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I'm in way too much of a bubble. I worked at Microsoft for years and continued to run Windows for some time afterwards, sometimes dual booting with Linux. I've

I'm in way too much of a bubble. I worked at Microsoft for years and continued to run Windows for some time afterwards, sometimes dual booting with Linux. I've tried but always hated MacOS. But Windows 8 completely broke me -- this was just an unusable OS, plastered with ads and shortcuts that didn't work and a wildly inconsistent UI; big tiles one second, tiny icons the next, some things you had to double-click that used to be a single click, some things you still had to double-click. Some buttons were just plain text, others were buttons, others were just frames with text. It made you sign in with a Microsoft account for reasons never explained. It was just such a heap of garbage that I couldn't do it any more. Trying to help family members who had trouble with their computers became a horrifying slog. So I completely unplugged from Windows; switched to Chromebooks for casual stuff and recommended them to my family members, and a variety of Linux distributions for more serious stuff. But I really know almost nobody who uses Windows; this is the bubble I'm in. Lots of people use MacOS, many people use Linux, and the others use ChromeOS. When I see a survey like this saying that 72% of users still use Windows I'm shocked to my core. I guess my next computer I'll stick with Windows for a bit to see if things are more sane now.

pjmlp 3y ago
Try to go to a bubble outside US or countries with the same kind of life and salaries. You will find plenty of Windows, and developers for the users of them. Linux will be around in server rooms, embedded, and those VMs used by everyone that doesn't want to spend time dealing with dual boot issues on laptops as if it was 2000.
mstipetic 3y ago
I tried windows a while ago and the things you described were driving me insane. I honestly don't understand how that gets shipped. Doesn't anyone care? I'm assuming most devs and PMs are on Mac anyways so they don't even see the mess
- marcosdumay 3y ago
  > Doesn't anyone care? Oh, they care. In my experience, Windows users are non-stop complaining about all the bullshit they are submitted to. They just don't care to fix it.
deleted 3y ago
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oblio 3y ago
Well, it's a mix. There are a ton of captive Windows users, corporate employees, gamers, people working with Microsoft technologies, etc. But there are also experienced Windows users and frankly a lot of the garbage added isn't that big of a deal. Yeah, it requires a bunch of configuration work, but after a few hours you can get Windows to more or less work how it's always worked.
- dataflow 3y ago
  > But there are also experienced Windows users and frankly a lot of the garbage added isn't that big of a deal. I've been exactly one of those users, at least until Win10. I'm dreading 11.
  - munk-a 3y ago
    Windows 11 broke basic task bar customization - how do you so completely ignore your users? Pinning my taskbar to the side of my monitor is the hill I'll die on.
    - acquacow 3y ago
      They have been putting features back into it each update though. We finally have the ability to ungroup open task bar entries again/etc.
      - magicalhippo 3y ago
        I got a new work laptop just before xmas, and since I'll mostly be using it to RDP to my workstation I figured it was time to give Windows 11 a whirl. I'd been holding off primarily due to the taskbar stuff, and was pleasantly surprised that the grouping options were back, and there was an option to move the start button to the left. A couple of minutes of customizations and it now feels quite familiar. Only thing that slightly annoys me is the icon-only elements in the Windows Explorer context menu for copy/paste. Back in the days the saying was to never install Windows until the second service pack was released. I guess the same still applies, just without the service pack name.
deleted 3y ago
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itsibitzi 3y ago
As a software engineer in the UK I'm very much in the same bubble. It's almost unreal to me how much Windows has managed to enshittify. It's hard to know at what point (if ever) they'll turn the ship around and make an OS that's actually pleasant to use. I'm guessing there are basically no economic incentives to do so. I've personally moved to an entirely MacBook based workflow where I have a dock on my table and plug in either my work or personal MBP depending on what I'm doing.
- wharvle 3y ago
  I was issued a Lenovo Thinkpad at work, recently, for the first time in more than a decade. "Sure, let's see. I used to own a(n IBM) Thinkpad back in the day—sure I ran Gentoo on it, but it was nice enough hardware. I've used Windows since 3.1, and still game on 10, I know my way around it. I can manage. Having a USB-A port is sure nice." 40-50% battery loss overnight while "sleeping". And other irritations galore. I'd forgotten what battery anxiety was like. Good lord. Got on the MacBook list with IT ASAP. That MacBook lost 40% charge sitting in my backpack—over a week-and-a-half Christmas break. Ahhh, back home. So much more relaxing.
whatever1 3y ago
All of the gamers use windows. All of the office workers use windows. All of the medical equipment that need a PC, run on windows. In manufacturing all the pcs run windows. So 72% is probably an underestimation. The only market share that Microsoft lost in the last decade was in the school market (by Chromebooks) and the POS (by tablets)
- ladyanita22 3y ago
  What?
  - Gollapalli 3y ago
    Point of sale. It’s worth noting that I think Microsoft lost a significant share of the personal use market, not just to Linux or Mac, but to the apple ecosystem and mobile/tablet computing as a whole.
    - whatever1 3y ago
      Agreed, after all the biggest OS today by a big margin is Android. Mobile is the new PC.
    - vel0city 3y ago
      > but to the apple ecosystem and mobile/tablet computing as a whole. For home users I totally see this in my life. I know of several households which end up only having a couple of iPads when several years ago they would have had a desktop or laptop.
    - ladyanita22 3y ago
      No, I was just saying what he said was ridiculous.
- q0uaur 3y ago
  as an office worker... i use linux, a bunch in my team use apple's OS. i'd say it's only about half of my team that still uses windows, trending downwards. but in general i'd probably agree that more than 72% of office workers use windows, just definitely not all of them and i'd expect it to keep trending downwards if m$ doesn't change course.
papruapap 3y ago
Chromebooks are quite amazing, sadly not native command line, not native IDEs (afaik) and usually very low on ram.
- sosuke 3y ago
  I don't expect to buy another Chromebook after I found out mine had planned obsolescence. After a certain date it would no longer update. I didn't realize this would happen when I bought it so it came as a surprise. Still a perfectly fine machine otherwise I just have to make time to figure out how to install some Linux distro.
  - lostmsu 3y ago
    You could try ChromeOS Flex https://support.google.com/chromeosflex/answer/11552529 https://support.google.com/chromeosflex/answer/11552529 That's from a startup Google bought earlier.
  - nolist_policy 3y ago
    Yes, always check when the device was released before buying a Chromebook. They get 10 years of updates after release, 8 years for models released before 2021.
jwcooper 3y ago
This is a survey from gamers. There are a lot of games that only work on Windows, or work much better on Windows. It's only been somewhat recently that games that support Linux have exploded in numbers. Somewhat coinciding with the release of the steam deck and the massive community it brought with it. There are now launchers for other stores for Linux and more every day. Still, a lot of gamers don't really have a choice but to at least dual boot into Windows if they want to play some of the most popular games (Fortnite, for one).
- orbital-decay 3y ago
  It's because you can run native Windows games on Linux with very few issues nowadays, not because developers started porting their games to Linux more often. Not supported games are mostly online multiplayer ones, and are using extremely intrusive anticheat rootkits. Fortnite is a great example of that. Anticheat devs refuse to support Linux for obvious reasons (too many ways to escape the rootkit).
  - freedomben 3y ago
    Your both right. The answer for how you're both right is Proton. Many more game makers started testing their games on Linux in Proton/Wine/Steam to make sure they run on Steam Deck (and other Linux), but they (mostly) aren't native builds.
    - ParetoOptimal 3y ago
      The steam deck effect is growing and I hope it keeps going.
    - wharvle 3y ago
      I wonder how many gamers now run both Windows and Linux. I bet it's a high percentage of Steam Deck owners. ~100% of Steamdeck owners run Linux (they have a Steam Deck), but some proportion of those, which I'm guessing is fairly large, also has a Windows gaming rig.
giancarlostoro 3y ago
I was able to suck it up from 8 till 10, but 11 is starting to piss me off. I bought a gaming computer a year ago, it was fully pre-built. Somehow a 2 thousand (or whatever) computer comes with Windows Home instead of Pro (wtf Microsoft, you should really make sure OEMs are giving out Pro versions for gaming systems). This is where the fun begins, and I've posted it before on HN. I couldn't install Windows 11 offline in order to avoid making a Microsoft account. I don't like all my personal shit automagically being uploaded to Microsoft's cloud, especially when they default to on, and companies will reset settings on a whim. So what happened next is I had to literally login, and then when I was finally on Windows, I wanted to add a new account because I don't like that Windows doesn't let me set the *username* local to the OS, if you're going to make me login, please let me set the username, I don't want my Windows path to be C:/Users/gianc/Documents or whatever. I rather set that myself, re-configuring all of that after the fact feels like it will break something, and it is not worth it. So I go to create a new Windows offline account only to be told by the modern Windows 11 UI that I'm on Home edition of Windows, and cannot add users from that software, go to software XYZ from Windows. So I go there... guess what error I got? The same exact error telling me to go back to the previous program. I wound up installing Linux in frustration. The only reason I don't use Linux is if the drivers stop being supported OOTB by the installer, which has happened to me before. Linux might have its own issues, but at least it's not completely FUBARd despite one of the largest companies pouring millions into its development.
- SteveNuts 3y ago
  What are the benefits of Windows 11 home vs pro for a gaming system?
  - giancarlostoro 3y ago
    My point was moreso that its silly paying thousands of dollars for a computer and only getting a basic version of Windows, considering they give OEMs an insane discount on licensing (I really doubt ASUS paid $100+ for my Windows license). By comparison my Surface Book 2 had Windows Pro, granted that was a Microsoft system yes, but it would have been insane if it only came with Windows Home edition after spending over a thousand dollars on a laptop. I buy gaming systems because it meets my hardware requirements for dev work. Visual Studio consumes all available memory. Windows Home has strange limitations which I just don't care for as a literal pro user.
lp4vn 3y ago
My 80 years old grandmother uses Ubuntu to browse web content and play casual games. When my aunt bought her a new computer with Windows she couldn't use it properly and complained that she wanted a computer "like the old one". She was equally unable to use Macos in my laptop. Nowadays when people complain about Linux's usability I know that they are normally overstating or talking from prejudice because from a practical point of view no way the usability of any modern distro is significantly behind Windows' or Macos' usability, it's even the opposite I would say.
- paol 3y ago
  There is a huge blindspot, I've noticed, where people mistake familiarity for ease of use (and other qualities too). Of course familiar things are easy and comfortable, but this thought doesn't seem to occur to most. Software usability discussions are particularly prone to this bias. EDIT: another fun one is internet discussions about metric vs imperial systems, with one side or the other swearing that one is inherently more "intuitive" for a particular use. Due to some extraordinary coincidence it's always the one the writer grew up with...
  - mschuster91 3y ago
    > There is a huge blindspot, I've noticed, where people mistake familiarity for ease of use (and other qualities too). The "legacy" Windows design isn't just so beloved because of familiarity, but because it actually provides visual cues to users [1], and the backstory on how it was designed is also interesting [2]. I know that there was an even more detailed article floating around here on HN but I can't find it offhand. [1] https://twitter.com/tuomassalo/status/978717292023500805 https://twitter.com/tuomassalo/status/978717292023500805 [2] https://socket3.wordpress.com/2018/02/03/designing-windows-95s-user-interface/ https://socket3.wordpress.com/2018/02/03/designing-windows-9...
  - didntcheck 3y ago
    Yep. This was on clear display when Linus Tech Tips did their Linux challenge a year or two ago. A lot of their complaints were just like "the wallpaper settings button isn't in the same place as Windows", with the base assumption that there was something inherently correct about Windows' choice And there's the belief that "tech skills" = "knowing where the Windows buttons are". OK, that is true in a limited sense, that "x competency" = "familiarity with x", but the point is you can be a very skilled sysadmin or programmer who still makes "noob" mistakes trying to configure Windows just because you're more familiar with MacOS or Linux This also extends beyond UI to platform concepts in general. I'll take Unix-or-DOS-like hierarchical filesystems as an example. Even here I've seen people equate knowledge of a hier FS structure with inherent technical ability, when discussing those "teens can't use computers" articles. It's certainly correlated, since all major operating systems do use them, but it's still a mistake to think that there's something inherently correct about choosing that storage model, over say how a mainframe or Multics did things
belter 3y ago
The answer is: - They are non IT professionals, who are forced to use Teams and Office and they get it from their Corporate default. - Users of Windows who must have it due to applications that are not available for other OSs. Professional Audio, Video, Engineering Applications. - They are students with their first laptop who got Windows installed by default. - They are part of the well know 2.2% of males and 1.3% of females involved in submission and sadomasochism...
NoboruWataya 3y ago
I would easily believe it. In fact, I don't think I know anyone who doesn't use Windows - all of my friends and family use it (as far as I am aware), and while I use Linux on my personal laptop, I am stuck with Windows on my work laptop. I think Windows is still quite dominant in the corporate space, and amongst people who are not tech literate at all. I used to dual boot Windows and Linux, but the most recent version of Windows I tried (11 I think?) really pissed me off during the setup process, mainly by persistently badgering me to get a Microsoft account. Between that and Linux getting a lot better at running the (relatively few) games I play, I decided to get rid of Windows and just use that drive as extra storage.
- freedomben 3y ago
  Windows does that to me every few years when I try it. Something in getting set up (forced Microsoft account, aggressively pushing Edge, forced updates that reboot my machine) that makes me bail. Now that I don't work for a company that uses Zoom, there's nothing for which I need Windows at the moment.
- wharvle 3y ago
  Most of the people I know who run Windows personally (not at/for work) either do it only because gaming's easiest/best there, or because it's easy to get free or extremely-cheap used Windows machines that'll hold up for a year or so (then get another when they break) [EDIT] And actually that last category's a single person I know who's a writer, so wants a laptop with a keyboard but only uses an old word processor on it, and email, nothing else. Exceptions are my relatives over age 60, who barely do anything with their computers and should probably just have Chromebooks or iPads + keyboard (god, they could really use the accessibility features...), but are used to computer = walk into Costco or Best Buy and buy a desktop tower. Most non-gamers who also aren't computer nerds, whom I know, "compute" mainly on their phone anyway. Shit, so do I, and I'm both of those—my Windows machine is just for gaming, nothing else whatsoever. 95+% of everything important that needs some kind of computer, happens on my phone. I bought my last house on it, entirely, LOL.
  - JoeAltmaier 3y ago
bluecalm 3y ago
If Windows 8 broke you Windows 11 is going to to make you wish you stayed broken. They got rid of a lot of nice things in the UI like ability to move the toolbar (what Microsoft calls taskbar) to the right (hiding it completely would be nice but of course you can't have that without unreliable 3rd party scripts), shoved MS account through users' throat, introduced "lock screen" mess which you can't disable while breaking on battery behavior. In my case it made my laptop completely unusable on battery as I either need to type my password 30 times an hour and/or deal with screen going dark because of "inactivity". No matter how many settings I disabled the behavior is still there. It's widely reported on the Internet but pleas to Microsoft to just let us use our computer in peace by disabling lock screen and screen dimming are unanswered. So now Windows forces you to use Microsoft account, shoves ads and crapware into your face (even in "pro" version), makes significant part of your vertical screen real estate unusable because of popping up toolbar like in good old days of internet browsers, makes using laptops on battery a mess. They removed a lot more options to tweak the UI. It's just full on assault on usability. It really does seem like they want to get rid of power users so they can continue shoving more ads and dark patterns on remaining ones. Like those Nigerian Prince scammers who make glaring grammar errors in their emails so people with any kind of critical thinking skills won't bother them responding. If you wonder why I upgraded - I really didn't want to but at some point they must've sneaked a dialog somewhere where I had a habit of clicking through and to my surprise it was Windows 11 from now on. I resisted for a long time but they have won.
- ToucanLoucan 3y ago
  Not trying to negate your experience as all that's pretty awful, but I purchased my Windows 11 legally of course, and then immediately used modified/pirated install media to install it: - Without a Microsoft account - With telemetry disabled (as much as is possible anyway) I haven't seen any ads in the OS... maybe a OneDrive one? I have no idea what you're talking about with a toolbar though, the only thing of size that pops up on mine is the start menu. Unless that's the new search thing I disabled. I dunno. On balance, I LOVED Windows 7, Windows 8 was a mess, Windows 10 was... more or less just 7 with an uglier and more confusing interface, and if anything, 11 is a step back towards 7 in my mind, both in aesthetics and usability. Though I was also never one for the side taskbar, so if that's your bag, I can absolutely see you not enjoying it being gone. Other positives: - They're finally reunifying settings into a single interface, hopefully they finish this time before starting a new one - New display configuration options are much more sanely organized - I've had just, WAY fewer issues with drivers in general Some negs: - Audio settings are now in five places, any of which can and can not apply to whatever you're doing, seemingly on the fly - They replaced the context menu with a different context menu that's only slightly different and instead of just carrying over old options with some sensible defaults, hid them in a sub-context context menu which just... ugh MacOS is still bae though. And that's probably why I like 11 okay is because it feels distinctly like Microsoft chasing Apple with regard to OS design. But as someone who would definitely consider myself a power user, I have no issues using 11. It's an improvement on 10, IMO, which was a distinct downgrade from 7 but itself was a massive upgrade from the train-wreck that was 8, so overall the trajectory is acceptable.
novagameco 3y ago
I'm a software engineer who chooses to use Windows. I grew up a windows user. I downloaded the Windows 7 Beta when I was 12 years old (and still think it's the best UI any OS has ever had). When I was in college I used Linux more, but found that the only reason I used it was as glorified desktop customization software. All of my assignments were in Java and my personal projects were in C. I switched to a chromebook halfway through college and did all my assignments by SSHing into a rented VPS running Ubuntu. After college I finally got some money and bought some used thinkpads, which I ran Windows on. My first job out of college we had macbook pros, and I hated those frickin things. The UI was so opinionated and slow with all of its animations. There was no way to disable the paneled desktops and there was no built in package manager or tiling window manager. Their bash version (this was pre-zsh) was an ancient build from 2007 and their coreutils lacked all the neat GNU extensions features (I recommend anybody who uses a macbook immediately install coreutils from homebrew and also upgrade bash). I had a million things I hated about macOS and still do. Other companies let me choose between a mac and a PC, and I went with PC. My current company gave me a Macbook pro and I haven't turned the thing on in a year. I use my desktop PC for everything. I like powershell, Windows Terminal, Winget/Chocolatey, vcpkg, Visual Studio, and MSVC language features like SAL. DirectX11 blows OpenGL out of the water in terms of syntax without getting as complicated as Vulkan. I prefer the Win32 API Convention of initializing things with structs and getting more descriptive return types to Linux's everything-is-an-int. I don't mind the Windows 11 UI as much as I thought I would but still sometimes customize my taskbar to look like Windows 7 (but it's just not the same). tl;dr: I like windows, and not because I'm a captive user
- freedomben 3y ago
  I grew up on Windows as well, starting with Win 3.0. I switched fully to Linux in 2010, but have still usually had at least one Windows machine in my life. Windows is really pretty damn good, and if they would just stop trying to force things on users (MS accounts, Edge browser, etc) and stop trying to further monetize the system (ads), it would be a really compelling option. I spent a total of 24 months on macs, and like you, when your preferred workflow doesn't match Apple's opinion of the correct way, macOS is like cement blocks around your ankles.
asdajksah2123 3y ago
I have been primarily a Mac user, but Windows 7 was pretty good. Windows 8 was awful and I refused to use it. However, Windows 10 was really good relative to Windows 8 primarily because it continued some of the good underlying tech Windows 8 brought with it, but was an acknowledgement by MS that the UI/UX needed to be user focused. It wasn't completely there...for example, the Candy Crush ads were still there in the start menu, but the direction relative to 8 was good. However, Windows 11 (and moreso Edge) shows that MS never really had that realization and continues to see their software not as tools for the users to use to simplify and improve their lives but as "products" to be used exactly as MS wants us to use it. My disillusionment with macOS also lies with this attitude. For me, Linux is the only desktop OS to be used by choice anymore.
- TheCoelacanth 3y ago
  MS doesn't think their software is tools for their users to use; they think their users are tools for their software to use.
- xtracto 3y ago
  Windows 7 UI was great. And I'm someone who has used Win since 3.1 days. I wish microsoft maintained a version of windows "professional " without all the 10,11 crap/adware and with win7 ui. Even if it costs more
dgellow 3y ago
Windows is basically everywhere outside of the US and maybe some select european countries. Windows improved a lot in some ways, the default experience is for sure way better than windows 8, though you still have to disable a good amount of annoying features if you don’t want ads. WSL is great if you have enough RAM, you can now rely on winget to setup your applications, OneDrive is reliable, the Microsoft Store is finally useful with Win32 applications (even SysInternal is now distributed via the store!). The settings panel finally makes sense, though not everything has been migrated yet. Windows updates are way more reliable. Windows PowerToys provides almost everything power users may need. The updated windows management is just awesome, simple to use and provides a good amount of options. Notepad is now a real text editor, the screenshot tool supports recording too, Edge competes with other modern browsers and has some unique features such as windows splitting. That’s just a subsets of some things that improved, there is way more. But it is fundamentally still Windows, it’s just way more polished.
Zardoz84 3y ago
Windows 10/11 has become far worse that Windows 8. The last really nice Windows was 7 . And Windows 8.1 wasn't bad (if you use it on a tablet pc)
osigurdson 3y ago
Windows 11 is an improvement in my opinion. But then again I generally like macOS. Agree, the touch focus of Windows 8 was a terrible misstep.
mihaaly 3y ago
I desire leaving Windows behind but the job opportunities in my line of work are pretty much reliant on the Microsoft Universe. The changes (no one dare to call those things improvements in front of me, do not dare!) are done to the system makes the usage more and more difficult and unpredictable, destroying essential and reliable features for the sake of never missed decorated obstructions. I hate it and feel disgust every morning when I have to turn it on, disgusted of all the many of the workarounds that I have to carry out daily to get the work done, reluctant and afraid of any and every updates, 'damn, here we go again, what will break now?!' or 'how can I serve its Royal Majestry the Windows System more to keep it operational and its brand new needs satisfied, how much should I adopt to their royal quirks?!'. Difficult to change line of work after so many years but I am pushed in this direction pretty strongly. (The OSX mentality was a friendly one to me when we first met and luckily its changes are slower in diminishing usability - they try though, they try persistently! - so my private computer is not a Windows one for about 20 years already. Probably it was Linux now otherwise, quite possibly.)
sinkasapa 3y ago
In Ecuador a new mac is way too expensive for most people. The availability of used ones are low. I imagine this is because people can't afford them new so they don't have any to resell. Computer literacy is such that most people don't know about linux. When I'm down there doing research and have participants using linux no one seems confused by it. I think for most people I meet, it is just a question of having linux already on the computer. Everyone pirates the os so the quetion of paying never comes up. As far as I can tell, this is pretty typical in a number of Latin American countries and probably common in most of the world where macs are luxury items.
osigurdson 3y ago
Kids like Windows because it is best for games. If Windows continues to be the best platform for games it will probably be fine.
- fsflover 3y ago
  Kids use whatever parents install for them.
  - autoexec 3y ago
    Most kids don't even have a desktop, just a cell phone.
gspencley 3y ago
Out of curiosity what part of the world do you live in? I currently work remotely for a company that is head-quartered in California. The company issues MacBooks unless you ask for a Windows laptop. Most of my co-workers in California grew up using Macs and love them. Whereas it seems that, for some reason, the majority of the non-Californian employees grew up using Windows. My current manager came from Microsoft and was the one that pointed this out to me (because, like you, I also have always hated MacOS ... before our company started issuing Windows laptops to those who request them I tried really hard to get used to it and just couldn't). My manager's claim, though I'm not sure how accurate it is, is that Apple seems to have a cultural hold within California, with lots of businesses using them as well as consumers ... but outside of the state Microsoft has the hold. Again, it's a hypothesis, I don't know if there's any validity to it ... but I'm curious if there could be some truth to it.
- qwytw 3y ago
  IIRC Apple was donating lots of Apple IIs to schools in California in the 80s and then still maintained a disproportionately (compared to other states) high market share in the educational market in the 90s and 2000s. This presumably had a multi-generational effect as people graduating from those schools were more likely to buy Macs and then children growing up in those households were more used to them than Windows PCs etc.
- freedomben 3y ago
  I think that hypothesis is correct, and has spread to tech startups in general (primarily web-based tech startups). I have never lived in California but have many other places around the country, and with many different companies, and that is definitely in-line with what I've seen as well. The other factor (related somewhat but not completely) I think is that Apple has become a status symbol. People who chose Windows were rare, and got lots of shit for picking Windows. The peer pressure made the majority of people either stick with macOS even if they didn't like it, or switch at the refresh cycle (and make sure to announce that was their intention anytime they got shit for having a windows laptop). Usually I was the only one on Linux, and there'd be one other person on Windows who didn't care about the pressue, but 99% of everybody would go with the flow.
trelane 3y ago
I have to wonder if AI is going to cause more interest in user privacy. It's been an issue with ad business models and AFAICT Microsoft also reserves the right to use your personal info to "improve and develop [their] products."[1] [1] https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-us/privacystatement https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-us/privacystatement
- freedomben 3y ago
  Doubtful. As a privacy advocate of 15+ years, pretty much nobody cares about privacy. When you describe to them in detail how invasive their Amazon products and twitter/facebook are, they get very uncomfortable and don't like it, but they just continue to buy/use those products so it really doesn't matter. I've had people (not on HN but fairly tech literate) say they use Apple for privacy reasons but then had major misunderstandings about that (i.e. they assumed that an app on the app store must be privacy respecting because Apple reviews them, or that Apple themselves don't collect lots of first-party data, etc). So I doubt AI is going to make a big difference.
ismailmaj 3y ago
What's preventing me from going all in to Linux desktop is software only available in windows and HDR, it seems KDE plasma 6 is going to ship HDR this year, so it might be just enough for me to not care about the rest.
chung8123 3y ago
I am in a similar situation. Worked at Microsoft, left, stuck with Windows through 10, now am a mix of MacOS and Linux. I hated MacOS, and still do mainly because of the Window management, but after using it for work and the hardware being so much better for me than anything I could find PC I finally switched. My desktop is still Linux. Most of the people I know switched to Mac which is how I know I am in a bubble.
randomdata 3y ago
> when I see a survey like this saying that 72% of users still use Windows I'm shocked to my core. Of course, that's a worldwide figure. The regional breakdown will likely show you prevalence more in line with your expectations. Only 62% in the USA, for example.
emeril 3y ago
I'm not really a dev so I've made an art of going through all the minutiae of changing the terrible default GUI back to windows xp or so which makes it a decent consistent experience (mostly open shell + 7+ Taskbar Tweaker + manually recreate quicklaunch + remove all pinned apps) Then I spend some time disabling ALL of the updates as they generally do more harm than good Then I make sure to install directory opus... Then windows isn't too bad especially when I have no choice but to use it for my work (whereas all of my colleagues have constant problems with borked updates and inconsistent interfaces) to be fair, I bought a laptop with windows 8 ten years ago and I immediately formatted it and manually installed windows 7 on it though it was a tad tough to find drivers as it was a cheapo consumer laptop)
rldjbpin 3y ago
you might be right, but don't give too much credit to how representative the survey correspondants are. i am from the opposite camp: my first personal computer (not the family one) came with Ubuntu because the SKU was too cheap to come with windows (back when it would've instead shipped with FreeDOS or something). i've seen the pain in using windows 8 in another computer in the family. but then i also faced much more nightmare scenario with linux (as someone not very technically inclined at the time): from wifi/bt chip not working to zero video out in a hybrid-graphics laptop. but after toiling through forums (and learning a lot about managing computers), i also managed to get my parents on using ubuntu for their daily tasks. i was not too concerned about edge cases as i had to step in for IT support regardless of the os. i personally switched back to windows after trying for 5+ years because everything i needed to do "just worked". i cannot say it for an average grandma, but this audience could easily work around the recent privacy bs microsoft has put out. compared to the gymnastics i needed to do in linux, i'd say it is much less of a trivial task, but you sometimes need to keep up with it through subsequent windows updates. i recently bit the bullet and switched to windows 11. i am unable to use wsl2 or any virtualization because it breaks the ability to undervolt a laptop cpu. combined with recent ml libraries refusing to properly support windows and cater more to people using google colab, i might finally be nudged back to trying out linux, but i am on the fence.
Gow8876 3y ago
Some industry use Windows only (or near 90% similar to creative people using Mac only). For example facilities, controls and uncle Sam. You are in a bubble. Try joining yoga or church. You will know many still use Windows.
- keepamovin 3y ago
  Totes agree! Sorry for bumping your comments, but you look like an interesting new one here. WINDOWS FTW!

pjmlp 3y ago

Try to go to a bubble outside US or countries with the same kind of life and salaries. You will find plenty of Windows, and developers for the users of them. Linux will be around in server rooms, embedded, and those VMs used by everyone that doesn't want to spend time dealing with dual boot issues on laptops as if it was 2000.

mstipetic 3y ago

I tried windows a while ago and the things you described were driving me insane. I honestly don't understand how that gets shipped. Doesn't anyone care? I'm assuming most devs and PMs are on Mac anyways so they don't even see the mess

marcosdumay 3y ago
> Doesn't anyone care? Oh, they care. In my experience, Windows users are non-stop complaining about all the bullshit they are submitted to. They just don't care to fix it.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

oblio 3y ago

Well, it's a mix. There are a ton of captive Windows users, corporate employees, gamers, people working with Microsoft technologies, etc. But there are also experienced Windows users and frankly a lot of the garbage added isn't that big of a deal. Yeah, it requires a bunch of configuration work, but after a few hours you can get Windows to more or less work how it's always worked.

dataflow 3y ago
> But there are also experienced Windows users and frankly a lot of the garbage added isn't that big of a deal. I've been exactly one of those users, at least until Win10. I'm dreading 11.
- munk-a 3y ago
  Windows 11 broke basic task bar customization - how do you so completely ignore your users? Pinning my taskbar to the side of my monitor is the hill I'll die on.
  - acquacow 3y ago
    They have been putting features back into it each update though. We finally have the ability to ungroup open task bar entries again/etc.
    - magicalhippo 3y ago
      I got a new work laptop just before xmas, and since I'll mostly be using it to RDP to my workstation I figured it was time to give Windows 11 a whirl. I'd been holding off primarily due to the taskbar stuff, and was pleasantly surprised that the grouping options were back, and there was an option to move the start button to the left. A couple of minutes of customizations and it now feels quite familiar. Only thing that slightly annoys me is the icon-only elements in the Windows Explorer context menu for copy/paste. Back in the days the saying was to never install Windows until the second service pack was released. I guess the same still applies, just without the service pack name.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

itsibitzi 3y ago

As a software engineer in the UK I'm very much in the same bubble. It's almost unreal to me how much Windows has managed to enshittify. It's hard to know at what point (if ever) they'll turn the ship around and make an OS that's actually pleasant to use. I'm guessing there are basically no economic incentives to do so. I've personally moved to an entirely MacBook based workflow where I have a dock on my table and plug in either my work or personal MBP depending on what I'm doing.

wharvle 3y ago
I was issued a Lenovo Thinkpad at work, recently, for the first time in more than a decade. "Sure, let's see. I used to own a(n IBM) Thinkpad back in the day—sure I ran Gentoo on it, but it was nice enough hardware. I've used Windows since 3.1, and still game on 10, I know my way around it. I can manage. Having a USB-A port is sure nice." 40-50% battery loss overnight while "sleeping". And other irritations galore. I'd forgotten what battery anxiety was like. Good lord. Got on the MacBook list with IT ASAP. That MacBook lost 40% charge sitting in my backpack—over a week-and-a-half Christmas break. Ahhh, back home. So much more relaxing.

whatever1 3y ago

All of the gamers use windows. All of the office workers use windows. All of the medical equipment that need a PC, run on windows. In manufacturing all the pcs run windows. So 72% is probably an underestimation. The only market share that Microsoft lost in the last decade was in the school market (by Chromebooks) and the POS (by tablets)

ladyanita22 3y ago
What?
- Gollapalli 3y ago
  Point of sale. It’s worth noting that I think Microsoft lost a significant share of the personal use market, not just to Linux or Mac, but to the apple ecosystem and mobile/tablet computing as a whole.
  - whatever1 3y ago
    Agreed, after all the biggest OS today by a big margin is Android. Mobile is the new PC.
  - vel0city 3y ago
    > but to the apple ecosystem and mobile/tablet computing as a whole. For home users I totally see this in my life. I know of several households which end up only having a couple of iPads when several years ago they would have had a desktop or laptop.
  - ladyanita22 3y ago
    No, I was just saying what he said was ridiculous.
q0uaur 3y ago
as an office worker... i use linux, a bunch in my team use apple's OS. i'd say it's only about half of my team that still uses windows, trending downwards. but in general i'd probably agree that more than 72% of office workers use windows, just definitely not all of them and i'd expect it to keep trending downwards if m$ doesn't change course.

papruapap 3y ago

Chromebooks are quite amazing, sadly not native command line, not native IDEs (afaik) and usually very low on ram.

sosuke 3y ago
I don't expect to buy another Chromebook after I found out mine had planned obsolescence. After a certain date it would no longer update. I didn't realize this would happen when I bought it so it came as a surprise. Still a perfectly fine machine otherwise I just have to make time to figure out how to install some Linux distro.
- lostmsu 3y ago
  You could try ChromeOS Flex https://support.google.com/chromeosflex/answer/11552529 https://support.google.com/chromeosflex/answer/11552529 That's from a startup Google bought earlier.
- nolist_policy 3y ago
  Yes, always check when the device was released before buying a Chromebook. They get 10 years of updates after release, 8 years for models released before 2021.

jwcooper 3y ago

This is a survey from gamers. There are a lot of games that only work on Windows, or work much better on Windows. It's only been somewhat recently that games that support Linux have exploded in numbers. Somewhat coinciding with the release of the steam deck and the massive community it brought with it. There are now launchers for other stores for Linux and more every day. Still, a lot of gamers don't really have a choice but to at least dual boot into Windows if they want to play some of the most popular games (Fortnite, for one).

orbital-decay 3y ago
It's because you can run native Windows games on Linux with very few issues nowadays, not because developers started porting their games to Linux more often. Not supported games are mostly online multiplayer ones, and are using extremely intrusive anticheat rootkits. Fortnite is a great example of that. Anticheat devs refuse to support Linux for obvious reasons (too many ways to escape the rootkit).
- freedomben 3y ago
  Your both right. The answer for how you're both right is Proton. Many more game makers started testing their games on Linux in Proton/Wine/Steam to make sure they run on Steam Deck (and other Linux), but they (mostly) aren't native builds.
  - ParetoOptimal 3y ago
    The steam deck effect is growing and I hope it keeps going.
  - wharvle 3y ago
    I wonder how many gamers now run both Windows and Linux. I bet it's a high percentage of Steam Deck owners. ~100% of Steamdeck owners run Linux (they have a Steam Deck), but some proportion of those, which I'm guessing is fairly large, also has a Windows gaming rig.

giancarlostoro 3y ago

I was able to suck it up from 8 till 10, but 11 is starting to piss me off. I bought a gaming computer a year ago, it was fully pre-built. Somehow a 2 thousand (or whatever) computer comes with Windows Home instead of Pro (wtf Microsoft, you should really make sure OEMs are giving out Pro versions for gaming systems). This is where the fun begins, and I've posted it before on HN. I couldn't install Windows 11 offline in order to avoid making a Microsoft account. I don't like all my personal shit automagically being uploaded to Microsoft's cloud, especially when they default to on, and companies will reset settings on a whim. So what happened next is I had to literally login, and then when I was finally on Windows, I wanted to add a new account because I don't like that Windows doesn't let me set the *username* local to the OS, if you're going to make me login, please let me set the username, I don't want my Windows path to be C:/Users/gianc/Documents or whatever. I rather set that myself, re-configuring all of that after the fact feels like it will break something, and it is not worth it. So I go to create a new Windows offline account only to be told by the modern Windows 11 UI that I'm on Home edition of Windows, and cannot add users from that software, go to software XYZ from Windows. So I go there... guess what error I got? The same exact error telling me to go back to the previous program. I wound up installing Linux in frustration. The only reason I don't use Linux is if the drivers stop being supported OOTB by the installer, which has happened to me before. Linux might have its own issues, but at least it's not completely FUBARd despite one of the largest companies pouring millions into its development.

SteveNuts 3y ago
What are the benefits of Windows 11 home vs pro for a gaming system?
- giancarlostoro 3y ago
  My point was moreso that its silly paying thousands of dollars for a computer and only getting a basic version of Windows, considering they give OEMs an insane discount on licensing (I really doubt ASUS paid $100+ for my Windows license). By comparison my Surface Book 2 had Windows Pro, granted that was a Microsoft system yes, but it would have been insane if it only came with Windows Home edition after spending over a thousand dollars on a laptop. I buy gaming systems because it meets my hardware requirements for dev work. Visual Studio consumes all available memory. Windows Home has strange limitations which I just don't care for as a literal pro user.

lp4vn 3y ago

My 80 years old grandmother uses Ubuntu to browse web content and play casual games. When my aunt bought her a new computer with Windows she couldn't use it properly and complained that she wanted a computer "like the old one". She was equally unable to use Macos in my laptop. Nowadays when people complain about Linux's usability I know that they are normally overstating or talking from prejudice because from a practical point of view no way the usability of any modern distro is significantly behind Windows' or Macos' usability, it's even the opposite I would say.

paol 3y ago
There is a huge blindspot, I've noticed, where people mistake familiarity for ease of use (and other qualities too). Of course familiar things are easy and comfortable, but this thought doesn't seem to occur to most. Software usability discussions are particularly prone to this bias. EDIT: another fun one is internet discussions about metric vs imperial systems, with one side or the other swearing that one is inherently more "intuitive" for a particular use. Due to some extraordinary coincidence it's always the one the writer grew up with...
- mschuster91 3y ago
  > There is a huge blindspot, I've noticed, where people mistake familiarity for ease of use (and other qualities too). The "legacy" Windows design isn't just so beloved because of familiarity, but because it actually provides visual cues to users [1], and the backstory on how it was designed is also interesting [2]. I know that there was an even more detailed article floating around here on HN but I can't find it offhand. [1] https://twitter.com/tuomassalo/status/978717292023500805 https://twitter.com/tuomassalo/status/978717292023500805 [2] https://socket3.wordpress.com/2018/02/03/designing-windows-95s-user-interface/ https://socket3.wordpress.com/2018/02/03/designing-windows-9...
- didntcheck 3y ago
  Yep. This was on clear display when Linus Tech Tips did their Linux challenge a year or two ago. A lot of their complaints were just like "the wallpaper settings button isn't in the same place as Windows", with the base assumption that there was something inherently correct about Windows' choice And there's the belief that "tech skills" = "knowing where the Windows buttons are". OK, that is true in a limited sense, that "x competency" = "familiarity with x", but the point is you can be a very skilled sysadmin or programmer who still makes "noob" mistakes trying to configure Windows just because you're more familiar with MacOS or Linux This also extends beyond UI to platform concepts in general. I'll take Unix-or-DOS-like hierarchical filesystems as an example. Even here I've seen people equate knowledge of a hier FS structure with inherent technical ability, when discussing those "teens can't use computers" articles. It's certainly correlated, since all major operating systems do use them, but it's still a mistake to think that there's something inherently correct about choosing that storage model, over say how a mainframe or Multics did things

belter 3y ago

The answer is: - They are non IT professionals, who are forced to use Teams and Office and they get it from their Corporate default. - Users of Windows who must have it due to applications that are not available for other OSs. Professional Audio, Video, Engineering Applications. - They are students with their first laptop who got Windows installed by default. - They are part of the well know 2.2% of males and 1.3% of females involved in submission and sadomasochism...

NoboruWataya 3y ago

I would easily believe it. In fact, I don't think I know anyone who doesn't use Windows - all of my friends and family use it (as far as I am aware), and while I use Linux on my personal laptop, I am stuck with Windows on my work laptop. I think Windows is still quite dominant in the corporate space, and amongst people who are not tech literate at all. I used to dual boot Windows and Linux, but the most recent version of Windows I tried (11 I think?) really pissed me off during the setup process, mainly by persistently badgering me to get a Microsoft account. Between that and Linux getting a lot better at running the (relatively few) games I play, I decided to get rid of Windows and just use that drive as extra storage.

freedomben 3y ago
Windows does that to me every few years when I try it. Something in getting set up (forced Microsoft account, aggressively pushing Edge, forced updates that reboot my machine) that makes me bail. Now that I don't work for a company that uses Zoom, there's nothing for which I need Windows at the moment.
wharvle 3y ago
Most of the people I know who run Windows personally (not at/for work) either do it only because gaming's easiest/best there, or because it's easy to get free or extremely-cheap used Windows machines that'll hold up for a year or so (then get another when they break) [EDIT] And actually that last category's a single person I know who's a writer, so wants a laptop with a keyboard but only uses an old word processor on it, and email, nothing else. Exceptions are my relatives over age 60, who barely do anything with their computers and should probably just have Chromebooks or iPads + keyboard (god, they could really use the accessibility features...), but are used to computer = walk into Costco or Best Buy and buy a desktop tower. Most non-gamers who also aren't computer nerds, whom I know, "compute" mainly on their phone anyway. Shit, so do I, and I'm both of those—my Windows machine is just for gaming, nothing else whatsoever. 95+% of everything important that needs some kind of computer, happens on my phone. I bought my last house on it, entirely, LOL.
- JoeAltmaier 3y ago

bluecalm 3y ago

If Windows 8 broke you Windows 11 is going to to make you wish you stayed broken. They got rid of a lot of nice things in the UI like ability to move the toolbar (what Microsoft calls taskbar) to the right (hiding it completely would be nice but of course you can't have that without unreliable 3rd party scripts), shoved MS account through users' throat, introduced "lock screen" mess which you can't disable while breaking on battery behavior. In my case it made my laptop completely unusable on battery as I either need to type my password 30 times an hour and/or deal with screen going dark because of "inactivity". No matter how many settings I disabled the behavior is still there. It's widely reported on the Internet but pleas to Microsoft to just let us use our computer in peace by disabling lock screen and screen dimming are unanswered. So now Windows forces you to use Microsoft account, shoves ads and crapware into your face (even in "pro" version), makes significant part of your vertical screen real estate unusable because of popping up toolbar like in good old days of internet browsers, makes using laptops on battery a mess. They removed a lot more options to tweak the UI. It's just full on assault on usability. It really does seem like they want to get rid of power users so they can continue shoving more ads and dark patterns on remaining ones. Like those Nigerian Prince scammers who make glaring grammar errors in their emails so people with any kind of critical thinking skills won't bother them responding. If you wonder why I upgraded - I really didn't want to but at some point they must've sneaked a dialog somewhere where I had a habit of clicking through and to my surprise it was Windows 11 from now on. I resisted for a long time but they have won.

ToucanLoucan 3y ago
Not trying to negate your experience as all that's pretty awful, but I purchased my Windows 11 legally of course, and then immediately used modified/pirated install media to install it: - Without a Microsoft account - With telemetry disabled (as much as is possible anyway) I haven't seen any ads in the OS... maybe a OneDrive one? I have no idea what you're talking about with a toolbar though, the only thing of size that pops up on mine is the start menu. Unless that's the new search thing I disabled. I dunno. On balance, I LOVED Windows 7, Windows 8 was a mess, Windows 10 was... more or less just 7 with an uglier and more confusing interface, and if anything, 11 is a step back towards 7 in my mind, both in aesthetics and usability. Though I was also never one for the side taskbar, so if that's your bag, I can absolutely see you not enjoying it being gone. Other positives: - They're finally reunifying settings into a single interface, hopefully they finish this time before starting a new one - New display configuration options are much more sanely organized - I've had just, WAY fewer issues with drivers in general Some negs: - Audio settings are now in five places, any of which can and can not apply to whatever you're doing, seemingly on the fly - They replaced the context menu with a different context menu that's only slightly different and instead of just carrying over old options with some sensible defaults, hid them in a sub-context context menu which just... ugh MacOS is still bae though. And that's probably why I like 11 okay is because it feels distinctly like Microsoft chasing Apple with regard to OS design. But as someone who would definitely consider myself a power user, I have no issues using 11. It's an improvement on 10, IMO, which was a distinct downgrade from 7 but itself was a massive upgrade from the train-wreck that was 8, so overall the trajectory is acceptable.

novagameco 3y ago

I'm a software engineer who chooses to use Windows. I grew up a windows user. I downloaded the Windows 7 Beta when I was 12 years old (and still think it's the best UI any OS has ever had). When I was in college I used Linux more, but found that the only reason I used it was as glorified desktop customization software. All of my assignments were in Java and my personal projects were in C. I switched to a chromebook halfway through college and did all my assignments by SSHing into a rented VPS running Ubuntu. After college I finally got some money and bought some used thinkpads, which I ran Windows on. My first job out of college we had macbook pros, and I hated those frickin things. The UI was so opinionated and slow with all of its animations. There was no way to disable the paneled desktops and there was no built in package manager or tiling window manager. Their bash version (this was pre-zsh) was an ancient build from 2007 and their coreutils lacked all the neat GNU extensions features (I recommend anybody who uses a macbook immediately install coreutils from homebrew and also upgrade bash). I had a million things I hated about macOS and still do. Other companies let me choose between a mac and a PC, and I went with PC. My current company gave me a Macbook pro and I haven't turned the thing on in a year. I use my desktop PC for everything. I like powershell, Windows Terminal, Winget/Chocolatey, vcpkg, Visual Studio, and MSVC language features like SAL. DirectX11 blows OpenGL out of the water in terms of syntax without getting as complicated as Vulkan. I prefer the Win32 API Convention of initializing things with structs and getting more descriptive return types to Linux's everything-is-an-int. I don't mind the Windows 11 UI as much as I thought I would but still sometimes customize my taskbar to look like Windows 7 (but it's just not the same). tl;dr: I like windows, and not because I'm a captive user

freedomben 3y ago
I grew up on Windows as well, starting with Win 3.0. I switched fully to Linux in 2010, but have still usually had at least one Windows machine in my life. Windows is really pretty damn good, and if they would just stop trying to force things on users (MS accounts, Edge browser, etc) and stop trying to further monetize the system (ads), it would be a really compelling option. I spent a total of 24 months on macs, and like you, when your preferred workflow doesn't match Apple's opinion of the correct way, macOS is like cement blocks around your ankles.

asdajksah2123 3y ago

I have been primarily a Mac user, but Windows 7 was pretty good. Windows 8 was awful and I refused to use it. However, Windows 10 was really good relative to Windows 8 primarily because it continued some of the good underlying tech Windows 8 brought with it, but was an acknowledgement by MS that the UI/UX needed to be user focused. It wasn't completely there...for example, the Candy Crush ads were still there in the start menu, but the direction relative to 8 was good. However, Windows 11 (and moreso Edge) shows that MS never really had that realization and continues to see their software not as tools for the users to use to simplify and improve their lives but as "products" to be used exactly as MS wants us to use it. My disillusionment with macOS also lies with this attitude. For me, Linux is the only desktop OS to be used by choice anymore.

TheCoelacanth 3y ago
MS doesn't think their software is tools for their users to use; they think their users are tools for their software to use.
xtracto 3y ago
Windows 7 UI was great. And I'm someone who has used Win since 3.1 days. I wish microsoft maintained a version of windows "professional " without all the 10,11 crap/adware and with win7 ui. Even if it costs more

dgellow 3y ago

Windows is basically everywhere outside of the US and maybe some select european countries. Windows improved a lot in some ways, the default experience is for sure way better than windows 8, though you still have to disable a good amount of annoying features if you don’t want ads. WSL is great if you have enough RAM, you can now rely on winget to setup your applications, OneDrive is reliable, the Microsoft Store is finally useful with Win32 applications (even SysInternal is now distributed via the store!). The settings panel finally makes sense, though not everything has been migrated yet. Windows updates are way more reliable. Windows PowerToys provides almost everything power users may need. The updated windows management is just awesome, simple to use and provides a good amount of options. Notepad is now a real text editor, the screenshot tool supports recording too, Edge competes with other modern browsers and has some unique features such as windows splitting. That’s just a subsets of some things that improved, there is way more. But it is fundamentally still Windows, it’s just way more polished.

Zardoz84 3y ago

Windows 10/11 has become far worse that Windows 8. The last really nice Windows was 7 . And Windows 8.1 wasn't bad (if you use it on a tablet pc)

osigurdson 3y ago

Windows 11 is an improvement in my opinion. But then again I generally like macOS. Agree, the touch focus of Windows 8 was a terrible misstep.

mihaaly 3y ago

I desire leaving Windows behind but the job opportunities in my line of work are pretty much reliant on the Microsoft Universe. The changes (no one dare to call those things improvements in front of me, do not dare!) are done to the system makes the usage more and more difficult and unpredictable, destroying essential and reliable features for the sake of never missed decorated obstructions. I hate it and feel disgust every morning when I have to turn it on, disgusted of all the many of the workarounds that I have to carry out daily to get the work done, reluctant and afraid of any and every updates, 'damn, here we go again, what will break now?!' or 'how can I serve its Royal Majestry the Windows System more to keep it operational and its brand new needs satisfied, how much should I adopt to their royal quirks?!'. Difficult to change line of work after so many years but I am pushed in this direction pretty strongly. (The OSX mentality was a friendly one to me when we first met and luckily its changes are slower in diminishing usability - they try though, they try persistently! - so my private computer is not a Windows one for about 20 years already. Probably it was Linux now otherwise, quite possibly.)

sinkasapa 3y ago

In Ecuador a new mac is way too expensive for most people. The availability of used ones are low. I imagine this is because people can't afford them new so they don't have any to resell. Computer literacy is such that most people don't know about linux. When I'm down there doing research and have participants using linux no one seems confused by it. I think for most people I meet, it is just a question of having linux already on the computer. Everyone pirates the os so the quetion of paying never comes up. As far as I can tell, this is pretty typical in a number of Latin American countries and probably common in most of the world where macs are luxury items.

osigurdson 3y ago

Kids like Windows because it is best for games. If Windows continues to be the best platform for games it will probably be fine.

fsflover 3y ago
Kids use whatever parents install for them.
- autoexec 3y ago
  Most kids don't even have a desktop, just a cell phone.

gspencley 3y ago

Out of curiosity what part of the world do you live in? I currently work remotely for a company that is head-quartered in California. The company issues MacBooks unless you ask for a Windows laptop. Most of my co-workers in California grew up using Macs and love them. Whereas it seems that, for some reason, the majority of the non-Californian employees grew up using Windows. My current manager came from Microsoft and was the one that pointed this out to me (because, like you, I also have always hated MacOS ... before our company started issuing Windows laptops to those who request them I tried really hard to get used to it and just couldn't). My manager's claim, though I'm not sure how accurate it is, is that Apple seems to have a cultural hold within California, with lots of businesses using them as well as consumers ... but outside of the state Microsoft has the hold. Again, it's a hypothesis, I don't know if there's any validity to it ... but I'm curious if there could be some truth to it.

qwytw 3y ago
IIRC Apple was donating lots of Apple IIs to schools in California in the 80s and then still maintained a disproportionately (compared to other states) high market share in the educational market in the 90s and 2000s. This presumably had a multi-generational effect as people graduating from those schools were more likely to buy Macs and then children growing up in those households were more used to them than Windows PCs etc.
freedomben 3y ago
I think that hypothesis is correct, and has spread to tech startups in general (primarily web-based tech startups). I have never lived in California but have many other places around the country, and with many different companies, and that is definitely in-line with what I've seen as well. The other factor (related somewhat but not completely) I think is that Apple has become a status symbol. People who chose Windows were rare, and got lots of shit for picking Windows. The peer pressure made the majority of people either stick with macOS even if they didn't like it, or switch at the refresh cycle (and make sure to announce that was their intention anytime they got shit for having a windows laptop). Usually I was the only one on Linux, and there'd be one other person on Windows who didn't care about the pressue, but 99% of everybody would go with the flow.

trelane 3y ago

I have to wonder if AI is going to cause more interest in user privacy. It's been an issue with ad business models and AFAICT Microsoft also reserves the right to use your personal info to "improve and develop [their] products."[1] [1] https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-us/privacystatement https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-us/privacystatement

freedomben 3y ago
Doubtful. As a privacy advocate of 15+ years, pretty much nobody cares about privacy. When you describe to them in detail how invasive their Amazon products and twitter/facebook are, they get very uncomfortable and don't like it, but they just continue to buy/use those products so it really doesn't matter. I've had people (not on HN but fairly tech literate) say they use Apple for privacy reasons but then had major misunderstandings about that (i.e. they assumed that an app on the app store must be privacy respecting because Apple reviews them, or that Apple themselves don't collect lots of first-party data, etc). So I doubt AI is going to make a big difference.

ismailmaj 3y ago

What's preventing me from going all in to Linux desktop is software only available in windows and HDR, it seems KDE plasma 6 is going to ship HDR this year, so it might be just enough for me to not care about the rest.

chung8123 3y ago

I am in a similar situation. Worked at Microsoft, left, stuck with Windows through 10, now am a mix of MacOS and Linux. I hated MacOS, and still do mainly because of the Window management, but after using it for work and the hardware being so much better for me than anything I could find PC I finally switched. My desktop is still Linux. Most of the people I know switched to Mac which is how I know I am in a bubble.

randomdata 3y ago

> when I see a survey like this saying that 72% of users still use Windows I'm shocked to my core. Of course, that's a worldwide figure. The regional breakdown will likely show you prevalence more in line with your expectations. Only 62% in the USA, for example.

emeril 3y ago

I'm not really a dev so I've made an art of going through all the minutiae of changing the terrible default GUI back to windows xp or so which makes it a decent consistent experience (mostly open shell + 7+ Taskbar Tweaker + manually recreate quicklaunch + remove all pinned apps) Then I spend some time disabling ALL of the updates as they generally do more harm than good Then I make sure to install directory opus... Then windows isn't too bad especially when I have no choice but to use it for my work (whereas all of my colleagues have constant problems with borked updates and inconsistent interfaces) to be fair, I bought a laptop with windows 8 ten years ago and I immediately formatted it and manually installed windows 7 on it though it was a tad tough to find drivers as it was a cheapo consumer laptop)

rldjbpin 3y ago

you might be right, but don't give too much credit to how representative the survey correspondants are. i am from the opposite camp: my first personal computer (not the family one) came with Ubuntu because the SKU was too cheap to come with windows (back when it would've instead shipped with FreeDOS or something). i've seen the pain in using windows 8 in another computer in the family. but then i also faced much more nightmare scenario with linux (as someone not very technically inclined at the time): from wifi/bt chip not working to zero video out in a hybrid-graphics laptop. but after toiling through forums (and learning a lot about managing computers), i also managed to get my parents on using ubuntu for their daily tasks. i was not too concerned about edge cases as i had to step in for IT support regardless of the os. i personally switched back to windows after trying for 5+ years because everything i needed to do "just worked". i cannot say it for an average grandma, but this audience could easily work around the recent privacy bs microsoft has put out. compared to the gymnastics i needed to do in linux, i'd say it is much less of a trivial task, but you sometimes need to keep up with it through subsequent windows updates. i recently bit the bullet and switched to windows 11. i am unable to use wsl2 or any virtualization because it breaks the ability to undervolt a laptop cpu. combined with recent ml libraries refusing to properly support windows and cater more to people using google colab, i might finally be nudged back to trying out linux, but i am on the fence.

Gow8876 3y ago

Some industry use Windows only (or near 90% similar to creative people using Mac only). For example facilities, controls and uncle Sam. You are in a bubble. Try joining yoga or church. You will know many still use Windows.

keepamovin 3y ago
Totes agree! Sorry for bumping your comments, but you look like an interesting new one here. WINDOWS FTW!