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The OP forgot an important point: 0. Move to the United States of America If you miss that one the rest is pretty pointless, unfortunately. For example, in (a

The OP forgot an important point: 0. Move to the United States of America If you miss that one the rest is pretty pointless, unfortunately. For example, in (at least most of) Europe you would be much better off studying blogposts titled “How to Become a Mediocre Manager”.

hasty_pudding 3y ago
[flagged]
- Etheryte 3y ago
  Anecdotal experience, but I know way more people who have moved from the US to Europe than the other way around. Money is only one measure, quality of life in your day to day environment is something else completely.
- hmottestad 3y ago
  Norway and Sweden seem pretty desirable to immigrants.
  - hasty_pudding 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - xenic 3y ago
      Japan,New Zealand,South Korea,Singapore,Taiwan,Canada…?
    - beezlewax 3y ago
      Europe is not a country.
      - hasty_pudding 3y ago
        [flagged]
    - IshKebab 3y ago
      Having unstable governments, low salaries and low quality of life. Is that a real question? You should have learnt about world history in school.
    - signaru 3y ago
      I can speak for one where I have worked in a technical/academic capacity. Once a software is made in EU/US then shared to the world, I observe that there is no incentive for others to be good at it. Just use/download/pay/pirate. Problem solved. Just like other imported goods, software is just thought of as something someone else creates and that will always be available from outside.
hiAndrewQuinn 3y ago
That doesn't logically track, given that one can become a great software engineer anywhere they have an Internet connection these days. It's probably good advice for maxing out your compensation, though.
- 0xDEAFBEAD 3y ago
  Doesn't research show that remote work is bad for mentorship though? If the best engineers move to the US for high comp, and working with the best engineers is the best way to learn, then moving to the US could make sense even if you don't care about comp.
- tarruda 3y ago
  > It's probably good advice for maxing out your compensation, though. It is not only about how much you make, but how much you save.
  - hiAndrewQuinn 3y ago
    Are you making a claim that non-Americans save more money?
    - tarruda 3y ago
      I mean you can save more depending on where you live due to cost of living and income taxes. You can live very comfortably in a low cost country with a $90,000/year salary and still save half of that.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
  - Gare 3y ago
    You can only save up to 100% of what you make (good luck with that), but you can increase your compensation more than that.
  - 3y ago
rand1239 3y ago
Yeah. But end goal of engineering is to improve life. You have only 1 life. Europe >>> USA quality of living.
- cpursley 3y ago
  The win-win is to live in Europe but work for an American company as a software dev.
  - IshKebab 3y ago
    Not really because you'll still get paid a European salary. In fact that's really the worst of both worlds - European salary but American pressure.
    - cpursley 3y ago
      Plenty of European devs getting an American salary.
      - IshKebab 3y ago
        Not in my experience. Which companies pay the same in SV and the UK?
  - swader999 3y ago
    That's not easy with the time zone difference.
- mnky9800n 3y ago
  That depends on how much you make in the USA. I doubt 300k+ engineers are going to accept 80-120k euros for the same job in Europe. I make around 100k USD working in Norway as a research scientist. I doubt I'm going to be able to increase my salary anymore than that in my current job. Maybe I could get more managing an industrial lab.
- bjornsing 3y ago
  > Yeah. But end goal of engineering is to improve life. Nope. The end goal of my engineering is to build meaningful products that improve other people’s lives. But sure, with your attitude to work you’ll do fine in Europe.
marginalia_nu 3y ago
That's out of the guide for becoming a well paid software engineer. There are definitely career paths in Europe that mean you get to flex your engineering skills. They aren't always obvious, but they very much exist.
- bjornsing 3y ago
  In my experience they are usually scattered one-off opportunities that are ver hard to build a career around. And if you’re that good it’s easier to just see the whole world as your target market, build a reputation online and work remote. But then you’re essentially succeeding despite of Europe, while everyone around you have comfy positions because of Europe. Quite a hard position to be/stay in, psychologically.
0xDEAFBEAD 3y ago
Fun fact: CS education appears to be something that America is genuinely rather good at. >Researchers found that the average computer science student in the U.S. ranked higher than about 80 percent of students tested in China, India and Russia, Loyalka said. In contrast, the difference in scores among students in China, India and Russia was small and not statistically significant. >Researchers also compared a smaller pool of students from top-ranking institutions in each country. They found that the average student in a top computer science program in the U.S. also ranked higher than about 80 percent of students from top programs in China, India and Russia. But the top Chinese, Indian and Russian students scored comparably with the U.S. students from regular institutions, according to the research. https://news.stanford.edu/2019/03/19/comparing-skills-computer-science-undergraduates-internationally/ https://news.stanford.edu/2019/03/19/comparing-skills-comput...
- bjornsing 3y ago
  > CS education appears to be something that America is genuinely very good at. Here’s an alternative hypothesis: America seems genuinely very good at incentivizing bright young people to study CS.
- ThinkBeat 3y ago
  This does not match my own experience. Though my experience is about 15 years old, which may be a factor. I have met a large number of students with cs degrees in the US who never wrote a single line of code. I looked through the study and I was not able to find the test they were given. This is the organization that makes them: https://www.ets.org/pdfs/mft/comp-sci-test-description.pdf https://www.ets.org/pdfs/mft/comp-sci-test-description.pdf The phrasing for the US number is different but probably semantics: We also obtained assessment data on 6,847 seniors from a representative sample of CS programs in the United States. When it comes to the foreign countries the district term "tested" The sample size is drastically different: China: 678 India: 364 Russia: 551 US: 6837 Further Americans developed all tests. It would be interesting if the reverse tests were done. Russia developed one test, China one, India one, Then the sample group from this test would take each one seperatly and with good time to rest (days) between tests. If the results were equal to this first study. They might well be.

hasty_pudding 3y ago

[flagged]

Etheryte 3y ago
Anecdotal experience, but I know way more people who have moved from the US to Europe than the other way around. Money is only one measure, quality of life in your day to day environment is something else completely.
hmottestad 3y ago
Norway and Sweden seem pretty desirable to immigrants.
- hasty_pudding 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - xenic 3y ago
    Japan,New Zealand,South Korea,Singapore,Taiwan,Canada…?
  - beezlewax 3y ago
    Europe is not a country.
    - hasty_pudding 3y ago
      [flagged]
  - IshKebab 3y ago
    Having unstable governments, low salaries and low quality of life. Is that a real question? You should have learnt about world history in school.
  - signaru 3y ago
    I can speak for one where I have worked in a technical/academic capacity. Once a software is made in EU/US then shared to the world, I observe that there is no incentive for others to be good at it. Just use/download/pay/pirate. Problem solved. Just like other imported goods, software is just thought of as something someone else creates and that will always be available from outside.

hiAndrewQuinn 3y ago

That doesn't logically track, given that one can become a great software engineer anywhere they have an Internet connection these days. It's probably good advice for maxing out your compensation, though.

0xDEAFBEAD 3y ago
Doesn't research show that remote work is bad for mentorship though? If the best engineers move to the US for high comp, and working with the best engineers is the best way to learn, then moving to the US could make sense even if you don't care about comp.
tarruda 3y ago
> It's probably good advice for maxing out your compensation, though. It is not only about how much you make, but how much you save.
- hiAndrewQuinn 3y ago
  Are you making a claim that non-Americans save more money?
  - tarruda 3y ago
    I mean you can save more depending on where you live due to cost of living and income taxes. You can live very comfortably in a low cost country with a $90,000/year salary and still save half of that.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
- Gare 3y ago
  You can only save up to 100% of what you make (good luck with that), but you can increase your compensation more than that.
- 3y ago

rand1239 3y ago

Yeah. But end goal of engineering is to improve life. You have only 1 life. Europe >>> USA quality of living.

cpursley 3y ago
The win-win is to live in Europe but work for an American company as a software dev.
- IshKebab 3y ago
  Not really because you'll still get paid a European salary. In fact that's really the worst of both worlds - European salary but American pressure.
  - cpursley 3y ago
    Plenty of European devs getting an American salary.
    - IshKebab 3y ago
      Not in my experience. Which companies pay the same in SV and the UK?
- swader999 3y ago
  That's not easy with the time zone difference.
mnky9800n 3y ago
That depends on how much you make in the USA. I doubt 300k+ engineers are going to accept 80-120k euros for the same job in Europe. I make around 100k USD working in Norway as a research scientist. I doubt I'm going to be able to increase my salary anymore than that in my current job. Maybe I could get more managing an industrial lab.
bjornsing 3y ago
> Yeah. But end goal of engineering is to improve life. Nope. The end goal of my engineering is to build meaningful products that improve other people’s lives. But sure, with your attitude to work you’ll do fine in Europe.

marginalia_nu 3y ago

That's out of the guide for becoming a well paid software engineer. There are definitely career paths in Europe that mean you get to flex your engineering skills. They aren't always obvious, but they very much exist.

bjornsing 3y ago
In my experience they are usually scattered one-off opportunities that are ver hard to build a career around. And if you’re that good it’s easier to just see the whole world as your target market, build a reputation online and work remote. But then you’re essentially succeeding despite of Europe, while everyone around you have comfy positions because of Europe. Quite a hard position to be/stay in, psychologically.

0xDEAFBEAD 3y ago

Fun fact: CS education appears to be something that America is genuinely rather good at. >Researchers found that the average computer science student in the U.S. ranked higher than about 80 percent of students tested in China, India and Russia, Loyalka said. In contrast, the difference in scores among students in China, India and Russia was small and not statistically significant. >Researchers also compared a smaller pool of students from top-ranking institutions in each country. They found that the average student in a top computer science program in the U.S. also ranked higher than about 80 percent of students from top programs in China, India and Russia. But the top Chinese, Indian and Russian students scored comparably with the U.S. students from regular institutions, according to the research. https://news.stanford.edu/2019/03/19/comparing-skills-computer-science-undergraduates-internationally/ https://news.stanford.edu/2019/03/19/comparing-skills-comput...

bjornsing 3y ago
> CS education appears to be something that America is genuinely very good at. Here’s an alternative hypothesis: America seems genuinely very good at incentivizing bright young people to study CS.
ThinkBeat 3y ago
This does not match my own experience. Though my experience is about 15 years old, which may be a factor. I have met a large number of students with cs degrees in the US who never wrote a single line of code. I looked through the study and I was not able to find the test they were given. This is the organization that makes them: https://www.ets.org/pdfs/mft/comp-sci-test-description.pdf https://www.ets.org/pdfs/mft/comp-sci-test-description.pdf The phrasing for the US number is different but probably semantics: We also obtained assessment data on 6,847 seniors from a representative sample of CS programs in the United States. When it comes to the foreign countries the district term "tested" The sample size is drastically different: China: 678 India: 364 Russia: 551 US: 6837 Further Americans developed all tests. It would be interesting if the reverse tests were done. Russia developed one test, China one, India one, Then the sample group from this test would take each one seperatly and with good time to rest (days) between tests. If the results were equal to this first study. They might well be.