5 ms·

It'd be useful and terrifying if this means we can screen people for schizophrenia. Especially if it works on people many years before symptoms show.

booleandilemma 3y ago
Creepy. I could see a good psychological horror movie about this.
- Yiin 3y ago
  marrowbone
- syspec 3y ago
  Dr. Incel
CoastalCoder 3y ago
Why terrifying?
- n8henrie 3y ago
  I assume referring to being an individual getting this diagnosis prior to the onset of symptoms.
  - CoastalCoder 3y ago
    That would make sense. I assumed GP was referring to the potential for abuse.
  - MBCook 3y ago
    It would have to be extremely stressful, knowing that in some short number of years (since it normally shows up in late teens/early 20s I think) your mind would start to constantly lie to you and you may lose the ability to discern reality from hallucinations.
- autoexec 3y ago
  Imagine if children could get diagnosed, or anyone who had no idea and now has to question their own sanity knowing that if it isn't already affecting them that it's only a matter of time. Also because our blood can end up in a lot of places. People who may not even be aware it was collected/screened for schizophrenia could end up being targeted by marketers, scammers, or anyone else with an agenda who'll try to feed into their paranoia the same away advertisers target people with biopolar disorder because they know that people in a manic phase tend to buy things/travel more or how scammers use data brokers to buy up lists of people with dementia and those with low IQ/little education
  - TriangleEdge 3y ago
    I would vote for making data brokers illegal.
    - mrcode007 3y ago
      Same. Not sure why you got downvoted.
      - toasted-subs 3y ago
        Because some of the people here are corporate dogs, who just try to better themselves. Just had an interview where there was no correct answer. Remembered the equivalent leetcode problem, and my solution worked. Could not pass their test cases though.
    - toomuchtodo 3y ago
      https://www.consumerfinance.gov/about-us/newsroom/remarks-of-cfpb-director-rohit-chopra-at-white-house-roundtable-on-protecting-americans-from-harmful-data-broker-practices/ https://www.consumerfinance.gov/about-us/newsroom/remarks-of... https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/senate-bill/2121/text?s=1&r=14&q=%7B%22search%22%3A%22Energy%5C%5C+and%5C%5C+and%5C%5C%22%7D https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/senate-bill/212... (S.2121 - DELETE Act) CFPB is trying to rein them in. Call your congressional reps, ask them to support the DELETE Act.
Staple_Diet 3y ago
Alphabet were investing heavily into this space a while ago, with Thomas Insel leading the research. Their aim was to identify biomarkers of these more serious mental illnesses. Schizophrenia isn't like Huntington where an early predictive diagnosis does little more than inform you of an inevitable debilitating illness. Schizophrenia can be managed, and when it is managed well with early intervention the outcomes can be very good. I oversaw a program that supported sufferers of schizophrenia in the community and we had some staff working with us who were also sufferers. The main difference between those who had positive vs negative outcomes was the way in which the illness was managed at onset (typically between teens to young adulthood). Unfortunately mismanagement during that period could have a massive effect on final outcome, where for example we had 60yo patients suffering PTSD from the way they were treated 40y ago during the onset of their illness. If there's anything to fear about improved mental health diagnostics it's how this data will be used by insurance companies to exclude customers in countries that lack socialized healthcare (i.e., US).
- WoodenChair 3y ago
  > If there's anything to fear about improved mental health diagnostics it's how this data will be used by insurance companies to exclude customers in countries that lack socialized healthcare (i.e., US). Since the Affordable Care Act went into effect in 2014 in USA it's no longer legal to exclude people based on most pre-existing conditions. "Marketplace plans must cover treatment for pre-existing medical conditions. No insurance participating in the health insurance market place can reject you for coverage, charge more, or refuse to pay for essential health services for any prior medical condition. Moreover, once an individual is enrolled in the marketplace, insurance plans cannot deny coverage or raise rates solely based on your health." [0] 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-existing_Condition_Insurance_Plan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-existing_Condition_Insuran...
  - 4death4 3y ago
    > No insurance participating in the health insurance market place Unfortunately, all the marketplace plans suck.
swayvil 3y ago
1. Locate individual who refuses to do what all the good, right-minded people know to be scientifically appropriate. 2. Blood test. 3. Help the unfortunate person with large doses of mandatory etc.
- getwiththeprog 3y ago
  Scientific proof that an individuals behaviour is "bad". Not a road that I would like to see society go down again. People need to be judged on their behaviour, not their blood. Nothing more, nothing less.
  - M1ch431 3y ago
    Exactly. It's scary to think that a simple screening could dictate how you are treated for the rest of your life effectively. You're declared a "latent schizophrenic" and people start doubting your credibility, sanity, independence, safety etc. at every change or milestone in your life. You are forced into therapy for your "benefit", because you are preemptively declared "incompetent" because your illness could manifest any time. You are given "maintenance" doses of major tranquilizers and a cocktail of other poorly understood psychiatric drugs to balance the side effects out; and any spirituality, any epiphanies or sudden changes, any minute delusion is blown out of proportion and is put under a microscope. This name-calling/magnification of "bad behavior" could happen to anybody, and does every day regardless of such screenings and tests. These psychological disorders are poorly understood, with flimsy and often biased/subjective diagnostic criteria (with no measurable physical damage, only a checklist - even in schizophrenia; those bunk brain scans of people who have been treated long-term with anti-psychotics are evidence of just that - it's not the natural progression of the disease). "Wellness checks" are one way today where people can effectively send anybody to a mental hospital with no due process. Some states require that you be a threat to yourself or others, which is something that is easy to fabricate/exaggerate if you wish a person harm, or perhaps misunderstand a situation or are misguided and think you know better than the person that you want to "help". In my state though, if there is "clear and convincing evidence that somebody needs treatment and would benefit from it" during such a check, it basically gives them the right to involuntarily commit you. Imagine how devastating that could be to somebody who cannot afford to pay for the treatment/duration of stay, even if they were deemed subjectively to need treatment. It's highway robbery how much they charge. And their entire life could be upended in the 3 days they held them, if they did get out in only 3 days. They could lose their job, and it all cascades from there. Instead of worrying how bad reality can get, or is, we really just need to attack the problem at its core: Health care needs to be health care, not whatever the hell capitalism has twisted it to be. Involuntary treatment should be made illegal, and there should be a much higher bar on what criteria makes somebody incompetent. One psychiatrist and a judge who is wooed by that psychiatrist is not enough. You should be able to direct your care to another psychiatrist or facility if you have any problem whatsoever, but that usually doesn't happen. There are courts specifically called "Mental Health Courts" in the US and I can tell you that "second opinions" and even small changes to your treatment can be hell to fight for. And finally, suicide should be legal. There should be humane, detailed processes for it, and it should be done in a medical setting. If suicide were legal, then a lot of these frivolous interventions would become regulated. People shouldn't have an express ticket to the mental prison whenever they express wanting to die.
heavyset_go 3y ago
The real terror is descending into a hell of your mind's own making and it being largely preventable.
- Log_out_ 3y ago
  ? It's a genetic adaptation to hellish circumstances and as we head toward these circumstances somewhat OP. They really are after you, in Russia, in china, in large parts of Africa and more to come. And there are manmade Tigers in the sky and water. Seems to be misguided notion, out of a nostalgic sense for reality, to want to mis-adapt people to a ever more shrinking raft of stability. This shitty circumstances are normal.. It is what most of the species, spend most of its time in before science gifted us with temporary freedom. Better in the long run to adapt the surplus scientific society so that it can survive and thrive in shitty circumstances. Let's make chips in Mogadishu the challenge?
  - local_crmdgeon 3y ago
    Recommend this screening for you. This is p schizoid
  - heavyset_go 3y ago
    Older, longer and more sustainable societies and cultures found places for some of the people we'd call schizophrenic today. I do think it's tragic that we've lost those roles and ideas surrounding those roles in modernity. However, I've seen with my own two eyes schizophrenia destroy the lives of several people I know. These people are suffering, and not just because of how society treats the neurodivergent. They are trapped in hellish prisons of their own minds, reliving and reinventing traumas no one should have to experience. It's as if their own minds have turned on themselves just to torment them in uniquely personal and unseen hells. It's utterly tragic, and largely preventable with treatment. That said, even in the past, where there were roles for those who experienced schizophrenic symptoms, those with extreme symptoms also suffered from expulsion, disownment, imprisonment and death. It's a mistake to romanticize something that torments so many.
- mistrial9 3y ago
sylware 3y ago
It all depends on the strength of the correlation. We all know, that to link behavioral patterns to bio-chemistry is full of false-positive... and the other way around too. Correlation is not proof, and in biology, due to inherent complexity it is even more questionable. That looks like some kind of "more research is needed", "give me more money" kind of study.
cobalt60 3y ago
This is so surreal, I just started watching the anime show "Psycho-Pass", which exactly seems to correlate with this ideology.

booleandilemma 3y ago

Creepy. I could see a good psychological horror movie about this.

Yiin 3y ago
marrowbone
syspec 3y ago
Dr. Incel

CoastalCoder 3y ago

Why terrifying?

n8henrie 3y ago
I assume referring to being an individual getting this diagnosis prior to the onset of symptoms.
- CoastalCoder 3y ago
  That would make sense. I assumed GP was referring to the potential for abuse.
- MBCook 3y ago
  It would have to be extremely stressful, knowing that in some short number of years (since it normally shows up in late teens/early 20s I think) your mind would start to constantly lie to you and you may lose the ability to discern reality from hallucinations.
autoexec 3y ago
Imagine if children could get diagnosed, or anyone who had no idea and now has to question their own sanity knowing that if it isn't already affecting them that it's only a matter of time. Also because our blood can end up in a lot of places. People who may not even be aware it was collected/screened for schizophrenia could end up being targeted by marketers, scammers, or anyone else with an agenda who'll try to feed into their paranoia the same away advertisers target people with biopolar disorder because they know that people in a manic phase tend to buy things/travel more or how scammers use data brokers to buy up lists of people with dementia and those with low IQ/little education
- TriangleEdge 3y ago
  I would vote for making data brokers illegal.
  - mrcode007 3y ago
    Same. Not sure why you got downvoted.
    - toasted-subs 3y ago
      Because some of the people here are corporate dogs, who just try to better themselves. Just had an interview where there was no correct answer. Remembered the equivalent leetcode problem, and my solution worked. Could not pass their test cases though.
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    https://www.consumerfinance.gov/about-us/newsroom/remarks-of-cfpb-director-rohit-chopra-at-white-house-roundtable-on-protecting-americans-from-harmful-data-broker-practices/ https://www.consumerfinance.gov/about-us/newsroom/remarks-of... https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/senate-bill/2121/text?s=1&r=14&q=%7B%22search%22%3A%22Energy%5C%5C+and%5C%5C+and%5C%5C%22%7D https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/senate-bill/212... (S.2121 - DELETE Act) CFPB is trying to rein them in. Call your congressional reps, ask them to support the DELETE Act.

Staple_Diet 3y ago

Alphabet were investing heavily into this space a while ago, with Thomas Insel leading the research. Their aim was to identify biomarkers of these more serious mental illnesses. Schizophrenia isn't like Huntington where an early predictive diagnosis does little more than inform you of an inevitable debilitating illness. Schizophrenia can be managed, and when it is managed well with early intervention the outcomes can be very good. I oversaw a program that supported sufferers of schizophrenia in the community and we had some staff working with us who were also sufferers. The main difference between those who had positive vs negative outcomes was the way in which the illness was managed at onset (typically between teens to young adulthood). Unfortunately mismanagement during that period could have a massive effect on final outcome, where for example we had 60yo patients suffering PTSD from the way they were treated 40y ago during the onset of their illness. If there's anything to fear about improved mental health diagnostics it's how this data will be used by insurance companies to exclude customers in countries that lack socialized healthcare (i.e., US).

WoodenChair 3y ago
> If there's anything to fear about improved mental health diagnostics it's how this data will be used by insurance companies to exclude customers in countries that lack socialized healthcare (i.e., US). Since the Affordable Care Act went into effect in 2014 in USA it's no longer legal to exclude people based on most pre-existing conditions. "Marketplace plans must cover treatment for pre-existing medical conditions. No insurance participating in the health insurance market place can reject you for coverage, charge more, or refuse to pay for essential health services for any prior medical condition. Moreover, once an individual is enrolled in the marketplace, insurance plans cannot deny coverage or raise rates solely based on your health." [0] 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-existing_Condition_Insurance_Plan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-existing_Condition_Insuran...
- 4death4 3y ago
  > No insurance participating in the health insurance market place Unfortunately, all the marketplace plans suck.

swayvil 3y ago

1. Locate individual who refuses to do what all the good, right-minded people know to be scientifically appropriate. 2. Blood test. 3. Help the unfortunate person with large doses of mandatory etc.

getwiththeprog 3y ago
Scientific proof that an individuals behaviour is "bad". Not a road that I would like to see society go down again. People need to be judged on their behaviour, not their blood. Nothing more, nothing less.
- M1ch431 3y ago
  Exactly. It's scary to think that a simple screening could dictate how you are treated for the rest of your life effectively. You're declared a "latent schizophrenic" and people start doubting your credibility, sanity, independence, safety etc. at every change or milestone in your life. You are forced into therapy for your "benefit", because you are preemptively declared "incompetent" because your illness could manifest any time. You are given "maintenance" doses of major tranquilizers and a cocktail of other poorly understood psychiatric drugs to balance the side effects out; and any spirituality, any epiphanies or sudden changes, any minute delusion is blown out of proportion and is put under a microscope. This name-calling/magnification of "bad behavior" could happen to anybody, and does every day regardless of such screenings and tests. These psychological disorders are poorly understood, with flimsy and often biased/subjective diagnostic criteria (with no measurable physical damage, only a checklist - even in schizophrenia; those bunk brain scans of people who have been treated long-term with anti-psychotics are evidence of just that - it's not the natural progression of the disease). "Wellness checks" are one way today where people can effectively send anybody to a mental hospital with no due process. Some states require that you be a threat to yourself or others, which is something that is easy to fabricate/exaggerate if you wish a person harm, or perhaps misunderstand a situation or are misguided and think you know better than the person that you want to "help". In my state though, if there is "clear and convincing evidence that somebody needs treatment and would benefit from it" during such a check, it basically gives them the right to involuntarily commit you. Imagine how devastating that could be to somebody who cannot afford to pay for the treatment/duration of stay, even if they were deemed subjectively to need treatment. It's highway robbery how much they charge. And their entire life could be upended in the 3 days they held them, if they did get out in only 3 days. They could lose their job, and it all cascades from there. Instead of worrying how bad reality can get, or is, we really just need to attack the problem at its core: Health care needs to be health care, not whatever the hell capitalism has twisted it to be. Involuntary treatment should be made illegal, and there should be a much higher bar on what criteria makes somebody incompetent. One psychiatrist and a judge who is wooed by that psychiatrist is not enough. You should be able to direct your care to another psychiatrist or facility if you have any problem whatsoever, but that usually doesn't happen. There are courts specifically called "Mental Health Courts" in the US and I can tell you that "second opinions" and even small changes to your treatment can be hell to fight for. And finally, suicide should be legal. There should be humane, detailed processes for it, and it should be done in a medical setting. If suicide were legal, then a lot of these frivolous interventions would become regulated. People shouldn't have an express ticket to the mental prison whenever they express wanting to die.

heavyset_go 3y ago

The real terror is descending into a hell of your mind's own making and it being largely preventable.

Log_out_ 3y ago
? It's a genetic adaptation to hellish circumstances and as we head toward these circumstances somewhat OP. They really are after you, in Russia, in china, in large parts of Africa and more to come. And there are manmade Tigers in the sky and water. Seems to be misguided notion, out of a nostalgic sense for reality, to want to mis-adapt people to a ever more shrinking raft of stability. This shitty circumstances are normal.. It is what most of the species, spend most of its time in before science gifted us with temporary freedom. Better in the long run to adapt the surplus scientific society so that it can survive and thrive in shitty circumstances. Let's make chips in Mogadishu the challenge?
- local_crmdgeon 3y ago
  Recommend this screening for you. This is p schizoid
- heavyset_go 3y ago
  Older, longer and more sustainable societies and cultures found places for some of the people we'd call schizophrenic today. I do think it's tragic that we've lost those roles and ideas surrounding those roles in modernity. However, I've seen with my own two eyes schizophrenia destroy the lives of several people I know. These people are suffering, and not just because of how society treats the neurodivergent. They are trapped in hellish prisons of their own minds, reliving and reinventing traumas no one should have to experience. It's as if their own minds have turned on themselves just to torment them in uniquely personal and unseen hells. It's utterly tragic, and largely preventable with treatment. That said, even in the past, where there were roles for those who experienced schizophrenic symptoms, those with extreme symptoms also suffered from expulsion, disownment, imprisonment and death. It's a mistake to romanticize something that torments so many.
mistrial9 3y ago

sylware 3y ago

It all depends on the strength of the correlation. We all know, that to link behavioral patterns to bio-chemistry is full of false-positive... and the other way around too. Correlation is not proof, and in biology, due to inherent complexity it is even more questionable. That looks like some kind of "more research is needed", "give me more money" kind of study.

cobalt60 3y ago

This is so surreal, I just started watching the anime show "Psycho-Pass", which exactly seems to correlate with this ideology.