4 ms·

Would you be fine if they were derivative of your work and their sales (in the case of a commercial project like the one in this article) cut into your bottom l

Would you be fine if they were derivative of your work and their sales (in the case of a commercial project like the one in this article) cut into your bottom line?

josefx 3y ago
We could ask JRR himself what he thinks about getting ripped of by 90% of the fantasy genre. A lot of sold works are comparable to badly written fanfiction with inly a thin pretense of originality.
- dessimus 3y ago
  Beyond the use of the "Hero's Journey" meta, I'm not sure what 90% of fantasy rips off from JRR. Not even Tolkien invented the concept.
  - duskwuff 3y ago
    > I'm not sure what 90% of fantasy rips off from JRR. Popular conceptions of fantasy races (elves, dwarves, goblins, orcs, trolls, etc) are heavily indebted to Tolkien's portrayals of them in his works. While many of them were based on concepts from European (and especially Scandinavian) folklore, Tolkien's representations of those races were much more specific and different in character. For instance, folkloric "elves" ranged anywhere from midgets to fairies to demons. Tolkien's nature-attuned immortals were a substantial departure from these traditions, and have suffused popular culture to the degree that they're now the default interpretation of "elf" in most contexts outside Christmas. The "orc" is an even more extreme example; the word was attested in some Old English texts but was long extinct in English by the time he borrowed it for a race of evil creatures in The Hobbit.
    - freejazz 3y ago
      But Tolkien doesn't have a copyright on the concept of fantasy races... he has a copyright on the fantasy races he wrote about. And even then, only in their specifics, not their generalities. That's the entire point of copyright. No one can copyright love stories, they can only copyright their love story.
oh_sigh 3y ago
How would fanfic/other derivative works cut into sales of the source material? I don't know much about the world, but I would blindly wager that 99% of people who consume content like this have already consumed 100% of the source material, and are just itching for more.
- ThatPlayer 3y ago
  A movie/tv show adaption of a book would be considered a derivative work. I could see that cutting into the sales of the source material, especially if it's bad. Pokemon games are a great example of people buying it for the (copyrighted) characters, while the (not-copyrightable) gameplay constantly gets criticized. A game that copies the monster designs while improving on the gameplay would cut into sales. Other games inspired by Pokemon never have as good monster designs.
- freejazz 3y ago
  It's not just that it cuts into sales of the original, it's that the author should maintain control of their work. If I write a book, a movie adaptation doesn't cut into the sales of the original. If anything, it'd probably increase them. But it's my story so I should be able to control who gets to make the movie adaptation. Otherwise I can write a book and anyone can immediately turn around and make it into a movie, owing me nothing. Heck, a third person could come and make a sequel to the movie, paying nothing to me or the first filmmaker. I think the only exception to this is the statutory licensing for music rights. Not the sound recordings, mind you. But that composition rights. Anyone can cover Taylor Swift (like Ryan Adams) so long as they pay her the compulsory license fee.
langsoul-com 3y ago
Has there ever been a case where a fan fic cuts into the bottom line of the original??? A fan fic is ultimately just a subpar copy.
- mock-possum 3y ago
  Good fan art is neither sub-par nor copy - what it ultimately is is derivative, generally in the sense that relies on the audience’s prior experience with the source material. You don’t have to go to all the trouble to establish and introduce a world and characters, the audience is already familiar with all that - you can get right down to the alterations that characterize your spin on the story. Transformative works are not illegitimate. Dismissing works like A Fox In Space (aka Starfox The Animated Series) as ‘a subpar copy’ is ridiculously ignorant.
benj111 3y ago
>cut into your bottom line? How does that work? Are you suggesting people will buy this book instead of lotr? But to answer your question. I'd be fine with my great grand kids making their own way in life rather than living off my creation to the detriment of the rest of society.
free_bip 3y ago
If I was in Tolkien's shoes I don't think I'd care a whole heck of a lot considering I'd be dead.
mock-possum 3y ago
Honestly yes. I believe once I create art and present it to the public, it belongs to humanity. I would be honored if someone else took my art as a jumping off point to inspire their own. I would have my own opinions about its quality of course, but art is not sacred, and I would never discourage someone from creating.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

Would you be fine if they were derivative of your work and their sales (in the case of a commercial project like the one in this article) cut into your bottom line?

josefx 3y ago

We could ask JRR himself what he thinks about getting ripped of by 90% of the fantasy genre. A lot of sold works are comparable to badly written fanfiction with inly a thin pretense of originality.

dessimus 3y ago
Beyond the use of the "Hero's Journey" meta, I'm not sure what 90% of fantasy rips off from JRR. Not even Tolkien invented the concept.
- duskwuff 3y ago
  > I'm not sure what 90% of fantasy rips off from JRR. Popular conceptions of fantasy races (elves, dwarves, goblins, orcs, trolls, etc) are heavily indebted to Tolkien's portrayals of them in his works. While many of them were based on concepts from European (and especially Scandinavian) folklore, Tolkien's representations of those races were much more specific and different in character. For instance, folkloric "elves" ranged anywhere from midgets to fairies to demons. Tolkien's nature-attuned immortals were a substantial departure from these traditions, and have suffused popular culture to the degree that they're now the default interpretation of "elf" in most contexts outside Christmas. The "orc" is an even more extreme example; the word was attested in some Old English texts but was long extinct in English by the time he borrowed it for a race of evil creatures in The Hobbit.
  - freejazz 3y ago
    But Tolkien doesn't have a copyright on the concept of fantasy races... he has a copyright on the fantasy races he wrote about. And even then, only in their specifics, not their generalities. That's the entire point of copyright. No one can copyright love stories, they can only copyright their love story.

oh_sigh 3y ago

How would fanfic/other derivative works cut into sales of the source material? I don't know much about the world, but I would blindly wager that 99% of people who consume content like this have already consumed 100% of the source material, and are just itching for more.

ThatPlayer 3y ago
A movie/tv show adaption of a book would be considered a derivative work. I could see that cutting into the sales of the source material, especially if it's bad. Pokemon games are a great example of people buying it for the (copyrighted) characters, while the (not-copyrightable) gameplay constantly gets criticized. A game that copies the monster designs while improving on the gameplay would cut into sales. Other games inspired by Pokemon never have as good monster designs.
freejazz 3y ago
It's not just that it cuts into sales of the original, it's that the author should maintain control of their work. If I write a book, a movie adaptation doesn't cut into the sales of the original. If anything, it'd probably increase them. But it's my story so I should be able to control who gets to make the movie adaptation. Otherwise I can write a book and anyone can immediately turn around and make it into a movie, owing me nothing. Heck, a third person could come and make a sequel to the movie, paying nothing to me or the first filmmaker. I think the only exception to this is the statutory licensing for music rights. Not the sound recordings, mind you. But that composition rights. Anyone can cover Taylor Swift (like Ryan Adams) so long as they pay her the compulsory license fee.

langsoul-com 3y ago

Has there ever been a case where a fan fic cuts into the bottom line of the original??? A fan fic is ultimately just a subpar copy.

mock-possum 3y ago
Good fan art is neither sub-par nor copy - what it ultimately is is derivative, generally in the sense that relies on the audience’s prior experience with the source material. You don’t have to go to all the trouble to establish and introduce a world and characters, the audience is already familiar with all that - you can get right down to the alterations that characterize your spin on the story. Transformative works are not illegitimate. Dismissing works like A Fox In Space (aka Starfox The Animated Series) as ‘a subpar copy’ is ridiculously ignorant.

benj111 3y ago

>cut into your bottom line? How does that work? Are you suggesting people will buy this book instead of lotr? But to answer your question. I'd be fine with my great grand kids making their own way in life rather than living off my creation to the detriment of the rest of society.

free_bip 3y ago

If I was in Tolkien's shoes I don't think I'd care a whole heck of a lot considering I'd be dead.

mock-possum 3y ago

Honestly yes. I believe once I create art and present it to the public, it belongs to humanity. I would be honored if someone else took my art as a jumping off point to inspire their own. I would have my own opinions about its quality of course, but art is not sacred, and I would never discourage someone from creating.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]