4 ms·

Tying your real identity to a machine is a piss poor solution to this problem, and it is as such because you're not understanding the problem itself. The issue

Tying your real identity to a machine is a piss poor solution to this problem, and it is as such because you're not understanding the problem itself. The issue at hand is that devices are being sold where you do not take ownership of the private keys used to configure it. Not your keys, not your device.

toomuchtodo 3y ago
Right, this idea that your keys are your ownership interest is not grounded in legal reality and why legal matters end up in court or with regulators: they are the arbiters of the law, not some crypto primitive (which while arguably useful and convenient for security and access control, is not what defines ownership). It’s some tech bro idea of what the law should be, not what it is. The device is yours regardless of the state of private keys on the device, what Apple’s PKI web and FindMy asset status indicates, etc. Observing a judge or regulator issue an order to resolve such an issue, along with penalties for not, makes this clear. You continue to own what you own as long as you can prove who you are (assuming you haven’t transferred the asset or belonging to someone else legitimately; save your bill of sale!). Tech doesn’t write property law, it is a servant to it and operates within the legal framework (for obvious reasons). Code and keys are not the law; the law is law.
- shinryuu 3y ago
  In this case you continue to own what amounts to a paperweight, if your laptop gets activation locked.
  - trinsic2 3y ago
    If I am not in control of the method to determine ownership and someone else is. its not ownership. At the very least, determining ownership should be in the hands of a system that independent of the product purchased and has a certification that it operates without bias.
Obscurity4340 3y ago
* nacho
judge2020 3y ago
Being able to "take ownership of the private keys" will benefit us on HN and not many beyond that. Apple sells Macbooks to anyone who can afford one, and I would bet money we'd see 100x the number of complaints of inaccessible laptops (via selling them or otherwise) if you needed to store keys from initial setup until the end of its usage or from people forgetting to transfer the keys to the new owner(s) of said laptop.
- ksjskskskkk 3y ago
  sell a better solution and get rich. btw what we have today is the worse of both worlds. apple et al can tie you to a identity which you cannot use to recover your data but they can sell to advertisers or act on police requests from that profile metadata.
- jtriangle 3y ago
  You're assuming such a system would be someone emailing you privatekey.txt That is, of course, a system that exists, but, be creative, lots of ways to skin that cat. In apple's case, well, they could certainly sell a device to handle that job, basically a key fob like you probably use in your car (sometimes built into the physical key without your knowledge). You could also use the remarkable amount of compute that most people carry around in their pockets to do this job with no additional device required (use your phone). Not really a hard nut to crack overall.
  - ryukoposting 3y ago
    Aren't you describing a use case for a yubikey?
    - RulerOf 3y ago
      I keep thinking that the right solution to this problem is to add an HSM that functions as a bearer title for the device, layered above the existing Apple root of trust, that comes in the box. It could sign an activation lock removal and give it to the device through the usb port. If the HSM is lost or fails, revert to the status quo.
jimt1234 3y ago
First time I've heard "Not your keys, not your device." I love it. Thanks.
- ryandrake 3y ago
  I think it comes from the world of cryptocurrency: "Not your keys, not your coins". Really, it can be extended to a lot of troublesome issues in computing. Like cloud computing: "Not your metal, not your machine" and storage: "Not your drive, not your data". Or E-mail hosting: "Not your domain, not your... well I can't figure out a clever phrase there but you get the point." We delegate so much important stuff to faceless, opaque corporations, and then act all "Shocked Pikachu" when we realize our stuff really isn't ours.

toomuchtodo 3y ago

Right, this idea that your keys are your ownership interest is not grounded in legal reality and why legal matters end up in court or with regulators: they are the arbiters of the law, not some crypto primitive (which while arguably useful and convenient for security and access control, is not what defines ownership). It’s some tech bro idea of what the law should be, not what it is. The device is yours regardless of the state of private keys on the device, what Apple’s PKI web and FindMy asset status indicates, etc. Observing a judge or regulator issue an order to resolve such an issue, along with penalties for not, makes this clear. You continue to own what you own as long as you can prove who you are (assuming you haven’t transferred the asset or belonging to someone else legitimately; save your bill of sale!). Tech doesn’t write property law, it is a servant to it and operates within the legal framework (for obvious reasons). Code and keys are not the law; the law is law.

shinryuu 3y ago
In this case you continue to own what amounts to a paperweight, if your laptop gets activation locked.
- trinsic2 3y ago
  If I am not in control of the method to determine ownership and someone else is. its not ownership. At the very least, determining ownership should be in the hands of a system that independent of the product purchased and has a certification that it operates without bias.

Obscurity4340 3y ago

* nacho

judge2020 3y ago

Being able to "take ownership of the private keys" will benefit us on HN and not many beyond that. Apple sells Macbooks to anyone who can afford one, and I would bet money we'd see 100x the number of complaints of inaccessible laptops (via selling them or otherwise) if you needed to store keys from initial setup until the end of its usage or from people forgetting to transfer the keys to the new owner(s) of said laptop.

ksjskskskkk 3y ago
sell a better solution and get rich. btw what we have today is the worse of both worlds. apple et al can tie you to a identity which you cannot use to recover your data but they can sell to advertisers or act on police requests from that profile metadata.
jtriangle 3y ago
You're assuming such a system would be someone emailing you privatekey.txt That is, of course, a system that exists, but, be creative, lots of ways to skin that cat. In apple's case, well, they could certainly sell a device to handle that job, basically a key fob like you probably use in your car (sometimes built into the physical key without your knowledge). You could also use the remarkable amount of compute that most people carry around in their pockets to do this job with no additional device required (use your phone). Not really a hard nut to crack overall.
- ryukoposting 3y ago
  Aren't you describing a use case for a yubikey?
  - RulerOf 3y ago
    I keep thinking that the right solution to this problem is to add an HSM that functions as a bearer title for the device, layered above the existing Apple root of trust, that comes in the box. It could sign an activation lock removal and give it to the device through the usb port. If the HSM is lost or fails, revert to the status quo.

jimt1234 3y ago

First time I've heard "Not your keys, not your device." I love it. Thanks.

ryandrake 3y ago
I think it comes from the world of cryptocurrency: "Not your keys, not your coins". Really, it can be extended to a lot of troublesome issues in computing. Like cloud computing: "Not your metal, not your machine" and storage: "Not your drive, not your data". Or E-mail hosting: "Not your domain, not your... well I can't figure out a clever phrase there but you get the point." We delegate so much important stuff to faceless, opaque corporations, and then act all "Shocked Pikachu" when we realize our stuff really isn't ours.