4 ms·

I think vim users highly overestimate their productivity and just like the way using hotkeys feels.

elliotec 3y ago
It'd be interesting to do a comparison. But to your point, I don't think people use it as much for productivity gains as just the fun of it.
- rochak 3y ago
  Can confirm. I prefer using Vim because it makes writing stuff fun. Never thought I could ever write for fun.
- Jensson 3y ago
  I've worked with many productive people and the speed they write code at never was a big factor. The first thing you should optimize for is the speed you read code at, that makes a big difference, so look for tools or IDE's that helps you explore and read code faster. Debuggers, jump to reference, lookup usages of symbols and so on are all very important things to have.
- sneak 3y ago
  The time spent doing input is a tiny fraction of time spent coding, yes. However, it is all wasted time, and reducing it leaves more time free for thinking. There are many syntax-aware vim verbs (ci[ or ci” for example) that save a lot of time and let me get back faster to thinking about the what and not the how. Too much time on the how and my ADD kicks in, sure as someone walking into my office and trying to talk to me.
yoyohello13 3y ago
I would classify myself as a vim power user and I agree with this take. I think I'm probably equally as productive as a person that really knows their editor of choice. The productivity benefits mostly just come from knowing what things your editor is capable of. However, I subjectively feel a twinge of frustration whenever I need to take my hands off the keyboard to reach for a mouse. So using vim makes a massive impact on my day to day wellbeing.
- sodapopcan 3y ago
  Ya, any carpal tunnel-type problems I was experiencing went away when I became proficient at Vim. I've never thought much about the productivity gains... I'm generally slow anyway, ha. But not having to move my hands away from the homerow much or reach for the mouse ever is important, and beneficial, to me.
camgunz 3y ago
This probably applies to all tech workers.
smabie 3y ago
This is a realization I had after finally ditching Emacs / keyboard only life. Keybindings seem to engage your brain in a different way and make the activity more fun, but I don't think it's actually any more productive.
- Miner49er 3y ago
  Except in most cases I would say having more fun results in more productivity.
Cthulhu_ 3y ago
I suspect this is the case, but have no hard evidence. I can see how being proficient at vim makes it feel gamified though - a clever series of commands resulting in a code change giving people that hit of dopamine.
mkehrt 3y ago
As someone who is a midelevel vimmer and has been using it for 20 years, that's probably true. But the muscle memory is there, and it's standard everywhere. I do get a lot of leverage out of macros and text objects, features which I'm sure have equivalents in IDEs and other editors, but I know how to use them in vim.
- qwertyfoobar 3y ago
  I don't think there are IDEs which are as scriptable as (neo)vim or emacs. Am I wrong?
  - mkehrt 3y ago
    Oh, I have no idea. I assume that they must have some features, but I really only use vim and vscode with vim bindings turned on.
soperj 3y ago
When I'm repeating something in a non-vim environment, it feels incredibly tedious to actually have to do the steps repeatedly instead of just pressing . I don't care about the productivity, I do care about not doing tedious things.
ip26 3y ago
Crazy hotkey sequences, yes. Basic sequences like ci"foobar or /foo<enter>dwn... are a pretty great user experience - although it's true that your editing speed rarely determines the success or failure of the company.
dasil003 3y ago
As a long-time vim user I admit this is probably true compared to modern IDEs/editors in the majority of developer workflows today. On the other hand though, if I'm logging into random servers and manipulating any kind of text, especially over a low-bandwidth, high latency connection, I'll make a VSCode user look like a kindergartner who hasn't learn to hold a pencil yet.
huijzer 3y ago
Hotkeys with VS code can me made mostly the same right especially with Vim mode? I like the flexibility most. Little time when switching between projects or languages because it’s always Zellij, one or more nvims and a shell and ripgrep. It just feels the most comfortable at this point and it’s nice that it’s small and flexible instead of one big IDE. But yes probably people in other IDE‘s can be just as fast.
zingababba 3y ago
I just hate touching my mouse if I can avoid it. NeoVim + vimium in the browser weee.

It'd be interesting to do a comparison. But to your point, I don't think people use it as much for productivity gains as just the fun of it.

rochak 3y ago
Can confirm. I prefer using Vim because it makes writing stuff fun. Never thought I could ever write for fun.
Jensson 3y ago
I've worked with many productive people and the speed they write code at never was a big factor. The first thing you should optimize for is the speed you read code at, that makes a big difference, so look for tools or IDE's that helps you explore and read code faster. Debuggers, jump to reference, lookup usages of symbols and so on are all very important things to have.
sneak 3y ago
The time spent doing input is a tiny fraction of time spent coding, yes. However, it is all wasted time, and reducing it leaves more time free for thinking. There are many syntax-aware vim verbs (ci[ or ci” for example) that save a lot of time and let me get back faster to thinking about the what and not the how. Too much time on the how and my ADD kicks in, sure as someone walking into my office and trying to talk to me.

yoyohello13 3y ago

I would classify myself as a vim power user and I agree with this take. I think I'm probably equally as productive as a person that really knows their editor of choice. The productivity benefits mostly just come from knowing what things your editor is capable of. However, I subjectively feel a twinge of frustration whenever I need to take my hands off the keyboard to reach for a mouse. So using vim makes a massive impact on my day to day wellbeing.

sodapopcan 3y ago
Ya, any carpal tunnel-type problems I was experiencing went away when I became proficient at Vim. I've never thought much about the productivity gains... I'm generally slow anyway, ha. But not having to move my hands away from the homerow much or reach for the mouse ever is important, and beneficial, to me.

camgunz 3y ago

This probably applies to all tech workers.

smabie 3y ago

This is a realization I had after finally ditching Emacs / keyboard only life. Keybindings seem to engage your brain in a different way and make the activity more fun, but I don't think it's actually any more productive.

Miner49er 3y ago
Except in most cases I would say having more fun results in more productivity.

Cthulhu_ 3y ago

I suspect this is the case, but have no hard evidence. I can see how being proficient at vim makes it feel gamified though - a clever series of commands resulting in a code change giving people that hit of dopamine.

mkehrt 3y ago

As someone who is a midelevel vimmer and has been using it for 20 years, that's probably true. But the muscle memory is there, and it's standard everywhere. I do get a lot of leverage out of macros and text objects, features which I'm sure have equivalents in IDEs and other editors, but I know how to use them in vim.

qwertyfoobar 3y ago
I don't think there are IDEs which are as scriptable as (neo)vim or emacs. Am I wrong?
- mkehrt 3y ago
  Oh, I have no idea. I assume that they must have some features, but I really only use vim and vscode with vim bindings turned on.

soperj 3y ago

When I'm repeating something in a non-vim environment, it feels incredibly tedious to actually have to do the steps repeatedly instead of just pressing . I don't care about the productivity, I do care about not doing tedious things.

ip26 3y ago

Crazy hotkey sequences, yes. Basic sequences like ci"foobar or /foo<enter>dwn... are a pretty great user experience - although it's true that your editing speed rarely determines the success or failure of the company.

dasil003 3y ago

As a long-time vim user I admit this is probably true compared to modern IDEs/editors in the majority of developer workflows today. On the other hand though, if I'm logging into random servers and manipulating any kind of text, especially over a low-bandwidth, high latency connection, I'll make a VSCode user look like a kindergartner who hasn't learn to hold a pencil yet.

huijzer 3y ago

Hotkeys with VS code can me made mostly the same right especially with Vim mode? I like the flexibility most. Little time when switching between projects or languages because it’s always Zellij, one or more nvims and a shell and ripgrep. It just feels the most comfortable at this point and it’s nice that it’s small and flexible instead of one big IDE. But yes probably people in other IDE‘s can be just as fast.

zingababba 3y ago

I just hate touching my mouse if I can avoid it. NeoVim + vimium in the browser weee.