5 ms·

You're leaving out that they had a filed flight plan which for an international flight means controllers had many hours of notice as to when the flight was sche

You're leaving out that they had a filed flight plan which for an international flight means controllers had many hours of notice as to when the flight was scheduled to arrive and that they would be looking for an ILS approach and it was the responsibility of approach controllers to have a spot in the pattern for them. They arrived in the area on time, and controllers had not allocated it a spot, which is why the pilot sounds a bit peeved when told there isn't a spot. When he asks for one and they tell him that they can't give an estimate, that's the second strike. Strike three was telling him to fuck off ("what's your alternate, sir?") Controllers pulled a power play to bully him for wanting an ILS approach that reduces airport traffic capacity (larger separation distances) and in the process created a risk compounding another risk (a fatigued long-distance flight crew.) This is how crashes happen. All because the airport and airlines want to shove more flights through the airport to make more money. The sad thing is that they'll get away with it because we have a massive shortage of controllers right now (because they're underpaid and overworked. Thanks, Reagan.)

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
MBCook 3y ago
Arrived on time? They left hours late from the departing airport.
- shkkmo 3y ago
  Flight plans get updated when plans are delayed on takeoff. SFO should have had the arrival time from the updated flight plan for quite a while.
  - MBCook 3y ago
    Makes sense. Thanks. That is weird then that SFO wasn’t ready.
    - V-eHGsd_ 3y ago
      they were ready. "fly heading XXX, vectors for visual 28R", is them saying, "i'm ready for you to land". What norcal (not SFO) was not prepared to do was accommodate the extra wide gap that lufthansa's company policy would've required. it was up to lufthansa to tell approach that they're not going to be able to accept the approach in use. It's being advertised on the atis that they would've been able to pick up in the air long before they got near the airport. (well, 10+ minutes before this interaction started anyway, they can probably get d-atis anywhere). i'm sure it was said in the follow up video, but lufthansa knew what they were offering at SFO and if they needed something different they should've spoken up much sooner.
      - lmm 3y ago
        > i'm sure it was said in the follow up video, but lufthansa knew what they were offering at SFO and if they needed something different they should've spoken up much sooner. How are they supposed to know that an ILS approach - a completely routine procedure - is not available? If the problem is them not giving ATC enough warning, what process is there for telling ATC ahead of time? What was SFO going to do if it clouded over, close the airport?
        nradov 3y ago
        All of that information is published ahead of time by KSFO (and every other major airport) including runways in use, traffic patterns, minimum separations, available approach types, and how things will change in bad weather. Everything is available to the pilots and dispatchers ahead of time and in updates during the flight.
        pdonis 3y ago
        > What was SFO going to do if it clouded over, close the airport? No, land planes at a slower rate (about half) because they can no longer land two planes side by side on the parallel runways. On a day when the weather is known to be cloudy and that is factored in up front, that's not a huge problem. On a day when the weather is clear and planes are landing at the higher rate, it is a huge problem.
- lxgr 3y ago
  I wonder if there is any mechanism that reconfirms landing slots (and other aspects of the flight plan) still being available after a delayed takeoff for cases like this. Is it really just a matter of taking off and hoping for the best, or did somebody in the chain of granting a take-off clearance miss something?
  - toast0 3y ago
    I've had flights that were delayed, and then during the start of the boarding process, we had to stop and switch to a different aircraft, because the delay meant we'd be too loud for the noise curfew when we arrived, so we needed to take a quieter plane. That was a domestic flight into a small airport (LGB), but I imagine there's something to manage total flight volume in general; there's certainly exception handling to delay or cancel departures when the destination airport is unlikely to be available due to weather.
    - lxgr 3y ago
      That’s a static rule that the pilots can (and have to) comply with based on information available to them, though. I wonder if an updated (international) flight plan is checked for projected congestion levels (based on other flight plans?) at all and can be declined for that reason?
      - epse 3y ago
        The flightplans get shared and updated with every involved area. Usually those can say no ahead of time and always at the time of airspace entry (entering US airspace for example) What checks the FAA does to those plans, I doubt we'll ever know
bilbo0s 3y ago
They arrived in the area on time Huh? They arrived way outside their window. I realize they also left MUC late, but still.
- avarun 3y ago
  This is obviously referring to the fact that they arrived on time with respect to their updated schedule post delayed departure.
  - V-eHGsd_ 3y ago
    it's not about arriving "on time", it's about telling approach what they needed early so approach can fit the request into their plan. and, at least according to the initial video, they didn't until they were being given vectors for the approach.
trentnelson 3y ago
ATC works on a first come, first served basis. (Unless you’re Air Force 1/2, or a survival flight, or declare an emergency.) So just being in the system hours beforehand doesn’t really mean much. ATC don’t plan ahead based on what’s in the system, per se.
- bombcar 3y ago
  Which is why you circle until low fuel, pan-pan, and land. Calvin knew it: https://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/1988/05/15 https://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/1988/05/15
- ak217 3y ago
  I keep seeing this repeated, but it's obviously not true. ATC does not work on any such basis. ATC's job is to safely and efficiently route the traffic. Different traffic may have different needs, and if unexpected needs arise, ATC has broad discretion on whether or how to accommodate them. But being the first in line, or anywhere else in line, doesn't mean much if you're holding up other traffic - as demonstrated in this incident!
jcrawfordor 3y ago
The flight plan factors into flow timing, which is used to manage capacity, but there's no reservation of a landing time. Flight plan timings aren't accurate enough for that to be feasible when you have landings at close to one a minute. The flow timing rate used for approaches to SFO during visual conditions is based on visual approaches, so this particular aircraft didn't fall into the expectations used for that planning mechanism. Even then it's not a forward looking plan, just a rate limit on arrivals that causes departure clearances to be delayed. I'm not even sure if it works for international flights.
TacticalCoder 3y ago
I think the real issue is they promised 10 minutes max then once 15 minutes elapsed and the pilot complained, tower told the pilot to GTFO. It just feels wrong.
toast0 3y ago
Are controllers expected to manage the details of the take off and landing queues and also expected to be be looking quite a bit upstream to see what's coming up and check the details of the flight and company policies? I suspect the controller assumed this flight would use visual separation, like everyone else, when it entered the landing queue; and the pilot expected to use ILS, like everywhere else given the conditions, when it entered the landing queue. The difference in expectations became apparent only when clearance was given, at which point there's not enough flexibility to accommodate an ILS landing, and it's hard to guess when there will be a place to slot it in. Diverting to Oakland and repositioning later is a reasonable, if not optimal outcome. My guess is, if either side had mentioned their expectations when the flight entered approach control, and it had been cleared up then, it would have been quite possible to get an ILS landing on the first go round. (ATIS recordings did say simultaneous visual approaches)
- epse 3y ago
  > Are controllers expected to.... Yes. Yes they are Now granted there is usually a second planner controller that does not talk to traffic but is responsible for looking ahead, perhaps that was affected by the shortage
redtriumph 3y ago
Citation for Reagan comment: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Air_Traffic_Controllers_Organization_(1968)#:~:text=On%20August%205%2C%20following%20the,from%20federal%20service%20for%20life https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Air_Traffic_Contr....
- throwaway2037 3y ago
  The original "Thanks Regan" comment makes no sense to me. To be clear, President Regan fired all striking air traffic controllers in 1981. The same Wiki article says: <<The FAA had initially claimed that staffing levels would be restored within two years; however, it took closer to 10 years before the overall staffing levels returned to normal.>> So that means, FAA had enough controllers by 1991. What does that incident have to do with today's shortage? Nothing. Deeper: I tried to Google why is there a shortage of air traffic controllers in the United States. The root cause appears unclear to me. I found this article[1], that says: <<Secretary Buttigieg did have some promising news right after Labor Day, when he announced that 1,500 air traffic controllers had been hired this year after an aggressive recruiting campaign and a raise in starting salary to $127,000 a year.>> That is a huge salary in the United States. I'm surprised this is not attracting more qualified candidates. This tells me that this requirements to become an FAA-certified air traffic controller are incredibly strict. Does anyone know why EU / Japan / Korea does not have the same issues? (All highly-advanced, wealthy nations with lots of air travel.) [1] https://www.afar.com/magazine/air-traffic-controller-shortage-to-disrupt-travel-for-years https://www.afar.com/magazine/air-traffic-controller-shortag...
  - lmm 3y ago
    > Does anyone know why EU / Japan / Korea does not have the same issues? Because over there the job comes with a strong union and real job security?
    - refurb 3y ago
      Like the pilots of Singapore Airlines? In the words of Lee Kuan Yew… “I gave them a choice. Continue this and I will by every means at my disposal teach you and get the people of Singapore to help me teach you a lesson you won't forget. Took them 65 minutes and they decided ok it isn't worth the fight. Why? Because they know they'll lose. They know that I'm prepared to ground the airline. They know that I can get the airline going again without them.“
ww520 3y ago
The flight was delayed for several hours on takeoff and arrival, making their flight schedule less useful.
0xBDB 3y ago
Why are we thanking Reagan (sarcastically)? The mandatory retirement age for air traffic controllers is 56 and he fired them all 42 years ago. Presumably none of them were prepubescent, so they wouldn't be working today.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

MBCook 3y ago

Arrived on time? They left hours late from the departing airport.

shkkmo 3y ago
Flight plans get updated when plans are delayed on takeoff. SFO should have had the arrival time from the updated flight plan for quite a while.
- MBCook 3y ago
  Makes sense. Thanks. That is weird then that SFO wasn’t ready.
  - V-eHGsd_ 3y ago
    they were ready. "fly heading XXX, vectors for visual 28R", is them saying, "i'm ready for you to land". What norcal (not SFO) was not prepared to do was accommodate the extra wide gap that lufthansa's company policy would've required. it was up to lufthansa to tell approach that they're not going to be able to accept the approach in use. It's being advertised on the atis that they would've been able to pick up in the air long before they got near the airport. (well, 10+ minutes before this interaction started anyway, they can probably get d-atis anywhere). i'm sure it was said in the follow up video, but lufthansa knew what they were offering at SFO and if they needed something different they should've spoken up much sooner.
    - lmm 3y ago
      > i'm sure it was said in the follow up video, but lufthansa knew what they were offering at SFO and if they needed something different they should've spoken up much sooner. How are they supposed to know that an ILS approach - a completely routine procedure - is not available? If the problem is them not giving ATC enough warning, what process is there for telling ATC ahead of time? What was SFO going to do if it clouded over, close the airport?
      - nradov 3y ago
        All of that information is published ahead of time by KSFO (and every other major airport) including runways in use, traffic patterns, minimum separations, available approach types, and how things will change in bad weather. Everything is available to the pilots and dispatchers ahead of time and in updates during the flight.
      - pdonis 3y ago
        > What was SFO going to do if it clouded over, close the airport? No, land planes at a slower rate (about half) because they can no longer land two planes side by side on the parallel runways. On a day when the weather is known to be cloudy and that is factored in up front, that's not a huge problem. On a day when the weather is clear and planes are landing at the higher rate, it is a huge problem.
lxgr 3y ago
I wonder if there is any mechanism that reconfirms landing slots (and other aspects of the flight plan) still being available after a delayed takeoff for cases like this. Is it really just a matter of taking off and hoping for the best, or did somebody in the chain of granting a take-off clearance miss something?
- toast0 3y ago
  I've had flights that were delayed, and then during the start of the boarding process, we had to stop and switch to a different aircraft, because the delay meant we'd be too loud for the noise curfew when we arrived, so we needed to take a quieter plane. That was a domestic flight into a small airport (LGB), but I imagine there's something to manage total flight volume in general; there's certainly exception handling to delay or cancel departures when the destination airport is unlikely to be available due to weather.
  - lxgr 3y ago
    That’s a static rule that the pilots can (and have to) comply with based on information available to them, though. I wonder if an updated (international) flight plan is checked for projected congestion levels (based on other flight plans?) at all and can be declined for that reason?
    - epse 3y ago
      The flightplans get shared and updated with every involved area. Usually those can say no ahead of time and always at the time of airspace entry (entering US airspace for example) What checks the FAA does to those plans, I doubt we'll ever know

bilbo0s 3y ago

They arrived in the area on time Huh? They arrived way outside their window. I realize they also left MUC late, but still.

avarun 3y ago
This is obviously referring to the fact that they arrived on time with respect to their updated schedule post delayed departure.
- V-eHGsd_ 3y ago
  it's not about arriving "on time", it's about telling approach what they needed early so approach can fit the request into their plan. and, at least according to the initial video, they didn't until they were being given vectors for the approach.

trentnelson 3y ago

ATC works on a first come, first served basis. (Unless you’re Air Force 1/2, or a survival flight, or declare an emergency.) So just being in the system hours beforehand doesn’t really mean much. ATC don’t plan ahead based on what’s in the system, per se.

bombcar 3y ago
Which is why you circle until low fuel, pan-pan, and land. Calvin knew it: https://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/1988/05/15 https://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/1988/05/15
ak217 3y ago
I keep seeing this repeated, but it's obviously not true. ATC does not work on any such basis. ATC's job is to safely and efficiently route the traffic. Different traffic may have different needs, and if unexpected needs arise, ATC has broad discretion on whether or how to accommodate them. But being the first in line, or anywhere else in line, doesn't mean much if you're holding up other traffic - as demonstrated in this incident!

jcrawfordor 3y ago

The flight plan factors into flow timing, which is used to manage capacity, but there's no reservation of a landing time. Flight plan timings aren't accurate enough for that to be feasible when you have landings at close to one a minute. The flow timing rate used for approaches to SFO during visual conditions is based on visual approaches, so this particular aircraft didn't fall into the expectations used for that planning mechanism. Even then it's not a forward looking plan, just a rate limit on arrivals that causes departure clearances to be delayed. I'm not even sure if it works for international flights.

TacticalCoder 3y ago

I think the real issue is they promised 10 minutes max then once 15 minutes elapsed and the pilot complained, tower told the pilot to GTFO. It just feels wrong.

toast0 3y ago

Are controllers expected to manage the details of the take off and landing queues and also expected to be be looking quite a bit upstream to see what's coming up and check the details of the flight and company policies? I suspect the controller assumed this flight would use visual separation, like everyone else, when it entered the landing queue; and the pilot expected to use ILS, like everywhere else given the conditions, when it entered the landing queue. The difference in expectations became apparent only when clearance was given, at which point there's not enough flexibility to accommodate an ILS landing, and it's hard to guess when there will be a place to slot it in. Diverting to Oakland and repositioning later is a reasonable, if not optimal outcome. My guess is, if either side had mentioned their expectations when the flight entered approach control, and it had been cleared up then, it would have been quite possible to get an ILS landing on the first go round. (ATIS recordings did say simultaneous visual approaches)

epse 3y ago
> Are controllers expected to.... Yes. Yes they are Now granted there is usually a second planner controller that does not talk to traffic but is responsible for looking ahead, perhaps that was affected by the shortage

redtriumph 3y ago

Citation for Reagan comment: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Air_Traffic_Controllers_Organization_(1968)#:~:text=On%20August%205%2C%20following%20the,from%20federal%20service%20for%20life https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Air_Traffic_Contr....

throwaway2037 3y ago
The original "Thanks Regan" comment makes no sense to me. To be clear, President Regan fired all striking air traffic controllers in 1981. The same Wiki article says: <<The FAA had initially claimed that staffing levels would be restored within two years; however, it took closer to 10 years before the overall staffing levels returned to normal.>> So that means, FAA had enough controllers by 1991. What does that incident have to do with today's shortage? Nothing. Deeper: I tried to Google why is there a shortage of air traffic controllers in the United States. The root cause appears unclear to me. I found this article[1], that says: <<Secretary Buttigieg did have some promising news right after Labor Day, when he announced that 1,500 air traffic controllers had been hired this year after an aggressive recruiting campaign and a raise in starting salary to $127,000 a year.>> That is a huge salary in the United States. I'm surprised this is not attracting more qualified candidates. This tells me that this requirements to become an FAA-certified air traffic controller are incredibly strict. Does anyone know why EU / Japan / Korea does not have the same issues? (All highly-advanced, wealthy nations with lots of air travel.) [1] https://www.afar.com/magazine/air-traffic-controller-shortage-to-disrupt-travel-for-years https://www.afar.com/magazine/air-traffic-controller-shortag...
- lmm 3y ago
  > Does anyone know why EU / Japan / Korea does not have the same issues? Because over there the job comes with a strong union and real job security?
  - refurb 3y ago
    Like the pilots of Singapore Airlines? In the words of Lee Kuan Yew… “I gave them a choice. Continue this and I will by every means at my disposal teach you and get the people of Singapore to help me teach you a lesson you won't forget. Took them 65 minutes and they decided ok it isn't worth the fight. Why? Because they know they'll lose. They know that I'm prepared to ground the airline. They know that I can get the airline going again without them.“

ww520 3y ago

The flight was delayed for several hours on takeoff and arrival, making their flight schedule less useful.

0xBDB 3y ago

Why are we thanking Reagan (sarcastically)? The mandatory retirement age for air traffic controllers is 56 and he fired them all 42 years ago. Presumably none of them were prepubescent, so they wouldn't be working today.