7 ms·
A closer look at e/OS: Murena's privacy-first 'deGoogled' Android alternative
- neilv 3y agoNoteworthy related work the article missed: https://grapheneos.org/features https://grapheneos.org/features
- _rdvw 3y ago/e/OS falls significantly behind the other alternative Android systems with regards to privacy and security. Please see this independent comparison table: https://eylenburg.github.io/android_comparison.htm https://eylenburg.github.io/android_comparison.htm And additionally the reviews by Kuketz: https://www.kuketz-blog.de/android-grapheneos-calyxos-und-co-unter-der-lupe-custom-roms-teil1/ https://www.kuketz-blog.de/android-grapheneos-calyxos-und-co... See also my table that shows historical release dates for monthly Android Security Bulletins: https://divestos.org/misc/a-dates.txt https://divestos.org/misc/a-dates.txt and the Chromium (WebView): https://divestos.org/misc/ch-dates.txt https://divestos.org/misc/ch-dates.txt
- notyoutube 3y agoI'm using microg's lineage, and something I was wondering when choosing a rom was, how secure are all those roms in terms of supply chain/developpers. There are many, with no big reassuring name behind, and it's hard to trust that what looks like a random rom from the internet is not just a full trojan horse. It would be nice to have just the one or two options, with app store and some kind of official entities backing (say, states, or universities, or distros).
- geraldhh 3y agoafaik microg is developed by a german guy with a grant from the goverment. can't get more legit than that in the android ecosystem :D
- commoner 3y agoI'm having a great experience using microG, which lets me selectively enable and disable cloud messaging for every app that attempts to use Google Play Services. microG does not implement the ads and tracking (Google Analytics) APIs of Google Play Services. microG also lets me use Mozilla Location Services to replace Google Location Services, which obtains a location much faster than GPS alone. With microG being free and open source, I trust it much more than the proprietary Google Play Services, even with sandboxing applied. It's weird that the article doesn't mention microG even once, since it's what /e/ uses instead of the Google Play Services client.
- geraldhh 3y ago> It's weird that the article doesn't mention microG even once true seems like the whole aftermarket android ecosystem hinges on the functionality of this, mostly unrecognized, component
- izacus 3y agoIt's safe to assume that there's very little-to-none supply chain protection. It's mostly all single people or tiny groups of people releasing this.
- notyoutube 3y agoSad to hear. It feels like the EU could fund some entity to manage, develop and distribute such a degoogled android with only a very small fraction of its other spendings, and that would help a lot with reducing google/apple's hold on the european market… A cheap deal.
- izacus 3y agoAndroid is a Google project through and through, so I'm not sure if basing the result would actually be "reducing google hold on european market". For that you'd have to actually have a product that isn't developed by one of those corps.
- notyoutube 3y agoI mean, it would be a step in a better direction, wouldn't it? One might start with something like aosp/lineage and potentially fork from there if needs be, or ask of companies to support this alternative rom, etc.
- greentea23 3y agoDegoogling is a misnomer imo. It's not about not using anything from Google or Apple at all. They both contribute to Linux, clang/llvm and other core open software tooling after all. It's about not using unaudited closed source code which cannot be proven to be secure or private, as well as getting away from the online services Google/Apple bake into their operating systems that spy on and tell on users as a requirement to boot the device at all. There's also some cool features that are blocked by both. Since AOSP is open source and the API is easy to target by 3rd party app stores, it's perfectly legitimate to use it as a starting point. There may come a day where Google stops releasing it in such a usable way though, and a more complete fork will be necessary to maintain OS sovereignty.
- kaba0 3y agoGrapheneOS is by far the most secure option. Unfortunately, it’s only for pixels (as the former “director” (in my opinion rightly) claims that there is not much point to “extreme” security if the hardware itself is already vulnerable, and most android phones have very shitty hardware security)
- 4ggr0 3y ago> not much point to “extreme” security if the hardware itself is already vulnerable What I don't get about this is that a lot of people who install custom ROMs do so, to ungoogle their devices, and just plainly get rid of Google. So why exactly is Google deemed to be a safe hardware vendor?
- eptcyka 3y agoThey have a secure boot chain and they allow users to use their own signing keys. Samsung for instance also has verified boot, but doesn't allow users to use their own keys. Thus, the boot process is as secure using GrapheneOS as it would be using stock Android, but this just isn't the case for any other device manufacturer.
- 4ggr0 3y agoYeah but that's still SW, if we talk about HW then using Google-HW to get rid of Google seems a bit weird. I know that Google is not manufacturing these parts, but they're probably not open-source either. I don't care that deeply about privacy/security, just being a bit devils-advocat-y.
- smallerfish 3y agoIt depends on why you want to de-google. Running Android means that you're plugged into their ad-analytics data collection. Firmware layers are extremely unlikely to be reporting personalized analytics into that engine. On the other hand if you're trying to avoid an oppressive state, you probably want to avoid any potential for a sub-poena to a big corp yielding information on you; in which case considering fully open firmware makes much more sense.
- 3abiton 3y agoThere are no real answers to this, taking trust out of the equation, the only way to be sure is to inspect the source code and build it yourself. On a side note, it's always possible to hook dns to a remote piehole setup, and monitor connections. Aside from the security issues related to roms, there are still the binary blobs from OEMs.
- maratc 3y ago> It would be nice to have just the one or two options, with app store and some kind of official entities backing I won't doubt that you know that iPhone is a thing.
- nicman23 3y agodont know how up to date it is but you can use android auto without gapps https://github.com/sn-00-x/aa4mg https://github.com/sn-00-x/aa4mg
- crossroadsguy 3y agoMaybe yes. But then look at the list of supported devices and you’d see why. Graphene is barely supported. It just supports Pixels/Google. What privacy is that which is not accessible?
- _rdvw 3y agoMy DivestOS supports decade+ old devices and provides monthly security updates for seven versions of Android, no other project does this. GrapheneOS has good reason to only support Pixel devices, they consistently do the right thing with regards to relocking, verified boot, CFI/SCS support, strongbox support, and even now MTE support. Many other devices fail to support these, eg: https://divestos.org/pages/faq#kernelCFI https://divestos.org/pages/faq#kernelCFI Even the FP4 shown in the article is fundamentally broken and trusts the AOSP public test-keys for verified boot: https://divestos.org/pages/faq#deviceBootloader https://divestos.org/pages/faq#deviceBootloader
- crossroadsguy 3y agoFor me bank and finance apps are very important and they all stop working without Google services. One of the reasons I am stuck on iOS. Not to me mention with every patch and release there's a risk of doing the whole flashing/setup again. Also, if there's a need for service some OEMs just refuse to even entertain you if there's another ROM installed.
- userbinator 3y agoI'm not sure if they had this in mind when they came up with the name, but /e/ is indeed best visited in privacy.
- geraldhh 3y agothey definitely had this in mind and i do share your concern
- TheNightman 3y agoHave these folks done any sort of actual audit on the Android code base to ensure they’ve removed _all_ of the “phoning home”? Not so much doubting their claims, more so just curious to see what they found. Is it possible google has baked in some tracking features deep in the OS, outside of gapps? Things you wouldn’t see with a mitm proxy? I’d be interested to know
- _rdvw 3y agoThey literally include Google Widevine DRM and Google EUICC: https://gitlab.e.foundation/e/devices/android_device_fairphone_FP4/-/blob/v1-t/proprietary-files.txt#L375-380 https://gitlab.e.foundation/e/devices/android_device_fairpho... https://gitlab.e.foundation/e/devices/android_device_fairphone_FP4/-/blob/v1-t/proprietary-files.txt#L398 https://gitlab.e.foundation/e/devices/android_device_fairpho... microG itself connects directly to Google: https://github.com/microg/GmsCore/wiki/Google-Network-Connections https://github.com/microg/GmsCore/wiki/Google-Network-Connec... and /e/OS default enables those connections: https://gitlab.e.foundation/e/os/android_prebuilts_prebuiltapks_lfs/-/blob/main/GmsCore/microg.xml#L3 https://gitlab.e.foundation/e/os/android_prebuilts_prebuilta... including the default download and running of the proprietary Google SafetyNet binaries: https://gitlab.e.foundation/e/os/android_prebuilts_prebuiltapks_lfs/-/blob/main/GmsCore/microg.xml#L7 https://gitlab.e.foundation/e/os/android_prebuilts_prebuilta... Kuketz covered the connections made in full at the very end here: https://www.kuketz-blog.de/e-datenschutzfreundlich-bedeutet-nicht-zwangslaeufig-sicher-custom-roms-teil6/ https://www.kuketz-blog.de/e-datenschutzfreundlich-bedeutet-...
- Qwertious 3y agomicroG itself connects directly to Google: https://github.com/microg/GmsCore/wiki/Google-Network-Connections https://github.com/microg/GmsCore/wiki/Google-Network-Connec... No shit, of course they do. >In general, we obviously try to minimize the connections to Google, but some services strictly rely on them and would just not work without. What exactly do you think they should do instead?
- _rdvw 3y ago
- unnouinceput 3y agoQuote:"“This feature is based on tracker detection. Facebook/WhatsApp technically don’t use trackers so they are green flagged regarding privacy,” Murena offered when we queried the high score for the Facebook app, adding: “We will improve this score by adding more information about personal data collection that can be found in apps Terms of Services.”" Oh, OK then. Hard pass from me for this little experiment. Coming from a former communist country this is the equivalent of "I guess if the neighbor is not using video to rat you to state police he's a good guy and you can trust him with your anti-communist ideas" attitude. The river bed of Danube-Black Sea channel is ridden with the bones of people who trusted their neighbors.
- DeathArrow 3y agoWhy not just use LineageOS?
- geraldhh 3y agoapple-style theming in /e/ is really good. functional playstore shim is based
- Almondsetat 3y agoNot having an app drawer is horrible. Even Apple finally added one
- yellow_lead 3y agoDoes lineage have ota updates now?
- pjmlp 3y ago> So this is where the dream of deGoogling Google Android breaks down into a series of compromising glitches. Yep, and this is why most people won't care.
- geraldhh 3y agoi suspect there are at least two kinds of smartphone users: the first downloads a handful of useful apps and stays with them the second downloads apps on a dayli basis the first group can be can be weaned off with pwa's
- pjmlp 3y agoIf people care about being tracked, Web applications running in someone else's computer is probably not what they should reach for.
- yellow_lead 3y ago> One account for your privacy > Your @murena.io account is at the center of the your private digital life, allowing you to store, back up and retrieve your data safely on remote servers. Not very private
- geraldhh 3y agoare you going for something specific here, or is it just a reference to @icloud?
- LeifCarrotson 3y agoAt least their incentives are aligned. Google is an advertising company. I expect them to serve ads based on their reading of any Gmail emails, Drive documents, or image analysis of Google Photos, any Google Search/Maps queries, any Chrome browsing, and notifications/app usage/other entries in Googleified Android. That makes storing documents in Google's cloud significantly not private. Murena's whole reason for being is privacy, if it came out through whistleblowing or user analysis that Murena was analyzing and selling user data... that would (I hope, though I have less faith than I used to) that would sink the company. I'm not paranoid enough to think that Google or the FBI is attacking the CalyxOS supply chain with rootkits that analyze/upload data on Murena phones in the same way they do on regular Android phones because that data is not useful to them. If they can't show ads in your murena.io email, why would they go to great lengths to read it? I do think that the only option left for those who are individual targets of investigation from a nation-state or international mega corporation is to not use cloud services and smartphones.
- _rdvw 3y agoThey've already leaked user data once and never published a follow up like they said they would, just told users to delete files/contacts/calendars that weren't their own. https://community.e.foundation/t/service-announcement-26-may/41252/27 https://community.e.foundation/t/service-announcement-26-may... Per https://docs.nextcloud.com/server/latest/admin_manual/configuration_files/encryption_configuration.html https://docs.nextcloud.com/server/latest/admin_manual/config... > The encryption app does not protect your data if your Nextcloud server is compromised, and it does not prevent Nextcloud administrators from reading user’s files. It encrypts only the contents of files, and not filenames and directory structures.
- DirkH 3y agoI used to use CalyxOS till GrapheneOS got Google Place Sandbox working. Now there is nothing I can't get working on GrapheneOS. Everything works including Google Pay. I just have a user profile for when I need to use an app that needs Google and otherwise my main user profile is just apps that work without Google. To me this is leagues ahead of any other degoogled experience because at any time I can temporarily turn on Google when I need it (and I often do). But it doesn't defeat the purpose because for the most part you can just turn it off
- geraldhh 3y agosounds about as practical as dualbooting, or is switching user profiles on android considerable more seamless than i care to imagine?
- _rdvw 3y agoYou can use a work profile via Shelter/Insular instead which makes this entirely seamless, simply swipe right on your launcher to launch work apps. They even get their own VPN slot too!
- sureglymop 3y agoIt's way more seamless, especially if keeping the google apps in a work profile. Every UI component on android where an app or activity can be chosen (e.g. the share menu) already has a small toggle to toggle between these profiles. The work profile filesystem can also be mounted and is then visible in the file explorer. The only issue is that it's only possible to have one additional work profile. Otherwise full user profiles must be used which are less convenient.
- DirkH 3y agoI use user profiles since I figured I wanted more than just 2 profiles. Am thinking the increased privacy is not worth the decreased convenience and I'd advise others to start using work profiles and only start using user profiles once you have a third use case you're sure you need
- 3y ago
- eloisant 3y agoWhat I'm wondering is: if I want to use Google Calendar and Google Maps, do I get any benefit in using a "deGoogled" Android? Or by activating the Play Store and installing a couple Google apps, am I negating all the privacy benefits I would get from a deGoogled Android?
- Kiuhrly1 3y agoNot entirely. With GrapheneOS, google play services and any other google apps have the same level of control over permissions as any other app. So you can deny access to any features that you don't want it to have access to. Others in this thread have recommended using a separate profile for google apps so it's not even running when you're not using it.
- pshirshov 3y agoIn my opinion, GrapheneOS is superior in every aspect.
- _8j50 3y ago.
- gotbeans 3y ago> deMicrosofted windows isn't a thing for a reason About this part, I'm not sure I understand. "deMicrosoft" was, and is a thing. See "windows 7 umattended edition" or "windows 10 reclaim scripts". Same with android and custom roms. Corporate greed bloats up perfectly fine operating systems for as long as I can remember, and de-bloating them has and is still a thing. Stock android is not so bad (2023); android has to cater to a broader ecosystem of vendors and hardware, hence the heterogenity and the overall not streamlined experience that comes with it, that much is certainly true.
- _8j50 3y agoProjects like that exist for sure, but they don't have widespread use. I mean, there is even ReactOS and Wine but none of those suceedes as an alternate OS like even one Linux distro alone like Ubuntu. If you like android though deGoogled alternatives are good but they're a niche
- scns 3y agohttps://ameliorated.io https://ameliorated.io
- Vinnl 3y agoWeird - I have the exact same FP4+/e/OS combination, and it doesn't feel laggy at all for me. Granted, I've never had a top-line phone, but still.
- johnea 3y agoBeen running e/OS for about a year. I still prefer a straight-up linueageOS install...