7 ms·

Cummins pickup truck engines tricked air quality controls, feds say

175 points by rokkitmensch 3y ago

causality0 3y ago
It's sad that the largest ever penalty is still less money than the company made off the crime.
gmane 3y ago
This isn't even the first time Cummins has been hit with the largest settlement for emissions controls defeat devices![0] [0] https://web.archive.org/web/20151002043823/http://www2.epa.gov/enforcement/mack-trucks-diesel-engine-settlement https://web.archive.org/web/20151002043823/http://www2.epa.g...
- chewmieser 3y ago
  Wow, and then had the audacity to continue the practice beyond that? That fine should be significantly more severe…
  - distortionfield 3y ago
    It's America, you get a bonus for this behavior, not a fine.
lifeisstillgood 3y ago
VW did it Renault probably did it These guys probably did I think there was a point where regulators said "diesel puts out lung damaging levels of pollutants killing X people a year. We shall either ban diesel engines ... or make manufacturers make diesel engines that don't pollute that badly" So they set a safe level. And no manufacturer has been able to achieve the technology to meet that level. I know some manufacturers claim they can, but honestly that's like a cyclist claiming that they won the Tour De France without drugs. After so many cyclists have been caught (about half since 1990) it's really hard to take the drug free claim seriously - just as it's hard to take the "our diesel engine does it really honestly guv"
- chrismartin 3y ago
  One more reason it's time to transition away from burning stuff to produce energy.
  - AmVess 3y ago
    Transition to what, exactly? Pixie dust? Unicorn farts? There's nothing to transition to.
    - thomasmg 3y ago
      Elon Musk used an image of a farting unicorn to promote Tesla.
    - wannacboatmovie 3y ago
      Not to mention that they're often burning stuff behind the curtain to power the non-burning stuff. As long as it's out of sight it's okay.
      - Nextgrid 3y ago
        It's still an improvement if the large place that burns stuff extracts more energy than tons of small places burning stuff. Not to mention, it's easier to then replace the few large places that burn stuff with something cleaner than having to replace every single car on the road again.
      - recursive 3y ago
        There are lot of parts in the network. No one claimed they would all make a step transition overnight. Part of that is to replace parts of the network which continue to work, while being capable moving the other parts forward.
    - Gigachad 3y ago
      From my experience, any car at all or even a bicycle could replace the majority of trips I see these trucks doing.
Syonyk 3y ago
Is there any detailed information anyone can find on what they allegedly did, at a technical level? "Defeat device" is such a broad category of term that it's useless for understanding the details of what it's claimed they did. The Justice.gov writeup [0] isn't any better. > The company allegedly installed defeat devices on 630,000 model year 2013 to 2019 RAM 2500 and 3500 pickup truck engines. The company also allegedly installed undisclosed auxiliary emission control devices on 330,000 model year 2019 to 2023 RAM 2500 and 3500 pickup truck engines. I'd be interested in reading technical details on what, exactly, they did or didn't supposedly do. [0]: https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/statement-attorney-general-merrick-garland-agreement-principle-cummins-settle-alleged https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/statement-attorney-general-me...
- kotaKat 3y ago
  Best I have off hand is one of the example recall notices which just says "software update" for the emissions calibration: https://www.chrysler.com/universal/webselfservice/pdf/VB6.pdf https://www.chrysler.com/universal/webselfservice/pdf/VB6.pd...
- Guvante 3y ago
  IIRC other manufacturers would detect the usage pattern of tests and run cleaner as a form of bypass. Similarly you could lie on the OC2 response.
  - Syonyk 3y ago
    Sure, I know what other manufacturers did. I want to know the technical details of what Cummins allegedly did "enough that they're not arguing a massive fine, while claiming they didn't do it on purpose." Claiming they "installed defeat devices" isn't nearly enough detail. How did it alter either the engine combustion cycle or the emissions control system behavior?
    - rightbyte 3y ago
      Who knows? I believe VW chief engineers got in jail not knowing what their subordinates did. I really tried to understand the VW scandal but I could not.
throwup238 3y ago
What's so much worse is that this isn't the first time they've been caught doing this shit: https://www.epa.gov/enforcement/cummins-engine-company-diesel-engine-clean-air-act-settlement https://www.epa.gov/enforcement/cummins-engine-company-diese... That enforcement action is from 1998. There was even a consent decree but they've been doing this bullshit for a quarter century. It isn't a small isolated incident, it's literally built into the culture of the company. We need a corporate death penalty for repeat offenders like this.
stefan_ 3y ago
US company so a penalty that is less than the profit, "no wrongdoing admitted" (its a defeat device!), no criminal investigation (there would be precedent), press release goes out on the Friday before Christmas.
- cyanydeez 3y ago
  companies are voting blocs, so , you know, democracy inaction.
DueDilligence 3y ago
[dead]
sottol 3y ago
Interesting that it's called systematic tricking when Cummins does it, with VW it's just criminal fraud?
- AmVess 3y ago
  Harder for VW to cut checks to the people who matter.
- TheLoafOfBread 3y ago
  US company caught by US regulator vs European company caught by US regulators. And then Americans are surprised when Europe does not play ball with US big tech industry in EU.
Hamuko 3y ago
I'm already going to wager that they're not going to be shat on quite as hard as Volkswagen was, just like Fiat-Chrysler wasn't.
BugsJustFindMe 3y ago
> The company does not admit wrongdoing and says no one in the company acted in bad faith Fuck me, though, right? I know the government can't do it, but this kind of statement itself should merit some kind of additional punishment.
- junofan 3y ago
  I mean, we don’t have any details yet. What if the “defeat device” is something like “if $SENSOR is reading a little high, turn on service light and operate as normal otherwise” As a customer I’d be pissed if my truck wouldn’t run.
  - e28eta 3y ago
    Not going to pass an emissions test with a service light on. But I agree that more details are necessary before we can know that the statement is false.
- tantalor 3y ago
  That's par for a settlement
draw_down 3y ago
[dead]
JoshTko 3y ago
It's about time these offenses are considered crimes against humanity and have mandatory criminal prosecution at executive levels.
arrosenberg 3y ago
Until we send the executives to jail, the fraud will continue.
- thuuuomas 3y ago
  Here’s my pithy slogan advocating this - If your safety systems fail, we pierce the corporate veil.
gnabgib 3y ago
Discussed 3 hours ago: Cummins Fined $1.6B for Diesel Defeat Devices in 630K RAM Trucks[0] (80 points, 124 comments). Maybe don't need both? [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38746664 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38746664
orenlindsey 3y ago
There's no way to make a diesel or gasoline car that's not actively bad for the environment. Electric is the only way. (And maybe hydrogen, but that's quite a ways off)
- cyanydeez 3y ago
  unfortunately, saving the environment is currently a luxury item.
- Syonyk 3y ago
  An electric car is bad for the environment (described generally, not in the laser-focused "CO2 emissions are the only thing that matters!" modern sense) in almost all the same ways an ICE vehicle is, just with a reduction in runtime carbon emissions, and with quite a bit more mining going into the raw materials. Hydrogen, meanwhile, is nonsensical in every way you care to look at the problem, unless you look at it through the lens of "petrochemical suppliers who want to ensure that a future vehicle fleet needs to fill up at stations they supply with fuel that can be rapidly delivered in a 5 minute window." And maybe shipping, but even there, I think metal-air batteries that are smelted for recharging are likely to work better. And that's before you get into what a devious little pain in the ass hydrogen is to deal with at a chemical/technical level.
  - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
    > An electric car is bad for the environment (described generally, not in the laser-focused "CO2 emissions are the only thing that matters!" modern sense) in almost all the same ways an ICE vehicle is, just with a reduction in runtime carbon emissions No it isn't. You can charge them entirely with renewable sources (or nuclear), reducing traditional air pollutants in addition to CO2. This is even true when still using fossil fuel power plants, which emit fewer pollutants per unit energy than small engines. Electric cars use regenerative braking, reducing the use of friction braking that releases brake dust into the environment. > and with quite a bit more mining going into the raw materials. Electric cars are only marginally heavier than gasoline cars because electric motors are light and the batteries take the place of not only the fuel tank but the entire powertrain and emissions equipment. It's not obvious how mining two tons of raw materials is dramatically different than mining 1.9 tons of raw materials, and in any event the raw materials can be recycled from older electric cars once there are older electric cars to recycle.
pardoned_turkey 3y ago
Is there any article explaining what they actually did, or are alleged to have done? With the VW scandal, there was a fairly in-depth discussion of the technical aspects of it. But all the articles about Cummins seem exceedingly vague. IIRC, VW had code to detect emissions testing and reduce performance at that time. What did Cummins do?
thelastgallon 3y ago
Air pollution kills 10 million/year[1]. All the legacy carmakers + fossil fuel companies are responsible for this. Nearly all the big car manufactures have done this[2-6], and probably continue to do so, these small fines are not a deterrent, just cost of business. 1) Air Pollution Kills 10 Million People a Year. Why Do We Accept That as Normal?https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/08/opinion/environment/air-pollution-deaths-climate-change.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/08/opinion/environment/air-p... 2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal 3) ICCT and ADAC showed the biggest deviations from Volvo, Renault, Jeep, Hyundai, Citroën and Fiat: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_emissions_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_emissions_scandal 4) “Disguise, defeat and deny:” Toyota loses appeal and must pay $1.3bln for dodgy diesel filters: https://thedriven.io/2023/03/28/disguise-defeat-and-deny-toyota-loses-appeal-and-must-pay-1-3bln-for-dodgy-diesel-filters/ https://thedriven.io/2023/03/28/disguise-defeat-and-deny-toy... 5) Mercedez-Benz faces over 300,000 UK claims over diesel emissions: https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/mercedez-benz-faces-over-300000-uk-claims-over-diesel-emissions-2023-02-09/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/merced... 6) Daimler to Settle U.S. Emissions Charges for $2.2 Billion: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/13/business/daimler-emissions-settlement-us.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/13/business/daimler-emission...
- bastard_op 3y ago
  I was just thinking "wasn't Volkswagen vilified for this not long ago?" So basically all automakers with diesel do the needful and fake around results anyways. I guess these rules are merely up for interpretation loosely, and this is why the planet is dying.
LiquidPolymer 3y ago
I have an old Dodge Ram with a Cummins 12 valve engine. The next generation version of my same truck came with a 24 valve engine and more emissions controls. The 24 valve Cummins engine is famous for the ability to re-tune and "delete" features on the engine for better performance and dirtier emissions. The 12 valve I own only needs a screwdriver to change the fuel mix and increase horsepower. These engines are considered highly desirable because they are very simple with unusual durability (the design comes from Cummins industrial engine product line). When you see the a-holes on YouTube "rolling coal" it is typically from one of these Cummins engines. These are older than the trucks mentioned in this article, but I wonder if Cummins continued to allow easy adjustments to defeat emissions controls.
- twisteriffic 3y ago
  The VP44 24v didn't have any more emissions controls than the 12v in the traditional sense. No cat, no DPF, no EGR. It just ran cleaner because of tighter control on injection timing and volume due to the switch from a purely mechanical pump/injectors to electromechanical pump in the VP44, then to fully electronically controlled injectors in the common rail after 2002. This change to electronic control is what made dial-your-horsepower and emissions skirting like this so trivial.
userbinator 3y ago
Isn't one of the biggest allures to having a diesel truck is being able to roll coal? (Not judging, I personally like seeing it once in a while. Everything in moderation, including moderation...)
juanani 3y ago
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175 points by rokkitmensch 3y ago

It's sad that the largest ever penalty is still less money than the company made off the crime.

This isn't even the first time Cummins has been hit with the largest settlement for emissions controls defeat devices![0] [0] https://web.archive.org/web/20151002043823/http://www2.epa.gov/enforcement/mack-trucks-diesel-engine-settlement https://web.archive.org/web/20151002043823/http://www2.epa.g...

chewmieser 3y ago
Wow, and then had the audacity to continue the practice beyond that? That fine should be significantly more severe…
- distortionfield 3y ago
  It's America, you get a bonus for this behavior, not a fine.

lifeisstillgood 3y ago

VW did it Renault probably did it These guys probably did I think there was a point where regulators said "diesel puts out lung damaging levels of pollutants killing X people a year. We shall either ban diesel engines ... or make manufacturers make diesel engines that don't pollute that badly" So they set a safe level. And no manufacturer has been able to achieve the technology to meet that level. I know some manufacturers claim they can, but honestly that's like a cyclist claiming that they won the Tour De France without drugs. After so many cyclists have been caught (about half since 1990) it's really hard to take the drug free claim seriously - just as it's hard to take the "our diesel engine does it really honestly guv"

chrismartin 3y ago
One more reason it's time to transition away from burning stuff to produce energy.
- AmVess 3y ago
  Transition to what, exactly? Pixie dust? Unicorn farts? There's nothing to transition to.
  - thomasmg 3y ago
    Elon Musk used an image of a farting unicorn to promote Tesla.
  - wannacboatmovie 3y ago
    Not to mention that they're often burning stuff behind the curtain to power the non-burning stuff. As long as it's out of sight it's okay.
    - Nextgrid 3y ago
      It's still an improvement if the large place that burns stuff extracts more energy than tons of small places burning stuff. Not to mention, it's easier to then replace the few large places that burn stuff with something cleaner than having to replace every single car on the road again.
    - recursive 3y ago
      There are lot of parts in the network. No one claimed they would all make a step transition overnight. Part of that is to replace parts of the network which continue to work, while being capable moving the other parts forward.
  - Gigachad 3y ago
    From my experience, any car at all or even a bicycle could replace the majority of trips I see these trucks doing.

Syonyk 3y ago

Is there any detailed information anyone can find on what they allegedly did, at a technical level? "Defeat device" is such a broad category of term that it's useless for understanding the details of what it's claimed they did. The Justice.gov writeup [0] isn't any better. > The company allegedly installed defeat devices on 630,000 model year 2013 to 2019 RAM 2500 and 3500 pickup truck engines. The company also allegedly installed undisclosed auxiliary emission control devices on 330,000 model year 2019 to 2023 RAM 2500 and 3500 pickup truck engines. I'd be interested in reading technical details on what, exactly, they did or didn't supposedly do. [0]: https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/statement-attorney-general-merrick-garland-agreement-principle-cummins-settle-alleged https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/statement-attorney-general-me...

kotaKat 3y ago
Best I have off hand is one of the example recall notices which just says "software update" for the emissions calibration: https://www.chrysler.com/universal/webselfservice/pdf/VB6.pdf https://www.chrysler.com/universal/webselfservice/pdf/VB6.pd...
Guvante 3y ago
IIRC other manufacturers would detect the usage pattern of tests and run cleaner as a form of bypass. Similarly you could lie on the OC2 response.
- Syonyk 3y ago
  Sure, I know what other manufacturers did. I want to know the technical details of what Cummins allegedly did "enough that they're not arguing a massive fine, while claiming they didn't do it on purpose." Claiming they "installed defeat devices" isn't nearly enough detail. How did it alter either the engine combustion cycle or the emissions control system behavior?
  - rightbyte 3y ago
    Who knows? I believe VW chief engineers got in jail not knowing what their subordinates did. I really tried to understand the VW scandal but I could not.

throwup238 3y ago

What's so much worse is that this isn't the first time they've been caught doing this shit: https://www.epa.gov/enforcement/cummins-engine-company-diesel-engine-clean-air-act-settlement https://www.epa.gov/enforcement/cummins-engine-company-diese... That enforcement action is from 1998. There was even a consent decree but they've been doing this bullshit for a quarter century. It isn't a small isolated incident, it's literally built into the culture of the company. We need a corporate death penalty for repeat offenders like this.

stefan_ 3y ago

US company so a penalty that is less than the profit, "no wrongdoing admitted" (its a defeat device!), no criminal investigation (there would be precedent), press release goes out on the Friday before Christmas.

cyanydeez 3y ago
companies are voting blocs, so , you know, democracy inaction.

DueDilligence 3y ago

[dead]

sottol 3y ago

Interesting that it's called systematic tricking when Cummins does it, with VW it's just criminal fraud?

AmVess 3y ago
Harder for VW to cut checks to the people who matter.
TheLoafOfBread 3y ago
US company caught by US regulator vs European company caught by US regulators. And then Americans are surprised when Europe does not play ball with US big tech industry in EU.

Hamuko 3y ago

I'm already going to wager that they're not going to be shat on quite as hard as Volkswagen was, just like Fiat-Chrysler wasn't.

BugsJustFindMe 3y ago

> The company does not admit wrongdoing and says no one in the company acted in bad faith Fuck me, though, right? I know the government can't do it, but this kind of statement itself should merit some kind of additional punishment.

junofan 3y ago
I mean, we don’t have any details yet. What if the “defeat device” is something like “if $SENSOR is reading a little high, turn on service light and operate as normal otherwise” As a customer I’d be pissed if my truck wouldn’t run.
- e28eta 3y ago
  Not going to pass an emissions test with a service light on. But I agree that more details are necessary before we can know that the statement is false.
tantalor 3y ago
That's par for a settlement

draw_down 3y ago

[dead]

JoshTko 3y ago

It's about time these offenses are considered crimes against humanity and have mandatory criminal prosecution at executive levels.

arrosenberg 3y ago

Until we send the executives to jail, the fraud will continue.

thuuuomas 3y ago
Here’s my pithy slogan advocating this - If your safety systems fail, we pierce the corporate veil.

gnabgib 3y ago

Discussed 3 hours ago: Cummins Fined $1.6B for Diesel Defeat Devices in 630K RAM Trucks[0] (80 points, 124 comments). Maybe don't need both? [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38746664 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38746664

orenlindsey 3y ago

There's no way to make a diesel or gasoline car that's not actively bad for the environment. Electric is the only way. (And maybe hydrogen, but that's quite a ways off)

cyanydeez 3y ago
unfortunately, saving the environment is currently a luxury item.
Syonyk 3y ago
An electric car is bad for the environment (described generally, not in the laser-focused "CO2 emissions are the only thing that matters!" modern sense) in almost all the same ways an ICE vehicle is, just with a reduction in runtime carbon emissions, and with quite a bit more mining going into the raw materials. Hydrogen, meanwhile, is nonsensical in every way you care to look at the problem, unless you look at it through the lens of "petrochemical suppliers who want to ensure that a future vehicle fleet needs to fill up at stations they supply with fuel that can be rapidly delivered in a 5 minute window." And maybe shipping, but even there, I think metal-air batteries that are smelted for recharging are likely to work better. And that's before you get into what a devious little pain in the ass hydrogen is to deal with at a chemical/technical level.
- AnthonyMouse 3y ago
  > An electric car is bad for the environment (described generally, not in the laser-focused "CO2 emissions are the only thing that matters!" modern sense) in almost all the same ways an ICE vehicle is, just with a reduction in runtime carbon emissions No it isn't. You can charge them entirely with renewable sources (or nuclear), reducing traditional air pollutants in addition to CO2. This is even true when still using fossil fuel power plants, which emit fewer pollutants per unit energy than small engines. Electric cars use regenerative braking, reducing the use of friction braking that releases brake dust into the environment. > and with quite a bit more mining going into the raw materials. Electric cars are only marginally heavier than gasoline cars because electric motors are light and the batteries take the place of not only the fuel tank but the entire powertrain and emissions equipment. It's not obvious how mining two tons of raw materials is dramatically different than mining 1.9 tons of raw materials, and in any event the raw materials can be recycled from older electric cars once there are older electric cars to recycle.

pardoned_turkey 3y ago

Is there any article explaining what they actually did, or are alleged to have done? With the VW scandal, there was a fairly in-depth discussion of the technical aspects of it. But all the articles about Cummins seem exceedingly vague. IIRC, VW had code to detect emissions testing and reduce performance at that time. What did Cummins do?

thelastgallon 3y ago

Air pollution kills 10 million/year[1]. All the legacy carmakers + fossil fuel companies are responsible for this. Nearly all the big car manufactures have done this[2-6], and probably continue to do so, these small fines are not a deterrent, just cost of business. 1) Air Pollution Kills 10 Million People a Year. Why Do We Accept That as Normal?https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/08/opinion/environment/air-pollution-deaths-climate-change.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/08/opinion/environment/air-p... 2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal 3) ICCT and ADAC showed the biggest deviations from Volvo, Renault, Jeep, Hyundai, Citroën and Fiat: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_emissions_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_emissions_scandal 4) “Disguise, defeat and deny:” Toyota loses appeal and must pay $1.3bln for dodgy diesel filters: https://thedriven.io/2023/03/28/disguise-defeat-and-deny-toyota-loses-appeal-and-must-pay-1-3bln-for-dodgy-diesel-filters/ https://thedriven.io/2023/03/28/disguise-defeat-and-deny-toy... 5) Mercedez-Benz faces over 300,000 UK claims over diesel emissions: https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/mercedez-benz-faces-over-300000-uk-claims-over-diesel-emissions-2023-02-09/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/merced... 6) Daimler to Settle U.S. Emissions Charges for $2.2 Billion: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/13/business/daimler-emissions-settlement-us.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/13/business/daimler-emission...

bastard_op 3y ago
I was just thinking "wasn't Volkswagen vilified for this not long ago?" So basically all automakers with diesel do the needful and fake around results anyways. I guess these rules are merely up for interpretation loosely, and this is why the planet is dying.

LiquidPolymer 3y ago

I have an old Dodge Ram with a Cummins 12 valve engine. The next generation version of my same truck came with a 24 valve engine and more emissions controls. The 24 valve Cummins engine is famous for the ability to re-tune and "delete" features on the engine for better performance and dirtier emissions. The 12 valve I own only needs a screwdriver to change the fuel mix and increase horsepower. These engines are considered highly desirable because they are very simple with unusual durability (the design comes from Cummins industrial engine product line). When you see the a-holes on YouTube "rolling coal" it is typically from one of these Cummins engines. These are older than the trucks mentioned in this article, but I wonder if Cummins continued to allow easy adjustments to defeat emissions controls.

twisteriffic 3y ago
The VP44 24v didn't have any more emissions controls than the 12v in the traditional sense. No cat, no DPF, no EGR. It just ran cleaner because of tighter control on injection timing and volume due to the switch from a purely mechanical pump/injectors to electromechanical pump in the VP44, then to fully electronically controlled injectors in the common rail after 2002. This change to electronic control is what made dial-your-horsepower and emissions skirting like this so trivial.

userbinator 3y ago

Isn't one of the biggest allures to having a diesel truck is being able to roll coal? (Not judging, I personally like seeing it once in a while. Everything in moderation, including moderation...)

juanani 3y ago

[dead]