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Did anyone else find the note regarding North Korean fertility extremely surprising? I guess I have no idea what daily life is like in NK - but I was under the

Did anyone else find the note regarding North Korean fertility extremely surprising? I guess I have no idea what daily life is like in NK - but I was under the impression under-educated women often had more children (not supporting this, just stating what I though was commonly understood). Does NK have a better education system for women and better internet access than I thought?

mytailorisrich 3y ago
North Korea is relatively poor but that does not mean they are a "third world country". School is compulsory and everyone attends school, and I expect good equality of schooling between genders (one good thing with socialist regimes).
- orwin 3y ago
  And it has a strong (but relatively poor) middle class.
- prng2021 3y ago
  Please stop spreading this kind of information around the internet as if it’s anywhere remotely close to an ok place to live. I’ve actually stayed overnight there. I saw tons of what I initially thought were elementary or middle school kids but found out they were all tremendously malnourished high schoolers. When I tried passing out food and candy to one of them, another one yelled at him for acting like a beggar. All lights, even at my hotel, were shut off shortly after sunset. Paper was in huge shortage so when I asked for additional napkins at dinner, I got 1 single-ply square. It was a super depressing experience. Pyongyang is better but North Korea isn’t just that 1 city. I was exploring other areas in the northwest.
  - matrix87 3y ago
    They allow you outside of Pyongyang? How did you manage to do that, were you under some kind of govt supervision?
  - mitthrowaway2 3y ago
    It doesn't sound like you observed gender disparity in education... Did you? If so, you should say so, because that's what the GP was commenting on. Do you have other thoughts regarding their fertility rate?
    - prng2021 3y ago
      “Stereotyped gender roles begin in childhood. Girls learn they are not equal to boys and cannot resist mistreatment and abuse, and that they should feel shame if they become targets of abuse by men, whether in the home or in public spaces” https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/12/21/submission-rights-women-and-girls-north-korea-special-rapporteurs-report-52nd-human https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/12/21/submission-rights-women-... My own time there was limited but I watched music and dance performances comprised almost entirely of young girls. In contrast, I saw tons of people in military uniform or in training, clearly of widely varying ages, but 100% male. If “gender disparity in education” is as shallow as, do girls and boys both learn algebra, then the answer is probably no. But I observed what looked like complete brainwashing of expected gender roles and your future contribution to society, starting at a very young age. Regarding fertility rate there, I never trust any specific numbers they publish like the 1.8 mentioned. Literally 1 person there has control over what stats the rest of the world sees, balancing his imagination/vision with what the rest of the world will actually believe.
      - mitthrowaway2 3y ago
        Thanks, that's a much more substantive response!
  - mytailorisrich 3y ago
    Who said it was an OK place to live? Is anything I wrote incorrect? (If it is please correct me) I am just pointing out that there is an established and comprehensive education system that includes women.
    - prng2021 3y ago
      You wrote “equality of schooling between genders”. I wrote a separate reply under your thread explaining it’s far from equal.
      - mytailorisrich 3y ago
        No you posted an anecdote that is tangential at best... Boys and girls learn to read, write, count, etc in the same way. The original poster expected girls/women to be uneducated/under-educated. This is an aspect that may hold true in countries like Afghanistan or some Africa countries but not in North Korea, which has a totally different culture and level of development.
BoxFour 3y ago
I think it’s the opposite, NK food security is so dire that people don’t want to have children because it’s more mouths to feed.
- eatonphil 3y ago
  North Korea has a higher fertility rate (1.82) than Cuba (1.50) though for what it's worth. It's close to Vietnam (1.96).
  - BoxFour 3y ago
    The economic situation of NK is far different than those two countries, and in NK’s situation you would often expect to see fertility rates above replacement.

mytailorisrich 3y ago

North Korea is relatively poor but that does not mean they are a "third world country". School is compulsory and everyone attends school, and I expect good equality of schooling between genders (one good thing with socialist regimes).

orwin 3y ago
And it has a strong (but relatively poor) middle class.
prng2021 3y ago
Please stop spreading this kind of information around the internet as if it’s anywhere remotely close to an ok place to live. I’ve actually stayed overnight there. I saw tons of what I initially thought were elementary or middle school kids but found out they were all tremendously malnourished high schoolers. When I tried passing out food and candy to one of them, another one yelled at him for acting like a beggar. All lights, even at my hotel, were shut off shortly after sunset. Paper was in huge shortage so when I asked for additional napkins at dinner, I got 1 single-ply square. It was a super depressing experience. Pyongyang is better but North Korea isn’t just that 1 city. I was exploring other areas in the northwest.
- matrix87 3y ago
  They allow you outside of Pyongyang? How did you manage to do that, were you under some kind of govt supervision?
- mitthrowaway2 3y ago
  It doesn't sound like you observed gender disparity in education... Did you? If so, you should say so, because that's what the GP was commenting on. Do you have other thoughts regarding their fertility rate?
  - prng2021 3y ago
    “Stereotyped gender roles begin in childhood. Girls learn they are not equal to boys and cannot resist mistreatment and abuse, and that they should feel shame if they become targets of abuse by men, whether in the home or in public spaces” https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/12/21/submission-rights-women-and-girls-north-korea-special-rapporteurs-report-52nd-human https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/12/21/submission-rights-women-... My own time there was limited but I watched music and dance performances comprised almost entirely of young girls. In contrast, I saw tons of people in military uniform or in training, clearly of widely varying ages, but 100% male. If “gender disparity in education” is as shallow as, do girls and boys both learn algebra, then the answer is probably no. But I observed what looked like complete brainwashing of expected gender roles and your future contribution to society, starting at a very young age. Regarding fertility rate there, I never trust any specific numbers they publish like the 1.8 mentioned. Literally 1 person there has control over what stats the rest of the world sees, balancing his imagination/vision with what the rest of the world will actually believe.
    - mitthrowaway2 3y ago
      Thanks, that's a much more substantive response!
- mytailorisrich 3y ago
  Who said it was an OK place to live? Is anything I wrote incorrect? (If it is please correct me) I am just pointing out that there is an established and comprehensive education system that includes women.
  - prng2021 3y ago
    You wrote “equality of schooling between genders”. I wrote a separate reply under your thread explaining it’s far from equal.
    - mytailorisrich 3y ago
      No you posted an anecdote that is tangential at best... Boys and girls learn to read, write, count, etc in the same way. The original poster expected girls/women to be uneducated/under-educated. This is an aspect that may hold true in countries like Afghanistan or some Africa countries but not in North Korea, which has a totally different culture and level of development.

BoxFour 3y ago

I think it’s the opposite, NK food security is so dire that people don’t want to have children because it’s more mouths to feed.

eatonphil 3y ago
North Korea has a higher fertility rate (1.82) than Cuba (1.50) though for what it's worth. It's close to Vietnam (1.96).
- BoxFour 3y ago
  The economic situation of NK is far different than those two countries, and in NK’s situation you would often expect to see fertility rates above replacement.