7 ms·

> Many, many users of these devices have rarely, if ever, had anything stolen from them. You don't want the thief to steal a locked device. You want the device

by hnfong 3y ago

> Many, many users of these devices have rarely, if ever, had anything stolen from them. You don't want the thief to steal a locked device. You want the devices to have a reputation for not worthing as much on the black market if stolen. That creates a deterrent effect, and is arguably one of the reasons why the average person's phone is stolen less. As to whether this effect is worth suffocating the secondary parts market, it really depends on whether you're actually a potential participant in it. One can argue that the vast majority of iPhone/Mac users never thought of buying parts or using non-official channels for repairing the device.

estebank 3y ago
The laptop could come with a USB-C "master key" on the box, tied to that specific laptop. Keep that key at home, and all the anti-theft benefits continue to apply, while keeping the owner in control of their hardware.
- LoganDark 3y ago
  I believe some ASUS laptops come with a built-in security key called the "keystone" that slots into the chassis. It's visually similar to those security devices built into treadmills that will stop the machine if it gets yanked out (by someone falling or etc). It could probably be used like a master key.
  - chrismorgan 3y ago
    The Kensington lock slot on the chassis is extremely common. My Surface Book didn’t have one, but every other laptop I’ve had has had one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kensington_Security_Slot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kensington_Security_Slot
    - LoganDark 3y ago
      It's a security key, as in a Hardware Security Module, it's not just a lock slot. Look up "asus keystone" and you can find images of it. https://www.mensxp.com/technology/games/55824-asus-rog-keystone.html https://www.mensxp.com/technology/games/55824-asus-rog-keyst... The first-party software supports using the key to unlock a hidden encrypted volume, as well as instantly locking the computer when the key is removed. I'm not 100% sure if it can be used to secure bootup.
      - c0pium 3y ago
        lol, no it’s not, it’s an NFC chip with an account ID on it. That allegedly encrypted hd is just a vhd stored in programdata that anyone can mount and read. It’s not a Kensington lock but it provides the same amount of data security as one. c:\programdata\asus\virtualdrive
        LoganDark 3y ago
        > it’s an NFC chip with an account ID on it. wait, they made something that looks like an HSM and is marketed like an HSM, but actually it's just a glorified ID card? That's stupid
- selcuka 3y ago
  > The laptop could come with a USB-C "master key" on the box Or simply with a unique private key, printed inside a tamper proof envelope? You can at least backup the private key to somewhere safe, if you want. Many people will lose the key (that's ok, not worse than the current situation), but at least those who care won't.
  - ffgjgf1 3y ago
    So both you and Apple would have access to that private key and you would be able to recover it from Apple if you lose it? Directly or the way it’s handled now. Cause otherwise it wouldn’t really work
    - selcuka 3y ago
      Apple can have their own, separate private key for convenience (so that you can reset your device using an iCloud account). Your private key is for when you forget your iCloud password (or the device is bricked, as in the article) and Tim Cook can't be bothered to step in.
      - hunter2_ 3y ago
        But if Apple believes that original proof of purchase (the receipt that the author presented to Apple in hopes that it would convince them to unlock the laptop) is insufficient (and let's assume the lack of cryptographic signing of said receipt isn't the problem; Apple can verify the receipt another way) because the original owner could've sold the laptop to a second owner and then stolen it back, then why would Apple think it's ok to accept "your private key" as proof that you're still the owner? You could've sold the laptop and stolen it back -- the exact hypothetical situation that prevents them from considering the original bill of sale -- and then used the key that you had possession (or knowledge) of the whole time! A secondhand buyer should demand the key if it's physical, but if it can be duplicated this breaks down.
        selcuka 3y ago
        > why would Apple think it's ok to accept "your private key" as proof that you're still the owner? Isn't that the whole point of this argument? The buyer shouldn't need to convince Apple. My suggestion was to eliminate Apple's power to brick a device and then be the judge who decides whether you own the machine or not. The private key mechanism is a good way to deter theft, but Apple should not be policing it. The steal back is really an edge case that doesn't need to be covered by a technical solution.
- c0pium 3y ago
  Everyone who doesn’t throw that useless weird dongle out with the box will lose it immediately. This is not a technical problem and you cannot fix it with a technical solution.
  - saghm 3y ago
    > Everyone who doesn’t throw that useless weird dongle out with the box will lose it immediately So they'd be no worse off than they are the way things currently work, except with the ability for the few who do care about this sort of thing having a better workaround than "try to email the CEO and pray that he somehow notices" > This is not a technical problem and you cannot fix it with a technical solution Funny, that's exactly how I see bricking a laptop to try to curtail thieves, only it actually does solve the problem, but only by creating a worse one
    - ffgjgf1 3y ago
      Is this the case though? From what I understood in the article: - Find My Device wasn’t enabled on the mac and it was stolen. - somebody reset it and tied it tot their account - then the same person passed it to another party and bricked it by reporting it stolen. - somehow the original owner managed to recover it Would the original owner been able to avoid all this has they actually enabled this security feature in the first place?
      - JoBrad 3y ago
        Yes, if they had enabled Find My.
    - thaumasiotes 3y ago
      >> This is not a technical problem and you cannot fix it with a technical solution > Funny, that's exactly how I see bricking a laptop to try to curtail thieves People love to repeat slogans, regardless of whether those slogans actually apply to whatever it is they're talking about.
- pjerem 3y ago
  In fact, it could even just be a plastic "owner's card" like the one you get when you buy a new lock, that, presumably, you must have to order new keys. With some QR code and the device's camera, you don't need any new hardware.
  - ffgjgf1 3y ago
    What happens when you lose it?
    - JoBrad 3y ago
      If it’s a fail safe, then losing it will impact very few people.
twodave 3y ago
The point I was attempting to make is I don't care what the thief does. I want the option to disable it if I've determined (on my own, with no help from anyone else!) that I'm not at a high risk of theft in the first place.
- hnfong 3y ago
  Fair point. I must point out that in the original article, the author lost their MacBook and then complained it was locked after it was returned. (It would be analogous to getting it stolen then having the thief reactivate the lock.)
  - cwillu 3y ago
    “must”? The lockout is only the reason that an event consisting of a misplaced device that was returned, instead turned into the constructive loss of the device in question.
    - ffgjgf1 3y ago
      Well yes? As I understand it the owner chose to not enable the security feature. The thief however did. How else would you suggest this choice be implemented? Apple selling different models with or without the feature? Because then nobody would just buy the less “secure” option and Apple would rightfully soon discontinue it
      - cwillu 3y ago
        A security feature that causes a security vulnerability that wouldn't exist without the feature, is not a good security feature. The existence of the security feature makes it less secure, for some people. Why wouldn't they buy the version without it?
        hnfong 3y ago
        The "security vulnerability" you refer to is that somebody who steals your device can brick it. https://xkcd.com/538/ https://xkcd.com/538/
tadfisher 3y ago
This also deters one from buying a used Mac or iDevice, because apparently it's on the seller to remove the device from their account, and they can lock/deactivate it remotely at will. Any proof that the device was actually removed from the seller's account is subject to forgery.
- bomewish 3y ago
  Yikes wait so is there no way to guarantee against this? Like if I buy a 4K MacBook Pro second hand on eBay surely I am able to guarantee they’re not gonna brick it on me in six months?!
  - wtallis 3y ago
    > surely I am able to guarantee they’re not gonna brick it on me in six months?! Yeah, just set up the machine using your own iCloud account, before it's too late to return for a refund.
marcosdumay 3y ago
For context I live in Brazil. Laptop theft was never a pressing enough matter for me to do anything except encrypting its disk. I never met anybody around here that claims to have done anything about protecting from it (except for physically protecting it). And nobody that I know has a locked-down device that would be worthless if stolen.
RecycledEle 3y ago
> the vast majority of iPhone/Mac users never thought of buying parts or using non-official channels for repairing the device. Seriously? People like that exist? Now I am tempted to shun anyone carrying a fruit phone.
soupfordummies 3y ago
I think that ship may have sailed unfortunately. For a while I thought--and it seemed to be-- that it was pointless to steal an iPhone for that reason. Then my phone was stolen last summer. The kind of folks that are gonna steal phones don't care one way or the other. Maybe they'll get lucky and it's unlocked (you'd be surprised!) but if not they'll just dump it in quantity for parts. The kind of person stealing a phone isn't usually very bright and making calculated cunning decisions here.

by hnfong 3y ago

estebank 3y ago

The laptop could come with a USB-C "master key" on the box, tied to that specific laptop. Keep that key at home, and all the anti-theft benefits continue to apply, while keeping the owner in control of their hardware.

LoganDark 3y ago
I believe some ASUS laptops come with a built-in security key called the "keystone" that slots into the chassis. It's visually similar to those security devices built into treadmills that will stop the machine if it gets yanked out (by someone falling or etc). It could probably be used like a master key.
- chrismorgan 3y ago
  The Kensington lock slot on the chassis is extremely common. My Surface Book didn’t have one, but every other laptop I’ve had has had one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kensington_Security_Slot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kensington_Security_Slot
  - LoganDark 3y ago
    It's a security key, as in a Hardware Security Module, it's not just a lock slot. Look up "asus keystone" and you can find images of it. https://www.mensxp.com/technology/games/55824-asus-rog-keystone.html https://www.mensxp.com/technology/games/55824-asus-rog-keyst... The first-party software supports using the key to unlock a hidden encrypted volume, as well as instantly locking the computer when the key is removed. I'm not 100% sure if it can be used to secure bootup.
    - c0pium 3y ago
      lol, no it’s not, it’s an NFC chip with an account ID on it. That allegedly encrypted hd is just a vhd stored in programdata that anyone can mount and read. It’s not a Kensington lock but it provides the same amount of data security as one. c:\programdata\asus\virtualdrive
      - LoganDark 3y ago
        > it’s an NFC chip with an account ID on it. wait, they made something that looks like an HSM and is marketed like an HSM, but actually it's just a glorified ID card? That's stupid
selcuka 3y ago
> The laptop could come with a USB-C "master key" on the box Or simply with a unique private key, printed inside a tamper proof envelope? You can at least backup the private key to somewhere safe, if you want. Many people will lose the key (that's ok, not worse than the current situation), but at least those who care won't.
- ffgjgf1 3y ago
  So both you and Apple would have access to that private key and you would be able to recover it from Apple if you lose it? Directly or the way it’s handled now. Cause otherwise it wouldn’t really work
  - selcuka 3y ago
    Apple can have their own, separate private key for convenience (so that you can reset your device using an iCloud account). Your private key is for when you forget your iCloud password (or the device is bricked, as in the article) and Tim Cook can't be bothered to step in.
    - hunter2_ 3y ago
      But if Apple believes that original proof of purchase (the receipt that the author presented to Apple in hopes that it would convince them to unlock the laptop) is insufficient (and let's assume the lack of cryptographic signing of said receipt isn't the problem; Apple can verify the receipt another way) because the original owner could've sold the laptop to a second owner and then stolen it back, then why would Apple think it's ok to accept "your private key" as proof that you're still the owner? You could've sold the laptop and stolen it back -- the exact hypothetical situation that prevents them from considering the original bill of sale -- and then used the key that you had possession (or knowledge) of the whole time! A secondhand buyer should demand the key if it's physical, but if it can be duplicated this breaks down.
      - selcuka 3y ago
        > why would Apple think it's ok to accept "your private key" as proof that you're still the owner? Isn't that the whole point of this argument? The buyer shouldn't need to convince Apple. My suggestion was to eliminate Apple's power to brick a device and then be the judge who decides whether you own the machine or not. The private key mechanism is a good way to deter theft, but Apple should not be policing it. The steal back is really an edge case that doesn't need to be covered by a technical solution.
c0pium 3y ago
Everyone who doesn’t throw that useless weird dongle out with the box will lose it immediately. This is not a technical problem and you cannot fix it with a technical solution.
- saghm 3y ago
  > Everyone who doesn’t throw that useless weird dongle out with the box will lose it immediately So they'd be no worse off than they are the way things currently work, except with the ability for the few who do care about this sort of thing having a better workaround than "try to email the CEO and pray that he somehow notices" > This is not a technical problem and you cannot fix it with a technical solution Funny, that's exactly how I see bricking a laptop to try to curtail thieves, only it actually does solve the problem, but only by creating a worse one
  - ffgjgf1 3y ago
    Is this the case though? From what I understood in the article: - Find My Device wasn’t enabled on the mac and it was stolen. - somebody reset it and tied it tot their account - then the same person passed it to another party and bricked it by reporting it stolen. - somehow the original owner managed to recover it Would the original owner been able to avoid all this has they actually enabled this security feature in the first place?
    - JoBrad 3y ago
      Yes, if they had enabled Find My.
  - thaumasiotes 3y ago
    >> This is not a technical problem and you cannot fix it with a technical solution > Funny, that's exactly how I see bricking a laptop to try to curtail thieves People love to repeat slogans, regardless of whether those slogans actually apply to whatever it is they're talking about.
pjerem 3y ago
In fact, it could even just be a plastic "owner's card" like the one you get when you buy a new lock, that, presumably, you must have to order new keys. With some QR code and the device's camera, you don't need any new hardware.
- ffgjgf1 3y ago
  What happens when you lose it?
  - JoBrad 3y ago
    If it’s a fail safe, then losing it will impact very few people.

twodave 3y ago

The point I was attempting to make is I don't care what the thief does. I want the option to disable it if I've determined (on my own, with no help from anyone else!) that I'm not at a high risk of theft in the first place.

hnfong 3y ago
Fair point. I must point out that in the original article, the author lost their MacBook and then complained it was locked after it was returned. (It would be analogous to getting it stolen then having the thief reactivate the lock.)
- cwillu 3y ago
  “must”? The lockout is only the reason that an event consisting of a misplaced device that was returned, instead turned into the constructive loss of the device in question.
  - ffgjgf1 3y ago
    Well yes? As I understand it the owner chose to not enable the security feature. The thief however did. How else would you suggest this choice be implemented? Apple selling different models with or without the feature? Because then nobody would just buy the less “secure” option and Apple would rightfully soon discontinue it
    - cwillu 3y ago
      A security feature that causes a security vulnerability that wouldn't exist without the feature, is not a good security feature. The existence of the security feature makes it less secure, for some people. Why wouldn't they buy the version without it?
      - hnfong 3y ago
        The "security vulnerability" you refer to is that somebody who steals your device can brick it. https://xkcd.com/538/ https://xkcd.com/538/

tadfisher 3y ago

This also deters one from buying a used Mac or iDevice, because apparently it's on the seller to remove the device from their account, and they can lock/deactivate it remotely at will. Any proof that the device was actually removed from the seller's account is subject to forgery.

bomewish 3y ago
Yikes wait so is there no way to guarantee against this? Like if I buy a 4K MacBook Pro second hand on eBay surely I am able to guarantee they’re not gonna brick it on me in six months?!
- wtallis 3y ago
  > surely I am able to guarantee they’re not gonna brick it on me in six months?! Yeah, just set up the machine using your own iCloud account, before it's too late to return for a refund.

marcosdumay 3y ago

For context I live in Brazil. Laptop theft was never a pressing enough matter for me to do anything except encrypting its disk. I never met anybody around here that claims to have done anything about protecting from it (except for physically protecting it). And nobody that I know has a locked-down device that would be worthless if stolen.

RecycledEle 3y ago

> the vast majority of iPhone/Mac users never thought of buying parts or using non-official channels for repairing the device. Seriously? People like that exist? Now I am tempted to shun anyone carrying a fruit phone.

soupfordummies 3y ago

I think that ship may have sailed unfortunately. For a while I thought--and it seemed to be-- that it was pointless to steal an iPhone for that reason. Then my phone was stolen last summer. The kind of folks that are gonna steal phones don't care one way or the other. Maybe they'll get lucky and it's unlocked (you'd be surprised!) but if not they'll just dump it in quantity for parts. The kind of person stealing a phone isn't usually very bright and making calculated cunning decisions here.