4 ms·

I’m just waiting for a tv that has instant startup times like phone displays, why they cant replicate instant sleep/wake like mobile phones can is a mystery to

by m3kw9 3y ago

I’m just waiting for a tv that has instant startup times like phone displays, why they cant replicate instant sleep/wake like mobile phones can is a mystery to me.

solarkraft 3y ago
My Samsung TV (LCD) is fairly quick to start up. I think slow startup times are generally a case of bad software.
- Dalewyn 3y ago
  TVs do not need software beyond the minimum of firmware needed to drive the thing. See: Monitors.
  - crazygringo 3y ago
    But as long as consumers keep buying them with the software, because they want to watch Hulu and YouTube and Netflix directly without purchasing an extra device (not unreasonable for the average consumer), TVs will come with the software. You can argue all you want but the market always wins.
    - MBCook 3y ago
      As long as consumers have basically no choice to avoid a smart TV, they’ll keep buying them whether they want the smart part or not. (I agree you’re generally correct, but at this point we don’t even have a choice)
      - crazygringo 3y ago
        You're free to buy digital signage if you want, and some people do. You do have a choice. But it's just not what most people want. Most people really do want their TV to natively run streaming services.
        MBCook 3y ago
        Signage exists, but it takes a lot of effort and research to buy compared to a “normal” TV. Normal stores just don’t have non-smart options, I bet most people don’t even know it exists. I know several people who love not having to use extra boxes due to their smart TVs, I totally get it. I just wish it hadn’t pushed out all other options, especially on the high end where subsidies from deals are less necessary.
        alamortsubite 3y ago
        Best Buy sells dumb tvs (their in-house brand, "Insignia"), and their brick-and-mortar stores always have a bunch in stock. Options are limited to 32, 40, and 43" displays, though.
        MBCook 3y ago
        Oh really? I had no idea.
        alamortsubite 3y ago
        Yep. I've needed a bunch of dumb tvs this year (don't ask) and they're what I landed on. Best Buy overnight delivered a half-dozen ~$100 tvs to my doorstep for free (I bought them one at a time), and I also grabbed some off the shelves at two nearby stores.
        thfuran 3y ago
        Also, as far as I can tell, I just can't get a commercial display equivalent of one of the recent oleds sans smart crap.
        toast0 3y ago
        Digital signage is getting a lot of smart features too, it's just a bit behind the consumer and hospitality markets.
        CWIZO 3y ago
        Can you point me in the right direction so that I as someone that didn't know this exists up until now could learn enough to know what and where to buy?
  - ChuckMcM 3y ago
    Technically correct and actually wrong :-). TVs do need software beyond the minimum to support the price asked. TVs are a cut throat, low margin, business. And the only way to eek out a bit more margin is to have some "feature" that makes your offering marginally better than your competitor's offering. That margin can be the difference between a going concern and going out of business. So from the manufacturer's perspective they do "need" that extra software. Until someone establishes the 'spyware free, dumb tv" market that will continue to be the case I'm afraid.
    - oriolid 3y ago
      > Until someone establishes the 'spyware free, dumb tv" market that will continue to be the case I'm afraid. Well, there is Sceptre. Unfortunately they don't seem to be available outside US.
      - alamortsubite 3y ago
        Insignia also makes spyware-free dumb tvs. They're Best Buy's in-house brand, which means you can at least get them in all of N.A. (maybe the same for Sceptre, I don't know). The last time I checked, they only had models up to 43". Probably meets the demands of the kiosk-mode market.
      - JoshTriplett 3y ago
        They also don't sell OLEDs.
    - 8ytecoder 3y ago
      As a counterpoint, I buy Sony TVs exclusively because they do a much better job of tuning the panel. They don't even make the panel. Sony just slaps Android on it. I'm definitely not the only one there. Sony has been known for their color accuracy for a long time now. (Sony TVs even have a pretty decent user accessible API)
      - frankgrimesjr 3y ago
        > (Sony TVs even have a pretty decent user accessible API) Do you have a link where I can find out more about this? Google is failing me.
  - katbyte 3y ago
    I have a monitor that takes an absurd amount of time to turn on, like 5-10s
    - hollerith 3y ago
      Would you please name and shame this monitor?
      - numpad0 3y ago
        Mine's Acer V223HQL. It takes ~5 seconds to power on. This is my disagreeable take, but the reason UIs are always slow is because slow UI imposes less cognitive load on users, and also developers. You're doing less, that's less work for your brain. Only very few impatient vocal minority wants quicker responses. I care, but clearly I don't belong to the majority.
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - MadnessASAP 3y ago
        I have an Acer Ultrawide that takes an absurd amount of time to wake or mode switch. Literally enough time for me to say out loud "I hate this monitor, it takes an absurd amount of time to wake"
      - katbyte 3y ago
        NEC MultiSync PA Series PA311D-BK-SV 31.1" UHD Honestly thou zero shame. I absolutely love the monitor and won’t replace it till nec makes a good oled. it looks amazing easy on my eyes with zero fatigue perfect colour and made a great replacement for my nec Pa271w which I’ve had going on 15? years now and somehow it’s still looks better then most monitors of similar specs from today Unless they enshittyfi I will continue getting nec monitors because while they are expensive they don’t make my eyes hurt like others
  - GuB-42 3y ago
    My monitor is very simple, 3 buttons: on/off, and backlight +/-, no OSD, no scaler, one input. And it still takes a few seconds to display something. I guess the OS, GPU and monitor are doing all sorts of back and forth before the monitor finally gets the signal it needs.
crazygringo 3y ago
I don't think it has anything to do with the display. It's the TV software waking itself up from power-saving sleep mode, possibly combined with some HDMI negotiation, which may involve waking up a second device from sleep like your Apple TV or Xbox.
organsnyder 3y ago
My cheap TCL TV has an instant-on mode, but it does use more power. Phones don't start up instantly from being fully powered off, either.
- brigade 3y ago
  No, but unlike TVs they consume mere tens of milliwatts when the display is off (most of it going to maintaining the cellular connection), and their batteries would be dead within a couple hours if they used as much power as TVs are allowed to suck when "off" It's certainly possible for a TV to be ready to be fully on within a second while consuming <1W; monitors do it all the time. But TV makers barely have the software expertise to respond to button presses within a second when on; developing responsive low power states is an order of magnitude harder.
  - tempestn 3y ago
    Most large TV makers make smartphones too, so I doubt software expertise is the issue. Probably more about market forces. (Consumers don't generally differentiate TVs based on startup speed.)
londons_explore 3y ago
The actual display has a pretty much zero turn-on-time (probably under 20ms). The thing that takes ages to boot up is the 'smart' functionality, on screen display, hdmi link training, etc.
- yread 3y ago
  My AOC takes good 15s to switch on (or between different sources). I was always wondering what is it doing all that time
skunkworker 3y ago
Their software takes awhile to boot. If they had something like VRRoom internally, the user experience would be a lot better, switching inputs faster etc. https://hdfury.com/product/8k-vrroom-40gbps/ https://hdfury.com/product/8k-vrroom-40gbps/
Cthulhu_ 3y ago
Isn't that also down to legislation mandating devices to be off and have a maximum off power draw? Mind you, phones seem to be doing alright in that regard.
leptons 3y ago
How else are they going to make you look at their logo for 15 seconds?
__david__ 3y ago
Sure, that's annoying but I cannot understand how syncing up to an HDMI signal can take 5 to 10 seconds. Frankly, I can't understand how it's not measured in milliseconds. WTF are TVs doing? Is the protocol so bad at getting a picture to the screen quickly, or is it the TVs? Just switching from SDR to HDR blacks out the screen for multiple seconds. Come on.
- deergomoo 3y ago
  There is a (limited) solution to this in the HDMI 2.1 spec that’s starting to become available in TVs now: https://www.hdmi.org/spec21sub/quickmediaswitching https://www.hdmi.org/spec21sub/quickmediaswitching It doesn’t solve long initial syncs but it does solve the desync when changing framerate, e.g. when you switch from a 60Hz UI to a 24Hz movie. As for desyncs between SDR and HDR, that is presumably already a solved problem, I have an LG C1 from a couple of years ago and that can switch between range modes without desyncing.
- cubefox 3y ago
  Slow SoC perhaps or badly optimized drivers / OS.
  - thfuran 3y ago
    If UI is chugging for on the order of seconds for seemingly trivial operations, I think just saying it's "badly optimized" is like saying that it's a bit of a walk from my place to Costa Rica. It could be ordered of magnitude faster and still true.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

by m3kw9 3y ago

I’m just waiting for a tv that has instant startup times like phone displays, why they cant replicate instant sleep/wake like mobile phones can is a mystery to me.

solarkraft 3y ago

My Samsung TV (LCD) is fairly quick to start up. I think slow startup times are generally a case of bad software.

Dalewyn 3y ago
TVs do not need software beyond the minimum of firmware needed to drive the thing. See: Monitors.
- crazygringo 3y ago
  But as long as consumers keep buying them with the software, because they want to watch Hulu and YouTube and Netflix directly without purchasing an extra device (not unreasonable for the average consumer), TVs will come with the software. You can argue all you want but the market always wins.
  - MBCook 3y ago
    As long as consumers have basically no choice to avoid a smart TV, they’ll keep buying them whether they want the smart part or not. (I agree you’re generally correct, but at this point we don’t even have a choice)
    - crazygringo 3y ago
      You're free to buy digital signage if you want, and some people do. You do have a choice. But it's just not what most people want. Most people really do want their TV to natively run streaming services.
      - MBCook 3y ago
        Signage exists, but it takes a lot of effort and research to buy compared to a “normal” TV. Normal stores just don’t have non-smart options, I bet most people don’t even know it exists. I know several people who love not having to use extra boxes due to their smart TVs, I totally get it. I just wish it hadn’t pushed out all other options, especially on the high end where subsidies from deals are less necessary.
        alamortsubite 3y ago
        Best Buy sells dumb tvs (their in-house brand, "Insignia"), and their brick-and-mortar stores always have a bunch in stock. Options are limited to 32, 40, and 43" displays, though.
        MBCook 3y ago
        Oh really? I had no idea.
        alamortsubite 3y ago
        Yep. I've needed a bunch of dumb tvs this year (don't ask) and they're what I landed on. Best Buy overnight delivered a half-dozen ~$100 tvs to my doorstep for free (I bought them one at a time), and I also grabbed some off the shelves at two nearby stores.
        thfuran 3y ago
        Also, as far as I can tell, I just can't get a commercial display equivalent of one of the recent oleds sans smart crap.
      - toast0 3y ago
        Digital signage is getting a lot of smart features too, it's just a bit behind the consumer and hospitality markets.
      - CWIZO 3y ago
        Can you point me in the right direction so that I as someone that didn't know this exists up until now could learn enough to know what and where to buy?
- ChuckMcM 3y ago
  Technically correct and actually wrong :-). TVs do need software beyond the minimum to support the price asked. TVs are a cut throat, low margin, business. And the only way to eek out a bit more margin is to have some "feature" that makes your offering marginally better than your competitor's offering. That margin can be the difference between a going concern and going out of business. So from the manufacturer's perspective they do "need" that extra software. Until someone establishes the 'spyware free, dumb tv" market that will continue to be the case I'm afraid.
  - oriolid 3y ago
    > Until someone establishes the 'spyware free, dumb tv" market that will continue to be the case I'm afraid. Well, there is Sceptre. Unfortunately they don't seem to be available outside US.
    - alamortsubite 3y ago
      Insignia also makes spyware-free dumb tvs. They're Best Buy's in-house brand, which means you can at least get them in all of N.A. (maybe the same for Sceptre, I don't know). The last time I checked, they only had models up to 43". Probably meets the demands of the kiosk-mode market.
    - JoshTriplett 3y ago
      They also don't sell OLEDs.
  - 8ytecoder 3y ago
    As a counterpoint, I buy Sony TVs exclusively because they do a much better job of tuning the panel. They don't even make the panel. Sony just slaps Android on it. I'm definitely not the only one there. Sony has been known for their color accuracy for a long time now. (Sony TVs even have a pretty decent user accessible API)
    - frankgrimesjr 3y ago
      > (Sony TVs even have a pretty decent user accessible API) Do you have a link where I can find out more about this? Google is failing me.
- katbyte 3y ago
  I have a monitor that takes an absurd amount of time to turn on, like 5-10s
  - hollerith 3y ago
    Would you please name and shame this monitor?
    - numpad0 3y ago
      Mine's Acer V223HQL. It takes ~5 seconds to power on. This is my disagreeable take, but the reason UIs are always slow is because slow UI imposes less cognitive load on users, and also developers. You're doing less, that's less work for your brain. Only very few impatient vocal minority wants quicker responses. I care, but clearly I don't belong to the majority.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
    - MadnessASAP 3y ago
      I have an Acer Ultrawide that takes an absurd amount of time to wake or mode switch. Literally enough time for me to say out loud "I hate this monitor, it takes an absurd amount of time to wake"
    - katbyte 3y ago
      NEC MultiSync PA Series PA311D-BK-SV 31.1" UHD Honestly thou zero shame. I absolutely love the monitor and won’t replace it till nec makes a good oled. it looks amazing easy on my eyes with zero fatigue perfect colour and made a great replacement for my nec Pa271w which I’ve had going on 15? years now and somehow it’s still looks better then most monitors of similar specs from today Unless they enshittyfi I will continue getting nec monitors because while they are expensive they don’t make my eyes hurt like others
- GuB-42 3y ago
  My monitor is very simple, 3 buttons: on/off, and backlight +/-, no OSD, no scaler, one input. And it still takes a few seconds to display something. I guess the OS, GPU and monitor are doing all sorts of back and forth before the monitor finally gets the signal it needs.

crazygringo 3y ago

I don't think it has anything to do with the display. It's the TV software waking itself up from power-saving sleep mode, possibly combined with some HDMI negotiation, which may involve waking up a second device from sleep like your Apple TV or Xbox.

organsnyder 3y ago

My cheap TCL TV has an instant-on mode, but it does use more power. Phones don't start up instantly from being fully powered off, either.

brigade 3y ago
No, but unlike TVs they consume mere tens of milliwatts when the display is off (most of it going to maintaining the cellular connection), and their batteries would be dead within a couple hours if they used as much power as TVs are allowed to suck when "off" It's certainly possible for a TV to be ready to be fully on within a second while consuming <1W; monitors do it all the time. But TV makers barely have the software expertise to respond to button presses within a second when on; developing responsive low power states is an order of magnitude harder.
- tempestn 3y ago
  Most large TV makers make smartphones too, so I doubt software expertise is the issue. Probably more about market forces. (Consumers don't generally differentiate TVs based on startup speed.)

londons_explore 3y ago

The actual display has a pretty much zero turn-on-time (probably under 20ms). The thing that takes ages to boot up is the 'smart' functionality, on screen display, hdmi link training, etc.

yread 3y ago
My AOC takes good 15s to switch on (or between different sources). I was always wondering what is it doing all that time

skunkworker 3y ago

Their software takes awhile to boot. If they had something like VRRoom internally, the user experience would be a lot better, switching inputs faster etc. https://hdfury.com/product/8k-vrroom-40gbps/ https://hdfury.com/product/8k-vrroom-40gbps/

Cthulhu_ 3y ago

Isn't that also down to legislation mandating devices to be off and have a maximum off power draw? Mind you, phones seem to be doing alright in that regard.

leptons 3y ago

How else are they going to make you look at their logo for 15 seconds?

__david__ 3y ago

Sure, that's annoying but I cannot understand how syncing up to an HDMI signal can take 5 to 10 seconds. Frankly, I can't understand how it's not measured in milliseconds. WTF are TVs doing? Is the protocol so bad at getting a picture to the screen quickly, or is it the TVs? Just switching from SDR to HDR blacks out the screen for multiple seconds. Come on.

deergomoo 3y ago
There is a (limited) solution to this in the HDMI 2.1 spec that’s starting to become available in TVs now: https://www.hdmi.org/spec21sub/quickmediaswitching https://www.hdmi.org/spec21sub/quickmediaswitching It doesn’t solve long initial syncs but it does solve the desync when changing framerate, e.g. when you switch from a 60Hz UI to a 24Hz movie. As for desyncs between SDR and HDR, that is presumably already a solved problem, I have an LG C1 from a couple of years ago and that can switch between range modes without desyncing.
cubefox 3y ago
Slow SoC perhaps or badly optimized drivers / OS.
- thfuran 3y ago
  If UI is chugging for on the order of seconds for seemingly trivial operations, I think just saying it's "badly optimized" is like saying that it's a bit of a walk from my place to Costa Rica. It could be ordered of magnitude faster and still true.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]