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America Is a Republic, Not a Democracy Is a Dangerous and Wrong Argument (2020)

23 points by clouddrover 3y ago

PM_me_your_math 3y ago
[dead]
cranberryturkey 3y ago
why?
- krapp 3y ago
  You'll find the title is actually a link which, if you click it, leads to an article in which the author presents an argument which answers your question.
  - shrimp_emoji 3y ago
    [flagged]
  - PM_me_your_math 3y ago
    [dead]
- nihonthrowaway 3y ago
  It's dangerous, because many immigrants reflexively vote for the Democratic party because "America is a Democracy" Mentioning that "America is a Republic" may cost votes.
  - dirtyhippiefree 3y ago
    Especially ironic in an age where the platform increasingly matters less than the personality. It’s a situation where “the party can catch up.”
  - laidoffamazon 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - decremental 3y ago
      [dead]
shrimp_emoji 3y ago
Originally, the Senate was the "republican" half of Congress, whose members (senators) were chosen by the state legislature instead of elected directly and weren't numbered by state population. The House of Representatives was the "democratic" half, whose members (representatives) were elected directly. This was supposed to strike some balance between "mob rule" and perhaps more "enlightened republicanism". The 17th Amendment made the Senate almost as democratic as the House, with senators directly elected too: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventeenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventeenth_Amendment_to_the... (It retains some republicanism in that senators are still not numbered by state population and have longer terms than representatives.) So the trend is that the republic's been getting more democratic.
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  > Originally, the Senate was the "republican" half of Congress > The House of Representatives was the "democratic" half These are both wrong. “Democratic” and “Republican” aren’t conflicting goals; the US isn’t a democratic republic because it has separate sets of democratic and republican institutions. It’s republican in that state office and political power are not private property the way they are in a monarchy, and its democratic in that the power of the government derives in theory from the consebt of thr governed, and because it has formal electoral institutions designed, loosely, to align those things in practice. It is true that it is imperfectly democratic, and that this represents a compromise, but that's a compromise with being a federation of states, not with being a Republic. Its a federal democratic republic, where the first two (not the last two) are in tension. > The 17th Amendment made the Senate almost as democratic as the House Nowhere close. It made the Senate directly elected, but havigb officers directly elected vs appointed by another institution which is denocratically accountable doesn't make a body particularly more democratic, when the main reason it is imperfectly democratic is unequal (in reperesebted population) apportionment, which is not changed. > It retains some republicanism in that senators are still not numbered by state population and have longer terms than representatives Neither of those are “republican” features, and only the first reflects the federal vs democratic character of government. The staggering of terms between House, President. and Senate makes it less likely that a transitory change of popular mood causes a complete change of government, but that's neither republican nor federal more than democratic. Its a feature on a whole different axis.
egberts1 3y ago
Presidential Federal Constitutional Republic, that United State government is.
babelthuap 3y ago
[dead]
photochemsyn 3y ago
The origin of this particular line of rhetoric? c. 1787: > "A republic, if you can keep it." - Benjamin Franklin's response to Elizabeth Willing Powel's question: "Well, Doctor, what have we got, a republic or a monarchy?"
mediumsmart 3y ago
Of course it’s a democracy, the best that money can buy.
orwin 3y ago
Wow. What the article call 'minority rule' doesn't mean it's not a democracy. In an indirect representative democracy, that happens. And being a democracy do not oppose it being a republic, I don't know who can seriously think that.
mitchbob 3y ago
https://archive.ph/2023.07.22-052941/https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/11/yes-constitution-democracy/616949/ https://archive.ph/2023.07.22-052941/https://www.theatlantic...
simonblack 3y ago
America is an oligarchy, the same as all other self-proclaimed 'democracies'. There is no such animal as a true 'democracy' anywhere in the world.

23 points by clouddrover 3y ago

PM_me_your_math 3y ago

[dead]

cranberryturkey 3y ago

why?

krapp 3y ago
You'll find the title is actually a link which, if you click it, leads to an article in which the author presents an argument which answers your question.
- shrimp_emoji 3y ago
  [flagged]
- PM_me_your_math 3y ago
  [dead]
nihonthrowaway 3y ago
It's dangerous, because many immigrants reflexively vote for the Democratic party because "America is a Democracy" Mentioning that "America is a Republic" may cost votes.
- dirtyhippiefree 3y ago
  Especially ironic in an age where the platform increasingly matters less than the personality. It’s a situation where “the party can catch up.”
- laidoffamazon 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - decremental 3y ago
    [dead]

shrimp_emoji 3y ago

Originally, the Senate was the "republican" half of Congress, whose members (senators) were chosen by the state legislature instead of elected directly and weren't numbered by state population. The House of Representatives was the "democratic" half, whose members (representatives) were elected directly. This was supposed to strike some balance between "mob rule" and perhaps more "enlightened republicanism". The 17th Amendment made the Senate almost as democratic as the House, with senators directly elected too: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventeenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventeenth_Amendment_to_the... (It retains some republicanism in that senators are still not numbered by state population and have longer terms than representatives.) So the trend is that the republic's been getting more democratic.

dragonwriter 3y ago
> Originally, the Senate was the "republican" half of Congress > The House of Representatives was the "democratic" half These are both wrong. “Democratic” and “Republican” aren’t conflicting goals; the US isn’t a democratic republic because it has separate sets of democratic and republican institutions. It’s republican in that state office and political power are not private property the way they are in a monarchy, and its democratic in that the power of the government derives in theory from the consebt of thr governed, and because it has formal electoral institutions designed, loosely, to align those things in practice. It is true that it is imperfectly democratic, and that this represents a compromise, but that's a compromise with being a federation of states, not with being a Republic. Its a federal democratic republic, where the first two (not the last two) are in tension. > The 17th Amendment made the Senate almost as democratic as the House Nowhere close. It made the Senate directly elected, but havigb officers directly elected vs appointed by another institution which is denocratically accountable doesn't make a body particularly more democratic, when the main reason it is imperfectly democratic is unequal (in reperesebted population) apportionment, which is not changed. > It retains some republicanism in that senators are still not numbered by state population and have longer terms than representatives Neither of those are “republican” features, and only the first reflects the federal vs democratic character of government. The staggering of terms between House, President. and Senate makes it less likely that a transitory change of popular mood causes a complete change of government, but that's neither republican nor federal more than democratic. Its a feature on a whole different axis.

egberts1 3y ago

Presidential Federal Constitutional Republic, that United State government is.

babelthuap 3y ago

[dead]

photochemsyn 3y ago

The origin of this particular line of rhetoric? c. 1787: > "A republic, if you can keep it." - Benjamin Franklin's response to Elizabeth Willing Powel's question: "Well, Doctor, what have we got, a republic or a monarchy?"

mediumsmart 3y ago

Of course it’s a democracy, the best that money can buy.

orwin 3y ago

Wow. What the article call 'minority rule' doesn't mean it's not a democracy. In an indirect representative democracy, that happens. And being a democracy do not oppose it being a republic, I don't know who can seriously think that.

mitchbob 3y ago

https://archive.ph/2023.07.22-052941/https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/11/yes-constitution-democracy/616949/ https://archive.ph/2023.07.22-052941/https://www.theatlantic...

simonblack 3y ago

America is an oligarchy, the same as all other self-proclaimed 'democracies'. There is no such animal as a true 'democracy' anywhere in the world.