6 ms·

>Imagine a Prusa where it works out of the box, you can fire up a slicer in your browser which auto-connects to your printer and prints models from a Prusa-oper

>Imagine a Prusa where it works out of the box, you can fire up a slicer in your browser which auto-connects to your printer and prints models from a Prusa-operated model repository, paying $10 for a premium model, $1 off the top goes to Prusa, with the same saved payment details which ensure that a fresh spool of Prusa filament arrives at your front door when it auto-detects that your printer is almost out. The print you want is too big for your build volume? Click here to have it cloud printed – do you want priority shipping for that? Your hot-end is reaching the end of its life – as one of our valued business customers on our premium support contract we would be happy to send you a temporary replacement printer while yours is shipped in for service. What a nightmare. Grimly funny to see 3d printers getting pressured to take up all the 2d printer business models everyone hates (service contracts, proprietary consumables, cloud management software, etc.).

drewdevault 3y ago
It need not be predatory, nor need it be mandatory for users to take advantage of these features, nor need it be proprietary or non-free.
- Palomides 3y ago
  I agree, but I think the incentives tend to push towards user hostile results. It's a small jump for the business mind to go from free cloud optional to free cloud only to paid features cloud to subscription only cloud, or selling plastic to only supporting their own plastic, and so on. Web services are so cheap and profitable that it feels like every business converges towards them now. I'd really rather buy from a company that makes money directly from selling good hardware (but certainly the hardware is useless without ongoing software development, and we're back to the original issue).
  - drewdevault 3y ago
    Mainly I think that this temptation is circumvented with strong leadership and weak investors. That big VC money is a poison, but if you don't take it then you can focus on the product without so much of the risk.
    - kiba 3y ago
      AGPL cloud service would circumvent this issue rather than relying purely on strong leadership and company DNA.
      - drewdevault 3y ago
        True that!
  - mulmen 3y ago
    > but certainly the hardware is useless without ongoing software development, and we're back to the original issue Why is this true though? Are 3D printers still evolving so quickly?
    - Palomides 3y ago
      All software requires maintenance, and there are continually ongoing software-driven print speed and quality improvements. That said, I could keep using the firmware and slicer software I have now until the hardware becomes unmaintainable (probably have to run it in a VM at some point), assuming no critical safety bugs.
      - mulmen 3y ago
        The desktop software has to keep up with the shifting sands of modern operating systems. But I don’t understand why the 3D printer itself needs software maintenance. It is just executing something like GCode right? How much does that really change? > All software requires maintenance Is this a law of nature or our youthful incompetence?
- MarkusQ 3y ago
  Then what's the point? It would take effort to develop these "features", the only benefit of which would be predatory. For example: > Bambu’s cloud slicer is a massive lost opportunity for Prusa. Bambu's cloud slicer is a complicated SaaS undertaking that incurs hosting and storage costs, yet doesn't (so far as I know) generate any revenue for Bambu Labs. So why do it, unless you want to make sure that a copy of whatever your product prints gets sent to and stored on a server in China? What's the "non-predatory" justification for this over local slicing?
  - maximus-decimus 3y ago
    Some people want to be able to launch a print job from a remote location e.g. their living room with their 3d printers being in a workshop. Personally, I think that's a fire hazard, but I've definitely seen youtubers liking that feature.
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      For 3D printers that's a manageable risk, for laser cutters I would highly recommend against unattended operation. They're fire starters first and laser cutters second, treat them as such.
  - drewdevault 3y ago
    Businesses are more complex than just one facet. Not everything the business offers has to be a direct revenue driver; it builds trust with the brand and improves the experience by putting everything you need with respect to your printer in the same spot. Which of the following experiences delivers better value to the customer: 1. They buy a printer and can immediately slice and print stuff on the vendor's web app 2. They buy a printer and have to deal with the nightmare of installing and configuring Cura The former is more meaningful still when you consider how it can integrate with other parts of the value-add, such as Creality's model database, which can take you from the model's detail page to the slicer in just a click or two -- no download, no import into Cura, no setting up Octoprint or whatever. For enthusiasts the value-add is not entirely necessary but for consumers it's massive. And none of this precludes continuing to support local slicers or free software! In fact, if you value FOSS in your product line (as Prusa… well, used to) they will be using and contributing to the same slicer you run on your workstation as they run on their servers.
- LegitShady 3y ago
  It need not be, but once these features are developed they almost certainly become mandatory, proprietary, and predatory.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  But it always is...
- JKCalhoun 3y ago
  Agree. Glowforge decided to make it mandatory and I have noped out of their product.
MegaDeKay 3y ago
Indeed. Critics of Bambu were all over them when their cloud-connected printers started "creating plastic objects without user intervention" due to a glitch [0]. In fact, the printer had to be connected to the cloud initially but they have since relaxed that. Having said that, a feature on Printables where you could order a part in the color of your choice and have it delivered to your door for a reasonable price could be a great source of income for them. Not everyone wants / has a 3D printer, but a lot of people could use a 3D printed part. [0] https://www.theregister.com/2023/08/24/bambu_lab_3d_printer_crazy/ https://www.theregister.com/2023/08/24/bambu_lab_3d_printer_...
- yetanother12345 3y ago
  > a lot of people could use a 3D printed part. We use 3D printers @work. Also, some colleagues have their own printers as well. Turns out, there is in fact a market for 3D printed parts already. You simply contact "the printer" with your sketch, get a price quote, and if acceptable you will get you part delivered by mail or whatever. I'm not sure where the marketplace is at, but you may want to try the usual suspects like fiverr etc.
TheCleric 3y ago
Agreed. I thought they had some good points up until this and immediately thought “I would RUN from a company that did this.” Also do people REALLY pay for models, let alone $10? I think I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve paid for a model to 3d print. Much easier to find an existing one, hack one, or just make my own.
- nmeofthestate 3y ago
  The icing on the cake is when he says that Chinese competitors implemented all this web-based stuff. So the big idea for Prusa to compete was to provide services that Chinese competitors can and did provide. I think if you're going to take to the internet to stick to boot into a company you need to do better than this embarrassing drivel.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    In other news, how that silly Linus Torvalds is floundering while Google makes bank.
- Fatnino 3y ago
  I can count on no hands the number of times I've paid for an stl.
- yetanother12345 3y ago
  I can confirm that there is indeed a market for (unprinted) models, just like there is a market for print-to-order parts. The market works such that you pay for the right to print the model even if the model as such has one license or another. Check markets like Fantasy, role-playing, games, if in doubt
  - TheCleric 3y ago
    That’s where I do most of my printing. I guess I’m usually okay with using the free prints of “generic goblin” rather than trying to get the absolutely best one I can. :)
sebazzz 3y ago
Nothing grim about it, it is not "enshittification" but actually offering value in exchange for a fee.
yetanother12345 3y ago
Question: Is a 3D printer "a printer"? The difficulty of substituting a 3D for a 2D etc would suggest not so. So, if we agree that somehow there is not much overlap in the 2D vs 3D printing businesses it would seem sane to suspect that business models adopted in one market might not all be suitable for another market.

drewdevault 3y ago

It need not be predatory, nor need it be mandatory for users to take advantage of these features, nor need it be proprietary or non-free.

Palomides 3y ago
I agree, but I think the incentives tend to push towards user hostile results. It's a small jump for the business mind to go from free cloud optional to free cloud only to paid features cloud to subscription only cloud, or selling plastic to only supporting their own plastic, and so on. Web services are so cheap and profitable that it feels like every business converges towards them now. I'd really rather buy from a company that makes money directly from selling good hardware (but certainly the hardware is useless without ongoing software development, and we're back to the original issue).
- drewdevault 3y ago
  Mainly I think that this temptation is circumvented with strong leadership and weak investors. That big VC money is a poison, but if you don't take it then you can focus on the product without so much of the risk.
  - kiba 3y ago
    AGPL cloud service would circumvent this issue rather than relying purely on strong leadership and company DNA.
    - drewdevault 3y ago
      True that!
- mulmen 3y ago
  > but certainly the hardware is useless without ongoing software development, and we're back to the original issue Why is this true though? Are 3D printers still evolving so quickly?
  - Palomides 3y ago
    All software requires maintenance, and there are continually ongoing software-driven print speed and quality improvements. That said, I could keep using the firmware and slicer software I have now until the hardware becomes unmaintainable (probably have to run it in a VM at some point), assuming no critical safety bugs.
    - mulmen 3y ago
      The desktop software has to keep up with the shifting sands of modern operating systems. But I don’t understand why the 3D printer itself needs software maintenance. It is just executing something like GCode right? How much does that really change? > All software requires maintenance Is this a law of nature or our youthful incompetence?
MarkusQ 3y ago
Then what's the point? It would take effort to develop these "features", the only benefit of which would be predatory. For example: > Bambu’s cloud slicer is a massive lost opportunity for Prusa. Bambu's cloud slicer is a complicated SaaS undertaking that incurs hosting and storage costs, yet doesn't (so far as I know) generate any revenue for Bambu Labs. So why do it, unless you want to make sure that a copy of whatever your product prints gets sent to and stored on a server in China? What's the "non-predatory" justification for this over local slicing?
- maximus-decimus 3y ago
  Some people want to be able to launch a print job from a remote location e.g. their living room with their 3d printers being in a workshop. Personally, I think that's a fire hazard, but I've definitely seen youtubers liking that feature.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    For 3D printers that's a manageable risk, for laser cutters I would highly recommend against unattended operation. They're fire starters first and laser cutters second, treat them as such.
- drewdevault 3y ago
  Businesses are more complex than just one facet. Not everything the business offers has to be a direct revenue driver; it builds trust with the brand and improves the experience by putting everything you need with respect to your printer in the same spot. Which of the following experiences delivers better value to the customer: 1. They buy a printer and can immediately slice and print stuff on the vendor's web app 2. They buy a printer and have to deal with the nightmare of installing and configuring Cura The former is more meaningful still when you consider how it can integrate with other parts of the value-add, such as Creality's model database, which can take you from the model's detail page to the slicer in just a click or two -- no download, no import into Cura, no setting up Octoprint or whatever. For enthusiasts the value-add is not entirely necessary but for consumers it's massive. And none of this precludes continuing to support local slicers or free software! In fact, if you value FOSS in your product line (as Prusa… well, used to) they will be using and contributing to the same slicer you run on your workstation as they run on their servers.
LegitShady 3y ago
It need not be, but once these features are developed they almost certainly become mandatory, proprietary, and predatory.
jacquesm 3y ago
But it always is...
JKCalhoun 3y ago
Agree. Glowforge decided to make it mandatory and I have noped out of their product.

MegaDeKay 3y ago

Indeed. Critics of Bambu were all over them when their cloud-connected printers started "creating plastic objects without user intervention" due to a glitch [0]. In fact, the printer had to be connected to the cloud initially but they have since relaxed that. Having said that, a feature on Printables where you could order a part in the color of your choice and have it delivered to your door for a reasonable price could be a great source of income for them. Not everyone wants / has a 3D printer, but a lot of people could use a 3D printed part. [0] https://www.theregister.com/2023/08/24/bambu_lab_3d_printer_crazy/ https://www.theregister.com/2023/08/24/bambu_lab_3d_printer_...

yetanother12345 3y ago
> a lot of people could use a 3D printed part. We use 3D printers @work. Also, some colleagues have their own printers as well. Turns out, there is in fact a market for 3D printed parts already. You simply contact "the printer" with your sketch, get a price quote, and if acceptable you will get you part delivered by mail or whatever. I'm not sure where the marketplace is at, but you may want to try the usual suspects like fiverr etc.

TheCleric 3y ago

Agreed. I thought they had some good points up until this and immediately thought “I would RUN from a company that did this.” Also do people REALLY pay for models, let alone $10? I think I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve paid for a model to 3d print. Much easier to find an existing one, hack one, or just make my own.

nmeofthestate 3y ago
The icing on the cake is when he says that Chinese competitors implemented all this web-based stuff. So the big idea for Prusa to compete was to provide services that Chinese competitors can and did provide. I think if you're going to take to the internet to stick to boot into a company you need to do better than this embarrassing drivel.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  In other news, how that silly Linus Torvalds is floundering while Google makes bank.
Fatnino 3y ago
I can count on no hands the number of times I've paid for an stl.
yetanother12345 3y ago
I can confirm that there is indeed a market for (unprinted) models, just like there is a market for print-to-order parts. The market works such that you pay for the right to print the model even if the model as such has one license or another. Check markets like Fantasy, role-playing, games, if in doubt
- TheCleric 3y ago
  That’s where I do most of my printing. I guess I’m usually okay with using the free prints of “generic goblin” rather than trying to get the absolutely best one I can. :)

sebazzz 3y ago

Nothing grim about it, it is not "enshittification" but actually offering value in exchange for a fee.

yetanother12345 3y ago

Question: Is a 3D printer "a printer"? The difficulty of substituting a 3D for a 2D etc would suggest not so. So, if we agree that somehow there is not much overlap in the 2D vs 3D printing businesses it would seem sane to suspect that business models adopted in one market might not all be suitable for another market.