 3y ago
  Renting is a pain. You need to get from home to the rental place. Hope that they have the vehicle you reserved and don't dump a smaller or massively larger one on you (which seems more typical). Then do your trip being extra careful not to avoid any vehicle damage at all (or else pay the high daily fee for full coverage). Then when you return it, you need to drive around to find a gas station to make sure it's full (or pay some inflated fee), then return it, and then find transportation back home (which can be a pain with a lot of luggage). Sure it works if you're doing those trip once ever year or two. But if you do 1 or 2 road trips per year? Or more? It's much more convenient just to have the vehicle in the first place. Plus you get the benfits of having it all the time.
thayne 3y ago
If an EV were significantly cheaper than an ICE, then maybe it would be worth the extra hassle and expense of figuring out an alternative for an occasional long trip. But EVs are often more expensive, especially compared to a used ICE. So the benefits, at an individual level, often don't outweigh the downsides, even if it is only relevant occasionally.
- judge2020 3y ago
  Used cars, sure, but you're often either paying for someone else's problem or losing out on modern safety features. For new cars, especially with the tax credit (which most americans qualify for), EVs are cheaper. That's not even factoring in maintenance costs over 5 years nor savings from charging at home (of course not everyone can charge at home).
  - fiddlerwoaroof 3y ago
    Yeah, I made a spreadsheet about this, and (at California gas prices) my Tesla breaks even with most ICE cars surprisingly quickly (just gas costs, add in maintenance and it’s even better)
    - phs318u 3y ago
      Would you mind sharing this (if it doesn't contain any personal info).
      - fiddlerwoaroof 3y ago
        The formula is pretty straightforward, the sheet itself is a bit of a mess. Take the price you pay for each car; take your number of miles driven a year; use the mpg and kWh/mi to calculate the operational cost of each for a year (I think I used a conservative value of like 180 kWh/mi for my 3). Then multiply by the number of years owned and add the purchase price.
        itsoktocry 3y ago
fiddlerwoaroof 3y ago
So, my Tesla is about as convenient as my Honda Odyssey to drive from Los Angeles to Houston. And, since I need two cars anyways (because of a wife and kids), the Tesla is a great car to have for all the trips where I don’t need more than five seats.
7speter 3y ago
There have been a good number of articles recently about the increase of sales of hybrids. Some of them have probably been at the top of HN
lukas099 3y ago
Your 'edge case' seems to be practically weekly, so that's fine for you but not what I was talking about.
samus 3y ago
If the edge cases are about missing charging infrastructure: this is not an inherent issue with EVs since the infrastructure for ICEs is simply way more developed. It will slowly become better as EVs become more prevalent. It's a more difficult issue for very long range drives where an ICEs full range is required to get to the next gas station.

by iteria 3y ago

ellisv 3y ago

I fly a couple times a year but don’t own a plane. (Of course, that would be impractical) I think the issue is largely around having to adjust the mindset to plan in advance. For the roadtrip scenario, it might be better to just rent a vehicle for a week. For transporting large or heavy items, renting a truck beats owning one.

yonaguska 3y ago
Renting a car for a week is close to a monthly car payment(less true today) - and the more frequently you have to do this- the less sense it makes. I've also found it increasingly difficult to book rental cars in advance that will actually meet my needs. it's a bit of a gamble to depend on that.
- freedomben 3y ago
  Not to mention something I've been running into lately when renting cars: They will only rent to you if you are from out of state, and oftentimes you have to show them that you have a valid flight ticket. They don't like renting cars to people who live in the local area, and they're getting more and more strict on not doing it.
  - mdon 3y ago
    Where are you and what rental agency are you using? Is it at the airport?
    - jen20 3y ago
      I got refused a rental in the middle of Manhattan once because I wouldn't show them a return flight ticket (I actually did have one, but it's none of their business). I charged the company back via my credit card provider, and have never even considered doing business with that company again.
      - Rebelgecko 3y ago
        What company?
        jen20 3y ago
        That one was Hertz. I use Avis pretty much exclusively now. They're mostly "ok" but certain pickup locations (SFO for example) are notoriously terrible at actually having a car ready like they are supposed to.
    - freedomben 3y ago
      The most recent one for me was in Chicago at Routes Car Rental, and yes it was near the airport. It has also happened to people in my group in New York and New Jersey.
  - cozzyd 3y ago
bombcar 3y ago
Amusingly enough if you fly private plane it’s about twice a month before ownership becomes the optimal route, even less if you buy fractionally. I’d love a cheap EV as a second/commuter car but nobody will give me one, and my crappy old Passat still works.
- lukas099 3y ago
  Maybe more people should own (short-range EV + private plane) instead of an ICE car :)
nradov 3y ago
Most rental vehicles kind of suck unless you pay a fortune, which quickly eliminates any cost savings. And the rental agencies don't even allow for reserving a specific vehicle. In my experience at busy times you have to take whatever is left, which might not be suitable for a long road trip.
Johnny555 3y ago
That's not really a good analogy, unless you already own a short range plane that you use for your daily trips, and to accommodate your occasional long trips, you'd need to own a long-range plane that's actually cheaper than your short range plane, albeit with slightly higher operating expenses (and of course, greater emissions) If gas were much more expensive, it'd be much easier to sell people on EV's, but since there's not a huge difference in operating expenses between an EV and ICE car, why wouldn't people stick with the ICE car to meet 100% of their needs instead of an EV that meets 90% of their needs? If the USA had a robust charging network for all cars (not just Teslas), then it'd be a different matter but I've regularly encountered broken chargers (shown as operational in the app) as well as long lines for chargers (at 20-30 minutes per car, even a few cars waiting in front of you makes for a long wait). I thought I'd have traded in our second car (a Hybrid, not a plug-in) for a BEV by now, but have run into enough charging difficulties on long trips to make me hold on to it. Renting an ICE car for long trips isn't really a good option since it's 30 minutes to the nearest car rental place and they have no parking, so it means my wife and I have to drive an hour to pick up the car and bring it back home and may the same trip after we get back from our trip.
AlbertCory 3y ago
A project in the back of my mind: I walk the dog through a strip mall parking lot every day. There are some U-Haul rental vans that are always there. So pretty clearly, someone is doing daily rentals on a permanent basis. The prices are painted right on the vans: $19.95 / day plus mileage. Or maybe they just bought the vans from U-Haul and never repainted them? Interesting question. But U-Haul has a box in the strip mall for dropping off your keys, so I suspect they are rentals. I was thinking of doing a comparison between actually buying or leasing a van vs. paying the daily rental fee. Could there be an economic inefficiency where it's cheaper to rent every day than buy? I'd need to know the year of the van, for one thing.
- aenis 3y ago
  I have been doing this for 5 years. EV for daily commutes, rentals for hauling stuff for my landscaping hobby and ICE rentals for roadtrips. I must have rented close to 100 cars for those roadtrips. Ended up getting a large ICE wagon in the end: - rentals for the roadtrips cost a lot (about 1.5-2k p/w for a SUV like an X5), and those cars are still poorly equipped. It ruins the fun of a roadtrip if the car audio sucks or the windshield is made of cheapest, thinnest glass. I never knew car companies sell premium vehicles with such low trims. Its a hassle too as the rental companies around where I live examine the car like they were buying it from me. One has to interact with various people and spend the time, and its not always an enjoyable experience, - rentals for hauling stuff are perfectly ok even for weekly use. I'd still love the luxury of owning a toyota proace full time, but there is less of a reason to own sth like this for me.
- JacobThreeThree 3y ago
  Van rentals are basically the cheapest vehicle to rent.
  - AlbertCory 3y ago
    Another guy said the "purchase" theory is wrong, because U-Haul would have painted over the van. It would be some effort to figure out why they're doing it, so I haven't done so. Wait! I've got it: U-Haul is just parking their rental vans there instead of their own lot. So the vans are actually NOT rented at the moment? Stay tuned.
refurb 3y ago
Renting is a pain. You need to get from home to the rental place. Hope that they have the vehicle you reserved and don't dump a smaller or massively larger one on you (which seems more typical). Then do your trip being extra careful not to avoid any vehicle damage at all (or else pay the high daily fee for full coverage). Then when you return it, you need to drive around to find a gas station to make sure it's full (or pay some inflated fee), then return it, and then find transportation back home (which can be a pain with a lot of luggage). Sure it works if you're doing those trip once ever year or two. But if you do 1 or 2 road trips per year? Or more? It's much more convenient just to have the vehicle in the first place. Plus you get the benfits of having it all the time.

thayne 3y ago

If an EV were significantly cheaper than an ICE, then maybe it would be worth the extra hassle and expense of figuring out an alternative for an occasional long trip. But EVs are often more expensive, especially compared to a used ICE. So the benefits, at an individual level, often don't outweigh the downsides, even if it is only relevant occasionally.

judge2020 3y ago
Used cars, sure, but you're often either paying for someone else's problem or losing out on modern safety features. For new cars, especially with the tax credit (which most americans qualify for), EVs are cheaper. That's not even factoring in maintenance costs over 5 years nor savings from charging at home (of course not everyone can charge at home).
- fiddlerwoaroof 3y ago
  Yeah, I made a spreadsheet about this, and (at California gas prices) my Tesla breaks even with most ICE cars surprisingly quickly (just gas costs, add in maintenance and it’s even better)
  - phs318u 3y ago
    Would you mind sharing this (if it doesn't contain any personal info).
    - fiddlerwoaroof 3y ago
      The formula is pretty straightforward, the sheet itself is a bit of a mess. Take the price you pay for each car; take your number of miles driven a year; use the mpg and kWh/mi to calculate the operational cost of each for a year (I think I used a conservative value of like 180 kWh/mi for my 3). Then multiply by the number of years owned and add the purchase price.
      - itsoktocry 3y ago

fiddlerwoaroof 3y ago

So, my Tesla is about as convenient as my Honda Odyssey to drive from Los Angeles to Houston. And, since I need two cars anyways (because of a wife and kids), the Tesla is a great car to have for all the trips where I don’t need more than five seats.

7speter 3y ago

There have been a good number of articles recently about the increase of sales of hybrids. Some of them have probably been at the top of HN

lukas099 3y ago

Your 'edge case' seems to be practically weekly, so that's fine for you but not what I was talking about.

samus 3y ago

If the edge cases are about missing charging infrastructure: this is not an inherent issue with EVs since the infrastructure for ICEs is simply way more developed. It will slowly become better as EVs become more prevalent. It's a more difficult issue for very long range drives where an ICEs full range is required to get to the next gas station.