5 ms·

Wonder if it's normal in China to underpay and/or delay payments to contractors - so the Chinese investors just brought their way of working to USA or if there'

Wonder if it's normal in China to underpay and/or delay payments to contractors - so the Chinese investors just brought their way of working to USA or if there's something else going on.

jdksmdbtbdnmsm 3y ago
[flagged]
- op00to 3y ago
  Did you say this just to troll, or can you back up your statement with facts?
  - boomboomsubban 3y ago
    As a starting place, Donald Trump is famous for it. https://www.foxnews.com/politics/dozens-of-lawsuits-accuse-trump-of-not-paying-his-bills-reports-claim https://www.foxnews.com/politics/dozens-of-lawsuits-accuse-t...
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - ipnon 3y ago
    The rule of law and civil courts specifically are much stronger in the US than PRC, although there are many ways that you can get screwed with contracts here too. A common saying is that every bankrupt contractor takes out another business.
    - jdksmdbtbdnmsm 3y ago
      There is a big difference between law and "rule of law." In the US, attorneys and courts are far out of reach for unpaid contractors without wealth.
      - google234123 3y ago
        There are cheap lawyers. Small claims court is almost free
        jdksmdbtbdnmsm 3y ago
        Small claims courts have limits often too low to justify the money and time and availability costs, which are all things that unpaid contractors without wealth do not have.
        acdha 3y ago
        Small claims court has very low limits. Beyond that, it’s very easy for a large company to make a lawsuit cost more than it’s worth - you’re paying court costs up front, they’re going to litigate every single detail to say that you didn’t complete everything (both to lower the total and to prevent you from being able to do full time work for someone else), and delay things hoping you’ll give up or make some mistake. It’s not super common but every freelancer I know has a client from hell story. The abusive ones get pretty good at calibrating the amount they can screw someone out of while still being only marginally worth the cost and effort of suing.
  - uoaei 3y ago
    Well for one thing, in the American system you have to bring a civil case against anyone who breaches contract, which in many cases is not worth the legal fees which means scammers know they can get away with screwing people over for just enough that they will get away with it.
    - gopher_space 3y ago
      If you take out a loan instead of paying cash the bank now has a vested interest in your build and will keep an eye on contractors to an extent.
  - Consultant32452 3y ago
    My anecdata is that I'm a contractor and customers regularly pay late, except in December. I have one customer who was 3 months late on payments at one point this year. Then in December they paid up for what they would normally have owed in January a month early to stick me with the tax bill. Every contractor I've ever talked to has similar stories and worse.
    - Scoundreller 3y ago
      I guess this is a fundamental different between accrual vs cash accounting. In accrual accounting, you would book the revenue when the service is provided and delaying/advancing a payment shouldn’t change the fiscal year it falls under. In Canada, most of the time you’re required to follow accrual accounting. I guess if you have the choice and expect routine delays to payments, cash accounting is the way to go.
      - borissk 3y ago
        And what if you do the work and never get payed? Sounds stupid to pay taxes over income one hasn't actually received.
        Scoundreller 3y ago
        You have allowances for doubtful accounts and/or bad debts. Also sounds stupid to game taxes by delaying/advancing payments.
    - op00to 3y ago
      Do American customers pay later than Canadians? Mexican? Russians?
      - Consultant32452 3y ago
        I only work in the states, but I've had customers who were owned abroad. Basically the same behavior. I'll add one note I forgot in my OP. The bigger, richer customers are more notorious for paying late. I wouldn't say I avoid the fortune 500 type companies, but I don't go after them.
  - jdksmdbtbdnmsm 3y ago
    >can you back up your statement with facts? Huh? My statement is the facts. What are you talking about?
    - em-bee 3y ago
      ok, you are making a factual claim. what the commenter is really asking for is evidence to back up that claim.
  - Scoundreller 3y ago
    It is a funny thing that I find in b2b vs. b2c. If I want to buy some component as a consumer, they’re going to take payment up-front or tell me to screw off if I ask for them to send first and get paid later. Meanwhile, receiving the product/service first and then net30 and such payment terms are common in North American business. I do wonder if business works the same way in other cultures or if they take the approach that consumers typically deal with.
    - em-bee 3y ago
      i heard a story from chinese friends about subcontractors that the large companies in china that contract them even help them to get loans so the subcontractor can actually do their work until they will get paid, and then use the payment to pay back the loan. like payday loans at large scale.
      - Scoundreller 3y ago
        Selling your account receivables is a thing. Often called “factoring”. No idea how common or unusual it is for the customer to help arrange it for the supplier: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factoring_(finance) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factoring_(finance)
        jdksmdbtbdnmsm 3y ago
        >Selling your account receivables is a thing. Huh? A thing? What is your point here?
- drewcoo 3y ago
  Why was that downvoted? I thought it was common knowledge that a bill isn't due until they send a pink one. Money in the bank or invested elsewhere makes more money while the payee waits. Even the things that can damage your business's credit rating for tardiness have an extra 4 week grace period before any score impact. Maybe the crowd here is more rule-adhering software geeks and less business-oriented.
  - borissk 3y ago
    Or maybe in the software business one's reputation costs a lot more than the tiny amount of profit one can make by delaying his contractor's payments.
aifooh7Keew6xoo 3y ago
My understanding was that a US owner contracted aspects of the facility construction and neglected to pay the contractors, then sold the completed facility to the Chinese investors. It sounds like the original owner's contractor is alleging that the Chinese investors are also not paying them for services at the mine, while the Chinese investors are claiming the contractor failed to deliver? It's not really clear from the article who is even ripping who off to me.
- quickthrower2 3y ago
  > It's not really clear from the article who is even ripping who off to me. Least scummy cryptocurrency story.
- mrb 3y ago
  My impression as well. It seems to be typical mismanagement of the mine's construction, or people disagreeing on contractual aspects, where the responsibilities stop, etc.
junofan 3y ago
It’s the other way round. See “getting the factory pregnant”—working with manufacturing partners in China and then delaying payment until after they’ve paid for your work to gain leverage over related work.
patrickhogan1 3y ago
Contractors and suppliers often face payment issues globally. In Texas, when contractors work on a property, they are entitled to lien rights. Normally, property transactions involve a title company. One of their roles is to ensure the clearance of liens and manage the escrow of funds, transferring the purchase money from the buyer to the seller once they have established clear title. Additionally, they provide title insurance to the new owner, guaranteeing a title free from encumbrances like construction liens. This process is crucial for safeguarding the interests of all parties involved in property transactions. Its hard to tell who is in the right without more facts. But it is clear the way the transaction was handled is part of the problem.
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  Conversely, Texas mechanics liens have little recourse when a property owner encounters a contractor acting in bad faith. I recently assisted a friend challenge an improper lien on their homestead in Dallas when a plumbing company quit the job halfway through because they couldn’t use their epoxy repair technique and walked away. The contractor filed the lien for the total amount agreed upon because state law makes it trivial to do, and it is an uphill battle to challenge a lien. It only worked out in the end because we had accumulated a paper trail via email and sms messages with the contractor, and reported them with said evidence to the state licensing apparatus. If engaging contractors in Texas for property work, get everything in writing and have an attorney familiar with construction law at the ready.
  - jmacd 3y ago
    I've experienced the same thing. In commercial projects in some places, the contractors actually just file liens right away "as a matter of practice". They automatically expire 60 (or some number of) days after the last day of work on the project, unless it is "perfected" by filing an actual lawsuit. At least that is the case in Canada. That seems to at least shift some of the cost and risk to the lien filer as they must pay for a lawyer, be ready to prosecute, etc.
    - 3y ago

Wonder if it's normal in China to underpay and/or delay payments to contractors - so the Chinese investors just brought their way of working to USA or if there's something else going on.

jdksmdbtbdnmsm 3y ago

[flagged]

op00to 3y ago
Did you say this just to troll, or can you back up your statement with facts?
- boomboomsubban 3y ago
  As a starting place, Donald Trump is famous for it. https://www.foxnews.com/politics/dozens-of-lawsuits-accuse-trump-of-not-paying-his-bills-reports-claim https://www.foxnews.com/politics/dozens-of-lawsuits-accuse-t...
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- ipnon 3y ago
  The rule of law and civil courts specifically are much stronger in the US than PRC, although there are many ways that you can get screwed with contracts here too. A common saying is that every bankrupt contractor takes out another business.
  - jdksmdbtbdnmsm 3y ago
    There is a big difference between law and "rule of law." In the US, attorneys and courts are far out of reach for unpaid contractors without wealth.
    - google234123 3y ago
      There are cheap lawyers. Small claims court is almost free
      - jdksmdbtbdnmsm 3y ago
        Small claims courts have limits often too low to justify the money and time and availability costs, which are all things that unpaid contractors without wealth do not have.
      - acdha 3y ago
        Small claims court has very low limits. Beyond that, it’s very easy for a large company to make a lawsuit cost more than it’s worth - you’re paying court costs up front, they’re going to litigate every single detail to say that you didn’t complete everything (both to lower the total and to prevent you from being able to do full time work for someone else), and delay things hoping you’ll give up or make some mistake. It’s not super common but every freelancer I know has a client from hell story. The abusive ones get pretty good at calibrating the amount they can screw someone out of while still being only marginally worth the cost and effort of suing.
- uoaei 3y ago
  Well for one thing, in the American system you have to bring a civil case against anyone who breaches contract, which in many cases is not worth the legal fees which means scammers know they can get away with screwing people over for just enough that they will get away with it.
  - gopher_space 3y ago
    If you take out a loan instead of paying cash the bank now has a vested interest in your build and will keep an eye on contractors to an extent.
- Consultant32452 3y ago
  My anecdata is that I'm a contractor and customers regularly pay late, except in December. I have one customer who was 3 months late on payments at one point this year. Then in December they paid up for what they would normally have owed in January a month early to stick me with the tax bill. Every contractor I've ever talked to has similar stories and worse.
  - Scoundreller 3y ago
    I guess this is a fundamental different between accrual vs cash accounting. In accrual accounting, you would book the revenue when the service is provided and delaying/advancing a payment shouldn’t change the fiscal year it falls under. In Canada, most of the time you’re required to follow accrual accounting. I guess if you have the choice and expect routine delays to payments, cash accounting is the way to go.
    - borissk 3y ago
      And what if you do the work and never get payed? Sounds stupid to pay taxes over income one hasn't actually received.
      - Scoundreller 3y ago
        You have allowances for doubtful accounts and/or bad debts. Also sounds stupid to game taxes by delaying/advancing payments.
  - op00to 3y ago
    Do American customers pay later than Canadians? Mexican? Russians?
    - Consultant32452 3y ago
      I only work in the states, but I've had customers who were owned abroad. Basically the same behavior. I'll add one note I forgot in my OP. The bigger, richer customers are more notorious for paying late. I wouldn't say I avoid the fortune 500 type companies, but I don't go after them.
- jdksmdbtbdnmsm 3y ago
  >can you back up your statement with facts? Huh? My statement is the facts. What are you talking about?
  - em-bee 3y ago
    ok, you are making a factual claim. what the commenter is really asking for is evidence to back up that claim.
- Scoundreller 3y ago
  It is a funny thing that I find in b2b vs. b2c. If I want to buy some component as a consumer, they’re going to take payment up-front or tell me to screw off if I ask for them to send first and get paid later. Meanwhile, receiving the product/service first and then net30 and such payment terms are common in North American business. I do wonder if business works the same way in other cultures or if they take the approach that consumers typically deal with.
  - em-bee 3y ago
    i heard a story from chinese friends about subcontractors that the large companies in china that contract them even help them to get loans so the subcontractor can actually do their work until they will get paid, and then use the payment to pay back the loan. like payday loans at large scale.
    - Scoundreller 3y ago
      Selling your account receivables is a thing. Often called “factoring”. No idea how common or unusual it is for the customer to help arrange it for the supplier: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factoring_(finance) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factoring_(finance)
      - jdksmdbtbdnmsm 3y ago
        >Selling your account receivables is a thing. Huh? A thing? What is your point here?
drewcoo 3y ago
Why was that downvoted? I thought it was common knowledge that a bill isn't due until they send a pink one. Money in the bank or invested elsewhere makes more money while the payee waits. Even the things that can damage your business's credit rating for tardiness have an extra 4 week grace period before any score impact. Maybe the crowd here is more rule-adhering software geeks and less business-oriented.
- borissk 3y ago
  Or maybe in the software business one's reputation costs a lot more than the tiny amount of profit one can make by delaying his contractor's payments.

aifooh7Keew6xoo 3y ago

My understanding was that a US owner contracted aspects of the facility construction and neglected to pay the contractors, then sold the completed facility to the Chinese investors. It sounds like the original owner's contractor is alleging that the Chinese investors are also not paying them for services at the mine, while the Chinese investors are claiming the contractor failed to deliver? It's not really clear from the article who is even ripping who off to me.

quickthrower2 3y ago
> It's not really clear from the article who is even ripping who off to me. Least scummy cryptocurrency story.
mrb 3y ago
My impression as well. It seems to be typical mismanagement of the mine's construction, or people disagreeing on contractual aspects, where the responsibilities stop, etc.

junofan 3y ago

It’s the other way round. See “getting the factory pregnant”—working with manufacturing partners in China and then delaying payment until after they’ve paid for your work to gain leverage over related work.

patrickhogan1 3y ago

Contractors and suppliers often face payment issues globally. In Texas, when contractors work on a property, they are entitled to lien rights. Normally, property transactions involve a title company. One of their roles is to ensure the clearance of liens and manage the escrow of funds, transferring the purchase money from the buyer to the seller once they have established clear title. Additionally, they provide title insurance to the new owner, guaranteeing a title free from encumbrances like construction liens. This process is crucial for safeguarding the interests of all parties involved in property transactions. Its hard to tell who is in the right without more facts. But it is clear the way the transaction was handled is part of the problem.

toomuchtodo 3y ago
Conversely, Texas mechanics liens have little recourse when a property owner encounters a contractor acting in bad faith. I recently assisted a friend challenge an improper lien on their homestead in Dallas when a plumbing company quit the job halfway through because they couldn’t use their epoxy repair technique and walked away. The contractor filed the lien for the total amount agreed upon because state law makes it trivial to do, and it is an uphill battle to challenge a lien. It only worked out in the end because we had accumulated a paper trail via email and sms messages with the contractor, and reported them with said evidence to the state licensing apparatus. If engaging contractors in Texas for property work, get everything in writing and have an attorney familiar with construction law at the ready.
- jmacd 3y ago
  I've experienced the same thing. In commercial projects in some places, the contractors actually just file liens right away "as a matter of practice". They automatically expire 60 (or some number of) days after the last day of work on the project, unless it is "perfected" by filing an actual lawsuit. At least that is the case in Canada. That seems to at least shift some of the cost and risk to the lien filer as they must pay for a lawyer, be ready to prosecute, etc.
  - 3y ago