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The Subscription Trap

• ksdnjweusdnkl21 3y ago
  It's technically easy to not charge/cancel the user if they haven't used the services. But it's impossible to convince the product and business leads this is the correct thing to do. You will quickly get the "industry standard" response. It's demoralizing working on the subscription feature since it's filled with dark patterns.
  • bombela 3y ago
    Pay per use with a rate lowering proportional to the increase in usage would feel quite fair. But it seems that a bit of ethic would kill the greedy.
    • hn_version_0023 3y ago
      We’d be better off without the greedy, and this method seems a lot more humane than a literal purge.
  • atticora 3y ago
    > It's demoralizing working on the subscription feature. Agree. I loathe subscriptions and avoid them like Covid. But the code I write for the publishing industry is out there day and night, across continents, pitching subscriptions to readers thousands of times per minute. Begging them to renew for this limited time offer, prodding them through the checkout process. It's not like a pacifist writing missile guidance software, but it's sad that this is where the money is.
    • IggleSniggle 3y ago
      You could always work in advertising instead
      • yetanother12345 3y ago
        I'd suggest the GP is indeed working in advertising pitching subscriptions to readers thousands of times per minute. Begging them to renew for this limited time offer, prodding them through the checkout process. (but shh... please don't tell)
        • IggleSniggle 3y ago
          This made me literally lol. Still. At the end of the day, if you've tried to get paid for a service or product you provide, to some degree you work in advertising.
  • jrmg 3y ago
    That’s an interesting idea. I wonder if, for some services, the outcome for the supplier would be better. I think I’d be likely to subscribe to more TV services if they only charged me on months I used them. I’d feel I could just let them sit dormant in months they had no shows I wanted to watch, but I think I’d use them without much hesitation when some new show I was interested in became available.
    • jader201 3y ago
      From a consumer standpoint, 100% agree with you. From a provider standpoint, I’m guessing they would lose more revenue from existing subscribers not using it vs. what they’d gain from new (often dormant) subscribers.
      • IggleSniggle 3y ago
        It's a great model for any younger, relatively unknown provider for this reason. Although, the $9/mo Netflix subscription (I can't remember the actual price point, but it worked out if you watched more than 2 movies in a month) totally beat the pants off the Blockerbuster late fees / missing title fees on a $1/film/day pay-as-you-go model, from a consumer standpoint.
      • marcosdumay 3y ago
        I wonder how many dormant subscribers those services have. I find it hard to believe that they'll have many. They are not like a gym where it's work to use. Instead, they are exactly the opposite.
  • jonhohle 3y ago
    There’s a sneaky reason to suspend their service if they’re not using it: to capture some revenue by avoiding chargebacks or refunds for the entire idle period. If they fees stop getting charged, past periods are likely not going to be audited and are at less risk of claw back. Obviously, this itself is a dark pattern masquerading as beneficial to customers.
  • deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  • jacobkg 3y ago
    The one service I have that works this way is AT&T mobile International Calling and Data. I pay $10 USD for any day that I use the service outside the US and Canada. It is always “on” so I don’t have to worry about enabling it before trips or canceling it when trips end. I agree it would be great if more services were like this.
    • devilbunny 3y ago
      This is a tangent, but I would bet that your AT&T service also covers Mexico without the $10/day fee. My wife's does, as does my Verizon. Note: AT&T didn't have a partner in Morocco on the $10/day plan when I was there in 2019, but VZW did. Do check which countries are covered.
      • jacobkg 3y ago
        Ah yes it does. Which I guess is another benefit of this setup. I don’t need to know which countries are included with the base plan as they only charge extra for the countries that aren’t
  • makeitdouble 3y ago
    This is an interesting idea but would need deeper adjustements on what the user is paying for. For instance Netflix charges you for the next month you'll be using it. So at the time of charge, it has no idea if you'll use the service within the month or not, thus only the "cancel" part could happen. Moving to a post-usage payment can be done, but it becomes weird when the payment doesn't go through and quickly transforms into an open door for fraudulent activity. Auto-canceling could be the best option, yet it would be an issue if the user actually expected to use the service the next month. They can still resubscribe again before using it again, but that's an extra step and also means the billing date gets reset, which might not desired by the user depending on how they manage their budget. Basically, it's looks like a simple enough idea but the devil's in the details and it requires a decent amount of work to come out with something both the service and the user can easily understand and manage efficiently.
    • BobaFloutist 3y ago
      I mean we could give them a "free" month as on off ramp, pay exactly the same as we do today but if you don't use it for a full month it gets paused, and that would still be dramatically better for consumers than the status quo.
      • makeitdouble 3y ago
        You seem to be describing something like a credit system ? It would be weird to get billed for December on a service because you used it a few times in November; that can be explained, but with enough time between the use and the billing it would easily look like a fraudulent charge to the user, and if they decide to cancel it at that time, they'll still be stuck for a full month. That could make more sense if you're burning through "coins" and need to purchase new ones once you don't have any. Come to think of it, mobile data billing system would also be close to that, except mobile ISPs can afford to require KYC documents up to a legal ID which drastically reduces the potential for fraud.
        • BobaFloutist 3y ago
  • jonathankoren 3y ago
    That’s because subscriptions aren’t about providing a product, it’s about creating stable cash flow. Literally every subscription product could be charged on a per item basis, but they don’t because they want to create stable cash flow. Subscriptions are just the gym membership model, where they hope people forget about it. Or when it comes to SaaS, the ransomware model. (“Those are some fine files you got there. It would be a shame if anything happened to them.”)
  • paxys 3y ago
    Slack does exactly this, but then it makes business sense for both parties because they can tell a company "buy licenses for all your employees, but don't worry we won't charge you if they send less than N messages a month". When dealing with individual consumers the service doesn't really have any incentive not to charge you.
• dangus 3y ago
  I know the article didn’t intend to come across this way, but I couldn’t help feeling like this article is a little bit condescending to the customer. Is it accusing the common person of being unable to evaluate whether something has value to them? I think all of us know the dynamics of subscriptions and are relatively clear-eyed about their value. Just ask the average person how they feel about price increases at Netflix and Disney+ and you’ll hear very reasonable arguments being made. The author seems to believe that the vendor wanting your money and getting it from you is a big trick and a scam. Or, we can call it an exchange of goods and services. Then the article turns toward time-productivity guilt tripping. “If you like watching TV you’re wasting your life.” Maybe we should be upskilling and side hustling instead! Or, perhaps now is the time to point out the vast selection of activities and hobbies that cost way more money than most subscription services. And, yes, a lot of consumer subscriptions feel cheap because they are cheap. You can’t even get out of a grocery store one time for less than $50 these days, so spending $50-100 for an entire year of something does look petty darn good in comparison.
  • coldtea 3y ago
    >Is it accusing the common person of being unable to evaluate whether something has value to them? I think all of us know the dynamics of subscriptions and are relatively clear-eyed about their value. The self-dellusion about the above is how subscriptions, advertising, and all kinds of BS snakeoil get people.
    • dangus 3y ago
      How cynical. Is it really hard to imagine a subscription service with an ROI? This is exactly what I didn’t like about the article: it seems to universally categorize all subscriptions to be toxic time-wasters, but really they come in all shapes and sizes. It’s pretty snobby to say that anyone with a subscription is in a state of self-delusion.
      • coldtea 3y ago
        >How cynical. Is it really hard to imagine a subscription service with an ROI? No, just like it's not hard to imagine a business proposition via email from a Nigerian mogul that's valid. But most will not be, and the whole model has expanded like cancer to leverage customer lock-in and lack of no-subscription alternatives (because of cartel-like behavior from the big players).
• bachmeier 3y ago
  > Subscriptions are cheap on the face value. I always evaluate subscriptions based on their cost over five years, since that's a reasonable amount of time to use services and products. In other words, the opportunity cost of a $5/month subscription is a $300 pressure washer or $300 worth of shirts. I don't get the subscription unless I'd be willing to pay the full $300 right now.
• MandieD 3y ago
  How I try to approach any new subscription or habit: what would it cost (within an order of magnitude) to fund this expense for the rest of my life - how much would I need in savings to keep this up? I multiply annual amount by 25, any monthly amount by 300 (12 months times 25, assuming 4% long term investment returns). I know that’s only a very rough approximation, but it gives me a longer term way to think about that “oh, it’s just two fancy coffees each month!” 10 EUR/month? 3000 EUR purchase. Given how subscription prices have increased well beyond inflation, I should perhaps change that multiplier to 400 or 500…
  • paxys 3y ago
    I'm curious what purchases you can even justify with this mental model. Is a $50 dinner at a restaurant once a week worth it (60K+ USD over your lifetime)? What about a night at the movies with the family (easily 50K-100K+ total)? The two fancy coffees you mention are themselves multiple thousands worth.
    • cxr 3y ago
      > Is a $50 dinner at a restaurant once a week worth it The obvious answer is "no". You seem to have something else in mind.
      • paxys 3y ago
        The question is what is a yes? If Netflix is too wasteful and a restaurant visit is too wasteful and a cocktail is too wasteful and a cup of coffee is too wasteful then what exactly are you okay spending on? And if your spending model is "never spend any money under any circumstances" then what even is the point of it?
        • cxr 3y ago
          If I had an answer to that question for you, I would have responded to it. I didn't. I responded to the question you asked that I did have an answer for.
        • 3y ago
• at_a_remove 3y ago
  I got a separate credit card and have been slowly pushing my subscriptions to it.
• gofast 3y ago
  [dead]
• Cupprum 3y ago
  The only subscription i have (except for energies and flat which are basically subscriptions as well) is for my choice of music. Because of the convenience factor. What would be an alternative? Buying albums? I am not familiar with any nice platforms for this.
  • dinvlad 3y ago
    Bandcamp, for example (and there are a few smaller ones like it). It will be more expensive than streaming subscriptions, but knowing how poorly artists get compensated by these (and how the payout per stream further dilutes over time), makes one see the whole streaming model as corrupt. It led to artificially lowered expectations on what music should cost among the general public, and now of course it has become very hard to compete with the streaming platforms because of this altered consumer behavior.
    • Cupprum 3y ago
      Do you personally use bandcamp? Do you really own the album once you buy it? Can you download the music if bandcamp would cease to exist?
      • quora 3y ago
        I don't think so no. I've had some artists delete albums i've purchased and then been unable to redownload them.
        • dinvlad 3y ago
          This is a bummer! But it highlights more of an unfortunate reality we all have to deal with when buying digital goods online - always need to get a backup right away when possible, since no platform lasts forever.
      • dinvlad 3y ago
        Yes; not a lawyer, but as far as I can tell yes (and physical media too); you can, in advance (which I do), in any format you want without restriction - it’s just FLAC/MP3 etc. No DRM. I do prefer buying full digital discography when available, because it’s such a good deal. For $30 or so, I get years and years of albums, while still supporting an artist with a much larger sum than I could via a streaming platform. Admittedly, I’m still also using YT Music precisely for the reason I described above, and also because it makes it much easier to discover new music, compared to Bandcamp (something I’m hoping to potentially address in my own alternative).
• gnicholas 3y ago
  Anyone have tips on how to convince family members to ditch streaming services? I feel like a boiled frog over here, with Netflix, Disney+, and Amazon Prime. I’d be happy to ditch any of these for 6 months at a time, but can’t get buy-in. Would love to know if others have faced similar challenges (and what has worked for them).
  • alphabettsy 3y ago
    Why do you want to convince them? Is it because you pay for it? If they use the services regularly then you’re fighting a losing battle.
    • gnicholas 3y ago
      It’s partly because of the cost, but partly because I don’t think the kids should get accustomed to always having everything at their fingertips, paid for up-front. I would rather they get used to dealing with tradeoffs, and understanding that there is a cost to these services. They do use the services regularly, but it’s not clear why they couldn’t shift behavior to use just two at a time, for example.
      • samtho 3y ago
        This is a loosing battle and a dying mentality. By enforcing values they may not agree with, you run the risk of alienating yourself from your family. Why not find other activities you can enjoy with your family instead of trying to limit something that is inexpensive and not harmful in the long run?
        • gnicholas 3y ago
          We do have plenty of other activities, which is part of the reason it would make sense to pay less for streaming services that we use periodically. What makes you say this will alienate the family? Should I give up whenever my values for raising my children are not 100% endorsed by others?
• qrohlf 3y ago
  > renew it and cancel it immediately This is the way I use most subscription products. There are a lot of pieces of software that I think do actually make sense to charge a subscription for rather than a one-time payment; almost all the software I use daily in 2023 has some kind of server-side component or ongoing maintenance/development costs and I don't mind paying for that. It's the auto-renewal aspect and all the dark patterns associated with cancellation that I really despise. One thing that I do now is try to use iOS to initiate subscriptions as much as possible, since the Apple-mandated subscription mechanism there lets me easily and immediately cancel auto-renewals for a new subscription as soon as I sign up for it. I don't love that the walled garden approach seems to be the only way to restore sanity here and would love to see something standards-track and cross platform emerge for signing up for, listing, and cancelling software subscriptions in one place as part of the functionality provided by your OS. Basically, "passkeys for subscriptions". Maybe someday!
  • paulpauper 3y ago
    subscribe, download the archives, and then cancel
• l3x4ur1n 3y ago
  Is this a problem for people? Like, do they not know how much they pay for subscriptions? I have detailed knowledge of every service I pay for and I seriously don't understand the issue.
  • loloquwowndueo 3y ago
    You’re probably more conscious and organized than the majority of people.
  • metabagel 3y ago
    This feels like a humble brag. Yes, lots of people don’t track their money that well. There’s an industry devoted to helping people do better at tracking their money. One of the problems is that subscriptions aren’t consolidated. You might subscribe to streaming services individually or through a third party, such as Roku or Apple. And then of course, there are other types of subscriptions, such as music, news, patreon, recurring political contributions, and substack. Another issue is that you might subscribe to a service which you are excited about, but you don’t actually end up using it, and you forget about it entirely. And probably the main problem is that a lot of people don’t review their credit card statements rigorously.
    • l3x4ur1n 3y ago
      Ah, I see. I didn't want to brag, if that's how it felt. When I was at a low point in life, I learned to monitor all my expenses and keep money on short leash. I can understand someone who never had to deal with that kind of situation never learned the skill and might have problems with keeping track of subscriptions. Thank you for the elaboration.
  • crimsontech 3y ago
    > I seriously don't understand the issue. You don't understand it because it doesn't impact you? I keep an eye on my subscriptions too, mainly because my banking app automatically categorises outgoings so they are easy to keep track of. It is easy for subscriptions to pile up though, at one point last year I had three subscriptions to different on-demand training and book repositories. I realised I hadn't used them for three months and cancelled them all. Many gyms relie on subscribers not using the facilities, they are commonly oversubscribed. Cancelling something like a gym subscription, or a meditation app has some amount of guilt associated with it too, like you failed to achieve what you imagined when you first signed up.
• alphabettsy 3y ago
  I use Privacy.com because it allows me to lock or limit the card and use a unique one for each site or service. Has been working well for the last few years.
  • Cupprum 3y ago
    Many banks provide this feature out of the box no?
    • jonathankoren 3y ago
      Yup. I’m pretty sure, he’s paying a middle man to just do what his bank will do for free.
      • alphabettsy 3y ago
        I don’t know if you intended to sound condescending, but you come across that way. It’s not offered by my bank and I have very good reasons for not switching.
    • alphabettsy 3y ago
      Mine doesn’t. I’m not aware of any major banks that do in the US actually.
      • gnicholas 3y ago
        Apparently Capital One does: https://www.capitalone.com/learn-grow/money-management/mobile-app-digital-tools/ https://www.capitalone.com/learn-grow/money-management/mobil...
• daoudc 3y ago
  Here's an alternative for streaming services that I've been trying out: buy second hand DVDs, rip them, then serve them with Plex. You can get 5 DVDs for £10 which is more than I can watch in a month, and less than I'd pay for Netflix, and the choice is huge, even if I restrict myself to these cheap ones.
  • trevyn 3y ago
    Let me guess, you have also sworn fealty to your Lord and Master the King?
• paxys 3y ago
  Meh. The answer to the "subscription trap", much like every other money problem, is simply – create a budget and stick to it. I genuinely don't consider dropping $15/mo on Netflix and another $10 on HBO a problem because I get an incredible amount of value from them. I am also not going around subscribing to ten more useless services every day. And if I do pay for something but feel like I don't need it any longer I hit the cancel button. It's really not that difficult of a process to manage. Blaming subscription services for your high credit card bills is like buying too many designer shoes and blaming the shoe store. Maybe it's instead time to acknowledge that you have a spending problem.
• irrational 3y ago
  I’m not sure if I have any subscriptions or not. I don’t subscribe to Netflix or Spotify or the like. But isn’t my internet bill, cell phone bill, my water bill, my electric bill, etc. basically a subscription?
  • neogodless 3y ago
    Tend to be called utilities. Recurring bills regardless. Internet shifted from being an entertainment subscription to more of a utility.
  • paulryanrogers 3y ago
    By some definitions, yes. Utilities though are usually paid based on usage whereas many luxury services are paid ahead of time and regardless of use.
• andsoitis 3y ago
  > causes you to spend more time scrolling than actually watching content. This is not actually true. While scrolling to find something to watch is frustrating, people have a low tolerance for it and so switch to another service, continue with something that they have been watching anyway, or decide to entertain themselves in some other way.
• deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
• nonrandomstring 3y ago
  Subscription is a trap for the company not the customer, Subscriptions are a "convenient" (whenever you hear that word run for the hills) way to receive payment. So what happens? It becomes the only way to take payment, because companies are fooled into seeing other methods as "too expensive to process" and not worth accepting. They prioritise subscriptions over individual sales. For example, I will most always give to charity on the spur of the moment. I am ready to put my hand in my pocket for a childrens' charity, veterans' fund, cancer research or whatever. That rarely happens now, because nobody will take money. Main charities are not at all interested in that, they want to get people hooked into a subscription contract. I will beg the collector to take a handful of cash coins or a note, but they say "sorry we can't handle cash". That's insanity on a stick, right there. They don't want £5. They want £5 per month. And I will not do that on principle, for all the good reasons given in TFA, plus some others. One strong objection I have is that subscriptions involve a bank, and the banking industry is a hive of unethical scumbags. If I want to give to charity that's a transaction solely between me and the charity, not some data collecting parasites. So they end up getting nothing, because they want too much. That's a genuine tragedy, so sad, because whatever apologetics fanboys of the "convenient, cashless society" spout, at the end of the day it's a clear triumph of stupidity, greed and laziness over common sense. I am sure subscriptions harm many other businesses in the same way as charities.
• dave333 3y ago
  Subscriptions as entertainment are usually good value compared with going to a movie theater or show or especially a concert or sporting event. So there is economy built in. If the monthly budget needs tightening a la Sense and Sensibility then maybe limit subscriptions to one per category - one streaming service, one newspaper subscription and so on. Amazon Prime is a cross-category value that checks a lot of boxes at once. I subscribe to several things but I would never ever consider paying Starbucks prices for something I can brew at home for 35 cents.