5 ms·

On average they didn't (oh no, that repair costs more than the "car is worth" as if that's a metric that actually means anything) but it was far easier to keep

by edrxty 3y ago

On average they didn't (oh no, that repair costs more than the "car is worth" as if that's a metric that actually means anything) but it was far easier to keep one running indefinitely. You could take an engine to a small machine shop and get the head and block resurfaced, valves reamed and cylinders lapped. Without any electronics to fail it was just a block of metal that was slowly losing material and a quick hit with a file could even out any imperfections leaving it like new, just with very slightly more displacement. Modern engines are way more reliable because they have coatings and materials that will last nearly indefinitely in most parts of the engine but they're built on proprietary sensors and electronics that need a steady stream of replacements and secret software to debug. We could make cars last indefinitely from a supply chain perspective, but commoditizing software and electronics would make them very marginally more expensive. We absolutely can't have that because, drum roll for the 1000th time, 99% of the population doesn't give a flying fuck and wants cheap shit at all costs.

lawgimenez 3y ago
As someone who drives an “old” Honda 2006, I’m surprised that this machine is still running very good. I could just take it to my local shop and had it fixed in 1-2 days. Based on my logs, I took the car for repair on average of 3-4 times a year. I am looking to purchase a new family vehicle in the future but with all the softwares, screens, and fancy stuffs I am not sure if I liked it. Anyone feels this way?
- Baeocystin 3y ago
  I really wish there was a new car that I wanted to buy, because my 1998 Jeep isn't getting any younger. But holy crap is the modern car a dumpster fire of shit from a UI perspective. Although it looks like at least some manufacturers are starting to take note: https://futurism.com/the-byte/car-touchscreens-buttons-back https://futurism.com/the-byte/car-touchscreens-buttons-back
  - a_t48 3y ago
    My car has physical buttons for climate control, volume, lights, etc but also a nice sized touch screen for CarPlay. I got the last year before VW took away the steering wheel buttons with capacitive replacements, though it sounds like they too are waking that back.
  - lawgimenez 3y ago
    Yes that article sums up my feelings on the modern car. But my main concern are the repairs 5-10 years from now. It’s crazy to think that a car would be recalled by just some software glitch if that’s what I read is correct.
- dehrmann 3y ago
  > I’m surprised that this machine is still running very good I'm not. It's a Honda.
  - dl9999 3y ago
    This isn't specifically about Honda quality, but I think it's a nice Honda anecdote. My wife bought a used Accord before we got married. Eventually it died on the highway and we had it towed to the dealer. The engine needed to be replaced because of the failure of a part that had been recalled (when it was owned by the previous owner) had not been replaced. Since it was due to a recalled part, Honda replaced the engine for the price of the oil. We bought Hondas for the next 20 years after that. We still own a 2012 Accord that my son is running into the ground. Our current car is a Volvo, lots of nice features, but I think our next will be a Honda.
    - lawgimenez 3y ago
      The engine of my 2006 Honda hasn’t had any major issue besides from oil leaks, and busted air coolant pipes, etc., minor stuffs. I guess the most important stuff is that to have its yearly complete maintenance.
    - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
      My Acura (up line Honda) was nice, but Honda has been really slow with the EV transition, so I left them for my next car even though I liked their quality. Hopefully they make the EV transition eventually.
  - dahart 3y ago
    My 2017 CRV started bricking itself, of course right at the 5 year warranty mark. something was wrong somewhere and the electronics & sensor system didn’t know where so it was designed to shut all the electronic systems off, like cruise control, emergency braking, road departure mitigation, etc. etc.. about 20 different sub-systems, each one got it’s own separate loud annoying beep in succession every time the car started. We took it to the dealer many times, and they couldn’t figure out what was wrong either. That didn’t stop them from trying, by replacing whatever part was their best guess and charging us for the new one plus labor. During our final visit to the dealer, only a few blocks away, the car broke down. It limped, smoking, to the dealer where they found the AC compressed had seized causing the timing belt to melt, which then took out the alternator and several other components. After a $5,000 repair and assurances the problem must be fixed, we took it home and had a nice month’s worth of driving, and then it started bricking again. We couldn’t sell it fast enough, what a nightmare. To their partial credit, Honda later reimbursed half the repair cost, and the dealer admitted the vehicle failure was design flaws that were out of our control. We also found out after the repair that the AC compressor had been recalled, but unfortunately the new one didn’t fix the problem. Tl;dr I did before I bought it, but I personally no longer believe Honda to be more reliable than any other brand. One major problem across the industry now is that they know how to make good reliable engines and powertrains, but none of them are any good at computer software reliability, and computers have very suddenly taken over all critical systems in the car.
- mikrotikker 3y ago
  There's a few tricks to know for each model. I got a mid 2000s ford with a by all accounts unbreakable engine (600hp possible on stock internals) but the radiator and trans cooler is the same unit and often cracks pushing coolant into the trans. First thing i did to it was to buy an aftermarket external trans cooler for my specific model and install it.
- mlrtime 3y ago
  Repair 3-4 times a year or oil changes/consumables? How many miles does this honda have, age is not a good indicator over miles. If you are really having this car repaired 4 times a year for 18 years (72 repairs) this doesn't sound like a reliable machine. A modern Toyota or Honda can go many years with 0 repairs, just consumables.
  - lawgimenez 3y ago
    Most are not engine repairs, just some wear and tear on some parts. I live in Southeast Asia where roads are mostly shit.
MichaelZuo 3y ago
You can have that level of quality and care for the entire car, not just limited to the drivetrain and electronics, and it's probably even in a showroom right now waiting for buyers, just at your nearest Rolls Royce dealership.
- YouWhy 3y ago
  I would not expect RR to be particularly high quality, due to: 1. Small production batches, 2. Low typical usage - most RR owners do not use it to commute on a daily basis, hence do not face high reliability requirements, 3. The ability of the typical buyer to overspend on maintenance, whether preemptively or on-demand.
  - gocartStatue 3y ago
    Small production batches are absolutely required for high quality (see Toyota, TQM)
    - dehrmann 3y ago
      But there isn't enough overall volume to ever get the kinks worked out.
      - MichaelZuo 3y ago
        That's only if they don't QC every single part, for every single car, coming from new suppliers. Which RR would do to avoid the obvious problem, only after a supplier has been verified to be sending only the highest quality product, would they ease off. The simplest thing is that the supplier charges double or triple the unit price such that they can accept half the parts failing inspection and getting sent back.
        dehrmann 3y ago
        It's more than just QC. When you make 3M cars per year, you get a lot of data points about what fails, and you you feed that back into new designs. You also nail manufacturing tolerances. When you make 4,000 (and a lot of those won't see the same mileage as a Honda), there aren't as many opportunities to find these issues. Or another way: you an QC a bolt to death, but that doesn't tell you if it's undersized for the design.
ip26 3y ago
It’s the old fuel injection vs carburetor debate. Do you want something that usually runs for 200k miles without a single problem, but takes a fancy shop to fix? Or do you want something that needs a complete rebuild every three months and needs to be retuned for your ski trip, but can be repaired by a high school boy with a tongue depressor, a q-tip, and a hammer? The rapid exodus of carburetors shocked and dismayed many right-to-repair folks, but I think we now see with laptops and cell phones that all else equal, consumer preference strongly favors trading repair headaches for the otherwise more compelling product (thinner, faster, lighter, more powerful, etc)
- rpcope1 3y ago
  I think you can have it both ways honestly. A TBI setup with a wasted spark ignition is at least as easy to work on a carburetor, with little or no extra complexity and way less headaches, while removing a lot of the problems older stuff had (no points, condensers and caps going bad, no need to mess with the jets, etc.). You can have it both ways, the manufacturers and consumers just have to give a shit.
- AussieWog93 3y ago
  One thing I suspect has tipped the scales in favour of less repairable products is the massive decline in social capital. 30-40 years ago, if your lawnmower broke down you'd ask Dave from two doors down to come and have a look at it. Now, you'd either take it to a professional repairman (and get it back 2 weeks and $100+ later), try to work it out yourself via online tutorials, or just throw it in the bin. Either way, it's far more painful for a product to bee temporarily out of service these days than it once was.
  - mikrotikker 3y ago
    What's responsible for that decline in social capital do you think?
    - AussieWog93 3y ago
      Personally, I have no idea, and don't think you could even pinpoint a single cause. There's a book that goes over it called Bowling Alone by Robert Putnam, but that is two decades old now and clearly didn't capture everything.

by edrxty 3y ago

lawgimenez 3y ago

As someone who drives an “old” Honda 2006, I’m surprised that this machine is still running very good. I could just take it to my local shop and had it fixed in 1-2 days. Based on my logs, I took the car for repair on average of 3-4 times a year. I am looking to purchase a new family vehicle in the future but with all the softwares, screens, and fancy stuffs I am not sure if I liked it. Anyone feels this way?

Baeocystin 3y ago
I really wish there was a new car that I wanted to buy, because my 1998 Jeep isn't getting any younger. But holy crap is the modern car a dumpster fire of shit from a UI perspective. Although it looks like at least some manufacturers are starting to take note: https://futurism.com/the-byte/car-touchscreens-buttons-back https://futurism.com/the-byte/car-touchscreens-buttons-back
- a_t48 3y ago
  My car has physical buttons for climate control, volume, lights, etc but also a nice sized touch screen for CarPlay. I got the last year before VW took away the steering wheel buttons with capacitive replacements, though it sounds like they too are waking that back.
- lawgimenez 3y ago
  Yes that article sums up my feelings on the modern car. But my main concern are the repairs 5-10 years from now. It’s crazy to think that a car would be recalled by just some software glitch if that’s what I read is correct.
dehrmann 3y ago
> I’m surprised that this machine is still running very good I'm not. It's a Honda.
- dl9999 3y ago
  This isn't specifically about Honda quality, but I think it's a nice Honda anecdote. My wife bought a used Accord before we got married. Eventually it died on the highway and we had it towed to the dealer. The engine needed to be replaced because of the failure of a part that had been recalled (when it was owned by the previous owner) had not been replaced. Since it was due to a recalled part, Honda replaced the engine for the price of the oil. We bought Hondas for the next 20 years after that. We still own a 2012 Accord that my son is running into the ground. Our current car is a Volvo, lots of nice features, but I think our next will be a Honda.
  - lawgimenez 3y ago
    The engine of my 2006 Honda hasn’t had any major issue besides from oil leaks, and busted air coolant pipes, etc., minor stuffs. I guess the most important stuff is that to have its yearly complete maintenance.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    My Acura (up line Honda) was nice, but Honda has been really slow with the EV transition, so I left them for my next car even though I liked their quality. Hopefully they make the EV transition eventually.
- dahart 3y ago
  My 2017 CRV started bricking itself, of course right at the 5 year warranty mark. something was wrong somewhere and the electronics & sensor system didn’t know where so it was designed to shut all the electronic systems off, like cruise control, emergency braking, road departure mitigation, etc. etc.. about 20 different sub-systems, each one got it’s own separate loud annoying beep in succession every time the car started. We took it to the dealer many times, and they couldn’t figure out what was wrong either. That didn’t stop them from trying, by replacing whatever part was their best guess and charging us for the new one plus labor. During our final visit to the dealer, only a few blocks away, the car broke down. It limped, smoking, to the dealer where they found the AC compressed had seized causing the timing belt to melt, which then took out the alternator and several other components. After a $5,000 repair and assurances the problem must be fixed, we took it home and had a nice month’s worth of driving, and then it started bricking again. We couldn’t sell it fast enough, what a nightmare. To their partial credit, Honda later reimbursed half the repair cost, and the dealer admitted the vehicle failure was design flaws that were out of our control. We also found out after the repair that the AC compressor had been recalled, but unfortunately the new one didn’t fix the problem. Tl;dr I did before I bought it, but I personally no longer believe Honda to be more reliable than any other brand. One major problem across the industry now is that they know how to make good reliable engines and powertrains, but none of them are any good at computer software reliability, and computers have very suddenly taken over all critical systems in the car.
mikrotikker 3y ago
There's a few tricks to know for each model. I got a mid 2000s ford with a by all accounts unbreakable engine (600hp possible on stock internals) but the radiator and trans cooler is the same unit and often cracks pushing coolant into the trans. First thing i did to it was to buy an aftermarket external trans cooler for my specific model and install it.
mlrtime 3y ago
Repair 3-4 times a year or oil changes/consumables? How many miles does this honda have, age is not a good indicator over miles. If you are really having this car repaired 4 times a year for 18 years (72 repairs) this doesn't sound like a reliable machine. A modern Toyota or Honda can go many years with 0 repairs, just consumables.
- lawgimenez 3y ago
  Most are not engine repairs, just some wear and tear on some parts. I live in Southeast Asia where roads are mostly shit.

MichaelZuo 3y ago

You can have that level of quality and care for the entire car, not just limited to the drivetrain and electronics, and it's probably even in a showroom right now waiting for buyers, just at your nearest Rolls Royce dealership.

YouWhy 3y ago
I would not expect RR to be particularly high quality, due to: 1. Small production batches, 2. Low typical usage - most RR owners do not use it to commute on a daily basis, hence do not face high reliability requirements, 3. The ability of the typical buyer to overspend on maintenance, whether preemptively or on-demand.
- gocartStatue 3y ago
  Small production batches are absolutely required for high quality (see Toyota, TQM)
  - dehrmann 3y ago
    But there isn't enough overall volume to ever get the kinks worked out.
    - MichaelZuo 3y ago
      That's only if they don't QC every single part, for every single car, coming from new suppliers. Which RR would do to avoid the obvious problem, only after a supplier has been verified to be sending only the highest quality product, would they ease off. The simplest thing is that the supplier charges double or triple the unit price such that they can accept half the parts failing inspection and getting sent back.
      - dehrmann 3y ago
        It's more than just QC. When you make 3M cars per year, you get a lot of data points about what fails, and you you feed that back into new designs. You also nail manufacturing tolerances. When you make 4,000 (and a lot of those won't see the same mileage as a Honda), there aren't as many opportunities to find these issues. Or another way: you an QC a bolt to death, but that doesn't tell you if it's undersized for the design.

ip26 3y ago

It’s the old fuel injection vs carburetor debate. Do you want something that usually runs for 200k miles without a single problem, but takes a fancy shop to fix? Or do you want something that needs a complete rebuild every three months and needs to be retuned for your ski trip, but can be repaired by a high school boy with a tongue depressor, a q-tip, and a hammer? The rapid exodus of carburetors shocked and dismayed many right-to-repair folks, but I think we now see with laptops and cell phones that all else equal, consumer preference strongly favors trading repair headaches for the otherwise more compelling product (thinner, faster, lighter, more powerful, etc)

rpcope1 3y ago
I think you can have it both ways honestly. A TBI setup with a wasted spark ignition is at least as easy to work on a carburetor, with little or no extra complexity and way less headaches, while removing a lot of the problems older stuff had (no points, condensers and caps going bad, no need to mess with the jets, etc.). You can have it both ways, the manufacturers and consumers just have to give a shit.
AussieWog93 3y ago
One thing I suspect has tipped the scales in favour of less repairable products is the massive decline in social capital. 30-40 years ago, if your lawnmower broke down you'd ask Dave from two doors down to come and have a look at it. Now, you'd either take it to a professional repairman (and get it back 2 weeks and $100+ later), try to work it out yourself via online tutorials, or just throw it in the bin. Either way, it's far more painful for a product to bee temporarily out of service these days than it once was.
- mikrotikker 3y ago
  What's responsible for that decline in social capital do you think?
  - AussieWog93 3y ago
    Personally, I have no idea, and don't think you could even pinpoint a single cause. There's a book that goes over it called Bowling Alone by Robert Putnam, but that is two decades old now and clearly didn't capture everything.