9 ms·

It's very much worth reading the full reasoning within the SafeWork decision (page 56): https://www.safeworkaustralia.gov.au/sites/default/files/2023-10/decisi

• hereme888 3y ago
  Would you think that imposing heavy fines, and perhaps even criminal penalties when workers are not properly informed, would be a better alternative to banning an economically advantageous product?
  • lll-o-lll 3y ago
    Also, bring back Asbestos, properly handled it is perfectly safe. Radium also gets a bad rap from the “think of the children” brigade. And don’t get me started on leaded fuel! What an overreach from the government on that one! How dare these union thugs get in the way of clear economic progression that provides far more benefit than harm!
  • mitemte 3y ago
    This is probably going to cause the price of large format porcelain bench tops down. They have less silica content than artificial stone and granite. I believe they are also cut to size off-site.
    • kortilla 3y ago
      You mean up, right? Forcing demand into a product drives the price up.
      • account42 3y ago
        Only short-term unless the supply is static.
        • kortilla 3y ago
          That’s not at all how economics works. Unless a technology breakthrough comes in that reduces cost at scale, increased demand increases price. The only exception is if producers are already selling at essentially the marginal cost of production for the whole industry. This scenario is extremely rare, especially in base materials.
          • ceejayoz 3y ago
            Economies of scale can happen just fine without technological breakthroughs.
            • kortilla 3y ago
              They didn’t happen before engineered stone, why?
  • rtpg 3y ago
    Not to be too glib but I think here the reasoning is that letting market forces duke it out (even with fines and penalties) is considered to not be fast enough compared to the number of people whose health is being put at risk. Like here there are a bunch of people who have lung cancer now. And there's probably a bunch more who will get it from doing all the work up until now. And this has been in the news for a while I think. I imagine that despite all of this, there's still stuff coming up. The first case was reported back in 2015. 8 years is a pretty long time to think "hey, maybe we should do stuff so our workers won't get lung cancer". The fact that that is not incentive enough is probably a signal that there's not really much left to do, honestly.
    • kortilla 3y ago
      Criminal liability is not “let the market forces duke it out” in any meaningful sense.
      • rtpg 3y ago
        Yeah I agree that it’s way more powerful than civil infractions or the like. I meant more that the feedback loop is quite slow
      • junaru 3y ago
        Your comments puts cheaper kitchen tables above potential lifelong worker health issues. No amount of 'criminal liability' will bring back loved ones.
        • rbanffy 3y ago
          Nothing will bring those people back. If that’s the only goal, then banning is also frivolous. It’s also unclear whether there is a similar safe alternative, so banning one type of product might just shift the problem to a new toxic and dangerous material. The only solution is to enforce safety regulations and/or come up with better ones. At one time, when I decided I’d sand a wall in my house, I ended up attaching a vacuum cleaner to my sander so that the dust wouldn’t go everywhere. Wearing the filter mask was also extremely uncomfortable, so it might be worth to design better breathing PPEs that are more human-friendly to drive acceptance up.
  • 2muchcoffeeman 3y ago
    Not informed? You think that trades people were not properly informed to wear PPE at all times? I’m have a3D printer as a hobby and I wear all the PPE when sanding or spray painting. These people know perfectly well they need to take precautions.
    • deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  • sjy 3y ago
    This is addressed in the linked source, although that wouldn’t be obvious if you’re not familiar with Australian work health and safety law: > the re-emergence of silicosis in engineered stone workers is also due to a failure of compliance with existing WHS laws … PCBUs [persons conducting a business or undertaking, who are subject to WHS laws] have not done all that is reasonably practicable to eliminate or minimise those risks, and workers have not taken reasonable care for their own health and safety and that of others [which is a criminal offence]. Finally, there has been insufficient compliance and enforcement actions by WHS regulators to drive behaviour change in the sector … A lower silica content engineered stone is not expected to result in improvements in compliance. The features of the sector that have contributed to the current levels of non-compliance remain – the sector is comprised of mostly small businesses with few barriers to entry and a lower understanding of WHS obligations.
    • defrost 3y ago
      The "ban" (proposed for July 2024 and after) is actually conditional upon the building industry getting their act together with respect to worker safety and compliance: National Dust Disease Taskforce Final Report - June 2021 https://www.health.gov.au/resources/publications/national-dust-disease-taskforce-final-report?language=en https://www.health.gov.au/resources/publications/national-du... [PDF] https://www.health.gov.au/sites/default/files/documents/2022/07/national-dust-disease-taskforce-final-report.pdf https://www.health.gov.au/sites/default/files/documents/2022... Page 11: (Recomendations ...) D) Commence the processes required to implement a full ban on the importation of some or all engineered stone products if, by July 2024: – There is no measurable and acceptable improvement in regulatory compliance rates for the engineered stone sector as reported by jurisdictions; and - Evidence indicates preventative measures are not effectively protecting those working with engineered stone from silicosis and silica-associated diseases In short - (We recommend to) Ban this stuff UNLESS building sector improves safety AND demonstrates effective change.
      • Hawxy 3y ago
        > is actually conditional upon the building industry getting their act together I don't think this is correct. The SafeWork report (recommending a complete ban) superseded this health report, and the ministers appear to have aligned on the SafeWork recommendation.
  • rgmerk 3y ago
    This doesn’t take into account the realities of people in that industry. It’s highly fragmented, dominated by men and specifically younger men, who self-select for a high tolerance of risk and a low tolerance of rules. By the time they find out that they’re not invulnerable and rules exist to protect them, it’s too late.
  • DoItToMe81 3y ago
    People are dying slow, painful and horrific deaths because fines have not worked to dissuade these companies. Bans are the only option left.
  • rvba 3y ago
    A lot of manual workers ignore protective equipment even after training and while constantly supervised
• Modified3019 3y ago
  Makes sense, this kind of work can have an extremely “toxic” anti-ppe culture that’s impossible to mitigate against without outright burning the industry to the ground. Fines and inspections are easy to dodge when everyone involved is trying to do so. Hell I work in agronomy and it’s hard enough getting seasonal helpers to wear earplugs when riding ATVs all day. Then there was an old supervisor from a former oil change and tire repair shop job I had, who had hand shakes from nerve damage due to automotive chemical exposure, and he was actually comparatively decent about PPE, especially for helpers.
  • 10u152 3y ago
    I work in the construction industry. We have about 1:10 ratio of “supervision” to contractors. Getting people to wear PPE is a constant, ongoing 12 hour a day battle. We kick about 1 person off site permanently, every day for something egregiously dumb. The contractor just sends them to another job. And of all the places I’ve worked, my current employer is one of the best, takes it very seriously.
    • ProllyInfamous 3y ago
      Early in my IBEW (union electrician) training, a particularly outspoken oldguy asked me, mockingly "are those tampons in your ears?!" My response was "No, Carl — they're sound dampeners SO I DON'T HAVE TO LISTEN TO YOUR CONSTANT BITCHING SO MUCH." Old journeyman immediately took me under his wing, and we were inseparable (he even would wear PPE around me). I learned much from this "kind" old curmudgeon. Why the machismo exists in construction, I'll never know — just as many former co-workers will never understand how I was one of them, once.
      • pasabagi 3y ago
        Bad safety standards create strong unions. Strong unions create good safety standards. Good safety standards allow stupidity. Stupid people allow safety standards to get rolled back.
    • amanda99 3y ago
• HlessClaudesman 3y ago
  To protect the workers we must fire them.
  • account42 3y ago
    It's not like whatever the demand that the engineered stone currently fills suddenly disappears so those workers will be able to find other similar jobs.
    • Ekaros 3y ago
      My guess would be that number of kitchens that do not get build because engineered stone is not anymore available will be very low... Or anything else. There is enough options around and enough supply for that.
    • rvba 3y ago
      The toxic (but cheaper) stuff will be manufactured offshore
      • rgmerk 3y ago
        The existing toxic stuff was made offshore. It’s not the manufacturing that’s the issue, it’s the cutting to size. You can’t do that offshore. Indeed, in some circumstances cuts are made on the building site.
      • Tangurena2 3y ago
        From the article: > The federal government will also impose a ban on imported engineered stone to provide an "additional layer of enforcement and deterrence at the border", however the date has not been finalised yet.
  • ceddiexd 3y ago
    Several construction workers' unions campaigned to get this ban in place. The only party in opposition were the engineered stone vendors.
  • 3y ago
• gnfargbl 3y ago
  The logic here is that if an industry can only be made safe with strict PPE standards, but the market dynamics make it difficult to ensure compliance with those standards, then it is OK to ban the industry. That seems a pretty concerning stance for small businesses. What's next? Ban microbreweries because they don't properly manage the risks of CO2 asphyxiation? Ban small-shop mechanics because they routinely get brake fluid on their hands? Well-enforced safety regulations are a good thing for everyone. Banning small businesses because regulating them is hard seems... economically undesirable.
  • 10u152 3y ago
    They’re not banning businesses. They’re banning a product which is causing deaths. Switch to a alternate product. It’s the same in your analogy of banning a toxic brake fluid.
    • cm2187 3y ago
      It’s like banning chemical products because they are causing death if not handled properly. We would not have an industrialised world if we went that way.
      • medo-bear 3y ago
        We would also have a much sicker world if we didnt ban things. For better or for worse (often for worse in my opinion) Australia is king of banning things and treating its citizens as children. However when it comes to workplace safety I tend to be in favour because workers often get pressured into unsafe behaviour by time or by bosses.
      • vmurthy 3y ago
        On the contrary - don’t you think the message this sends will make things better re other chemical products? Either the manufacturers themselves will find better versions of dangerous chemicals or the users will wake up.
      • Ekaros 3y ago
• pyb 3y ago
  Some stay this is also the case in the United States.
• hankman86 3y ago
  Australian here. We recently had a kitchen bench top made from engineered stone installed. I was previously entirely oblivious to the risks involved. Suffice it to say that we would have chosen a different material had I known the health burden of inhaling the dust during preparation/cutting. The contractor who installed the bench top for us was however very diligent in alerting us to what safety measures we should follow should any on-site cutting be required at our place. Which it wasn’t in the end. So at least he was aware that the sawdust is a major health hazard. But that’s one contractor, which does not represent an entire industry. Engineered stone is fashionable and I imagine there are many black sheep out there doing it for cheap with under-trained or unsupervised personnel.
• direwolf20 3y ago
  > Your request has been blocked.