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Nintendo Network shutdown – The beginning of the end

302 points by haunter 3y ago

Flux159 3y ago
This seems like it's only going to get worse many games need online services to function at all. Super Mario Maker as mentioned in the post is one of them, but there are countless others on 3DS and PC that won't function properly. Ideally it would be possible to archive the games (like ROMs or what the Internet Archive does for websites and files) and also the server / database so that the games could be playable in the future, but I doubt that Nintendo or any larger publisher would do that. I wonder if there's a solution for this in the short term or if these games and their data would be lost forever.
- acdha 3y ago
  I wish there was some way to tie it to copyright where if you want to lock the rights up, you have to provide the game in a playable form at a reasonable price. I’ve seen proposals which would implement that as a kind orphan works tax with a threshold so a small indie game wouldn’t be expected to provide unlimited support.
  - Racing0461 3y ago
    > tie it to copyright where if you want to lock the rights up, you have to provide the game in a playable form this or they lose the copyright.
  - henriquez 3y ago
    The DMCA allows reverse engineering of copy-protected code for abandonware. As a copyright holder you’re not necessarily obligated to maintain working game services, but if you sell a multiplayer game and abandon it, it’s basically free rein for others to make it work again.
    - acdha 3y ago
      > if you sell a multiplayer game and abandon it, it’s basically free rein for others to make it work again. The more functionality there is on the server (common for anti-piracy/cheating) the less likely that is to happen. I’d like to see that change, reflecting that the idea behind things like the DMCS preservation exceptions and copyright expiring is contributing to the public commons and that’s different for running code than earlier forms of media.
    - boppo1 3y ago
      So we can play ut24k online again? Someone could setup a master server list?
      - semiquaver 3y ago
        No. The exemption only applies to circumventing access controls related to authentication servers that gate access to single player modes. Duplicating online multiplayer functionality (which was proposed and rejected because of industry opposition) is not in scope of the exemption so would not be protected against liability. https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2015/10/victory-users-librarian-congress-renews-and-expands-protections-fair-uses https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2015/10/victory-users-libraria...
    - semiquaver 3y ago
      To clarify, the DMCA does no such thing. The exemptions you refer to are the result of the Librarian of Congress exercising a statutory “fail-safe” role to specify circumstances that the (otherwise very broad) anti-circumvention provisions in the DMCA will be construed not to apply to. https://copyright.gov/1201/2015/fedreg-publicinspectionFR.pdf https://copyright.gov/1201/2015/fedreg-publicinspectionFR.pd...
      - EvanAnderson 3y ago
        It's also important to note that exemptions granted under this mechanism expire after 3 years unless renewed. When the exemption expires the exempted activity becomes an infringing activity again.
  - advael 3y ago
    A tax small enough to not harm indie publishers is almost tautologically unlikely to affect big publishers at all. The incentives created by fines and taxes are greatly overestimated. For something like this to work, it needs to be achievable without the continued cooperation or even existence of the original business
    - nine_k 3y ago
      To the opposite, the tax should kick in if the operation is large enough. If your revenue from the game exceeds $10M, you should do some minimal continuity work. If it exceeds $100M, you should do much more serious continuity work.
      - advael 3y ago
        So you'd like to incentivise more obfuscation of revenue to boot? I think an effective remedy for this kind of situation can't just be fiscal, we need requirements to publish adequate technical specifications and strong IP carveouts to make it likely to move the needle. Forcing companies to maintain continuous support is a non-starter. We should instead focus on enabling unofficial support from outside the companies, and remove legal threats from those who choose to do so
        nine_k 3y ago
        Obfuscation of revenue is a really bad idea, all the way to a federal criminal investigation. The idea is that the continuity requirements should not be onerous, given the revenue, say, less than 1% of it, "a good problem to have". Publishing a reasonable spec would be a part of that.
        noirbot 3y ago
        Pretty sure that hasn't stopped Hollywood accounting for the last century, and I see no reason why EA can't pull off the same things that Warner Brothers has been doing.
  - r3trohack3r 3y ago
    I don’t know why this would be a tax? If you’re going to go down this path, why wouldn’t you just require that the title needs to be purchasable on a primary market and usable on hardware/software that is currently supported in order for a copyright to be enforceable. If I can’t purchase and enjoy a copyrighted work legally, the copyright is unenforceable. In response to sibling comments, I don’t know why you’d do a carve out for small and indie game studios. If you’re not actively offering your copyrighted content for sale in a primary market, it shouldn’t matter whether you are a big studio are a small studio. Let society take over archiving and sharing your work.
    - Affric 3y ago
      Artificial scarcity is a scourge but I think for some works, say where you only want them to be available in a specific time and place, then perhaps as the author of that work you have a right to enforce that, at least to the extent that others shouldn’t be able to say record a live performance and then sell it with some kind of rights later. All that is to say I think it’s slightly more complex than what can be contained in a single HN comment but agree with you in principle.
      - int_19h 3y ago
        This sounds like a feature rather than a bug to me, to be honest. If there's an official recording of said live public performance that is available, then copyright holds and third parties wouldn't be able to record and redistribute. OTOH if there is no official recording available, then I would argue that it is in the public interest to allow third party recordings to legally circulate, since otherwise that particular performance would just be lost altogether. If artists truly want their performance to be "in the moment" with no way for anyone else to see it, they can arrange for private performances where the audience can be bound by a contract above and beyond basic copyright; but I don't think we should be optimizing for this case.
        Affric 3y ago
        I don’t disagree. I am attempting to say a person shouldn’t be able to record someone else’s performance and distribute it for profit or post it on a streaming service and profit from the ads.
- pard68 3y ago
  The website that posted this post (Pretendo) is doing just this, sort of. They are working to RE the 3DS and WiiU online capabilities.
  - RajT88 3y ago
    Seeing the progress of Xlink Kai I have faith they will succeed. I hope one day there will be a precedent set for companies to open source the servers they are shutting down.
- dangus 3y ago
  I disagree that it will inevitably get worse, with the exception of games that explicitly games as a service. As the article points out, this whole system was basically a result of the infancy of online game services, especially for Nintendo. It's a quirky result of an architecture that is much less centralized than modern console game services. If you ask me, it's very unlikely that Nintendo will ever shut down the Switch eShop, because I don't think the Switch eShop will be replaced when its successor launches. It will be much more like the PS4 to PS5 transition where your account information and digital library stays the same. (By the way, the solution you are talking about is what the blog authors are working on)
  - daydream 3y ago
    I made a top-level comment before I saw yours wondering how they’ll handle Switch online services. And I think you’re right. If they have any sense, and it generally seems like Nintendo does, they’ll keep the Switch eshop running indefinitely. Hopefully they do the same with the other backend services supporting the Switch, but that is more questionable. They really should though.
- prmoustache 3y ago
  > Super Mario Maker What happens concretely if you start Super Mario Maker while the 3DS console is offline? Can't you play it on a plane?
bhpm 3y ago
I'm heartened, at least, to read that StreetPass will still work after the shutdown. This is such a fun feature, being able to see Mii's from strangers all around the world. Just having a stopover at an international airport was enough to fill my Mii queue with dozens of cool characters.
- mathgeek 3y ago
  I was big into the HomePass community until it stopped working, but fortunately folks have been working on StreetPass 2 as well, for those who enjoy the spoofing-at-home part of the community: https://gbatemp.net/threads/streetpass-2-rise-from-the-ashes.526749/ https://gbatemp.net/threads/streetpass-2-rise-from-the-ashes...
- zeta0134 3y ago
  This is almost certainly because Street Pass is device-to-device, based entirely on proximity to other users. There's no server to shut down, so Nintendo would have to go out of their way to turn it off by releasing some sort of update to have devices kill the feature on some date.
  - amlib 3y ago
    I'm surprised the 3DS hasn't been hacked trough this functionality. It would be an awesome opportunity to create some kind of worm that quickly spreads around the world and you also get to name it with a trendy name like "Fail Pass".
    - unleaded 3y ago
      That was discovered a few years ago but they reported it to Nintendo who patched it before people knew about it: https://mrnbayoh.github.io/36c3/ https://mrnbayoh.github.io/36c3/
    - naikrovek 3y ago
      Fortunately, small protocols like this are pretty easy to write securely if you sanity check all of your inputs and bail if anything is wrong. I don’t know the Mii format but it can’t be large, and the only arbitrary input there is the name, I believe. Nintendo themselves are pretty good at writing secure stuff; it’s usually libraries or 3rd party games which have been responsible for the software exploits in Nintendo software.
kohanz 3y ago
I just bought my kid a used Wii U for Christmas. If I only care about his ability to play games offline, should I be concerned?
- Tyr42 3y ago
  No I don't think so.
- throwing_away 3y ago
  https://wiiu.hacks.guide/ https://wiiu.hacks.guide/
- jpablo 3y ago
  no, nintendo ships complete playable games.
  - greeniskool 3y ago
    Animal Crossing: New Horizons was an unfortunate exception to this rule. Seeing them drip-feed features already present in the previous games doesn't bode well for the future of the franchise.
- godzillabrennus 3y ago
  The NAND issue is what to avoid. https://www.reddit.com/r/wiiu/comments/11q733p/whats_is_the_whole_nand_issue_and_why_is_it_bad/ https://www.reddit.com/r/wiiu/comments/11q733p/whats_is_the_...
  - kohanz 3y ago
    Thanks for this. Fortunately we got a white Wii U, which it sounds like shipped with Samsung nand and is unaffected by this issue.
- idonotknowwhy 3y ago
  Easy to jailbreak the WiiU if they lock you out of your games
GaggiX 3y ago
I hope there is/will be a backup of all the levels uploaded on Mario Maker or it will be an unfortunate loss and Nintendo does not care of course.
- charcircuit 3y ago
  Yes, they are all archived https://archive.org/details/super_mario_maker_courses_202105 https://archive.org/details/super_mario_maker_courses_202105
  - andrepd 3y ago
    Incredible!
  - amlib 3y ago
    Do they have one for smm2?
jaylittle 3y ago
This is one reason I'm over and done with proprietary consoles. So tired of shitty company's like Nintendo being able to call any kind of shot. They may still know how to make fun games and do that on accessible and reasonably priced hardware, but beyond that they are an objectionable and ass-backward company on so many levels. I vote with my dollar. I vote against Nintendo.
- 0cf8612b2e1e 3y ago
  Consoles are not the only place where this is happening. More PC games are requiring always-online access even for singleplayer content. User experience be damned. I just had to refrain from a Steam purchase because I saw that it requires the Origin launcher, an EA account, and is always online. For a singleplayer game. Madness.
  - hbn 3y ago
    I remember when SimCity 2013 launched and caused a massive controversy because it required a constant online connection in order to play the game. The Xbox One also had to do calls home every few days to allow you to play games you purchased before Microsoft backtracked when it caused bad PR for them. It only took a decade but now this stuff is just common practice and nobody cares about paying $100 for digital purchases that will be ripped away from them when some server is shut down in a few years. Honestly, physical games are kind of a bust at this point too. Many games are shipped with incomplete versions of the game on the disc, and you're required to download some of, if not majority of the game when you insert it. Hell, some games are sold in physical cases but you open them up and instead of getting a disc/cartridge you get a piece of paper with a download code.
- tombert 3y ago
  I don’t disagree in principal but what exactly is the alternative? Playing SuperTuxKart and Pingus or some other open source games all the time? I hate the “service-ification” of everything, but I think it’s a near-monopoly that’s kind of hard to avoid. There’s sites like GOG that give DRM-free versions of games, and I like GOG a lot, but it’s still fundamentally a proprietary service that could shut its doors down tomorrow. I know that I personally do not have all my GOG games backed up, and I am one of the rare people that has enough disk space to actually do that, so I doubt I am weird here.
daydream 3y ago
I wonder long will the backend infra supporting the Switch will last. Especially now that they’re selling download-only versions of the games. Online services for earlier consoles like the Wii were more basic, and IIRC in some cases were developed and maintained by third parties, not Nintendo themselves? I understand wanting to get rid of that overhead especially if it wasn’t driving incremental revenue. But now the Switch is more intimately tied to online services for buying games and add ons. The most customer-friendly approach would be to keep backend services running indefinitely. Basically consider your backend to be a platform like Windows or macOS and maintain and evolve it indefinitely, keeping older consoles alive as long as possible (and continuing the ongoing revenue stream from older consoles, even as it shrinks over time, to at least cover cost.) It seems like they have to do something like this to support downloadable games, at least with the online shop. I wonder how they’ll handle it. I read a rumor that the successor to the Switch is expected in 2024 or 2025. And we picked up a Switch a couple months ago and I chose to buy all games as digital download version. And I remember the backend for the Wii being shut down. So this has been on my mind recently.
- phone8675309 3y ago
  This is why I don't buy a console that doesn't have a functional jailbreak/softmod. You can't count on these companies to care about the consumer past the initial purchase. If you can jailbreak your console there are plenty of sites that preserve the released games that you can install after the online services are shut down.
  - makeitdouble 3y ago
    We've moved so far into the "you won't own anything" lane that it got me thinking back to how we deal with the rest of the world. For instance we actively dissuade people from taking photos during foreign trips or at the restaurant because they're supposed to be enjoying the experience, instead of viewing it trough a viewfinder. We haven't reached a point yet where people are arguing they should have a copy of the tiramisu recipe and backup access to the kitchen in case the restaurant shuts down and they can't have their tiramisu anymore. In some way, I wonder if most online games nowadays aren't closer to a tiramisu experience than something we are supposed to own. Fortnite for instance would be fundamentally about the experience of interacting with other players, the seasons system etc. and "owning" the game offline would be completely different. I still see RPGs types of games and fully offline playable games as something that should be priced differently and have a more standard ownership model. Things like Super Mario Maker mentionned in the article would be sitting in the middle. Also preservation efforts should continue on an academic and cultural standpoint, to at least leave some trail of what was happening in the gaming world during our time.
nektro 3y ago
then release the server source code and documentation and let the community run it. shutdowns with no extra release are unacceptable
slowhadoken 3y ago
The 3DS/Wii U eShop was defenseless against hackers towards the end. You could download games off it for free. It makes sense it’s closing down. The 3DS has also been around since the iPhone 4s.
- unleaded 3y ago
  FreeShop was patched in 2018
  - slowhadoken 3y ago
    That’s what Nintendo said but the eShop was still hackable.
    - unleaded 3y ago
      I don't think it was, there were unsuccessful attempts to revive FreeShop but you could always download CIAs from the web so yeah piracy was still rampant
      - slowhadoken 3y ago
        No one talked about it because they didn’t want normies to know. Might as well just use CIAs though.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
kmeisthax 3y ago
So... Nintendo made the same mistake twice? For context, the Wii used GameSpy under-the-hood. You weren't necessarily required to use it (as evidenced by EA shipping their own system) but most developers did. The reason why Wii online was shut down was specifically because GameSpy got bought out and started massively increasing their server hosting costs. Of course, that's a little different from the Rendez-Vous situation, because presumably Nintendo is hosting the servers and just put someone else's software on them. Still, it's strange that they built two different account systems - and I suspect part of the reason why they're shutting down the Wii U and 3DS systems is purely so that they don't have to support what sounds like a nightmare, anymore. Here's to hoping they built the Switch's online somewhat sort of correctly...
- Andrex 3y ago
  Maybe NIH syndrome has its uses. I don't blame Nintendo for using outside companies to handle online, it's never been their core competency. They're an entertainment company, not a tech company.
  - RockRobotRock 3y ago
    Their user hostility is a little ridiculous, though. I think Japan's galapagos syndrome comes into play a bit. Transferring your ACNH save was a nightmare before their cloud service came out, if I remember.
- OatmealDome 3y ago
  NEX is still used by many games on the Nintendo Switch, so I don't think it's another GameSpy situation. That being said, Nintendo has started using an in-house replacement system called "NPLN" in some of their more recent titles. Some examples include Splatoon 3 and Pokémon Scarlet/Violet. (They've shown no indication of converting older titles to the new system, however.)
wsve 3y ago
Now that we've seen this pattern emerge multiple times in the past (people losing a large chunk of their games due to the shutdown of the online catalog), I think it begs for a killer feature in the future: the ability to burn the games you've purchased from the online catalog onto write-once blank cartridges. Distributing games via physical copies is already a profit loss compared to distributing them via an online store, and distributing different cartridges per-game means even more supply issues for that specific game. Allowing players to do a one-time burn of the game they purchased to a blank cartridge would mean game companies could sell the game at full price digitally, make an extra sale on the cartridge, and gamers get the security of knowing that if servers were going to be shut down, they'd have the ability to burn the games they care about to physical media and be able to keep playing them. Win win for everyone.
- YoshiRulz 3y ago
  This is a great idea, but doesn't solve the problem of _game servers_ shutting down.
  - smaudet 3y ago
    Or even general availability of games... Purchase a game console, why shouldn't the store remain functional indefinitely? Yes, I get operating costs for your store front, but the standard should be, _if you are operating a market it should not be yours to control_. Monopolies are bad in all forms, game stores should be operable by anyone, period. And yes companies can protect themselves by disqualification of warranty for 3rd party stores, but that should be the consumer's choice, not some arbitrary CEOs decision. We should buy your product because it offers something worth buying, not because you needed a subscription to bump your numbers...
- havan_agrawal 3y ago
  I thought the whole point of download-only games is that they are not borrowable/lendable/resellable, so wouldn't allowing one-time only writes defeat the purpose?
Nifty3929 3y ago
Services should not, cannot, and will not continue past the point at which their value to the users is less than the cost of maintaining them. I don’t know if that’s the case here or not, but I would expect any service that doesn’t have a recurring fee associated to it, or is otherwise driving more value like games still being developed and sold for it, to continue very long. What would be the point?
thefz 3y ago
I wonder why people keep on giving money to this very toxic company. Vote with your wallet, people.
- npteljes 3y ago
  I do because I think of my gaming as a service. I see money out, and good time in. If I judge that the good time is worth the money, then I'll use the service, however they deliver it.
  - test6554 3y ago
    Take a finance/financial management class and you will start seeing all your expenses this way. It's really eye-opening.
- sevagh 3y ago
  Truly the Apple of the gaming console world.
ddtaylor 3y ago
This is why I don't buy Nintendo. Any time the kids want something from them we pick something from a brand that supports their past consoles instead, like Microsoft.
herbst 3y ago
I still own the first steam game I ever bought and sometimes play it. Nearly every game I own just works on any machine I own. Interface is my choice. At this point I could even argue that the console they offer has more bang per dollar. I don't really get why people willingly joined walled gardens like that.
- averageRoyalty 3y ago
  Steam is still a walled garden that can arbitrarily take away games at any time they want. Everyone who sells via Steam (including Valve) can and do sometimes turn off online services. Your garden might be wider, but there's still walls.
  - fluoridation 3y ago
    You can still back the games up, if necessary on external drives. If they have DRM it can be cracked. None of this is is possible on consoles (or if it is I've never heard of it).
    - smaudet 3y ago
      There are efforts, yes, but you will be surprised just how hostile the major players are towards this (and how big brother they are). If you know any of this the illusion that Microsoft (or Nintendo/Sony) are anything other than unethical profit mongers quickly disappears.
    - hbn 3y ago
      Many consoles have had their DRM cracked, some easier than others. I believe the Xbox 360 still requires soldering in a modchip, but the 3DS for example can be cracked easily and safely by loading some files onto an SD card and following a few steps.
      - fluoridation 3y ago
        As time goes on and console hardware becomes increasingly integrated, it'll become harder and harder to do hardware bypasses. As for the 3DS, that was pure luck caused by shitty system design, that allowed application bugs to cause ACE. There's no comparison with a platform that the user has direct and complete control over.
amelius 3y ago
May these game companies be the next victims of AI.
mnw21cam 3y ago
I don't understand this thing about shutting everything down. I have a VPS that costs me £1.20 per month, so at the very base level if it is a service that nobody is using, then its maintenance cost can be extraordinarily small. And if people are using it, and you have a significant cost because of that, then that's a clear indication that it's too early to shut it down. Seriously, internet server bandwidth is cheap these days, especially compared to when these services were first put in place. The only logical reason I can think of to shut these services down is to try to drive people towards new kit.
- b112 3y ago
  It's the security aspect. Nothing runs on an island, so there's the entire OS layer, libraries, and everything else. These require regular security upgrades, as vulnerabilities are discovered. Eventually, things are deprecated. Python, php and so on, have versions that are end of life. And so, you have to upgrade to an entire new stack. Often that requires upgrade to frameworks, and therefore code. And beyond that, there's uptime monitoring. Security alerts. Logs to be read. Bandwidth and bare metal costs are trivial, compared to labour to keep such things operational. I wouldn't be surprised if one of two things happened. Some piece is now obsolete, and that requires a large amount of work to upgrade. Maybe a partial code rewrite. Or someone key left. And training isn't seen as worth the effort, when #1 is close on the horizon.
  - smaudet 3y ago
    Usually the "security" operates on a similar principle, it's not actually any more secure. Upgrades are (usually) complete poison.
- exitb 3y ago
  I believe it’s actually quite expensive to keep a service in a working condition. You can’t just leave a system connected to the internet running for years with no oversight. But ultimately, your last sentence points out the most important reason - the companies want gamers to spend time and money on new games.
alkonaut 3y ago
So long as it’s very clear when I’m buying a product that it’s dependent on a service, I’m ok with my games and content disappearing and my devices being bricked after N years. It’s an environmental tragedy but at least I can choose to buy a different products. Games and devices need to come with some SLA that guarantees that it’s up for 99.9% of the time for the coming (day) 5 years. Added bonus if the producer promises that after the SLA period or in the case of the company becoming defunct, all server software will be made available publicly. But the key realization here is that when we “buy” games these days we just rent them. If we aren’t happy with that then we should simply not take part in the transaction.
major505 3y ago
And this is why I dont buy the Xbox Series S. Hell if I'm buying a videogame without disc reading capability.
- test6554 3y ago
  If you go into it fully aware expecting about $3000 every 6 years it's roughly $41 per month. That could include the system, the system refreshes, controllers, storage cards, game passes, online play, headset, etc.
BiteCode_dev 3y ago
At this points, it should be mandatory by law to open source the code of any online service your discontinue if people paid for a product that is tied to it.
CatWChainsaw 3y ago
Overall the gaming industry is a peek into what many media industries want your life to be like. You have access to their IP only as long as they want to support it, no local copy to keep forever, always online, kernel-level permissions to detect cheating software, DLC dribbles and microtransactions and lootboxes everywhere. It's problematic and only getting worse and I've given up on games for the most part. If aspects of culture can be memory-holed because people aren't allowed to retain copies (and I mean popular shows and movies, books, music, not just games), the only winning move is not to play. Abandonware should be open-sourced, copyrights should be capped at around a decade, and corporations should stop competing with each other to be the biggest asshole.

302 points by haunter 3y ago

This seems like it's only going to get worse many games need online services to function at all. Super Mario Maker as mentioned in the post is one of them, but there are countless others on 3DS and PC that won't function properly. Ideally it would be possible to archive the games (like ROMs or what the Internet Archive does for websites and files) and also the server / database so that the games could be playable in the future, but I doubt that Nintendo or any larger publisher would do that. I wonder if there's a solution for this in the short term or if these games and their data would be lost forever.

acdha 3y ago
I wish there was some way to tie it to copyright where if you want to lock the rights up, you have to provide the game in a playable form at a reasonable price. I’ve seen proposals which would implement that as a kind orphan works tax with a threshold so a small indie game wouldn’t be expected to provide unlimited support.
- Racing0461 3y ago
  > tie it to copyright where if you want to lock the rights up, you have to provide the game in a playable form this or they lose the copyright.
- henriquez 3y ago
  The DMCA allows reverse engineering of copy-protected code for abandonware. As a copyright holder you’re not necessarily obligated to maintain working game services, but if you sell a multiplayer game and abandon it, it’s basically free rein for others to make it work again.
  - acdha 3y ago
    > if you sell a multiplayer game and abandon it, it’s basically free rein for others to make it work again. The more functionality there is on the server (common for anti-piracy/cheating) the less likely that is to happen. I’d like to see that change, reflecting that the idea behind things like the DMCS preservation exceptions and copyright expiring is contributing to the public commons and that’s different for running code than earlier forms of media.
  - boppo1 3y ago
    So we can play ut24k online again? Someone could setup a master server list?
    - semiquaver 3y ago
      No. The exemption only applies to circumventing access controls related to authentication servers that gate access to single player modes. Duplicating online multiplayer functionality (which was proposed and rejected because of industry opposition) is not in scope of the exemption so would not be protected against liability. https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2015/10/victory-users-librarian-congress-renews-and-expands-protections-fair-uses https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2015/10/victory-users-libraria...
  - semiquaver 3y ago
    To clarify, the DMCA does no such thing. The exemptions you refer to are the result of the Librarian of Congress exercising a statutory “fail-safe” role to specify circumstances that the (otherwise very broad) anti-circumvention provisions in the DMCA will be construed not to apply to. https://copyright.gov/1201/2015/fedreg-publicinspectionFR.pdf https://copyright.gov/1201/2015/fedreg-publicinspectionFR.pd...
    - EvanAnderson 3y ago
      It's also important to note that exemptions granted under this mechanism expire after 3 years unless renewed. When the exemption expires the exempted activity becomes an infringing activity again.
- advael 3y ago
  A tax small enough to not harm indie publishers is almost tautologically unlikely to affect big publishers at all. The incentives created by fines and taxes are greatly overestimated. For something like this to work, it needs to be achievable without the continued cooperation or even existence of the original business
  - nine_k 3y ago
    To the opposite, the tax should kick in if the operation is large enough. If your revenue from the game exceeds $10M, you should do some minimal continuity work. If it exceeds $100M, you should do much more serious continuity work.
    - advael 3y ago
      So you'd like to incentivise more obfuscation of revenue to boot? I think an effective remedy for this kind of situation can't just be fiscal, we need requirements to publish adequate technical specifications and strong IP carveouts to make it likely to move the needle. Forcing companies to maintain continuous support is a non-starter. We should instead focus on enabling unofficial support from outside the companies, and remove legal threats from those who choose to do so
      - nine_k 3y ago
        Obfuscation of revenue is a really bad idea, all the way to a federal criminal investigation. The idea is that the continuity requirements should not be onerous, given the revenue, say, less than 1% of it, "a good problem to have". Publishing a reasonable spec would be a part of that.
        noirbot 3y ago
        Pretty sure that hasn't stopped Hollywood accounting for the last century, and I see no reason why EA can't pull off the same things that Warner Brothers has been doing.
- r3trohack3r 3y ago
  I don’t know why this would be a tax? If you’re going to go down this path, why wouldn’t you just require that the title needs to be purchasable on a primary market and usable on hardware/software that is currently supported in order for a copyright to be enforceable. If I can’t purchase and enjoy a copyrighted work legally, the copyright is unenforceable. In response to sibling comments, I don’t know why you’d do a carve out for small and indie game studios. If you’re not actively offering your copyrighted content for sale in a primary market, it shouldn’t matter whether you are a big studio are a small studio. Let society take over archiving and sharing your work.
  - Affric 3y ago
    Artificial scarcity is a scourge but I think for some works, say where you only want them to be available in a specific time and place, then perhaps as the author of that work you have a right to enforce that, at least to the extent that others shouldn’t be able to say record a live performance and then sell it with some kind of rights later. All that is to say I think it’s slightly more complex than what can be contained in a single HN comment but agree with you in principle.
    - int_19h 3y ago
      This sounds like a feature rather than a bug to me, to be honest. If there's an official recording of said live public performance that is available, then copyright holds and third parties wouldn't be able to record and redistribute. OTOH if there is no official recording available, then I would argue that it is in the public interest to allow third party recordings to legally circulate, since otherwise that particular performance would just be lost altogether. If artists truly want their performance to be "in the moment" with no way for anyone else to see it, they can arrange for private performances where the audience can be bound by a contract above and beyond basic copyright; but I don't think we should be optimizing for this case.
      - Affric 3y ago
        I don’t disagree. I am attempting to say a person shouldn’t be able to record someone else’s performance and distribute it for profit or post it on a streaming service and profit from the ads.
pard68 3y ago
The website that posted this post (Pretendo) is doing just this, sort of. They are working to RE the 3DS and WiiU online capabilities.
- RajT88 3y ago
  Seeing the progress of Xlink Kai I have faith they will succeed. I hope one day there will be a precedent set for companies to open source the servers they are shutting down.
dangus 3y ago
I disagree that it will inevitably get worse, with the exception of games that explicitly games as a service. As the article points out, this whole system was basically a result of the infancy of online game services, especially for Nintendo. It's a quirky result of an architecture that is much less centralized than modern console game services. If you ask me, it's very unlikely that Nintendo will ever shut down the Switch eShop, because I don't think the Switch eShop will be replaced when its successor launches. It will be much more like the PS4 to PS5 transition where your account information and digital library stays the same. (By the way, the solution you are talking about is what the blog authors are working on)
- daydream 3y ago
  I made a top-level comment before I saw yours wondering how they’ll handle Switch online services. And I think you’re right. If they have any sense, and it generally seems like Nintendo does, they’ll keep the Switch eshop running indefinitely. Hopefully they do the same with the other backend services supporting the Switch, but that is more questionable. They really should though.
prmoustache 3y ago
> Super Mario Maker What happens concretely if you start Super Mario Maker while the 3DS console is offline? Can't you play it on a plane?

bhpm 3y ago

I'm heartened, at least, to read that StreetPass will still work after the shutdown. This is such a fun feature, being able to see Mii's from strangers all around the world. Just having a stopover at an international airport was enough to fill my Mii queue with dozens of cool characters.

mathgeek 3y ago
I was big into the HomePass community until it stopped working, but fortunately folks have been working on StreetPass 2 as well, for those who enjoy the spoofing-at-home part of the community: https://gbatemp.net/threads/streetpass-2-rise-from-the-ashes.526749/ https://gbatemp.net/threads/streetpass-2-rise-from-the-ashes...
zeta0134 3y ago
This is almost certainly because Street Pass is device-to-device, based entirely on proximity to other users. There's no server to shut down, so Nintendo would have to go out of their way to turn it off by releasing some sort of update to have devices kill the feature on some date.
- amlib 3y ago
  I'm surprised the 3DS hasn't been hacked trough this functionality. It would be an awesome opportunity to create some kind of worm that quickly spreads around the world and you also get to name it with a trendy name like "Fail Pass".
  - unleaded 3y ago
    That was discovered a few years ago but they reported it to Nintendo who patched it before people knew about it: https://mrnbayoh.github.io/36c3/ https://mrnbayoh.github.io/36c3/
  - naikrovek 3y ago
    Fortunately, small protocols like this are pretty easy to write securely if you sanity check all of your inputs and bail if anything is wrong. I don’t know the Mii format but it can’t be large, and the only arbitrary input there is the name, I believe. Nintendo themselves are pretty good at writing secure stuff; it’s usually libraries or 3rd party games which have been responsible for the software exploits in Nintendo software.

kohanz 3y ago

I just bought my kid a used Wii U for Christmas. If I only care about his ability to play games offline, should I be concerned?

Tyr42 3y ago
No I don't think so.
throwing_away 3y ago
https://wiiu.hacks.guide/ https://wiiu.hacks.guide/
jpablo 3y ago
no, nintendo ships complete playable games.
- greeniskool 3y ago
  Animal Crossing: New Horizons was an unfortunate exception to this rule. Seeing them drip-feed features already present in the previous games doesn't bode well for the future of the franchise.
godzillabrennus 3y ago
The NAND issue is what to avoid. https://www.reddit.com/r/wiiu/comments/11q733p/whats_is_the_whole_nand_issue_and_why_is_it_bad/ https://www.reddit.com/r/wiiu/comments/11q733p/whats_is_the_...
- kohanz 3y ago
  Thanks for this. Fortunately we got a white Wii U, which it sounds like shipped with Samsung nand and is unaffected by this issue.
idonotknowwhy 3y ago
Easy to jailbreak the WiiU if they lock you out of your games

GaggiX 3y ago

I hope there is/will be a backup of all the levels uploaded on Mario Maker or it will be an unfortunate loss and Nintendo does not care of course.

charcircuit 3y ago
Yes, they are all archived https://archive.org/details/super_mario_maker_courses_202105 https://archive.org/details/super_mario_maker_courses_202105
- andrepd 3y ago
  Incredible!
- amlib 3y ago
  Do they have one for smm2?

jaylittle 3y ago

This is one reason I'm over and done with proprietary consoles. So tired of shitty company's like Nintendo being able to call any kind of shot. They may still know how to make fun games and do that on accessible and reasonably priced hardware, but beyond that they are an objectionable and ass-backward company on so many levels. I vote with my dollar. I vote against Nintendo.

0cf8612b2e1e 3y ago
Consoles are not the only place where this is happening. More PC games are requiring always-online access even for singleplayer content. User experience be damned. I just had to refrain from a Steam purchase because I saw that it requires the Origin launcher, an EA account, and is always online. For a singleplayer game. Madness.
- hbn 3y ago
  I remember when SimCity 2013 launched and caused a massive controversy because it required a constant online connection in order to play the game. The Xbox One also had to do calls home every few days to allow you to play games you purchased before Microsoft backtracked when it caused bad PR for them. It only took a decade but now this stuff is just common practice and nobody cares about paying $100 for digital purchases that will be ripped away from them when some server is shut down in a few years. Honestly, physical games are kind of a bust at this point too. Many games are shipped with incomplete versions of the game on the disc, and you're required to download some of, if not majority of the game when you insert it. Hell, some games are sold in physical cases but you open them up and instead of getting a disc/cartridge you get a piece of paper with a download code.
tombert 3y ago
I don’t disagree in principal but what exactly is the alternative? Playing SuperTuxKart and Pingus or some other open source games all the time? I hate the “service-ification” of everything, but I think it’s a near-monopoly that’s kind of hard to avoid. There’s sites like GOG that give DRM-free versions of games, and I like GOG a lot, but it’s still fundamentally a proprietary service that could shut its doors down tomorrow. I know that I personally do not have all my GOG games backed up, and I am one of the rare people that has enough disk space to actually do that, so I doubt I am weird here.

daydream 3y ago

I wonder long will the backend infra supporting the Switch will last. Especially now that they’re selling download-only versions of the games. Online services for earlier consoles like the Wii were more basic, and IIRC in some cases were developed and maintained by third parties, not Nintendo themselves? I understand wanting to get rid of that overhead especially if it wasn’t driving incremental revenue. But now the Switch is more intimately tied to online services for buying games and add ons. The most customer-friendly approach would be to keep backend services running indefinitely. Basically consider your backend to be a platform like Windows or macOS and maintain and evolve it indefinitely, keeping older consoles alive as long as possible (and continuing the ongoing revenue stream from older consoles, even as it shrinks over time, to at least cover cost.) It seems like they have to do something like this to support downloadable games, at least with the online shop. I wonder how they’ll handle it. I read a rumor that the successor to the Switch is expected in 2024 or 2025. And we picked up a Switch a couple months ago and I chose to buy all games as digital download version. And I remember the backend for the Wii being shut down. So this has been on my mind recently.

phone8675309 3y ago
This is why I don't buy a console that doesn't have a functional jailbreak/softmod. You can't count on these companies to care about the consumer past the initial purchase. If you can jailbreak your console there are plenty of sites that preserve the released games that you can install after the online services are shut down.
- makeitdouble 3y ago
  We've moved so far into the "you won't own anything" lane that it got me thinking back to how we deal with the rest of the world. For instance we actively dissuade people from taking photos during foreign trips or at the restaurant because they're supposed to be enjoying the experience, instead of viewing it trough a viewfinder. We haven't reached a point yet where people are arguing they should have a copy of the tiramisu recipe and backup access to the kitchen in case the restaurant shuts down and they can't have their tiramisu anymore. In some way, I wonder if most online games nowadays aren't closer to a tiramisu experience than something we are supposed to own. Fortnite for instance would be fundamentally about the experience of interacting with other players, the seasons system etc. and "owning" the game offline would be completely different. I still see RPGs types of games and fully offline playable games as something that should be priced differently and have a more standard ownership model. Things like Super Mario Maker mentionned in the article would be sitting in the middle. Also preservation efforts should continue on an academic and cultural standpoint, to at least leave some trail of what was happening in the gaming world during our time.

nektro 3y ago

then release the server source code and documentation and let the community run it. shutdowns with no extra release are unacceptable

slowhadoken 3y ago

The 3DS/Wii U eShop was defenseless against hackers towards the end. You could download games off it for free. It makes sense it’s closing down. The 3DS has also been around since the iPhone 4s.

unleaded 3y ago
FreeShop was patched in 2018
- slowhadoken 3y ago
  That’s what Nintendo said but the eShop was still hackable.
  - unleaded 3y ago
    I don't think it was, there were unsuccessful attempts to revive FreeShop but you could always download CIAs from the web so yeah piracy was still rampant
    - slowhadoken 3y ago
      No one talked about it because they didn’t want normies to know. Might as well just use CIAs though.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

kmeisthax 3y ago

So... Nintendo made the same mistake twice? For context, the Wii used GameSpy under-the-hood. You weren't necessarily required to use it (as evidenced by EA shipping their own system) but most developers did. The reason why Wii online was shut down was specifically because GameSpy got bought out and started massively increasing their server hosting costs. Of course, that's a little different from the Rendez-Vous situation, because presumably Nintendo is hosting the servers and just put someone else's software on them. Still, it's strange that they built two different account systems - and I suspect part of the reason why they're shutting down the Wii U and 3DS systems is purely so that they don't have to support what sounds like a nightmare, anymore. Here's to hoping they built the Switch's online somewhat sort of correctly...

Andrex 3y ago
Maybe NIH syndrome has its uses. I don't blame Nintendo for using outside companies to handle online, it's never been their core competency. They're an entertainment company, not a tech company.
- RockRobotRock 3y ago
  Their user hostility is a little ridiculous, though. I think Japan's galapagos syndrome comes into play a bit. Transferring your ACNH save was a nightmare before their cloud service came out, if I remember.
OatmealDome 3y ago
NEX is still used by many games on the Nintendo Switch, so I don't think it's another GameSpy situation. That being said, Nintendo has started using an in-house replacement system called "NPLN" in some of their more recent titles. Some examples include Splatoon 3 and Pokémon Scarlet/Violet. (They've shown no indication of converting older titles to the new system, however.)

wsve 3y ago

Now that we've seen this pattern emerge multiple times in the past (people losing a large chunk of their games due to the shutdown of the online catalog), I think it begs for a killer feature in the future: the ability to burn the games you've purchased from the online catalog onto write-once blank cartridges. Distributing games via physical copies is already a profit loss compared to distributing them via an online store, and distributing different cartridges per-game means even more supply issues for that specific game. Allowing players to do a one-time burn of the game they purchased to a blank cartridge would mean game companies could sell the game at full price digitally, make an extra sale on the cartridge, and gamers get the security of knowing that if servers were going to be shut down, they'd have the ability to burn the games they care about to physical media and be able to keep playing them. Win win for everyone.

YoshiRulz 3y ago
This is a great idea, but doesn't solve the problem of _game servers_ shutting down.
- smaudet 3y ago
  Or even general availability of games... Purchase a game console, why shouldn't the store remain functional indefinitely? Yes, I get operating costs for your store front, but the standard should be, _if you are operating a market it should not be yours to control_. Monopolies are bad in all forms, game stores should be operable by anyone, period. And yes companies can protect themselves by disqualification of warranty for 3rd party stores, but that should be the consumer's choice, not some arbitrary CEOs decision. We should buy your product because it offers something worth buying, not because you needed a subscription to bump your numbers...
havan_agrawal 3y ago
I thought the whole point of download-only games is that they are not borrowable/lendable/resellable, so wouldn't allowing one-time only writes defeat the purpose?

Nifty3929 3y ago

Services should not, cannot, and will not continue past the point at which their value to the users is less than the cost of maintaining them. I don’t know if that’s the case here or not, but I would expect any service that doesn’t have a recurring fee associated to it, or is otherwise driving more value like games still being developed and sold for it, to continue very long. What would be the point?

thefz 3y ago

I wonder why people keep on giving money to this very toxic company. Vote with your wallet, people.

npteljes 3y ago
I do because I think of my gaming as a service. I see money out, and good time in. If I judge that the good time is worth the money, then I'll use the service, however they deliver it.
- test6554 3y ago
  Take a finance/financial management class and you will start seeing all your expenses this way. It's really eye-opening.
sevagh 3y ago
Truly the Apple of the gaming console world.

ddtaylor 3y ago

This is why I don't buy Nintendo. Any time the kids want something from them we pick something from a brand that supports their past consoles instead, like Microsoft.

herbst 3y ago

I still own the first steam game I ever bought and sometimes play it. Nearly every game I own just works on any machine I own. Interface is my choice. At this point I could even argue that the console they offer has more bang per dollar. I don't really get why people willingly joined walled gardens like that.

averageRoyalty 3y ago
Steam is still a walled garden that can arbitrarily take away games at any time they want. Everyone who sells via Steam (including Valve) can and do sometimes turn off online services. Your garden might be wider, but there's still walls.
- fluoridation 3y ago
  You can still back the games up, if necessary on external drives. If they have DRM it can be cracked. None of this is is possible on consoles (or if it is I've never heard of it).
  - smaudet 3y ago
    There are efforts, yes, but you will be surprised just how hostile the major players are towards this (and how big brother they are). If you know any of this the illusion that Microsoft (or Nintendo/Sony) are anything other than unethical profit mongers quickly disappears.
  - hbn 3y ago
    Many consoles have had their DRM cracked, some easier than others. I believe the Xbox 360 still requires soldering in a modchip, but the 3DS for example can be cracked easily and safely by loading some files onto an SD card and following a few steps.
    - fluoridation 3y ago
      As time goes on and console hardware becomes increasingly integrated, it'll become harder and harder to do hardware bypasses. As for the 3DS, that was pure luck caused by shitty system design, that allowed application bugs to cause ACE. There's no comparison with a platform that the user has direct and complete control over.

amelius 3y ago

May these game companies be the next victims of AI.

mnw21cam 3y ago

I don't understand this thing about shutting everything down. I have a VPS that costs me £1.20 per month, so at the very base level if it is a service that nobody is using, then its maintenance cost can be extraordinarily small. And if people are using it, and you have a significant cost because of that, then that's a clear indication that it's too early to shut it down. Seriously, internet server bandwidth is cheap these days, especially compared to when these services were first put in place. The only logical reason I can think of to shut these services down is to try to drive people towards new kit.

b112 3y ago
It's the security aspect. Nothing runs on an island, so there's the entire OS layer, libraries, and everything else. These require regular security upgrades, as vulnerabilities are discovered. Eventually, things are deprecated. Python, php and so on, have versions that are end of life. And so, you have to upgrade to an entire new stack. Often that requires upgrade to frameworks, and therefore code. And beyond that, there's uptime monitoring. Security alerts. Logs to be read. Bandwidth and bare metal costs are trivial, compared to labour to keep such things operational. I wouldn't be surprised if one of two things happened. Some piece is now obsolete, and that requires a large amount of work to upgrade. Maybe a partial code rewrite. Or someone key left. And training isn't seen as worth the effort, when #1 is close on the horizon.
- smaudet 3y ago
  Usually the "security" operates on a similar principle, it's not actually any more secure. Upgrades are (usually) complete poison.
exitb 3y ago
I believe it’s actually quite expensive to keep a service in a working condition. You can’t just leave a system connected to the internet running for years with no oversight. But ultimately, your last sentence points out the most important reason - the companies want gamers to spend time and money on new games.

alkonaut 3y ago

So long as it’s very clear when I’m buying a product that it’s dependent on a service, I’m ok with my games and content disappearing and my devices being bricked after N years. It’s an environmental tragedy but at least I can choose to buy a different products. Games and devices need to come with some SLA that guarantees that it’s up for 99.9% of the time for the coming (day) 5 years. Added bonus if the producer promises that after the SLA period or in the case of the company becoming defunct, all server software will be made available publicly. But the key realization here is that when we “buy” games these days we just rent them. If we aren’t happy with that then we should simply not take part in the transaction.

major505 3y ago

And this is why I dont buy the Xbox Series S. Hell if I'm buying a videogame without disc reading capability.

test6554 3y ago
If you go into it fully aware expecting about $3000 every 6 years it's roughly $41 per month. That could include the system, the system refreshes, controllers, storage cards, game passes, online play, headset, etc.

BiteCode_dev 3y ago

At this points, it should be mandatory by law to open source the code of any online service your discontinue if people paid for a product that is tied to it.

CatWChainsaw 3y ago

Overall the gaming industry is a peek into what many media industries want your life to be like. You have access to their IP only as long as they want to support it, no local copy to keep forever, always online, kernel-level permissions to detect cheating software, DLC dribbles and microtransactions and lootboxes everywhere. It's problematic and only getting worse and I've given up on games for the most part. If aspects of culture can be memory-holed because people aren't allowed to retain copies (and I mean popular shows and movies, books, music, not just games), the only winning move is not to play. Abandonware should be open-sourced, copyrights should be capped at around a decade, and corporations should stop competing with each other to be the biggest asshole.