8 ms·

Past mRNA cancer vaccines haven't failed to get through trials because of ineffectiveness. They failed clinical trials in the 2000s and 2010s due to their side

Past mRNA cancer vaccines haven't failed to get through trials because of ineffectiveness. They failed clinical trials in the 2000s and 2010s due to their side effects being too bad. The side effects of mRNA vaccines are getting less and less severe over the years, but the proof of the pudding will come in phase III for this vaccine, as with all the other ones.

frozenport 3y ago
Do you have any references?
tmountain 3y ago
What kind of side effects?
- neverrroot 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - _Microft 3y ago
    What does „CV“ in „CV vaccine“ mean?
    - m0llusk 3y ago
      CV: Corona Virus
      - croisillon 3y ago
        that might explain why i never receive an answer to all the CV i sent
        neverrroot 3y ago
        Good one!
  - deleted 3y ago
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  - deleted 3y ago
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  - mewpmewp2 3y ago
    For coronavirus maybe, because it's not much of danger for you in the first place, but those risks would be thousands of times more acceptable for cancer. There are no side effects observed from mRNA CV vaccines that could be worse when compared to cancers with 1%+ mortality rate. As a reminder you won't be taking it before the cancer, you would be taking it after the fact.
    - neverrroot 3y ago
      There are maybe no effects that we know about right now. Different people have different opinions on what their risk tolerance is, so there could be people that may outright disagree with your statement. And there were even fewer such effects when the vaccines have rolled out back in 2020 with emergency approval, but without being used “in production” beforehand. Now we know much more about the mRNA platform, but I still can’t exclude the possibility entirely for me. So I will take my chances and focus much more on quality of food, on staying fit, reducing stress etc. etc.
      - mewpmewp2 3y ago
        You should do the healthy things to avoid cancer in the first place, but once you are diagnosed with a cancer with high mortality rate, it's a whole different calculation in terms of risks vs benefits compared to Covid-19.
        neverrroot 3y ago
        Indeed. My view on vaccines is that they are not a cure but act as prevention agents.
        mewpmewp2 3y ago
        There's multiple vaccines that can also work after you've been exposed to a pathogen. In many such cases risks vs benefits will change by the event. For example rabies vaccines is not given to everyone, however after you get rabies you will be given that vaccine. Vaccine in this case is a less harmful training tool to prepare you for the more harmful pathogen that may still be reaching its peak strength. You can think of vaccines as a training tool. In some cases it might provide you with a response that can completely throw the pathogen out, in other cases it will just be able to fight it better.
  - azan_ 3y ago
    mRNA will eventually save the day for everyone, including for perfectly healthy individuals, but to me as a healthy 40yo person, with no known immunity issues, not overweight etc. etc. it is in my opinion still too risky to take just like that. It's an interesting take. From what we know so far, the risk from taking vaccine is much smaller than from covid infection. You might counter this with highlighting the "so far" part, but keep in mind that many studies keep coming out with surprises not only regarding vaccine side effects, but also negative long term effects of covid.
    - mewpmewp2 3y ago
      There's a key difference here that cancer mRNA vaccine you are taking after you've been diagnosed with cancer. Otherwise for Coronavirus vaccines you couldn't argue that risks are much smaller for any given person under any given conditions. E.g. a person could be completely isolated for the next 10 years and have virtually 0% chance of getting Covid-19, so in this case there's no calculation that could show a vaccine being with more favourable benefits/risks. If there's a 1/10,000 chance of giving you a sore shoulder that would be worse in the calculations if you are for sure to be isolated from being anywhere near the virus.
      - azan_ 3y ago
        Otherwise for Coronavirus vaccines you couldn't argue that risks are much smaller for any given person under any given conditions. E.g. a person could be completely isolated for the next 10 years and have virtually 0% chance of getting Covid-19, so in this case there's no calculation that could show a vaccine being with more favourable benefits/risks. Well yes, in completely absurd and unrealistic situation the risk of taking vaccine might be larger than that of Covid-19.
        mewpmewp2 3y ago
        > Well yes, in completely absurd and unrealistic situation the risk of taking vaccine might be larger than that of Covid-19. What about a person living in simple solitude who works remotely and orders everything in? This is a realistic, non-absurd scenario and they would possibly risk getting Covid-19 on their way to the appointment of getting the vaccine.
  - joneholland 3y ago
    You haven’t written anything of substance but antivax fearmongering.
    - neverrroot 3y ago
      I have to disagree with this, clearly visible under my profile. In general I try to stay clear of any vaccine debates, in general because of being labeled in certain ways I don’t identify myself with at all.
  - lukeck 3y ago
    > the ones for the CV vaccine were listed on many pages of tiny text (both from Pfizer and from Moderna) The size of the pages side effects were written on says absolutely nothing about what the side effects are or their severity. > Then there are the long term consequences, many studies keep coming out with surprises (recent buzzword “Ribosomal frameshift” Ribosomal frameshift is in itself not a “long term consequence.” It is simply that depending on where translational of a piece of mRNA starts, different proteins can be produced. This is an essential part of how our own (or any other organism’s mRNA) is translated into proteins. other proteins present in a cell can regulate which proteins can be produced - again an essential part of how our cells function. This has been known about for decades. It is one of the main potential areas that could lead to side effects of an mRNA vaccine so understanding what other proteins might be translated and under what circumstances is important. Please don’t fear monger without any actual evidence to back it.
    - cscurmudgeon 3y ago
      > The size of the pages side effects were written on says absolutely nothing about what the side effects are or their severity. Naive question: Do they say what the side effects are and their severity in an easily accessible manner somewhere?
      - hammock 3y ago
        The official package insert can be read here: https://www.drugs.com/pro/moderna-covid-19-vaccine.html https://www.drugs.com/pro/moderna-covid-19-vaccine.html
      - oezi 3y ago
        From the sibling comment link I would say, yes: 5 WARNINGS AND PRECAUTIONS 5.1 Management of Acute Allergic Reactions Appropriate medical treatment to manage immediate allergic reactions must be immediately available in the event an acute anaphylactic reaction occurs following administration of Moderna COVID-19 Vaccine. Monitor Moderna COVID-19 Vaccine recipients for the occurrence of immediate adverse reactions according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) guidelines (https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/clinical-considerations/managing-anaphylaxis.html https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/clinical-consideration...). 5.2 Myocarditis and Pericarditis Postmarketing data with authorized or approved mRNA COVID-19 vaccines demonstrate increased risks of myocarditis and pericarditis, particularly within the first week following vaccination. For Moderna COVID-19 Vaccine, the observed risk is highest in males 18 years through 24 years of age. Although some cases required intensive care support, available data from short-term follow-up suggest that most individuals have had resolution of symptoms with conservative management. Information is not yet available about potential long-term sequelae. The CDC has published considerations related to myocarditis and pericarditis after vaccination, including for vaccination of individuals with a history of myocarditis or pericarditis (https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/clinical-considerations/myocarditis.html https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/clinical-consideration...). 5.3 Syncope Syncope (fainting) may occur in association with administration of injectable vaccines. Procedures should be in place to avoid injury from fainting. 5.4 Altered Immunocompetence Immunocompromised persons, including individuals receiving immunosuppressive therapy, may have a diminished response to Moderna COVID-19 Vaccine. 5.5 Limitations of Vaccine Effectiveness Moderna COVID-19 Vaccine may not protect all vaccine recipients.
  - robbiep 3y ago
    Where, exactly, are the long term consequences of mRNA vaccination for SARS-CoV-2? Compared with, say, actually developing COVID? (Please note I’m not arguing that receiving a COVID mRNA vaccine is entirely risk free, however on a risk weighted basis receiving a COVID vaccine is much safer than having COVID)
    - neverrroot 3y ago
      To me the biggest risk is still the unknown, as in not enough experience. They have never been used “in production” until 2020. I saved this post as a favorite and set up a reminder in 2 years and in 5 years about it. Hope there will be nothing to add, and we just got ourselves a mighty vaccines platform at zero long term consequences.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - pfisherman 3y ago
    Get ready to see vaccines be used to prevent and cure conditions you that you probably think are outside the scope of what vaccines can address. Projecting further into the future, the world is going to be divided into those with access to and willingness to use biotechnology and those who don’t. Note that I am including things like fitness and health tracking apps under the umbrella of biotech.
  - lawlessone 3y ago
    > but the ones for the CV vaccine were listed on many pages of tiny text (both from Pfizer and from Moderna). A whole bunch of OTC drugs carry CYA lists like this, it's not the gotcha you think it is. > but to me as a healthy 40yo person, with no known immunity issues, not overweight etc. My father is getting a stent put in for a 70% artery blockage. Older of course but skinny, looks after his health, exercises. He had no symptoms like pain or being out of breath. Just high cholesterol. A friend of mine in his early 30's healthy nearly got taken out by RSV last year because it aggravated a heart condition he was unaware of. People aren't as healthy as they like to convince themselves they are.
    - ethanbond 3y ago
      Yeah you gotta love the people like “COVID is only super dangerous if you have comorbidities!” Yeah dude have you ever walked around and looked at people? Then have you ever talked even to people who outwardly appear healthy? Comorbidities run amok, known and unknown.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
bluGill 3y ago
The side effects of most cancer treatments are aweful. How do they compare?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- satchlj 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > bar for side effects is much stricter for preventative treatments like vaccines These vaccines are for treatment. They don’t prevent cancer. They treat it. They’re vaccines because they work by arming your immune system versus doing the fighting themselves.
    - satchlj 3y ago
      > The cancer vaccine: Moderna and pharma giant Merck are developing an mRNA-based cancer vaccine, mRNA-4157 (V940), for people who’ve had high-risk melanomas removed.
      - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > for people who’ve had high-risk melanomas removed This is still treatment. They aren’t administering the vaccine to healthy adults. The population is melanoma survivors with a high risk of recurrence.
        shadowgovt 3y ago
        Isn't this hair splitting on definitions? They are there for vaccinating against future instances of cancer after somebody is in remission from previous instances of cancer. It's not a generally-distributed vaccine, but there are all sorts of vaccines that aren't generally distributed and instead applied only to populations likely to encounter the illness protected against (such as the battery one is exposed to if one travels to particular parts of the world).
JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> failed clinical trials in the 2000s and 2010s We didn’t start testing neoantigen mRNA cancer vaccines until 2017 [1]. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8942458/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8942458/
- junofan 3y ago
  IIRC from when Moderna started getting hot back in 2012 the preclinical trials weren’t going well. I think those were running ca. 2004–2005. Moderna took the infectious disease approach.
  - mlyle 3y ago
    This is an oversimplification, but: Moderna mostly took an initial infectious disease approach because extant mRNA formulations at the time provoked too much of an immune response that neutralized the effectiveness of subsequent dosing. There's a goldilocks amount of immune response you want-- too little and the immune system doesn't learn the antigens you'd like, but too much makes it miss the mark and focus too much on the formulation of the vaccine itself. For a cancer vaccine that you want to dose multiple times (9 times in this study) to keep up peak immune response this is a problem. For infectious disease, where some early sensitization of the immune system can be enough, it's not so bad.
    - make3 3y ago
      huh that sounds exactly like machine learning overfitting vs generalization
      - shadowgovt 3y ago
        Interesting analogy and it may not be wrong. The acquired immune system basically includes a feature where it can squirrel away some of the white blood cells that fought an infection in the past at the site of the infection. This is a subset of the cells that were activated by the chemicals that were found during the infection. But the immune system doesn't have a great way to distinguish the chemicals that actually cause illness from ancillary chemicals that may have been present during the infection as well. This is one of the root causes of allergies... you get sick with, say, rhinovirus at the same time that the pollen count is really high and your immune system defeats the rhinovirus but squirrels away both the white blood cells that were activated by the rhinovirus and the ones that were activated by the basically harmless chemicals on the surface of pollen grains. Then the next time allergy season comes around, your nasal passages and lungs fill up with pollen grains and the white blood cells close to the surface that were squirled away due to that old rhinovirus infection activate and trigger your immune system to respond to the pollen.
fuckyah 3y ago
[dead]
snowwrestler 3y ago
I think you might be confusing mRNA vaccines with immunological cancer treatments in general, which have been tried in trials for decades and have occasionally caused horrible side effects in some patients.

frozenport 3y ago

Do you have any references?

tmountain 3y ago

What kind of side effects?

neverrroot 3y ago
[flagged]
- _Microft 3y ago
  What does „CV“ in „CV vaccine“ mean?
  - m0llusk 3y ago
    CV: Corona Virus
    - croisillon 3y ago
      that might explain why i never receive an answer to all the CV i sent
      - neverrroot 3y ago
        Good one!
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- mewpmewp2 3y ago
  For coronavirus maybe, because it's not much of danger for you in the first place, but those risks would be thousands of times more acceptable for cancer. There are no side effects observed from mRNA CV vaccines that could be worse when compared to cancers with 1%+ mortality rate. As a reminder you won't be taking it before the cancer, you would be taking it after the fact.
  - neverrroot 3y ago
    There are maybe no effects that we know about right now. Different people have different opinions on what their risk tolerance is, so there could be people that may outright disagree with your statement. And there were even fewer such effects when the vaccines have rolled out back in 2020 with emergency approval, but without being used “in production” beforehand. Now we know much more about the mRNA platform, but I still can’t exclude the possibility entirely for me. So I will take my chances and focus much more on quality of food, on staying fit, reducing stress etc. etc.
    - mewpmewp2 3y ago
      You should do the healthy things to avoid cancer in the first place, but once you are diagnosed with a cancer with high mortality rate, it's a whole different calculation in terms of risks vs benefits compared to Covid-19.
      - neverrroot 3y ago
        Indeed. My view on vaccines is that they are not a cure but act as prevention agents.
        mewpmewp2 3y ago
        There's multiple vaccines that can also work after you've been exposed to a pathogen. In many such cases risks vs benefits will change by the event. For example rabies vaccines is not given to everyone, however after you get rabies you will be given that vaccine. Vaccine in this case is a less harmful training tool to prepare you for the more harmful pathogen that may still be reaching its peak strength. You can think of vaccines as a training tool. In some cases it might provide you with a response that can completely throw the pathogen out, in other cases it will just be able to fight it better.
- azan_ 3y ago
  mRNA will eventually save the day for everyone, including for perfectly healthy individuals, but to me as a healthy 40yo person, with no known immunity issues, not overweight etc. etc. it is in my opinion still too risky to take just like that. It's an interesting take. From what we know so far, the risk from taking vaccine is much smaller than from covid infection. You might counter this with highlighting the "so far" part, but keep in mind that many studies keep coming out with surprises not only regarding vaccine side effects, but also negative long term effects of covid.
  - mewpmewp2 3y ago
    There's a key difference here that cancer mRNA vaccine you are taking after you've been diagnosed with cancer. Otherwise for Coronavirus vaccines you couldn't argue that risks are much smaller for any given person under any given conditions. E.g. a person could be completely isolated for the next 10 years and have virtually 0% chance of getting Covid-19, so in this case there's no calculation that could show a vaccine being with more favourable benefits/risks. If there's a 1/10,000 chance of giving you a sore shoulder that would be worse in the calculations if you are for sure to be isolated from being anywhere near the virus.
    - azan_ 3y ago
      Otherwise for Coronavirus vaccines you couldn't argue that risks are much smaller for any given person under any given conditions. E.g. a person could be completely isolated for the next 10 years and have virtually 0% chance of getting Covid-19, so in this case there's no calculation that could show a vaccine being with more favourable benefits/risks. Well yes, in completely absurd and unrealistic situation the risk of taking vaccine might be larger than that of Covid-19.
      - mewpmewp2 3y ago
        > Well yes, in completely absurd and unrealistic situation the risk of taking vaccine might be larger than that of Covid-19. What about a person living in simple solitude who works remotely and orders everything in? This is a realistic, non-absurd scenario and they would possibly risk getting Covid-19 on their way to the appointment of getting the vaccine.
- joneholland 3y ago
  You haven’t written anything of substance but antivax fearmongering.
  - neverrroot 3y ago
    I have to disagree with this, clearly visible under my profile. In general I try to stay clear of any vaccine debates, in general because of being labeled in certain ways I don’t identify myself with at all.
- lukeck 3y ago
  > the ones for the CV vaccine were listed on many pages of tiny text (both from Pfizer and from Moderna) The size of the pages side effects were written on says absolutely nothing about what the side effects are or their severity. > Then there are the long term consequences, many studies keep coming out with surprises (recent buzzword “Ribosomal frameshift” Ribosomal frameshift is in itself not a “long term consequence.” It is simply that depending on where translational of a piece of mRNA starts, different proteins can be produced. This is an essential part of how our own (or any other organism’s mRNA) is translated into proteins. other proteins present in a cell can regulate which proteins can be produced - again an essential part of how our cells function. This has been known about for decades. It is one of the main potential areas that could lead to side effects of an mRNA vaccine so understanding what other proteins might be translated and under what circumstances is important. Please don’t fear monger without any actual evidence to back it.
  - cscurmudgeon 3y ago
    > The size of the pages side effects were written on says absolutely nothing about what the side effects are or their severity. Naive question: Do they say what the side effects are and their severity in an easily accessible manner somewhere?
    - hammock 3y ago
      The official package insert can be read here: https://www.drugs.com/pro/moderna-covid-19-vaccine.html https://www.drugs.com/pro/moderna-covid-19-vaccine.html
    - oezi 3y ago
      From the sibling comment link I would say, yes: 5 WARNINGS AND PRECAUTIONS 5.1 Management of Acute Allergic Reactions Appropriate medical treatment to manage immediate allergic reactions must be immediately available in the event an acute anaphylactic reaction occurs following administration of Moderna COVID-19 Vaccine. Monitor Moderna COVID-19 Vaccine recipients for the occurrence of immediate adverse reactions according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) guidelines (https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/clinical-considerations/managing-anaphylaxis.html https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/clinical-consideration...). 5.2 Myocarditis and Pericarditis Postmarketing data with authorized or approved mRNA COVID-19 vaccines demonstrate increased risks of myocarditis and pericarditis, particularly within the first week following vaccination. For Moderna COVID-19 Vaccine, the observed risk is highest in males 18 years through 24 years of age. Although some cases required intensive care support, available data from short-term follow-up suggest that most individuals have had resolution of symptoms with conservative management. Information is not yet available about potential long-term sequelae. The CDC has published considerations related to myocarditis and pericarditis after vaccination, including for vaccination of individuals with a history of myocarditis or pericarditis (https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/clinical-considerations/myocarditis.html https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/clinical-consideration...). 5.3 Syncope Syncope (fainting) may occur in association with administration of injectable vaccines. Procedures should be in place to avoid injury from fainting. 5.4 Altered Immunocompetence Immunocompromised persons, including individuals receiving immunosuppressive therapy, may have a diminished response to Moderna COVID-19 Vaccine. 5.5 Limitations of Vaccine Effectiveness Moderna COVID-19 Vaccine may not protect all vaccine recipients.
- robbiep 3y ago
  Where, exactly, are the long term consequences of mRNA vaccination for SARS-CoV-2? Compared with, say, actually developing COVID? (Please note I’m not arguing that receiving a COVID mRNA vaccine is entirely risk free, however on a risk weighted basis receiving a COVID vaccine is much safer than having COVID)
  - neverrroot 3y ago
    To me the biggest risk is still the unknown, as in not enough experience. They have never been used “in production” until 2020. I saved this post as a favorite and set up a reminder in 2 years and in 5 years about it. Hope there will be nothing to add, and we just got ourselves a mighty vaccines platform at zero long term consequences.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- pfisherman 3y ago
  Get ready to see vaccines be used to prevent and cure conditions you that you probably think are outside the scope of what vaccines can address. Projecting further into the future, the world is going to be divided into those with access to and willingness to use biotechnology and those who don’t. Note that I am including things like fitness and health tracking apps under the umbrella of biotech.
- lawlessone 3y ago
  > but the ones for the CV vaccine were listed on many pages of tiny text (both from Pfizer and from Moderna). A whole bunch of OTC drugs carry CYA lists like this, it's not the gotcha you think it is. > but to me as a healthy 40yo person, with no known immunity issues, not overweight etc. My father is getting a stent put in for a 70% artery blockage. Older of course but skinny, looks after his health, exercises. He had no symptoms like pain or being out of breath. Just high cholesterol. A friend of mine in his early 30's healthy nearly got taken out by RSV last year because it aggravated a heart condition he was unaware of. People aren't as healthy as they like to convince themselves they are.
  - ethanbond 3y ago
    Yeah you gotta love the people like “COVID is only super dangerous if you have comorbidities!” Yeah dude have you ever walked around and looked at people? Then have you ever talked even to people who outwardly appear healthy? Comorbidities run amok, known and unknown.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]

bluGill 3y ago

The side effects of most cancer treatments are aweful. How do they compare?

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
satchlj 3y ago
[flagged]
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > bar for side effects is much stricter for preventative treatments like vaccines These vaccines are for treatment. They don’t prevent cancer. They treat it. They’re vaccines because they work by arming your immune system versus doing the fighting themselves.
  - satchlj 3y ago
    > The cancer vaccine: Moderna and pharma giant Merck are developing an mRNA-based cancer vaccine, mRNA-4157 (V940), for people who’ve had high-risk melanomas removed.
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > for people who’ve had high-risk melanomas removed This is still treatment. They aren’t administering the vaccine to healthy adults. The population is melanoma survivors with a high risk of recurrence.
      - shadowgovt 3y ago
        Isn't this hair splitting on definitions? They are there for vaccinating against future instances of cancer after somebody is in remission from previous instances of cancer. It's not a generally-distributed vaccine, but there are all sorts of vaccines that aren't generally distributed and instead applied only to populations likely to encounter the illness protected against (such as the battery one is exposed to if one travels to particular parts of the world).

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

> failed clinical trials in the 2000s and 2010s We didn’t start testing neoantigen mRNA cancer vaccines until 2017 [1]. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8942458/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8942458/

junofan 3y ago
IIRC from when Moderna started getting hot back in 2012 the preclinical trials weren’t going well. I think those were running ca. 2004–2005. Moderna took the infectious disease approach.
- mlyle 3y ago
  This is an oversimplification, but: Moderna mostly took an initial infectious disease approach because extant mRNA formulations at the time provoked too much of an immune response that neutralized the effectiveness of subsequent dosing. There's a goldilocks amount of immune response you want-- too little and the immune system doesn't learn the antigens you'd like, but too much makes it miss the mark and focus too much on the formulation of the vaccine itself. For a cancer vaccine that you want to dose multiple times (9 times in this study) to keep up peak immune response this is a problem. For infectious disease, where some early sensitization of the immune system can be enough, it's not so bad.
  - make3 3y ago
    huh that sounds exactly like machine learning overfitting vs generalization
    - shadowgovt 3y ago
      Interesting analogy and it may not be wrong. The acquired immune system basically includes a feature where it can squirrel away some of the white blood cells that fought an infection in the past at the site of the infection. This is a subset of the cells that were activated by the chemicals that were found during the infection. But the immune system doesn't have a great way to distinguish the chemicals that actually cause illness from ancillary chemicals that may have been present during the infection as well. This is one of the root causes of allergies... you get sick with, say, rhinovirus at the same time that the pollen count is really high and your immune system defeats the rhinovirus but squirrels away both the white blood cells that were activated by the rhinovirus and the ones that were activated by the basically harmless chemicals on the surface of pollen grains. Then the next time allergy season comes around, your nasal passages and lungs fill up with pollen grains and the white blood cells close to the surface that were squirled away due to that old rhinovirus infection activate and trigger your immune system to respond to the pollen.

fuckyah 3y ago

[dead]

snowwrestler 3y ago

I think you might be confusing mRNA vaccines with immunological cancer treatments in general, which have been tried in trials for decades and have occasionally caused horrible side effects in some patients.