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I'm interested in how the United Steelworkers thinks about the generally better track record of Japanese companies with labor relations vs. American management.
by nickpinkston 3y ago
I'm interested in how the United Steelworkers thinks about the generally better track record of Japanese companies with labor relations vs. American management.
This makes it seem like it was purely an "American First" kind of sentiment, whereas I could imagine this being better for the workers themselves.
This then makes me wonder if the Steelworkers is more company union (ie their leaders are bought off / cushy with management with lots of perks) or if this was put to the vote by the general union membership, etc.
- Macha 3y agoI don't think that applies as much to line workers in the overseas subsidiaries of Japanese companies as it does in the central company. Like, Square Enix's former European divisions, Sony of America, all run much more like companies in their home countries than like their parent company.
- nickpinkston 3y agoI believe Toyota @ NUMMI actually showed that they could win over the union and get everyone bought into their lean culture, but it took time / patience. Notably, this plant was considered a failure before because the of the antagonism between labor/mgmt led to really toxic behavior. GM blamed the union labor, but Toyota ended up firing the managers and got buy in from labor because of their long-term / labor-centric culture, including more empowerment, respect, high quality training, etc. https://www.lean.org/the-lean-post/articles/how-nummi-changed-its-culture/ https://www.lean.org/the-lean-post/articles/how-nummi-change...
- AlbertCory 3y agoAnd yet NUMMI failed. https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a5514/4350856/ https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a5514/4350856/ Then the building became Solyndra, which also failed. GM, of course, is one of the stupidest companies on Earth, so they'd have trouble selling free beer to college football fans. If you want to blame them you won't get any argument from me.
- nickpinkston 3y agoMy argument is essentially that USS is a broken dinosaur like GM, and I think a NUMMI-style culture shakeup could actually work. I generally think USS/GM are kinda beyond saving, but even incremental change could be good, and I think Toyota still knows how to run a car plant better than GM.
- AlbertCory 3y agoOnly a diehard GM fanboy could deny that. Note that Toyota did not take over GM. That might have actually worked, albeit being politically unacceptable.
- ska 3y agoIt's less clear that NUMMI failed to meet Toyota's goals for it.
- xp84 3y agoRight, and that could be just as much a reflection of the fact that American workers are very different than Japanese workers. Also in a high-cost place like the Bay Area I can see how it would be hard to make a case to keep that particular plant, instead of an inland plant like 90% of foreign automaker US plants are. And once you decide yes, let's move production to Kentucky or whatever, so our employees' rent will be $1000 instead of $2500, that's not going to be a union shop. None of this means that NUMMI failed or even that Toyota hates unions. I think all this would have gone roughly the same even if NUMMI had become a non-union shop under Toyota.
- AlbertCory 3y agoGM was what failed. Your argument about the Bay Area falls apart when we consider the Saturn plant in Tennessee. https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a4536/4332298/ https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a4536/4332298/ https://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/saturn-a-wealth-of-lessons-from-failure/ https://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/saturn-a-wealth-...
- rayiner 3y agoJapanese companies in the US follow US labor laws, and no more. Big US companies are also subject to political pressure, which the unions can exert, more than foreign companies.
- paxys 3y agoExactly. Union leaders are powerful because they control a large voting bloc and so have local/national politicians at their fingertips. If you take that away then they are left with a normal, boring job.
- nickpinkston 3y agoThere are many ways to follow US labor law though. You can be really antagonistic, or you can try to be more collaborative. The underperformance of labor/mgmt relations in the US vs. EU is a big problem for the US, as there are many chokepoint industries (railroads, ports, etc.) that are going to remain union controlled, and this sour relationship does the US economy / productivity no favors. Even from a purely capitalist perspective, we have the wrong setup for the long-term economic growth - not including any of the labor benefits that unions can provide.
- hristov 3y agoThe problem is that there isn't much union solidarity across countries and companies have completely different labor relations in different countries. As an example, all Japanese automakers that start factories in the US start them in anti-union states and take a very hostile anti-union stance. This is in contrast with the very pro union stance these companies take in Japan. But Japanese workers do not strike in solidarity with american workers. They consider america a completely different issue. Thus, it is guaranteed that as Nippon takes over US steel, they will be as hostile to unions as the laws will allow them, regardless of what their policies in Japan are.
- graphe 3y agoToyota started in California at a union plant. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NUMMI https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NUMMI saw it on asianometry.
- s3p 3y agoNUMMI wasn't just Toyota, it was a collaboration between GM and Toyota. So this example isn't really representative of typical Japanese automaker presence in the country.
- alephnerd 3y agoAnd then they shut down and became a non-Union Tesla factory.
- Spooky23 3y agoThat was a joint venture, many years ago. They also chose to open their RAV-4 production facility in Alabama vs. Ontario, despite the fact that the literacy levels of Alabamians was lower to the extent that production documentation had to be converted to pictures, adding delays. Paying illiterates $17/hr is cheaper than paying union workers $28.
- graphe 3y agoWhat benefit does Toyota get for opening in Ontario? The article's union I mentioned didn't usually have more than a high school education.
- chaostheory 3y ago> This makes it seem like it was purely an "American First" kind of sentiment This makes sense since Trump has aligned himself with the unions, transforming the still socially conservative Republican Party into an organization with an economically liberal agenda. This is probably why the Biden administration is mirroring the Trump administration’s policies
- lumost 3y agoAnecdotally, US labor union relations have been strained for some time compared to international settings. Plausibly, this is in part due to the size of American labor unions compared to their international equivalents. The Resident Advisors in my dorm were required to be members of and pay union due to the United AutoWorkers of America. The list of industries which the United Steel Workers represents is likewise ... large. When you have a union which is decoupled from the business sector it represents, then you run the severe risk that the union does not act in it's members (for that industry) interests. The RAs in my dorm had to pay $200/mo in union dues, if you opted out of the union - you had to pay $400/mo.
- 20after4 3y agowtf, $200/month really? that's pretty ridiculous. Unions are good in theory, but in practice I'm not so sure.
- Spooky23 3y ago$200/month probably included their health plan.
- lumost 3y agoIt did not, health plan was covered by a separate charge through the university or through student's own continued coverage from parents.
- Spooky23 3y agoThat's an incredibly bad deal then.
- reducesuffering 3y agoIt does not surprise me how related the US Unions and Mafia were. Seems they learned some lessons on protection rackets.