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The "propagandists, partisans and manipulators" that label themselves "journalists" and "media companies" want to dictate what posts should be allowed on Twitte

The "propagandists, partisans and manipulators" that label themselves "journalists" and "media companies" want to dictate what posts should be allowed on Twitter. They are no better than the Russian and Chinese counterparts after all. You cannot deviate from the agenda without getting censored.

qsdf38100 3y ago
You can criticize the eu, but pretending everything is at the same level is either ignorance or bad faith.
ethanbond 3y ago
I see extremely intense critiques of western political leaders 24/7. What planet do you live on?
- coldtea 3y ago
  The planet were "critiques of western political leaders" are increasingly stiffled, and governments and "independent" third parties and "fact checkers" (funded and working with said governments) dictate what's allowed to say and what's "disinformation".
  - lm28469 3y ago
    Yet here you are, criticising them with absolutely 0 fear of any kind of repercussion, and you could be 100 times harsher and still expect nothing wrong happening
    - hef19898 3y ago
      Oh, so we are back to litterally tens of thousands of people at non-approved demonstrations sayong they cannot voice opposition anymore as we had during Covid...
    - coldtea 3y ago
      >Yet here you are, criticising them with absolutely 0 fear of any kind of repercussion, and you could be 100 times harsher and still expect nothing wrong happening How benevolent! Zero fear as a person with insignificant reach and following, commenting on a tech forum (and under a nickname). What a feat! Try having 0 fear as a journalist doing your job. Or as a whistleblower. Or as a content creator. Even mere regular people expressing counter to the party line views in major issues on social media are fired, censored, harassed by the police, "fact checked" into social media bans, increasingly the target of new related laws (recent examples from UK, France), and so on. Heck, just a couple of weeks ago students supporting Palestine in US universities were doxxed, threatened, and had a coordinated effort to render them "unhireable".
      - lm28469 3y ago
        I think you don't understand how china operates. You conflate so many things at once, most of these aren't governmental censorship. Companies firing people, advertiser dropping influencers, being fact checked, &c. has nothing to do with the government Do you know what censorship is ? Do you know how china enforce censorship ? and at what scale ? If so you can't say in good faith that EU = China.
        coldtea 3y ago
        >I think you don't understand how china operates. You conflate so many things at once, most of these aren't governmental censorship. A lot of these is outsourced governmental censorship. And all of these support a single narrative, in lock-step about all kinds of issues. >Companies firing people, advertiser dropping influencers, being fact checked, &c. has nothing to do with the government Yeah, just happens to coincide with domestic and foreign policy agendas and narratives the government pushes, and government affiliated/sponsored overt or covert "fact checkers" and "independent bodies", all the way to direct orders from the government. Read on "The Twitter Files: The Censorship Industrial Complex". The private sector companie don't have to be told what to do: they just see where the wind goes and act accordingly. Nobody was fired for being pro-narrative or for firing anti-narrative people. But increasingly they are also told what to do, threatened with related ("disinformation") or unrelated (taxes and such) violations, and such. >Do you know what censorship is ? Do you know how china enforce censorship ? and at what scale ? If so you can't say in good faith that EU = China. No, but I can say that I give very few fucks in what China does, but as a person in the EU I give many fucks what the EU does, and how the public discourse is getting increasingly less open than in past decades. (I wouldn't give much fucks about what the US does internally either, but unfortunately, unlike China, they also export it)
    - nindalf 3y ago
      I would not expect that level of self awareness from Tankies. Such people always existed, and always will. They claim living here is intolerable, and yet they never seem to go and live elsewhere.
  - ethanbond 3y ago
    Yes that’s “no different from China or Russia.” Notorious for putting out public statements in contradiction to other people’s statements!
    - coldtea 3y ago
      Did I say "no different from China or Russia"? (1) Or are you notorious for making it ad-hominem, and of putting statements in other people's mouths they didn't make? Yes, I frequently hold opinions "in contradiction to other people’s statements" and state them. I wouldn't do it if I knew that such blatant individuality isn't approved! Though surely "putting out public statements in contradiction to other people’s statements" is true for any non trivial statement one can make about a subject that has at least two sides: it would be in contradiction with some people's statements, and in agreement with other people's statements. So, isn't your accusation basically boiling down to: "putting out public statements in contradiction to [your preferred people’s] statements"? (1) And isn't that a pretty low bar to be happy about?
      - ethanbond 3y ago
        GP, who I replied to, did indeed say exactly that. I asked which planet they’re from and you hopped in to explain.
        coldtea 3y ago
        Yes, and I explained that we're in a planet were western free speech is increasingly stiffled by the governments and cooperating private sector. If find it abhorrent, even if it passes the low bar of "not equal to China" (which I find irrelevant). Do you disagree with that?
        ethanbond 3y ago
        In general I’d like stronger speech protections but I find your approach to be hysterical and counterproductive. For example, I don’t think it’s right to say the government cannot possibly request content moderation action, nor do I think it’s right to say that a private company can’t voluntarily cooperate with such a request. So your whole hysterical “private companies can’t stand up to this!” is actually adding to the problem by giving the impression they cannot. In reality, they can, they should, and they very often do.
- Dalewyn 3y ago
  I'm not sure if you just didn't notice, but public and private gatherings were unilaterally outlawed just 2~3 years ago in the name of national emergencies. The freedoms we enjoy here in the west are closer to erasure than you realize.
  - ethanbond 3y ago
    “Unilaterally” outlawed by elected governments who can be peacefully deposed, that is to say, not unilaterally at all. It’s worth being paranoid about our freedoms, which is why I take issue with the characterization that we are just the same as China and Russia. We are neither as helpless nor as victimized as those people.
    - lbeltrame 3y ago
      > “Unilaterally” outlawed by elected governments who can be peacefully deposed, that is to say, not unilaterally at all. Well... It took one signature on an administrative act and almost everyone in Italy, not in China, was under house arrest for 70 days with armed soldiers on the streets. No oversight, no checks and balances, no constitution, nothing. This warrants being very careful of any government activity. And at some point someone even suggested to postpone elections. But more on topic, the only reason the Commission is going gung-ho is because of the elections next year. They are very afraid.
      - ethanbond 3y ago
        Is your impression that democracies function by referendum on every major issue, especially during moments of crisis? > And at some point someone even suggested to postpone elections. I'm sorry someone suggested that. > But more on topic, the only reason the Commission is going gung-ho is because of the elections next year They are very afraid. Right, because they in fact don't have unilateral power.
        lbeltrame 3y ago
        It is my impression that checks and balances, constitutions etc need to work exactly in times of crisis. If they only work when everything is all right, they are useless. Especially when it comes to freedom. The fact that a government minister even wrote in a book (hastily taken off the market) that he hoped the situation would be used for "a new cultural hegemony" speaks volumes. Didn't dictatorships always use justifications for threats or emergencies to be instated? An emergency doesn't justify taking away fundamental freedoms. Hence, anything the EU does in this space, justified or not, must be scrutinized.
- ofcourseitsab 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - victorbjorklund 3y ago
    Who do you think "run" France?
    - ofcourseitsab 3y ago
      [flagged]
lm28469 3y ago
> You cannot deviate from the agenda without getting censored.` The main difference is that the """agenda""" is a well lit 8 lane highway with the occasional crash in Europe and in Russia/China it's a dark twisty path in a very dense forest with wolves at each bends But yes sure, Europe is literally a dictatorship, and thousands of people are sent to jail for criticising any arbitrary thing
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- bondarchuk 3y ago
  The ease of following censorship has no bearing on whether censorship is authoritatian or not.
  - lm28469 3y ago
    Literally every single country on this planet has censorship one way or the other, some a bit, some a lot, what you're saying is that any censorship = China tier authoritarianism ?
    - Nathanba 3y ago
      Pretty easy to see how the EU is simply legislating whatever is comfortable for its leaders instead of what is right: https://www.dw.com/en/calling-prophet-muhammad-a-pedophile-does-not-fall-within-freedom-of-speech-european-court/a-46050749 https://www.dw.com/en/calling-prophet-muhammad-a-pedophile-d...
    - bondarchuk 3y ago
      My point is that the important difference, i.e. the difference between autoritarianism and democracy, is how the agenda comes about, not what the agenda is at any specific moment. We would like to bring about a certain agenda through democratic means, and maintain (or change) it through democratic means, and for that it is important that the agenda and those implementing it (i.e. EU politicians in this case) can be criticized limitlessly. Initially, when censorship is implemented but the agenda is still largely unchanged, it might look like there's not much of a problem since after all the actions actually undertaken by the government are still those that the majority of the population agrees with. But by that point it has already become a little more difficult to peacefully remove people from power, because they now have an extra tool to remain in power, namely censorship. >what you're saying is that any censorship = China tier authoritarianism ? I think where you are disagreeing with mustafa_pasi is that you are comparing the end results of authoritarianism after different amounts of time, whereas mustafa_pasi is comparing the methods of governance that lead to and maintain those end results. You are right that the situation on the ground is not as bad in Europe as it is in China or Russia, but (IMHO) mustafa_pasi is right that people who want to limit what can be said are "no better than the Russian and Chinese counterparts" in their disregard for democratic values and methods.
camillomiller 3y ago
[flagged]
batter 3y ago
Something similar in EU? https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/03/09/russia-brutal-arrests-and-torture-ill-treatment-anti-war-protesters https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/03/09/russia-brutal-arrests-an... https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65129231 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65129231 https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/17/russian-artist-jailed-for-seven-years-over-anti-war-price-tag-protest https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/17/russian-artist-jai... https://www.npr.org/2022/03/02/1083911717/russian-police-jail-kids-who-took-flowers-and-no-to-war-signs-to-ukraines-embass https://www.npr.org/2022/03/02/1083911717/russian-police-jai... https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/12/08/china-detains-journalists-dangers-2021-report/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/12/08/china-detain... which planet are you from?
- ofcourseitsab 3y ago
  [flagged]

qsdf38100 3y ago

You can criticize the eu, but pretending everything is at the same level is either ignorance or bad faith.

ethanbond 3y ago

I see extremely intense critiques of western political leaders 24/7. What planet do you live on?

coldtea 3y ago
The planet were "critiques of western political leaders" are increasingly stiffled, and governments and "independent" third parties and "fact checkers" (funded and working with said governments) dictate what's allowed to say and what's "disinformation".
- lm28469 3y ago
  Yet here you are, criticising them with absolutely 0 fear of any kind of repercussion, and you could be 100 times harsher and still expect nothing wrong happening
  - hef19898 3y ago
    Oh, so we are back to litterally tens of thousands of people at non-approved demonstrations sayong they cannot voice opposition anymore as we had during Covid...
  - coldtea 3y ago
    >Yet here you are, criticising them with absolutely 0 fear of any kind of repercussion, and you could be 100 times harsher and still expect nothing wrong happening How benevolent! Zero fear as a person with insignificant reach and following, commenting on a tech forum (and under a nickname). What a feat! Try having 0 fear as a journalist doing your job. Or as a whistleblower. Or as a content creator. Even mere regular people expressing counter to the party line views in major issues on social media are fired, censored, harassed by the police, "fact checked" into social media bans, increasingly the target of new related laws (recent examples from UK, France), and so on. Heck, just a couple of weeks ago students supporting Palestine in US universities were doxxed, threatened, and had a coordinated effort to render them "unhireable".
    - lm28469 3y ago
      I think you don't understand how china operates. You conflate so many things at once, most of these aren't governmental censorship. Companies firing people, advertiser dropping influencers, being fact checked, &c. has nothing to do with the government Do you know what censorship is ? Do you know how china enforce censorship ? and at what scale ? If so you can't say in good faith that EU = China.
      - coldtea 3y ago
        >I think you don't understand how china operates. You conflate so many things at once, most of these aren't governmental censorship. A lot of these is outsourced governmental censorship. And all of these support a single narrative, in lock-step about all kinds of issues. >Companies firing people, advertiser dropping influencers, being fact checked, &c. has nothing to do with the government Yeah, just happens to coincide with domestic and foreign policy agendas and narratives the government pushes, and government affiliated/sponsored overt or covert "fact checkers" and "independent bodies", all the way to direct orders from the government. Read on "The Twitter Files: The Censorship Industrial Complex". The private sector companie don't have to be told what to do: they just see where the wind goes and act accordingly. Nobody was fired for being pro-narrative or for firing anti-narrative people. But increasingly they are also told what to do, threatened with related ("disinformation") or unrelated (taxes and such) violations, and such. >Do you know what censorship is ? Do you know how china enforce censorship ? and at what scale ? If so you can't say in good faith that EU = China. No, but I can say that I give very few fucks in what China does, but as a person in the EU I give many fucks what the EU does, and how the public discourse is getting increasingly less open than in past decades. (I wouldn't give much fucks about what the US does internally either, but unfortunately, unlike China, they also export it)
  - nindalf 3y ago
    I would not expect that level of self awareness from Tankies. Such people always existed, and always will. They claim living here is intolerable, and yet they never seem to go and live elsewhere.
- ethanbond 3y ago
  Yes that’s “no different from China or Russia.” Notorious for putting out public statements in contradiction to other people’s statements!
  - coldtea 3y ago
    Did I say "no different from China or Russia"? (1) Or are you notorious for making it ad-hominem, and of putting statements in other people's mouths they didn't make? Yes, I frequently hold opinions "in contradiction to other people’s statements" and state them. I wouldn't do it if I knew that such blatant individuality isn't approved! Though surely "putting out public statements in contradiction to other people’s statements" is true for any non trivial statement one can make about a subject that has at least two sides: it would be in contradiction with some people's statements, and in agreement with other people's statements. So, isn't your accusation basically boiling down to: "putting out public statements in contradiction to [your preferred people’s] statements"? (1) And isn't that a pretty low bar to be happy about?
    - ethanbond 3y ago
      GP, who I replied to, did indeed say exactly that. I asked which planet they’re from and you hopped in to explain.
      - coldtea 3y ago
        Yes, and I explained that we're in a planet were western free speech is increasingly stiffled by the governments and cooperating private sector. If find it abhorrent, even if it passes the low bar of "not equal to China" (which I find irrelevant). Do you disagree with that?
        ethanbond 3y ago
        In general I’d like stronger speech protections but I find your approach to be hysterical and counterproductive. For example, I don’t think it’s right to say the government cannot possibly request content moderation action, nor do I think it’s right to say that a private company can’t voluntarily cooperate with such a request. So your whole hysterical “private companies can’t stand up to this!” is actually adding to the problem by giving the impression they cannot. In reality, they can, they should, and they very often do.
Dalewyn 3y ago
I'm not sure if you just didn't notice, but public and private gatherings were unilaterally outlawed just 2~3 years ago in the name of national emergencies. The freedoms we enjoy here in the west are closer to erasure than you realize.
- ethanbond 3y ago
  “Unilaterally” outlawed by elected governments who can be peacefully deposed, that is to say, not unilaterally at all. It’s worth being paranoid about our freedoms, which is why I take issue with the characterization that we are just the same as China and Russia. We are neither as helpless nor as victimized as those people.
  - lbeltrame 3y ago
    > “Unilaterally” outlawed by elected governments who can be peacefully deposed, that is to say, not unilaterally at all. Well... It took one signature on an administrative act and almost everyone in Italy, not in China, was under house arrest for 70 days with armed soldiers on the streets. No oversight, no checks and balances, no constitution, nothing. This warrants being very careful of any government activity. And at some point someone even suggested to postpone elections. But more on topic, the only reason the Commission is going gung-ho is because of the elections next year. They are very afraid.
    - ethanbond 3y ago
      Is your impression that democracies function by referendum on every major issue, especially during moments of crisis? > And at some point someone even suggested to postpone elections. I'm sorry someone suggested that. > But more on topic, the only reason the Commission is going gung-ho is because of the elections next year They are very afraid. Right, because they in fact don't have unilateral power.
      - lbeltrame 3y ago
        It is my impression that checks and balances, constitutions etc need to work exactly in times of crisis. If they only work when everything is all right, they are useless. Especially when it comes to freedom. The fact that a government minister even wrote in a book (hastily taken off the market) that he hoped the situation would be used for "a new cultural hegemony" speaks volumes. Didn't dictatorships always use justifications for threats or emergencies to be instated? An emergency doesn't justify taking away fundamental freedoms. Hence, anything the EU does in this space, justified or not, must be scrutinized.
ofcourseitsab 3y ago
[flagged]
- victorbjorklund 3y ago
  Who do you think "run" France?
  - ofcourseitsab 3y ago
    [flagged]

lm28469 3y ago

> You cannot deviate from the agenda without getting censored.` The main difference is that the """agenda""" is a well lit 8 lane highway with the occasional crash in Europe and in Russia/China it's a dark twisty path in a very dense forest with wolves at each bends But yes sure, Europe is literally a dictatorship, and thousands of people are sent to jail for criticising any arbitrary thing

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
bondarchuk 3y ago
The ease of following censorship has no bearing on whether censorship is authoritatian or not.
- lm28469 3y ago
  Literally every single country on this planet has censorship one way or the other, some a bit, some a lot, what you're saying is that any censorship = China tier authoritarianism ?
  - Nathanba 3y ago
    Pretty easy to see how the EU is simply legislating whatever is comfortable for its leaders instead of what is right: https://www.dw.com/en/calling-prophet-muhammad-a-pedophile-does-not-fall-within-freedom-of-speech-european-court/a-46050749 https://www.dw.com/en/calling-prophet-muhammad-a-pedophile-d...
  - bondarchuk 3y ago
    My point is that the important difference, i.e. the difference between autoritarianism and democracy, is how the agenda comes about, not what the agenda is at any specific moment. We would like to bring about a certain agenda through democratic means, and maintain (or change) it through democratic means, and for that it is important that the agenda and those implementing it (i.e. EU politicians in this case) can be criticized limitlessly. Initially, when censorship is implemented but the agenda is still largely unchanged, it might look like there's not much of a problem since after all the actions actually undertaken by the government are still those that the majority of the population agrees with. But by that point it has already become a little more difficult to peacefully remove people from power, because they now have an extra tool to remain in power, namely censorship. >what you're saying is that any censorship = China tier authoritarianism ? I think where you are disagreeing with mustafa_pasi is that you are comparing the end results of authoritarianism after different amounts of time, whereas mustafa_pasi is comparing the methods of governance that lead to and maintain those end results. You are right that the situation on the ground is not as bad in Europe as it is in China or Russia, but (IMHO) mustafa_pasi is right that people who want to limit what can be said are "no better than the Russian and Chinese counterparts" in their disregard for democratic values and methods.

camillomiller 3y ago

[flagged]

batter 3y ago

Something similar in EU? https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/03/09/russia-brutal-arrests-and-torture-ill-treatment-anti-war-protesters https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/03/09/russia-brutal-arrests-an... https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65129231 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65129231 https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/17/russian-artist-jailed-for-seven-years-over-anti-war-price-tag-protest https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/17/russian-artist-jai... https://www.npr.org/2022/03/02/1083911717/russian-police-jail-kids-who-took-flowers-and-no-to-war-signs-to-ukraines-embass https://www.npr.org/2022/03/02/1083911717/russian-police-jai... https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/12/08/china-detains-journalists-dangers-2021-report/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/12/08/china-detain... which planet are you from?

ofcourseitsab 3y ago
[flagged]