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Are electric cars too expensive to tempt motorists away from petrol vehicles?

palemoonale 3y ago
It is not only this. For me it is public greenwashing, that 'modern is always better' fallacy, subsidies (follow the money!), environmental impact of battery components, daily and seasonal inconveniences, even more SW instead of easily repairable mechanical parts, being forced by a vocal minority tru tax, social, and other penalties, etc. etc. Offer me an Hyuandai N74 and we'll talk.
- Dalewyn 3y ago
  As an aside since we're apparently bringing out the woodworks here, why is it that nearly all electric vehicles look like crap? Seriously, their designs are nearly all terrible compared to gas/diesel cars.
  - bombcar 3y ago
    I suspect it was started by the Toyota Pius which was designed to look different so everyone would know how good you were. But Teslas look like cars to me, so I think the era of “it’s electric so it has to look weird” is at its end.
  - hightrix 3y ago
    This is one of my biggest complaints. Many EVs look like they are EVs. I want an EV that looks like a car.
    - dieselgate 3y ago
      The e-golf is certainly the most modest EV i've seen around
      - jeffrallen 3y ago
        Renault Zoes look like regular cars too.
  - fwungy 3y ago
    They need to incorporate a large, heavy battery that needs to sit at the bottom of the vehicle for stability. That means a large footprint to keep a low roofline, or a high roofline for a smaller footprint. All EVs must work battery and range into their aesthetics, and it's a design imposition. The Tesla Roadster looked good, but it was a based on a Lotus ICE and traded interior space for aesthetics, as well as limited range: too impractical for most. The Prius looks dull because it's tuned for ultimate efficiency while also paying a small roofline/footprint penalty for its battery in aesthetics. It would be interesting to see what a max efficiency ICE Prius would be like. I bet it could do high 30's mpg, maybe even 40, would look better, and be substantially cheaper.
- graemep 3y ago
  New ICE cars increasingly have the same reliance on software. The lifetime of all cars will be capped by software support - particularly as they become more network connected.
nottorp 3y ago
If fuel costs aren't a large part of your cost of ownership, yes. If you commute from the suburbs, maybe not.
techterrier 3y ago
Just get rid of the damn cars.
- speedgoose 3y ago
  In city centres for sure. In the country side, the population density makes public transports more challenging. People could walk or bike or ski but that would reduce their life quality. It’s difficult to reduce your life quality unless you are forced. I don’t see country side people giving up their cars.
  - kiba 3y ago
    Most people live in urban areas. Even in suburban areas, the bicycle could be a viable form of transportation. My grocery store is literally under ten minutes away by bike, but it is essentially a nightmare to bike to because of a lack of safe cycling infrastructures.
    - mrangle 3y ago
      Bicycling is a viable form of transportation, for short distances and recreation. However, it isn't an option for many if not most needs outside of the house even in suburbia. Not to mention the rural areas / exurbs. A Mom of a couple of kids can't transport her weekly food shop on a bike. Ignoring the inherent danger in getting to the store. I feel like this is a planning conversation for before the era when they decided to make US planning completely car centric and isolating, in a manner that can't be easily nor quickly reversed in a real way.
      - multjoy 3y ago
        >A Mom of a couple of kids can't transport her weekly food shop on a bike They can if said bike is an e-cargo bike.
      - kiba 3y ago
        I am just saying that in my suburban context, a bike could make sense if there's proper bike infrastructure. It would also make sense if there's a plan to reduce the amount of traffic because the road is used for through traffic both way which makes residents in the neighborhoods being forced to wait a long time before they're able to enter the road safely. There's also a gas station much nearer, but it's not very easy to bike there. Walking there can get your shoes very muddy. There are also offices building nearby too, but once again, it's not very easy to get there on foot or bike. This is all within my local suburban context, but it's not easy to do when large stroad make it difficult to cross relatively short distance, or when protected bike lanes and sidewalks are extremely lacking, or when crossing the road is a dangerous activity or when getting to your local gas station might get your shoes muddy and wet.
throwaway22032 3y ago
It's a very specific perspective to assume that the sticker price is relevant. Almost no-one I know owns a new car regardless of their income bracket. 5-10 years old is the norm. Many have cars that are just on the cusp of the emissions regulations (approx 15-20 year old petrol car in London). A car that costs 3K is perfectly serviceable, you can drive across the country with it. I don't think I could find an electric car with even a 200 mile range for less than five times that. Since the Ukraine war electricity has been more expensive than petrol too.
- azherebtsov 3y ago
  I totally agree with you. When I’m thinking about switching to, say Tesla X, I need to explain myself how that could be cheaper during lifetime (how long is that by the way?)? The sticker tag is 10 times of the money I paid for my used one and on top of that insurance will cost as much as another used one. Only the first year of owning Tesla x will cost as eleven cars like I have now. But that comparison would be more fair if I will compare with used Tesla. Not too many around though.
d1sxeyes 3y ago
Answer: yes. The article concedes that TCO over the lifetime of the vehicle is only just at parity with the middle of the petrol car range, the upfront cost is higher, insurance costs tend to be higher, and on top of that you have “range anxiety” to worry about. There are certainly pros to electric cars, but as yet price is not one.
- fnordpiglet 3y ago
  The crucial aspect here is “yet.” Most car makers are on their very first foray into EV, but have been perfecting efficiencies in ICE for many decades. The summary judgement articles and whatnot declaring EV dead on arrival ignore that ICE marginal improvements are slow and expensive, while EV marginal improvements are fast and cheap. How long until EV are cheaper and more reliable? I’ll wager in the span of 5 years. Then over the equivalent span of ICE dominance EV will continue to improve to a platform that will make ICE look like horse buggies.
  - Ferret7446 3y ago
    As you say, The crucial aspect here is “yet” meaning at the moment, no. In the future, maybe yes, maybe still no. Until and if that day comes, then yes. But right now it's no. Speculation is speculation.
    - fnordpiglet 3y ago
      No, as an EV owner I’m 98% confident ICE is over. The age of fire is ending and the age of maxwells equations is upon us. ICE is fundamentally too complex. The primary issue in EV is battery tech, and that is advancing so rapidly with so much investment that the 5 year roadmap of CATL and others already addresses almost all the issues, and there’s a ton of wildcard battery tech looming with intense interest. There’s nothing on the roadmap on ICE. There is no roadmap, just entrenched interests.
      - d1sxeyes 3y ago
        Right, but we’re not talking about the tech, we’re talking about price. For at least the next 25 years, for a lot of people, the significant up-front cost of buying an EV will push them to keep older ICE vehicles on life support in a Captain Vimes’s boots sort of way.
mg 3y ago
This reminds me of the discussions some years ago whether one should invest in an SSD when buying a new laptop or stay with a spinning disk. Nowadays, barely any new laptops are released without an SSD. When it comes to electric versus petrol, I often think about the fact that the sun sends more energy to earth in an hour than all of mankind uses in a year. I guess that in theory, all that energy could be captured with parts that need no service at all and do not degrade? Of course, we will not practically reach that efficiency. But we will continue to improve towards this limit. When I think of what it takes to dig for oil and all the steps needed to turn that into a moving car, the way we are heading seems clear.
- kiba 3y ago
  Does that mean mankind has to grow its energy usage 24 times to match the energy absorbed by the Earth?
  - eternauta3k 3y ago
    More like 24 * 365 times.
  - defrost 3y ago
    Assuming the quoted figures are correct ... it'd be more like 24 x 365 (and a bit) to match the per hour input to per year usage.
  - smellf 3y ago
    24 * 365 times
  - mg 3y ago
    Thinking about energy usage always puzzles me. I'm not even sure if driving a car from one city to another really uses energy. For example, let's look at it this way: The energy from the sun is heating earth. When we use some of it to drive a solar-powered electric car from one city to another, does that lower the temperature of planet earth? I would think it does not. So why did we get the energy to drive the car for free? I would think that the surprising answer is: Moving something from A to B does not use energy at all. But I'm not sure.
tfrutuoso 3y ago
Yes? Not only that, most of them look terrible and the driving technique has to change dramatically to get any half decent range. It's a lot less engaging to daily an EV.
- speedgoose 3y ago
  If you accelerate as slow as a median ICE car, the range shouldn’t be too bad. If you find it difficult not to press the accelerator pedal too hard, you can always use eco mode, chill mode, or Toyota mode, whatever it is called. I find daily an EV much nicer as the driving is more silent, more smooth, the car is warmer faster, you don’t need to go to the oil and gas station once a while if you can charge at home or at work. And the torque curve and the response time are so much better than all the car enthousiastes ICE cars in a similar price range.
- relativ575 3y ago
  Most of them look exactly like the ICE versions of the same maker. Can you give example of EVs that you don't like, and the ICE vehicles that you like?
  - Nextgrid 3y ago
    A lot of the entry-level, "city" EVs do indeed look stupid. This is less of a problem as you go up in the range though and indeed high-end EVs look barely any different than their ICE counterparts.
- itishappy 3y ago
  An EV would be a poor fit for people who drive hundreds of thousands of miles per year. That's an impressive daily commute.
cpursley 3y ago
My concern is safety (car wreaks), distaste for touch interfaces (also safety related) and the environmental (ironic, I know) and social impact of rare earths mining.
- MilaM 3y ago
  Rare earths are not a major component in car batteries. They are mostly used in the electric motors for the magnets and it's acutally quite easy to replace them. Mining of lithium, copper, nickel, will have to expand in the future. But it's nothing in comparison to the damage that is done with the extraction of oil and gas.
  - wazoox 3y ago
    Yes, people afraid of rare earth and lithium mining should get some numbers right first: We extract 4 BILLION TONS of oil from the ground every year. In comparison, we extract a few million tons of lithium (and it's reusable / recyclable), and a few tens of thousand tons of rare earths. The FUD about mining is pure big oil propaganda, frankly.
    - baq 3y ago
      Oil (let’s forget about Canada oil sands for a minute here) is pumped out of the ground. Lithium and copper is strip mined and lithium salts are dried in toxic pools. I’m all for the electric transition because oil will run out but this needs figuring out environmentally.
      - wazoox 3y ago
        Oil is burnt into CO2 that will remain for centuries in the atmosphere, heating it up (and I'm not mentioning countless toxic oil spills, methane leaking, etc). It's less immediately visible and acutely dangerous than toxic pools, but it's really bad.
    - cpursley 3y ago
      Is it just pure FUD? There's some very negative and well documented externalities with lithium mining in particular like child slavery and major environmental pollution. It's not something "big oil" is just making up.
napolux 3y ago
Where I live (Italy) is still a matter of infrastructure. Situation is improving, but I'm not ready to live with the constant fear of not finding a charging station, especially if I need to travel thru the country or in the countryside. I'm not ready yet. I'll be more for plug-in cars in a 5-years span.
- poisonborz 3y ago
  I was traveling with an EC in countryside Italy 2y ago and had no problems finding public chargers.
raphaelj 3y ago
"Politicians in Europe know they will eventually have to impose taxes on electricity (or else raise income taxes)" I heard that a lot, but are we sure about this? Petrol in Europe is taxed at about 50%, but is almost exclusively imported, thus this is the only income for gouvernements. Electricity, on the other side, is also taxed (about 25% here in Belgium). But's it's almost entirely produced in the Union, which creates additional income and thus taxes. In the end the government income generated by electricity production is most probably around 50% too. Add to that the external costs of petrol cars that electric cars don't have (at least not as much), such as the huge impact of pollution on the healthcare sector, climate change, or the negative import balance caused by the import of fossil fuel... And it might well be that electric vehicles will be a better deal overall tax wise.
- whatevaa 3y ago
  Petrol taxes include road tax in a lot of places, that will have to be replaced somehow once the share of electric cars becomes big enough.
  - ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
    Which countries do that? (Genuinely curious) Here in the UK, there's a lot of drivers who believe that road tax exists (not since 1937) and whilst there's a similar concept with VED (Vehicle Excise Duty), it's not used used specifically for fixing roads - that comes from general taxation. Due to the misinformation, we sometimes get EV drivers complaining about cyclists because "they don't pay road tax", whereas EV owners don't even pay VED as it's based on tailpipe emissions. This means that cyclists (and pedestrians etc) are in effect subsidising the heavy vehicle drivers and helping to pay for the damage that heavy vehicles cause to the roads (roughly proportional to the fourth power of weight of the vehicle).
- MilaM 3y ago
  I don't think we will increasy taxes for electricity. How do you even to that, when most cars are charged at home. The more likely scenario is that governments will impose higher road use charges. That has been a trend anyway in most of the developed world.
zhrvoj 3y ago
Beside all of that, if you convert let's say 1/10 of cars with internal combustion engines to electric motor cars, there is no electricity to charge them. Which also leads to envirnonmental problems - creating so much electricity (+ CO2 emmision from thermal-electric plants). Just count average low electric car consumption 15kWh/100km.
- whatevaa 3y ago
  Like internal combustion is any better at this.
  - zhrvoj 3y ago
    Of course it isn't. I don't vote for internal combustion technology at all. Both are environmental problem. Looking at all the (ex) hype about electric cars, sometime it looks like electrics - they clean the environment... Internal combustion will stay for a long time in heavy machinery, sea and air transport, which is also problem, if not prevalent, so electric cars will bring negligible health improvement to planet. And add all the wars - our efforts to lower carbon footprint on this planet are so funny and naive.
    - ath3nd 3y ago
      Better do nothing, accept that we are gonna burn, and crank that gas up, right?
- PaulKeeble 3y ago
  While true if you haven't noticed it Solar and Wind are taking off at a staggering rate for electrical production. At prices around $15 per MWH they are substantially cheaper than gas/coal/oil electrical production. The economics just work out now in a big way and renewables are so much cheaper fossil fuels days are numbered. Besides if you just car about the economics and not the potential reduction on the planet they are still cheaper to run over their lifetime compared to petrol.
  - 3y ago
edent 3y ago
In the UK, most people don't pay the "sticker" cost for a car. They take out a PCP or similar plan. Pay £X00 per month for Y months. At the end of the period, either buy the vehicle outright or hand it back. Or, as many people do, switch to a new vehicle. That's why you see so many expensive cars driven by people who can't afford them. No one is paying the up-front cost. They splurge their disposable income on a motor and treat it like a mobile phone - upgrade it every few years. A VW eUP (an electric vehicle) is about £200pcm. The new Mini is about £300pcm. Those are comparable with ICE vehicles.
- highwaylights 3y ago
  I didn’t realise until recently just how engrained this practice is in people’s behaviour. I was discussing cars with someone not long ago and they were really matter-of-fact about switching to a new car just because the dealership offered it to them. It came across very much as that’s just how it works and everyone does that.
  - padjo 3y ago
    I wonder do any of them realise they’re paying the maximum depreciation every single time too. Losing 20k+ in depreciation every year feels like a great way to stay poor
    - edent 3y ago
      On the flip side, using PCP means that you get a brand new car and it has a warrantee. You could buy a banger for £500 - but then you're always going to be wondering if today is the day it'll cost you £££ to repair. And if you can't get in to work, that'll cost you dearly as well. £300 per month to basically not have to worry about any unexpected bills seems reasonable to me. Plus you get the social value of having a "nice" car. The safety features are likely to be higher quality. And, as mentioned in the article, newer vehicles tend to be more efficient. Basically, it is a fairly rational way to spend money.
      - 3y ago
poisonborz 3y ago
Petrol cars were too expensive for decades
- mrangle 3y ago
  They're still too expensive. They are made "affordable" via financing. That was a banking solution. EVs can be financed. Yet they are still too expensive, over the life of the car. "Expense" also including the inconvenient differences in the manner in which they have to be used. EVs are awaiting an unforseen tech solution to their expense.
MilaM 3y ago
Right now, electric cars are still at a disadvantage because of lower production volumes. It's not only the material cost of the battery and the motor that makes them more expensive, but also the share of the development costs that each sale has to recoup. In the not so distant future I think petrol and diesel cars are going to be at a disadvantage because of this. I still own a quite old (12 years, but low mileage) petrol car, because I don't drive a lot and really only need it for errands in my city. In this scenario it's very hard to justify buying an almost new electric car. The used ones available on the market right now are still not very attractive in my opinion.
- anon373839 3y ago
  That’s not the only thing. Electric vehicles are generally cheaper-built compared to gasoline cars at the same price point. They have cost- and weight-saving compromises that make them tangibly feel less valuable.
  - MilaM 3y ago
    They are cheaper built because of the high share of R&D cost each car has to contribute.
  - dangus 3y ago
    I read an article that said that Tesla leads luxury vehicle satisfaction above Lexus (JD Power), that satisfaction was growing as of 2022, young men drive luxury car sales, and that those young men primarily shop based on technology. Surprise surprise, quality of materials per dollar isn’t always what guides buying decisions. If that was the case, brands like Lincoln, Jeep, Dodge, and Maserati would be gone by now. This is probably why Tesla emphasizes speed and performance in its marketing, because it is a spec where EVs are very price competitive. If you’re a young man who wants a fast car (a pretty common desire in that demographic) you’ll have a hard time finding gas cars as cheap as a Model 3 that can get to 60MPH in 3 seconds.
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aregreabn 3y ago
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- baq 3y ago
  You’re assuming petrol won’t be more expensive. It might be, it might not.
  - badpun 3y ago
    Right now, the price of oil is still not set by market prices, but kept artificially high by the OPEC cartel. Petrol could be much cheaper if the oil producing countries wouldn’t optimize the production (and hence, price) for maximum gains.
    - matthewdgreen 3y ago
      It could also be a lot more expensive if we included even a fraction of the extremely dire externalities burning it in a 20% efficient ICE engine produces.
PaulKeeble 3y ago
There is a big shift in prices coming with Sodium Ion batteries. At about 1/4 the price of Li-ion they save substantial money all be it a little less dense. For all but the highest range cars Sodium Ion is going to do the job and BYD is talking about $12000 cars. Not quite a cheap car yet but still given the savings electrical vehicles bring on running costs its a significant step. Its not just volume production the materials in the batteries are driving a lot of the high price. You can get a second hand Zoe for £4-5k but they are quite limited in range. A full range EV for £12k is going to be a big deal.
- throwaway5959 3y ago
  Sodium Ion energy density isn’t the best, it’ll probably impact grid storage more. For cars that need less than 200 miles of range I agree though.
ghusto 3y ago
When we can buy second hand electric cars _with reliable batteries that aren’t near end of life_ for 2k, we can have a discussion. Arguments of affordability before that point will rely on cherry picking, and I call bullshit on every one of them. I know many people pay way more for cars, even buying ones they can’t afford with loans, but most of the people I know aren’t in that group.
- drivingmenuts 3y ago
  I agree. Until there’s a cheap electric option, the bulk of drivers won’t switch. Their car is paid for, or mostly so, it works and. With some payout, can be kept running indefinitely. It’s easy to convince rich people to buy into EVs, but try getting the people who can’t afford to blow a huge chunk of money on something that has less range, less perceived power and can’t be fixed by a cousin under a tree.
  - throwaway5959 3y ago
    The average new car price in the US is around $47k, well above the Bolt, Kona and Leaf.
- mint2 3y ago
  are you saying that cost shouldn’t be a critique until the market as matured? Because of course a new product still being rolled out doesn’t have a good second hand market. It’s not reasonable to expect that.
- Kirby64 3y ago
  What ICE car can you buy that fits that criteria for 2k? Anything that’s only 2k for a car these days has north of 100k miles and likely is in pretty rough shape.
  - ghusto 3y ago
    Never bought a car for more than 2k, and never had any problems. They’re indeed usually over 100k miles, but definitely not in rough shape. In fact, my first car was under a grand, and it was built like a tank. I was not kind to that thing, and the only thing that killed it in the end was a head on collision (everyone was okay, lady got some expensive driving lesson that day). I go for older cars because they tend to actually be more reliable, and the plus side is they’re cheaper. I’m presuming “ICE” means internal combustion engine?
Bissness 3y ago
Electric cars do not make sense to own if you are not also owning a garage where you can charge them overnight. Also, if you are unwilling to add 1+ hour(s) to your travel time on longer distances.
- 11235813213455 3y ago
  and if your average distance is below 20km (and if it is they should consider moving)
- bryanlarsen 3y ago
  I did a 3000km trip 4 times (twice each way) during the pandemic. Charging added 15 minutes to the trip. Everybody has to eat/sleep/bathroom, and that can happen at the same time as charging.
  - TheLoafOfBread 3y ago
    I did trip from London, UK to Southern Italy, Brindisi in Enyaq. By Google maps it should take 2 days (24 hours of driving, so 12 hours in 2 drivers/day). Charging dragged it on 4 days and we were charging on Ionity/Enel. So your 15 minutes is some kind of a sick joke.
    - bryanlarsen 3y ago
      That's ridiculous. My trip was from Ottawa Canada to Saskatoon. It goes through some seriously unpopulated territory, unlike yours. It does follow major highways, so there are Tesla superchargers along the route every 100-150 km or so. We'd stay at a hotel with charging overnight so start at 100%, drive for 2.5 hours and then bathroom/charge for 15-20 mins, drive another 2.5 and eat/charge for 40 or so, repeat the morning pattern in the afternoon, and then drive for another couple after supper before stopping at a hotel to charge while sleeping.
      - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
        Canada has some good charging infrastructure. If you are driving a Tesla, even better, super chargers are the gold standard for EV charging, everything else is kind of unreliable.
bravetraveler 3y ago
Most of the buyers I'm aware of are in the used market - fortunately, they mention this briefly I'm curious how that market develops. I'm pessimistic about "Car 2.0" for a couple reasons First, a chance to redefine the idea of what owning a car is. For example, subscriptions to use induction heaters that you already pay to power. Second, the battery. They're consumable and a considerable size of the value. I'm not sure their market would remain I've driven too many four cylinders that I legitimately have a complex over how my car sounds. I'm driving my V8 until I can't anymore
faeranne 3y ago
Two years ago I spend nearly a month hunting for a decent electric vehicle. I had plenty of funds, and could theoretically afford a lower-end tesla. I was, at the time, driving a 2002 Honda Civic Hybrid, because to me, going electric makes sense. I was aware of the range limitations, and even had an agreement with my landlord to get a 220v outlet installed in the garage. I ultimately abandoned my endeavor because none of the vehicles provided 2 key things older cars continue to provide: Ownership, and Privacy. And key to this is that this isn't just electric cars, it's pretty much all modern cars. My Civic had a replaceable stereo headunit. How many modern cars have the infotainment system so embedded that functions of the cars depend on it? And we know car manufactures take advantage of that. Hell, even judges seem ok with them doing that [1]. Then you have the fact that repairing anything in the car is made not only intentinally obtuse, but illegal is some states. As it stands right now in oklahoma, you can do any work you want on your gas vehicle, but move to electric and you better have a $5,000 yearly certificate to touch that. Simply opening the hood can land you in jail. And we know the car manufacturers can tattle on you [2]. Then there's the fact that these cars are more than capable of moving themselves. And that system is tied to a remote service. Absolutly nothing stops a manufacturer from deciding that your car's "drive train control system" is no longer licensed, and simply shut it down. Permanently. If companies are willing and able to steal your media [3], the next step is easily to just brick your appliances. Hell, microwaves are already doing that [4]. Trains do that if you decide a third party repair station is reasonable [5]. Where does this end? Point being, till I can truly own my vehicle again, I'm sticking with older cars. I would much rather own an electric vehicle, but so far none of them are even remotely close to being something I can actually own. Price has nothing to do with it. [1] https://www.malwarebytes.com/blog/news/2023/11/judge-rules-its-fine-for-car-makers-to-intercept-your-text-messages https://www.malwarebytes.com/blog/news/2023/11/judge-rules-i... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/apr/07/tesla-intimate-car-camera-images-shared https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/apr/07/tesla-int... [3] https://www.forbes.com/sites/paultassi/2023/12/02/playstation-is-deleting-tv-shows-players-paid-for-thanks-to-warner-bros/?sh=38c88e8633d5 https://www.forbes.com/sites/paultassi/2023/12/02/playstatio... [4] https://hackaday.com/2022/03/18/welcome-to-the-future-where-your-microwave-thinks-its-a-steam-oven/ https://hackaday.com/2022/03/18/welcome-to-the-future-where-... [5] https://hackaday.com/2023/12/06/the-deere-disease-spreads-to-trains/ https://hackaday.com/2023/12/06/the-deere-disease-spreads-to...
entropyie 3y ago
No, people switching in droves in Ireland. Also, you don't need a garage, just a small driveway. Throw in a few solar panels and you have a low tax, low tco car or second car.
petre 3y ago
Yes. Too expensive, range anxiety and also having a garage is a plus. China dumping EVs on the EU market will fix the first part. But it will also screw up the complacent EU auto industry.
onetokeoverthe 3y ago
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thelastgallon 3y ago
Expensive only in EU and US. In China, VW has to sell cars for 16K, which are sold in EU/US for 35K - 45K. Legacy carmakers don't know how to make electric cars, rely on regulatory capture to keep prices high. VW cut prices of ID.3 down to $16,500 in China, while in Europe the same vehicle starts at nearly $43,000: https://www.arenaev.com/volkswagen_cuts_id3_price_in_china__now_starts_from_16500-news-2075.php https://www.arenaev.com/volkswagen_cuts_id3_price_in_china__... China reveals just how bad things are for Toyota, GM and VW: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WBV9FQvuss https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WBV9FQvuss In US, there are good deals to be found. I have a Nissan Leaf on a 2 year lease at $99/month. In the past decade, there were so many who took advantage of $69 - $89/month lease + additional cash back from state/utility/air quality rebates. Folks could buy them from 6K - 10K at the end of the lease. These deals may not be around anymore, but there are leases always available under 300. I see 2023 Hyundai Ioniq 6 for $229 and several others under $300: https://insideevs.com/features/410039/best-electric-car-deals-this-month/ https://insideevs.com/features/410039/best-electric-car-deal...
- Nextgrid 3y ago
  Is there a reason nobody is taking on this arbitrage opportunity? Such a huge price difference should cover the cost of transporting the physical car and leave still plenty of margin for everyone (including the buyer) to get a good deal.
  - tetromino_ 3y ago
    The arbitraged car would not be certified to comply with US/EU automotive standards, and therefore would be illegal to drive on a public road. You could only drive it on private land or put it up for display in a museum.
    - multjoy 3y ago
      Most EU countries have 'single type approvals' - in the UK that gets you a vehicle with a 'Q' vehicle registration mark. More difficult to sell, harder to insure but in theory an EU spec vehicle sold without the CE paperwork should fly through the inspection.
nf3 3y ago
As an electric car owner for the last 5 years (a Peugeot Ion), price is not my primary concern. What I want is a car with better range (250km+ in the winter), that seats 5, weighs 1100kg max, with no screen, and can tow 500kg. A plus: being able to swap the battery for a reasonable price when it gets too old. It's a shame these cars need to go to the dump at 10 years just because of the battery.
- thebruce87m 3y ago
  Where are you getting the 10 years from?
MichaelRo 3y ago
I have an acquaintance that bought an electric BMW for roughly €80,000. My Dacia has cost me €4500 when it was brand new 14 years ago and I'm still driving it. In my opinion electric cars are too expensive, yeah :)
- deleted 3y ago
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- HDThoreaun 3y ago
  You know you can buy €80,000 ice cars too right? Why would you compare cars that arent competing with each other?
  - MichaelRo 3y ago
    What the fuck does "aren't competing with each other" mean? They are cars. They do the same shit, take you from point A to point B. That's the definition of competing with each other. Also, most of this world isn't made up by overpaid Valley developers but people who care about cost. I'm buying the cheapest, couldn't give a fuck that it's electric if it costs more. And like me there are billions.
    - HDThoreaun 3y ago
      No, €80,000 luxury cars are not doing the same as the economy cars are. Their job is more than just point A to point B. You can get electric cars for much less than that if you dont care about luxury and signaling.
      - readthenotes1 3y ago
        You can get ICE cars for less as well....
        HDThoreaun 3y ago
        Then compare the prices of those cars. Their comment is acting like electric cars are twice as expensive as comparable ice cars and thats just not true.
madduci 3y ago
For less than 30000€ you don't even get a decent car, all you can get is Dacia Spring or a Fiat 500. For family cars you need at least 45/50k, so yes, they are very expensive
perryizgr8 3y ago
Electric cars are simply not as good as their ICE counterparts, at least at the low/mid tier. High end you've got great options. But there seems to be no electric competitor to the Toyota Corolla that is as good or better at the same or lower price.
- ZeroGravitas 3y ago
  Tesla have claimed that the Model 3 has the same TCO as a Corolla after 5 years, so does that count? https://thedriven.io/2023/04/27/tesla-model-3-total-cost-of-ownership-similar-to-toyota-corolla-over-5-years/ https://thedriven.io/2023/04/27/tesla-model-3-total-cost-of-...
johann8384 3y ago
We have a Mach-E but I don't expect to be petrol free for a long time. I worry that the car will be a brick in 5 years. I'm not worried about the 15 F250, 95 F250, the 87 Chevy truck, the 2003 Excursion having that problem. If it lasts 10 years and is a good experience then we might be happy to switch.
- thebruce87m 3y ago
  Why would it be a brick? It looks like it has an 8 year warranty on the battery which is what most people worry about. NMC batteries should last at least 1,000 cycles which equates to 200,000 miles if it gets 200 miles to a charge. LFP batteries should get 2 - 3 times that.
simonblack 3y ago
Get back to me when there is enough infrastructure to support buying an EV as against an ICE car. That means having an electrical grid that can support charging millions of cars every night, having sufficient charging stations that you don't have to queue up to access one, having sufficient charging stations that you can be assured of finding enough of them through rural, regional or desert areas. In other words, everywhere an ICE can go should be where an EV car can go. We are not at that level yet. Oh. And the cost. Still far too high to be economical.
- Tommstein 3y ago
  Yep. I know most driving isn't long-distance in rental cars, but I was traveling a few weeks ago and offered an electric car instead of the hybrid I had reserved, but since I was going to be driving long distances through rural areas, I declined. Not interested in finding where the hell to charge the car, in general or close enough to the airport for it to still have an acceptable amount of charge left when I returned it, when I could just pull into any gas station and quickly refill a non-electric car.
  - jeffrallen 3y ago
    Yeah, I just had the experience of getting a $35 recharge fee when the rental company couldn't be assed to put a high speed charger out front of their return lot. Making me bring back the car at 75% but giving me no way to do that is just lame. The fee should only apply to less than 20% charge. Thanks a lot Thrifty. Not going to rent from you again until you fix your electric car return policies.
    - Tommstein 3y ago
      On the topic of getting dicked around with refueling/recharging charges, several times in the last few months I have returned a car with a full tank to Avis, only for them to still add some bullshit fuel charge that required calling and talking to someone to get it removed each time. No way the fees keep getting added by accident, they're just doing it so they can keep the fees from people who don't notice or care enough about their casual theft. Avoid those thieving assholes too.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

It is not only this. For me it is public greenwashing, that 'modern is always better' fallacy, subsidies (follow the money!), environmental impact of battery components, daily and seasonal inconveniences, even more SW instead of easily repairable mechanical parts, being forced by a vocal minority tru tax, social, and other penalties, etc. etc. Offer me an Hyuandai N74 and we'll talk.

Dalewyn 3y ago
As an aside since we're apparently bringing out the woodworks here, why is it that nearly all electric vehicles look like crap? Seriously, their designs are nearly all terrible compared to gas/diesel cars.
- bombcar 3y ago
  I suspect it was started by the Toyota Pius which was designed to look different so everyone would know how good you were. But Teslas look like cars to me, so I think the era of “it’s electric so it has to look weird” is at its end.
- hightrix 3y ago
  This is one of my biggest complaints. Many EVs look like they are EVs. I want an EV that looks like a car.
  - dieselgate 3y ago
    The e-golf is certainly the most modest EV i've seen around
    - jeffrallen 3y ago
      Renault Zoes look like regular cars too.
- fwungy 3y ago
  They need to incorporate a large, heavy battery that needs to sit at the bottom of the vehicle for stability. That means a large footprint to keep a low roofline, or a high roofline for a smaller footprint. All EVs must work battery and range into their aesthetics, and it's a design imposition. The Tesla Roadster looked good, but it was a based on a Lotus ICE and traded interior space for aesthetics, as well as limited range: too impractical for most. The Prius looks dull because it's tuned for ultimate efficiency while also paying a small roofline/footprint penalty for its battery in aesthetics. It would be interesting to see what a max efficiency ICE Prius would be like. I bet it could do high 30's mpg, maybe even 40, would look better, and be substantially cheaper.
graemep 3y ago
New ICE cars increasingly have the same reliance on software. The lifetime of all cars will be capped by software support - particularly as they become more network connected.

nottorp 3y ago

If fuel costs aren't a large part of your cost of ownership, yes. If you commute from the suburbs, maybe not.

techterrier 3y ago

Just get rid of the damn cars.

speedgoose 3y ago
In city centres for sure. In the country side, the population density makes public transports more challenging. People could walk or bike or ski but that would reduce their life quality. It’s difficult to reduce your life quality unless you are forced. I don’t see country side people giving up their cars.
- kiba 3y ago
  Most people live in urban areas. Even in suburban areas, the bicycle could be a viable form of transportation. My grocery store is literally under ten minutes away by bike, but it is essentially a nightmare to bike to because of a lack of safe cycling infrastructures.
  - mrangle 3y ago
    Bicycling is a viable form of transportation, for short distances and recreation. However, it isn't an option for many if not most needs outside of the house even in suburbia. Not to mention the rural areas / exurbs. A Mom of a couple of kids can't transport her weekly food shop on a bike. Ignoring the inherent danger in getting to the store. I feel like this is a planning conversation for before the era when they decided to make US planning completely car centric and isolating, in a manner that can't be easily nor quickly reversed in a real way.
    - multjoy 3y ago
      >A Mom of a couple of kids can't transport her weekly food shop on a bike They can if said bike is an e-cargo bike.
    - kiba 3y ago
      I am just saying that in my suburban context, a bike could make sense if there's proper bike infrastructure. It would also make sense if there's a plan to reduce the amount of traffic because the road is used for through traffic both way which makes residents in the neighborhoods being forced to wait a long time before they're able to enter the road safely. There's also a gas station much nearer, but it's not very easy to bike there. Walking there can get your shoes very muddy. There are also offices building nearby too, but once again, it's not very easy to get there on foot or bike. This is all within my local suburban context, but it's not easy to do when large stroad make it difficult to cross relatively short distance, or when protected bike lanes and sidewalks are extremely lacking, or when crossing the road is a dangerous activity or when getting to your local gas station might get your shoes muddy and wet.

throwaway22032 3y ago

It's a very specific perspective to assume that the sticker price is relevant. Almost no-one I know owns a new car regardless of their income bracket. 5-10 years old is the norm. Many have cars that are just on the cusp of the emissions regulations (approx 15-20 year old petrol car in London). A car that costs 3K is perfectly serviceable, you can drive across the country with it. I don't think I could find an electric car with even a 200 mile range for less than five times that. Since the Ukraine war electricity has been more expensive than petrol too.

azherebtsov 3y ago
I totally agree with you. When I’m thinking about switching to, say Tesla X, I need to explain myself how that could be cheaper during lifetime (how long is that by the way?)? The sticker tag is 10 times of the money I paid for my used one and on top of that insurance will cost as much as another used one. Only the first year of owning Tesla x will cost as eleven cars like I have now. But that comparison would be more fair if I will compare with used Tesla. Not too many around though.

d1sxeyes 3y ago

Answer: yes. The article concedes that TCO over the lifetime of the vehicle is only just at parity with the middle of the petrol car range, the upfront cost is higher, insurance costs tend to be higher, and on top of that you have “range anxiety” to worry about. There are certainly pros to electric cars, but as yet price is not one.

fnordpiglet 3y ago
The crucial aspect here is “yet.” Most car makers are on their very first foray into EV, but have been perfecting efficiencies in ICE for many decades. The summary judgement articles and whatnot declaring EV dead on arrival ignore that ICE marginal improvements are slow and expensive, while EV marginal improvements are fast and cheap. How long until EV are cheaper and more reliable? I’ll wager in the span of 5 years. Then over the equivalent span of ICE dominance EV will continue to improve to a platform that will make ICE look like horse buggies.
- Ferret7446 3y ago
  As you say, The crucial aspect here is “yet” meaning at the moment, no. In the future, maybe yes, maybe still no. Until and if that day comes, then yes. But right now it's no. Speculation is speculation.
  - fnordpiglet 3y ago
    No, as an EV owner I’m 98% confident ICE is over. The age of fire is ending and the age of maxwells equations is upon us. ICE is fundamentally too complex. The primary issue in EV is battery tech, and that is advancing so rapidly with so much investment that the 5 year roadmap of CATL and others already addresses almost all the issues, and there’s a ton of wildcard battery tech looming with intense interest. There’s nothing on the roadmap on ICE. There is no roadmap, just entrenched interests.
    - d1sxeyes 3y ago
      Right, but we’re not talking about the tech, we’re talking about price. For at least the next 25 years, for a lot of people, the significant up-front cost of buying an EV will push them to keep older ICE vehicles on life support in a Captain Vimes’s boots sort of way.

mg 3y ago

This reminds me of the discussions some years ago whether one should invest in an SSD when buying a new laptop or stay with a spinning disk. Nowadays, barely any new laptops are released without an SSD. When it comes to electric versus petrol, I often think about the fact that the sun sends more energy to earth in an hour than all of mankind uses in a year. I guess that in theory, all that energy could be captured with parts that need no service at all and do not degrade? Of course, we will not practically reach that efficiency. But we will continue to improve towards this limit. When I think of what it takes to dig for oil and all the steps needed to turn that into a moving car, the way we are heading seems clear.

kiba 3y ago
Does that mean mankind has to grow its energy usage 24 times to match the energy absorbed by the Earth?
- eternauta3k 3y ago
  More like 24 * 365 times.
- defrost 3y ago
  Assuming the quoted figures are correct ... it'd be more like 24 x 365 (and a bit) to match the per hour input to per year usage.
- smellf 3y ago
  24 * 365 times
- mg 3y ago
  Thinking about energy usage always puzzles me. I'm not even sure if driving a car from one city to another really uses energy. For example, let's look at it this way: The energy from the sun is heating earth. When we use some of it to drive a solar-powered electric car from one city to another, does that lower the temperature of planet earth? I would think it does not. So why did we get the energy to drive the car for free? I would think that the surprising answer is: Moving something from A to B does not use energy at all. But I'm not sure.

tfrutuoso 3y ago

Yes? Not only that, most of them look terrible and the driving technique has to change dramatically to get any half decent range. It's a lot less engaging to daily an EV.

speedgoose 3y ago
If you accelerate as slow as a median ICE car, the range shouldn’t be too bad. If you find it difficult not to press the accelerator pedal too hard, you can always use eco mode, chill mode, or Toyota mode, whatever it is called. I find daily an EV much nicer as the driving is more silent, more smooth, the car is warmer faster, you don’t need to go to the oil and gas station once a while if you can charge at home or at work. And the torque curve and the response time are so much better than all the car enthousiastes ICE cars in a similar price range.
relativ575 3y ago
Most of them look exactly like the ICE versions of the same maker. Can you give example of EVs that you don't like, and the ICE vehicles that you like?
- Nextgrid 3y ago
  A lot of the entry-level, "city" EVs do indeed look stupid. This is less of a problem as you go up in the range though and indeed high-end EVs look barely any different than their ICE counterparts.
itishappy 3y ago
An EV would be a poor fit for people who drive hundreds of thousands of miles per year. That's an impressive daily commute.

cpursley 3y ago

My concern is safety (car wreaks), distaste for touch interfaces (also safety related) and the environmental (ironic, I know) and social impact of rare earths mining.

MilaM 3y ago
Rare earths are not a major component in car batteries. They are mostly used in the electric motors for the magnets and it's acutally quite easy to replace them. Mining of lithium, copper, nickel, will have to expand in the future. But it's nothing in comparison to the damage that is done with the extraction of oil and gas.
- wazoox 3y ago
  Yes, people afraid of rare earth and lithium mining should get some numbers right first: We extract 4 BILLION TONS of oil from the ground every year. In comparison, we extract a few million tons of lithium (and it's reusable / recyclable), and a few tens of thousand tons of rare earths. The FUD about mining is pure big oil propaganda, frankly.
  - baq 3y ago
    Oil (let’s forget about Canada oil sands for a minute here) is pumped out of the ground. Lithium and copper is strip mined and lithium salts are dried in toxic pools. I’m all for the electric transition because oil will run out but this needs figuring out environmentally.
    - wazoox 3y ago
      Oil is burnt into CO2 that will remain for centuries in the atmosphere, heating it up (and I'm not mentioning countless toxic oil spills, methane leaking, etc). It's less immediately visible and acutely dangerous than toxic pools, but it's really bad.
  - cpursley 3y ago
    Is it just pure FUD? There's some very negative and well documented externalities with lithium mining in particular like child slavery and major environmental pollution. It's not something "big oil" is just making up.

napolux 3y ago

Where I live (Italy) is still a matter of infrastructure. Situation is improving, but I'm not ready to live with the constant fear of not finding a charging station, especially if I need to travel thru the country or in the countryside. I'm not ready yet. I'll be more for plug-in cars in a 5-years span.

poisonborz 3y ago
I was traveling with an EC in countryside Italy 2y ago and had no problems finding public chargers.

raphaelj 3y ago

"Politicians in Europe know they will eventually have to impose taxes on electricity (or else raise income taxes)" I heard that a lot, but are we sure about this? Petrol in Europe is taxed at about 50%, but is almost exclusively imported, thus this is the only income for gouvernements. Electricity, on the other side, is also taxed (about 25% here in Belgium). But's it's almost entirely produced in the Union, which creates additional income and thus taxes. In the end the government income generated by electricity production is most probably around 50% too. Add to that the external costs of petrol cars that electric cars don't have (at least not as much), such as the huge impact of pollution on the healthcare sector, climate change, or the negative import balance caused by the import of fossil fuel... And it might well be that electric vehicles will be a better deal overall tax wise.

whatevaa 3y ago
Petrol taxes include road tax in a lot of places, that will have to be replaced somehow once the share of electric cars becomes big enough.
- ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
  Which countries do that? (Genuinely curious) Here in the UK, there's a lot of drivers who believe that road tax exists (not since 1937) and whilst there's a similar concept with VED (Vehicle Excise Duty), it's not used used specifically for fixing roads - that comes from general taxation. Due to the misinformation, we sometimes get EV drivers complaining about cyclists because "they don't pay road tax", whereas EV owners don't even pay VED as it's based on tailpipe emissions. This means that cyclists (and pedestrians etc) are in effect subsidising the heavy vehicle drivers and helping to pay for the damage that heavy vehicles cause to the roads (roughly proportional to the fourth power of weight of the vehicle).
MilaM 3y ago
I don't think we will increasy taxes for electricity. How do you even to that, when most cars are charged at home. The more likely scenario is that governments will impose higher road use charges. That has been a trend anyway in most of the developed world.

zhrvoj 3y ago

Beside all of that, if you convert let's say 1/10 of cars with internal combustion engines to electric motor cars, there is no electricity to charge them. Which also leads to envirnonmental problems - creating so much electricity (+ CO2 emmision from thermal-electric plants). Just count average low electric car consumption 15kWh/100km.

whatevaa 3y ago
Like internal combustion is any better at this.
- zhrvoj 3y ago
  Of course it isn't. I don't vote for internal combustion technology at all. Both are environmental problem. Looking at all the (ex) hype about electric cars, sometime it looks like electrics - they clean the environment... Internal combustion will stay for a long time in heavy machinery, sea and air transport, which is also problem, if not prevalent, so electric cars will bring negligible health improvement to planet. And add all the wars - our efforts to lower carbon footprint on this planet are so funny and naive.
  - ath3nd 3y ago
    Better do nothing, accept that we are gonna burn, and crank that gas up, right?
PaulKeeble 3y ago
While true if you haven't noticed it Solar and Wind are taking off at a staggering rate for electrical production. At prices around $15 per MWH they are substantially cheaper than gas/coal/oil electrical production. The economics just work out now in a big way and renewables are so much cheaper fossil fuels days are numbered. Besides if you just car about the economics and not the potential reduction on the planet they are still cheaper to run over their lifetime compared to petrol.
- 3y ago

edent 3y ago

In the UK, most people don't pay the "sticker" cost for a car. They take out a PCP or similar plan. Pay £X00 per month for Y months. At the end of the period, either buy the vehicle outright or hand it back. Or, as many people do, switch to a new vehicle. That's why you see so many expensive cars driven by people who can't afford them. No one is paying the up-front cost. They splurge their disposable income on a motor and treat it like a mobile phone - upgrade it every few years. A VW eUP (an electric vehicle) is about £200pcm. The new Mini is about £300pcm. Those are comparable with ICE vehicles.

highwaylights 3y ago
I didn’t realise until recently just how engrained this practice is in people’s behaviour. I was discussing cars with someone not long ago and they were really matter-of-fact about switching to a new car just because the dealership offered it to them. It came across very much as that’s just how it works and everyone does that.
- padjo 3y ago
  I wonder do any of them realise they’re paying the maximum depreciation every single time too. Losing 20k+ in depreciation every year feels like a great way to stay poor
  - edent 3y ago
    On the flip side, using PCP means that you get a brand new car and it has a warrantee. You could buy a banger for £500 - but then you're always going to be wondering if today is the day it'll cost you £££ to repair. And if you can't get in to work, that'll cost you dearly as well. £300 per month to basically not have to worry about any unexpected bills seems reasonable to me. Plus you get the social value of having a "nice" car. The safety features are likely to be higher quality. And, as mentioned in the article, newer vehicles tend to be more efficient. Basically, it is a fairly rational way to spend money.
    - 3y ago

poisonborz 3y ago

Petrol cars were too expensive for decades

mrangle 3y ago
They're still too expensive. They are made "affordable" via financing. That was a banking solution. EVs can be financed. Yet they are still too expensive, over the life of the car. "Expense" also including the inconvenient differences in the manner in which they have to be used. EVs are awaiting an unforseen tech solution to their expense.

MilaM 3y ago

Right now, electric cars are still at a disadvantage because of lower production volumes. It's not only the material cost of the battery and the motor that makes them more expensive, but also the share of the development costs that each sale has to recoup. In the not so distant future I think petrol and diesel cars are going to be at a disadvantage because of this. I still own a quite old (12 years, but low mileage) petrol car, because I don't drive a lot and really only need it for errands in my city. In this scenario it's very hard to justify buying an almost new electric car. The used ones available on the market right now are still not very attractive in my opinion.

anon373839 3y ago
That’s not the only thing. Electric vehicles are generally cheaper-built compared to gasoline cars at the same price point. They have cost- and weight-saving compromises that make them tangibly feel less valuable.
- MilaM 3y ago
  They are cheaper built because of the high share of R&D cost each car has to contribute.
- dangus 3y ago
  I read an article that said that Tesla leads luxury vehicle satisfaction above Lexus (JD Power), that satisfaction was growing as of 2022, young men drive luxury car sales, and that those young men primarily shop based on technology. Surprise surprise, quality of materials per dollar isn’t always what guides buying decisions. If that was the case, brands like Lincoln, Jeep, Dodge, and Maserati would be gone by now. This is probably why Tesla emphasizes speed and performance in its marketing, because it is a spec where EVs are very price competitive. If you’re a young man who wants a fast car (a pretty common desire in that demographic) you’ll have a hard time finding gas cars as cheap as a Model 3 that can get to 60MPH in 3 seconds.

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baq 3y ago
You’re assuming petrol won’t be more expensive. It might be, it might not.
- badpun 3y ago
  Right now, the price of oil is still not set by market prices, but kept artificially high by the OPEC cartel. Petrol could be much cheaper if the oil producing countries wouldn’t optimize the production (and hence, price) for maximum gains.
  - matthewdgreen 3y ago
    It could also be a lot more expensive if we included even a fraction of the extremely dire externalities burning it in a 20% efficient ICE engine produces.

PaulKeeble 3y ago

There is a big shift in prices coming with Sodium Ion batteries. At about 1/4 the price of Li-ion they save substantial money all be it a little less dense. For all but the highest range cars Sodium Ion is going to do the job and BYD is talking about $12000 cars. Not quite a cheap car yet but still given the savings electrical vehicles bring on running costs its a significant step. Its not just volume production the materials in the batteries are driving a lot of the high price. You can get a second hand Zoe for £4-5k but they are quite limited in range. A full range EV for £12k is going to be a big deal.

throwaway5959 3y ago
Sodium Ion energy density isn’t the best, it’ll probably impact grid storage more. For cars that need less than 200 miles of range I agree though.

ghusto 3y ago

When we can buy second hand electric cars _with reliable batteries that aren’t near end of life_ for 2k, we can have a discussion. Arguments of affordability before that point will rely on cherry picking, and I call bullshit on every one of them. I know many people pay way more for cars, even buying ones they can’t afford with loans, but most of the people I know aren’t in that group.

drivingmenuts 3y ago
I agree. Until there’s a cheap electric option, the bulk of drivers won’t switch. Their car is paid for, or mostly so, it works and. With some payout, can be kept running indefinitely. It’s easy to convince rich people to buy into EVs, but try getting the people who can’t afford to blow a huge chunk of money on something that has less range, less perceived power and can’t be fixed by a cousin under a tree.
- throwaway5959 3y ago
  The average new car price in the US is around $47k, well above the Bolt, Kona and Leaf.
mint2 3y ago
are you saying that cost shouldn’t be a critique until the market as matured? Because of course a new product still being rolled out doesn’t have a good second hand market. It’s not reasonable to expect that.
Kirby64 3y ago
What ICE car can you buy that fits that criteria for 2k? Anything that’s only 2k for a car these days has north of 100k miles and likely is in pretty rough shape.
- ghusto 3y ago
  Never bought a car for more than 2k, and never had any problems. They’re indeed usually over 100k miles, but definitely not in rough shape. In fact, my first car was under a grand, and it was built like a tank. I was not kind to that thing, and the only thing that killed it in the end was a head on collision (everyone was okay, lady got some expensive driving lesson that day). I go for older cars because they tend to actually be more reliable, and the plus side is they’re cheaper. I’m presuming “ICE” means internal combustion engine?

Bissness 3y ago

Electric cars do not make sense to own if you are not also owning a garage where you can charge them overnight. Also, if you are unwilling to add 1+ hour(s) to your travel time on longer distances.

11235813213455 3y ago
and if your average distance is below 20km (and if it is they should consider moving)
bryanlarsen 3y ago
I did a 3000km trip 4 times (twice each way) during the pandemic. Charging added 15 minutes to the trip. Everybody has to eat/sleep/bathroom, and that can happen at the same time as charging.
- TheLoafOfBread 3y ago
  I did trip from London, UK to Southern Italy, Brindisi in Enyaq. By Google maps it should take 2 days (24 hours of driving, so 12 hours in 2 drivers/day). Charging dragged it on 4 days and we were charging on Ionity/Enel. So your 15 minutes is some kind of a sick joke.
  - bryanlarsen 3y ago
    That's ridiculous. My trip was from Ottawa Canada to Saskatoon. It goes through some seriously unpopulated territory, unlike yours. It does follow major highways, so there are Tesla superchargers along the route every 100-150 km or so. We'd stay at a hotel with charging overnight so start at 100%, drive for 2.5 hours and then bathroom/charge for 15-20 mins, drive another 2.5 and eat/charge for 40 or so, repeat the morning pattern in the afternoon, and then drive for another couple after supper before stopping at a hotel to charge while sleeping.
    - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
      Canada has some good charging infrastructure. If you are driving a Tesla, even better, super chargers are the gold standard for EV charging, everything else is kind of unreliable.

bravetraveler 3y ago

Most of the buyers I'm aware of are in the used market - fortunately, they mention this briefly I'm curious how that market develops. I'm pessimistic about "Car 2.0" for a couple reasons First, a chance to redefine the idea of what owning a car is. For example, subscriptions to use induction heaters that you already pay to power. Second, the battery. They're consumable and a considerable size of the value. I'm not sure their market would remain I've driven too many four cylinders that I legitimately have a complex over how my car sounds. I'm driving my V8 until I can't anymore

faeranne 3y ago

Two years ago I spend nearly a month hunting for a decent electric vehicle. I had plenty of funds, and could theoretically afford a lower-end tesla. I was, at the time, driving a 2002 Honda Civic Hybrid, because to me, going electric makes sense. I was aware of the range limitations, and even had an agreement with my landlord to get a 220v outlet installed in the garage. I ultimately abandoned my endeavor because none of the vehicles provided 2 key things older cars continue to provide: Ownership, and Privacy. And key to this is that this isn't just electric cars, it's pretty much all modern cars. My Civic had a replaceable stereo headunit. How many modern cars have the infotainment system so embedded that functions of the cars depend on it? And we know car manufactures take advantage of that. Hell, even judges seem ok with them doing that [1]. Then you have the fact that repairing anything in the car is made not only intentinally obtuse, but illegal is some states. As it stands right now in oklahoma, you can do any work you want on your gas vehicle, but move to electric and you better have a $5,000 yearly certificate to touch that. Simply opening the hood can land you in jail. And we know the car manufacturers can tattle on you [2]. Then there's the fact that these cars are more than capable of moving themselves. And that system is tied to a remote service. Absolutly nothing stops a manufacturer from deciding that your car's "drive train control system" is no longer licensed, and simply shut it down. Permanently. If companies are willing and able to steal your media [3], the next step is easily to just brick your appliances. Hell, microwaves are already doing that [4]. Trains do that if you decide a third party repair station is reasonable [5]. Where does this end? Point being, till I can truly own my vehicle again, I'm sticking with older cars. I would much rather own an electric vehicle, but so far none of them are even remotely close to being something I can actually own. Price has nothing to do with it. [1] https://www.malwarebytes.com/blog/news/2023/11/judge-rules-its-fine-for-car-makers-to-intercept-your-text-messages https://www.malwarebytes.com/blog/news/2023/11/judge-rules-i... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/apr/07/tesla-intimate-car-camera-images-shared https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/apr/07/tesla-int... [3] https://www.forbes.com/sites/paultassi/2023/12/02/playstation-is-deleting-tv-shows-players-paid-for-thanks-to-warner-bros/?sh=38c88e8633d5 https://www.forbes.com/sites/paultassi/2023/12/02/playstatio... [4] https://hackaday.com/2022/03/18/welcome-to-the-future-where-your-microwave-thinks-its-a-steam-oven/ https://hackaday.com/2022/03/18/welcome-to-the-future-where-... [5] https://hackaday.com/2023/12/06/the-deere-disease-spreads-to-trains/ https://hackaday.com/2023/12/06/the-deere-disease-spreads-to...

entropyie 3y ago

No, people switching in droves in Ireland. Also, you don't need a garage, just a small driveway. Throw in a few solar panels and you have a low tax, low tco car or second car.

petre 3y ago

Yes. Too expensive, range anxiety and also having a garage is a plus. China dumping EVs on the EU market will fix the first part. But it will also screw up the complacent EU auto industry.

onetokeoverthe 3y ago

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thelastgallon 3y ago

Expensive only in EU and US. In China, VW has to sell cars for 16K, which are sold in EU/US for 35K - 45K. Legacy carmakers don't know how to make electric cars, rely on regulatory capture to keep prices high. VW cut prices of ID.3 down to $16,500 in China, while in Europe the same vehicle starts at nearly $43,000: https://www.arenaev.com/volkswagen_cuts_id3_price_in_china__now_starts_from_16500-news-2075.php https://www.arenaev.com/volkswagen_cuts_id3_price_in_china__... China reveals just how bad things are for Toyota, GM and VW: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WBV9FQvuss https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WBV9FQvuss In US, there are good deals to be found. I have a Nissan Leaf on a 2 year lease at $99/month. In the past decade, there were so many who took advantage of $69 - $89/month lease + additional cash back from state/utility/air quality rebates. Folks could buy them from 6K - 10K at the end of the lease. These deals may not be around anymore, but there are leases always available under 300. I see 2023 Hyundai Ioniq 6 for $229 and several others under $300: https://insideevs.com/features/410039/best-electric-car-deals-this-month/ https://insideevs.com/features/410039/best-electric-car-deal...

Nextgrid 3y ago
Is there a reason nobody is taking on this arbitrage opportunity? Such a huge price difference should cover the cost of transporting the physical car and leave still plenty of margin for everyone (including the buyer) to get a good deal.
- tetromino_ 3y ago
  The arbitraged car would not be certified to comply with US/EU automotive standards, and therefore would be illegal to drive on a public road. You could only drive it on private land or put it up for display in a museum.
  - multjoy 3y ago
    Most EU countries have 'single type approvals' - in the UK that gets you a vehicle with a 'Q' vehicle registration mark. More difficult to sell, harder to insure but in theory an EU spec vehicle sold without the CE paperwork should fly through the inspection.

nf3 3y ago

As an electric car owner for the last 5 years (a Peugeot Ion), price is not my primary concern. What I want is a car with better range (250km+ in the winter), that seats 5, weighs 1100kg max, with no screen, and can tow 500kg. A plus: being able to swap the battery for a reasonable price when it gets too old. It's a shame these cars need to go to the dump at 10 years just because of the battery.

thebruce87m 3y ago
Where are you getting the 10 years from?

MichaelRo 3y ago

I have an acquaintance that bought an electric BMW for roughly €80,000. My Dacia has cost me €4500 when it was brand new 14 years ago and I'm still driving it. In my opinion electric cars are too expensive, yeah :)

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HDThoreaun 3y ago
You know you can buy €80,000 ice cars too right? Why would you compare cars that arent competing with each other?
- MichaelRo 3y ago
  What the fuck does "aren't competing with each other" mean? They are cars. They do the same shit, take you from point A to point B. That's the definition of competing with each other. Also, most of this world isn't made up by overpaid Valley developers but people who care about cost. I'm buying the cheapest, couldn't give a fuck that it's electric if it costs more. And like me there are billions.
  - HDThoreaun 3y ago
    No, €80,000 luxury cars are not doing the same as the economy cars are. Their job is more than just point A to point B. You can get electric cars for much less than that if you dont care about luxury and signaling.
    - readthenotes1 3y ago
      You can get ICE cars for less as well....
      - HDThoreaun 3y ago
        Then compare the prices of those cars. Their comment is acting like electric cars are twice as expensive as comparable ice cars and thats just not true.

madduci 3y ago

For less than 30000€ you don't even get a decent car, all you can get is Dacia Spring or a Fiat 500. For family cars you need at least 45/50k, so yes, they are very expensive

perryizgr8 3y ago

Electric cars are simply not as good as their ICE counterparts, at least at the low/mid tier. High end you've got great options. But there seems to be no electric competitor to the Toyota Corolla that is as good or better at the same or lower price.

ZeroGravitas 3y ago
Tesla have claimed that the Model 3 has the same TCO as a Corolla after 5 years, so does that count? https://thedriven.io/2023/04/27/tesla-model-3-total-cost-of-ownership-similar-to-toyota-corolla-over-5-years/ https://thedriven.io/2023/04/27/tesla-model-3-total-cost-of-...

johann8384 3y ago

We have a Mach-E but I don't expect to be petrol free for a long time. I worry that the car will be a brick in 5 years. I'm not worried about the 15 F250, 95 F250, the 87 Chevy truck, the 2003 Excursion having that problem. If it lasts 10 years and is a good experience then we might be happy to switch.

thebruce87m 3y ago
Why would it be a brick? It looks like it has an 8 year warranty on the battery which is what most people worry about. NMC batteries should last at least 1,000 cycles which equates to 200,000 miles if it gets 200 miles to a charge. LFP batteries should get 2 - 3 times that.

simonblack 3y ago

Get back to me when there is enough infrastructure to support buying an EV as against an ICE car. That means having an electrical grid that can support charging millions of cars every night, having sufficient charging stations that you don't have to queue up to access one, having sufficient charging stations that you can be assured of finding enough of them through rural, regional or desert areas. In other words, everywhere an ICE can go should be where an EV car can go. We are not at that level yet. Oh. And the cost. Still far too high to be economical.

Tommstein 3y ago
Yep. I know most driving isn't long-distance in rental cars, but I was traveling a few weeks ago and offered an electric car instead of the hybrid I had reserved, but since I was going to be driving long distances through rural areas, I declined. Not interested in finding where the hell to charge the car, in general or close enough to the airport for it to still have an acceptable amount of charge left when I returned it, when I could just pull into any gas station and quickly refill a non-electric car.
- jeffrallen 3y ago
  Yeah, I just had the experience of getting a $35 recharge fee when the rental company couldn't be assed to put a high speed charger out front of their return lot. Making me bring back the car at 75% but giving me no way to do that is just lame. The fee should only apply to less than 20% charge. Thanks a lot Thrifty. Not going to rent from you again until you fix your electric car return policies.
  - Tommstein 3y ago
    On the topic of getting dicked around with refueling/recharging charges, several times in the last few months I have returned a car with a full tank to Avis, only for them to still add some bullshit fuel charge that required calling and talking to someone to get it removed each time. No way the fees keep getting added by accident, they're just doing it so they can keep the fees from people who don't notice or care enough about their casual theft. Avoid those thieving assholes too.

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