4 ms·

It need not be predatory, nor need it be mandatory for users to take advantage of these features, nor need it be proprietary or non-free.

Palomides 3y ago
I agree, but I think the incentives tend to push towards user hostile results. It's a small jump for the business mind to go from free cloud optional to free cloud only to paid features cloud to subscription only cloud, or selling plastic to only supporting their own plastic, and so on. Web services are so cheap and profitable that it feels like every business converges towards them now. I'd really rather buy from a company that makes money directly from selling good hardware (but certainly the hardware is useless without ongoing software development, and we're back to the original issue).
- drewdevault 3y ago
  Mainly I think that this temptation is circumvented with strong leadership and weak investors. That big VC money is a poison, but if you don't take it then you can focus on the product without so much of the risk.
  - kiba 3y ago
    AGPL cloud service would circumvent this issue rather than relying purely on strong leadership and company DNA.
    - drewdevault 3y ago
      True that!
- mulmen 3y ago
  > but certainly the hardware is useless without ongoing software development, and we're back to the original issue Why is this true though? Are 3D printers still evolving so quickly?
  - Palomides 3y ago
    All software requires maintenance, and there are continually ongoing software-driven print speed and quality improvements. That said, I could keep using the firmware and slicer software I have now until the hardware becomes unmaintainable (probably have to run it in a VM at some point), assuming no critical safety bugs.
    - mulmen 3y ago
      The desktop software has to keep up with the shifting sands of modern operating systems. But I don’t understand why the 3D printer itself needs software maintenance. It is just executing something like GCode right? How much does that really change? > All software requires maintenance Is this a law of nature or our youthful incompetence?
MarkusQ 3y ago
Then what's the point? It would take effort to develop these "features", the only benefit of which would be predatory. For example: > Bambu’s cloud slicer is a massive lost opportunity for Prusa. Bambu's cloud slicer is a complicated SaaS undertaking that incurs hosting and storage costs, yet doesn't (so far as I know) generate any revenue for Bambu Labs. So why do it, unless you want to make sure that a copy of whatever your product prints gets sent to and stored on a server in China? What's the "non-predatory" justification for this over local slicing?
- maximus-decimus 3y ago
  Some people want to be able to launch a print job from a remote location e.g. their living room with their 3d printers being in a workshop. Personally, I think that's a fire hazard, but I've definitely seen youtubers liking that feature.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    For 3D printers that's a manageable risk, for laser cutters I would highly recommend against unattended operation. They're fire starters first and laser cutters second, treat them as such.
- drewdevault 3y ago
  Businesses are more complex than just one facet. Not everything the business offers has to be a direct revenue driver; it builds trust with the brand and improves the experience by putting everything you need with respect to your printer in the same spot. Which of the following experiences delivers better value to the customer: 1. They buy a printer and can immediately slice and print stuff on the vendor's web app 2. They buy a printer and have to deal with the nightmare of installing and configuring Cura The former is more meaningful still when you consider how it can integrate with other parts of the value-add, such as Creality's model database, which can take you from the model's detail page to the slicer in just a click or two -- no download, no import into Cura, no setting up Octoprint or whatever. For enthusiasts the value-add is not entirely necessary but for consumers it's massive. And none of this precludes continuing to support local slicers or free software! In fact, if you value FOSS in your product line (as Prusa… well, used to) they will be using and contributing to the same slicer you run on your workstation as they run on their servers.
LegitShady 3y ago
It need not be, but once these features are developed they almost certainly become mandatory, proprietary, and predatory.
jacquesm 3y ago
But it always is...
JKCalhoun 3y ago
Agree. Glowforge decided to make it mandatory and I have noped out of their product.

Palomides 3y ago

I agree, but I think the incentives tend to push towards user hostile results. It's a small jump for the business mind to go from free cloud optional to free cloud only to paid features cloud to subscription only cloud, or selling plastic to only supporting their own plastic, and so on. Web services are so cheap and profitable that it feels like every business converges towards them now. I'd really rather buy from a company that makes money directly from selling good hardware (but certainly the hardware is useless without ongoing software development, and we're back to the original issue).

drewdevault 3y ago
Mainly I think that this temptation is circumvented with strong leadership and weak investors. That big VC money is a poison, but if you don't take it then you can focus on the product without so much of the risk.
- kiba 3y ago
  AGPL cloud service would circumvent this issue rather than relying purely on strong leadership and company DNA.
  - drewdevault 3y ago
    True that!
mulmen 3y ago
> but certainly the hardware is useless without ongoing software development, and we're back to the original issue Why is this true though? Are 3D printers still evolving so quickly?
- Palomides 3y ago
  All software requires maintenance, and there are continually ongoing software-driven print speed and quality improvements. That said, I could keep using the firmware and slicer software I have now until the hardware becomes unmaintainable (probably have to run it in a VM at some point), assuming no critical safety bugs.
  - mulmen 3y ago
    The desktop software has to keep up with the shifting sands of modern operating systems. But I don’t understand why the 3D printer itself needs software maintenance. It is just executing something like GCode right? How much does that really change? > All software requires maintenance Is this a law of nature or our youthful incompetence?

MarkusQ 3y ago

Then what's the point? It would take effort to develop these "features", the only benefit of which would be predatory. For example: > Bambu’s cloud slicer is a massive lost opportunity for Prusa. Bambu's cloud slicer is a complicated SaaS undertaking that incurs hosting and storage costs, yet doesn't (so far as I know) generate any revenue for Bambu Labs. So why do it, unless you want to make sure that a copy of whatever your product prints gets sent to and stored on a server in China? What's the "non-predatory" justification for this over local slicing?

maximus-decimus 3y ago
Some people want to be able to launch a print job from a remote location e.g. their living room with their 3d printers being in a workshop. Personally, I think that's a fire hazard, but I've definitely seen youtubers liking that feature.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  For 3D printers that's a manageable risk, for laser cutters I would highly recommend against unattended operation. They're fire starters first and laser cutters second, treat them as such.
drewdevault 3y ago
Businesses are more complex than just one facet. Not everything the business offers has to be a direct revenue driver; it builds trust with the brand and improves the experience by putting everything you need with respect to your printer in the same spot. Which of the following experiences delivers better value to the customer: 1. They buy a printer and can immediately slice and print stuff on the vendor's web app 2. They buy a printer and have to deal with the nightmare of installing and configuring Cura The former is more meaningful still when you consider how it can integrate with other parts of the value-add, such as Creality's model database, which can take you from the model's detail page to the slicer in just a click or two -- no download, no import into Cura, no setting up Octoprint or whatever. For enthusiasts the value-add is not entirely necessary but for consumers it's massive. And none of this precludes continuing to support local slicers or free software! In fact, if you value FOSS in your product line (as Prusa… well, used to) they will be using and contributing to the same slicer you run on your workstation as they run on their servers.

LegitShady 3y ago

It need not be, but once these features are developed they almost certainly become mandatory, proprietary, and predatory.

jacquesm 3y ago

But it always is...

JKCalhoun 3y ago

Agree. Glowforge decided to make it mandatory and I have noped out of their product.