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Tesla Recalls 2M Cars to Fix Autopilot Safety Flaws
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- not_your_vase 3y agoWe should either stop calling these recalls, or news sites should announce iOS and Android updates in a similar manner also > Apple is recalling 45 Brazilion iPhones and iPads to fix software flaw
- spacecadet 3y agoZinger! Not the same.
- izacus 3y agoNah mate, fixing your cat photos app is not the same thing as fixing software that killed people.
- 4ad 3y agoFrom a user experience perspective it is exactly the same. The user doesn't have to send their hardware away.
- izacus 3y agoIt actually isn't - hence the "filing". Tesla needs to notify people to update their software, even those that don't have wifi or 4G available for updates for whatever reason.
- guil177 3y agoPhones hold sensitive datas, banking stuffs. I never heard about recall when a security flaw is fixed on a phone by a software update.
- brightball 3y agoDid it kill people?
- isodev 3y agoYup
- windexh8er 3y agoFrom this article [0] in October of 2023"...Autopilot have been involved in more than 700 crashes, at least 19 of them fatal, since its introduction in 2014..." [0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/interactive/2023/tesla-autopilot-crash-analysis/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/interactive/2023/t...
- mavhc 3y agoInvolvement doesn't mean caused. Also how many lives has it saved?
- mensetmanusman 3y agoWith everyone on their phones now while driving, I wonder if cat photos have killed more.
- keep_reading 3y agoPretty sure Instagram thots and memes have killed more than Teslas. I'd bet a lot of money on that.
- izacus 3y agoFortunately, cats usually aren't given control over a steering wheel :) Tesla software is.
- Robotbeat 3y agoSince autopilot is used on a substantial fraction (one third?) of miles driven by Teslas, this is another way of saying that Teslas are not yet invincible to crashes.
- mackman 3y agoIf the FCC mandated Apple deploy an update to reduce phones catching fire then yes, I would use the term recall. For bugs that don’t fall into the safety or regulatory compliance category I would not.
- gwd 3y agoBut "recall" means "calling back"; normally it means having to actually send a physical replacement. Consider three possible problems with autopilot: 1. There's a structural issue that affects camera systems which can't be fixed in a shop; for instance, something which may cause the camera to come loose which results in blind spots, that's due to the structural issue of the car itself. Tesla has to replace 2 million customer's actual cars, destroying the old ones (or perhaps selling them as "refurb but no autopilot"). 2. There's an issue that affects camera systems which can be fixed in a shop; Tesla has to pay for repairs for 2 million cars. 3. There's an issue which affects Autopilot which can be fixed in software. They push an over-the-air update automatically and everyone is fine. These each have very different properties in terms of costs to Tesla and hassle for owners; so it makes sense that there be a different word for them. "Recall" literally means "call back"; I'd argue for only using it in the case of #1.
- Notatheist 3y ago>But "recall" means "calling back"; Writing means to carve but you wrote this post without a metal stick and a hammer. >hassle for owners "Recall" is used to signify the severity of the flaw not the inconvenience fixing it caused owners. I feel "software update" doesn't do it justice at all and "recall" is appropriate.
- brookst 3y agoJust like “bit” is a term of art in computer science that means something different than “bit” in vernacular language, “recall” has a specific meaning in the automotive industry. A recall is a mandatory fix that the manufacturer is obligated to provide at no charge and to proactively notify customers of. It comes with reporting obligations and long term warranty implications. It might be that industries should not reuse common words, but IMO it’s a little silly to insist that they only use the most literal and etymologically correct terms for each individual action rather than defining categories that have clear meanings even if a specific action doesn’t perfectly match the most literal reading of the name of the category.
- mrtksn 3y agoI actually like the idea, it should be called recall when it's about fixing a bug affecting the function or security of the device. I know a lot of people who don't update their phones because they believe it's getting slower and their battery degrades faster. In some cases, they might be right because when new futures are added the device can indeed become slower. It would be nice if we can get fixes and security updates, without adding any new functionality so we can preserve the original workload of the device. I would love to have my iPhone 4s running iOS 6, just secured enough, so I can use it the way it was when I purchased it(I wouldn't care much if Apple services don't work anymore). Sure, Apple does security only updates for old phones but I actually would like to have the option to do this on the current phones too.
- obtino 3y agoTesla shouldn't call their driver assist system "Autopilot" either, but here we are.
- Closi 3y agoBy the same logic you could say that airplanes shouldn't call their pilot assist system "Autopilot" either, because it requires monitoring and input from pilots who will need to disengage the system and intervene/fly manually in certain scenarios. Autopilot is probably actually quite a good term for it if you actually compare it to a plane Autopilot - you don't expect pilots to be inattentive or away from the controls, and you expect them to intervene in certain scenarios and disengage autopilot if there is danger.
- xorcist 3y agoAirplane autopilots are something else. You are not allowed to use an autopilot unless you have training and a license for it.
- sshine 3y agoYes, I think if we want to be clear about whether you can legally fall asleep, or not be present at all, while driving, we need to be more explicit about the FSD level.
- fundatus 3y agoNot comparable at all. Airplanes are flown by trained professionals who know exactly what Autopilot can and cannot do. Regular consumers don't know these differences though and Tesla deliberately uses this ambiguity to deceive their own customers, who expect a "fully self driving" car.
- mensetmanusman 3y agoAs, but both sets are trained to different levels on a sliding scale. Shades of grey make language complicated.
- 3y ago
- throw310822 3y agoIf FSD worked as advertised, they could "recall" the cars by issuing a command from the factory, and thousands of cars would turn on by themselves, find their way out of the family garage, and drive away in the night! To the nearest shop or, if a sufficient level of AI was reached, to freedom, never to be seen again.
- henriquez 3y agoI’d pay $15k for that
- B1FF_PSUVM 3y agoIt's all fun and games until the herd of feral Teslas, on their way to the rumored great powerwall by the solar farm, shows up to feed on your power meter.
- jacquesm 3y agoThe term recall is a term commonly used in the industry to denote a safety related situation that needs mandatory and free remedy. It is not used in the context of your average update that might give you new eye candy or features, it is just for safety related issues and usually at the behest of a regulator (though a manufacturer can decide to do a voluntary recall to avoid the regulators stepping in).
- mensetmanusman 3y agoSimply call them software recalls.
- tptacek 3y agoThis is simply what it's called when car companies do these kinds of fixes. Nobody is singling Tesla out here.
- palemoonale 3y agoA recall has a specific, legal / liability definition, regardless how it is logistically being adressed. Hint: Not everything is SV-like "we'll fix it in production"...
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- jjav 3y ago> We should either stop calling these recalls "Recall" has a regulatory definition, so this is that.
- kbos87 3y agoThe details are scant, but it sounds like the vehicle is going to be quicker to disable autopilot if it thinks you aren’t paying attention. I’m curious to see what this amounts to because Autopilot is already pretty sensitive to this. Pick up your phone or look away from the road for more than a few seconds and the in-cabin car notices and warns you. I don’t know of a comparable system in any car with self driving or without.
- pseudocomposer 3y agoMy 2020 Hyundai has this.
- yread 3y agoand also tells you if you look tired (and need a coffee). And it actually works pretty well
- soco 3y agoMy 2014 VW had this already, so really not sure what's the big breakthrough for Tesla here.
- oblio 3y ago> big breakthrough for Tesla Marketing, marketing, especially to Americans. Tesla's highlighting stuff that various other car brands have and I think there's also an influx of newish drivers that just didn't check what their cars were capable of (nobody reads the manual).
- oorza 3y agoDitto my 2021 Volvo, with alertness monitored as well (it pops up an adorable cup of coffee on your dash!).
- Reason077 3y agoInteresting. 2023 Polestar 2 does not seem to have any real alertness monitoring. It just checks that your hands are on the steering wheel. And just like Tesla, sometimes you have to give it a little wiggle so it knows you’re paying attention! Very nice car though: excellent build quality and driving feel. Some aspects of the Google software not quite as good as Tesla’s however (but the maps/navigation are excellent, maybe even better than Tesla).
- freedomben 3y agoI really wonder where we're headed (in general, not specifically with Teslas) regarding technologies requirements to "do enough to prevent misuse." These requirements are already a major thorn in my side. My car has sensors to detect when a passenger isn't wearing a seat belt and to blast an ear-hurting alarm directly at the driver. It's so loud that it's actually a safety issue in itself because it's hard to focus on driving when there is a blaring alarm in your face. The worst of the problem though, is that the system is made to be ultra cautious and thus has a lot of false positives. For example, if I put my backpack on the passenger seat, I have to plug the seat belt in otherwise it will scream at me once my speed hits 10 MPH. Or if one of my kids decides to change seats so unbuckles and moves to a new chair and buckles in that one, then the car will scream at me unless both buckles are buckled, even if there's no weight in the previous seat. It takes several minutes to timeout and stop, meanwhile it is ear-splittingly loud and so bad that it's unsafe to drive while it's blaring. There are more things, like if I leave the engine running while walking away with the key fob in my pocket, it will loudly honk twice. This happens constantly. Just this morning it honked ear splittingly loud in my face while I was scraping the ice from my windshield. Then of course there is the complete disabling of the in-car navigation controls while moving, so my passenger can't configure the map while I'm driving, even though there is absolutely no reason to do that. The net result is also that I end up using my phone which is way less safe because I have to look down and the controls are not even remotely optimized for quick and low-attention use. Our modern way of maximizing the responsiblity of the manufacturer to prevent misuse and minimizing the liability of the person doing the misusing is leading us to some real bad places IMHO.
- peteradio 3y agoAgreed. I heard a story about a guy who is used to chewing tobacco while driving and would crack open the door and spit while moving at speed. He tried doing this in his son's new jeep and the car immediately slammed on the brakes and nearly caused an accident. Obviously cracking the door to spit out the bottom isn't too safe but slamming on the brakes? What why?
- Cacti 3y ago
- thuuuomas 3y agoI wonder if that Tesla that exploded at the Canadian border in NY prompted threats of regulatory action.
- philk10 3y agoYou mean the one at the border station? That was a Bentley
- rabbits_2002 3y agounrelated, but does anyone else start to panic in autonomous vehicles? Every time I have been in a Tesla with autopilot on I immediately feel dread and and impending doom and I get very anxious.
- mensetmanusman 3y agoNo, but this was apparently a thing with some claustrophobics when full self driving elevators were released.
- comboy 3y agoIf that the case, perhaps you should feel that way every time you are near a road. Without commenting on autopilot performance, there are enough drivers who are worse. Maybe autopilot just helps you realize that you are not really fully in control about everything that may happen.
- dncornholio 3y agoOr maybe it's because Autopilot doesn't drive as smooth as a real person and the display shows jagged lines where the road should be. You really have to trust the system but it's making it hard to do so if you are skeptic.
- epups 3y agoI've been driving with other people on the road for years. People might be worse on average but at least they don't get a firmware update that could potentially kill you.
- maximus-decimus 3y agoNo, they just get drunk instead.
- dymk 3y agoPeople absolutely do get erratic for no reason
- 3y ago
- mensetmanusman 3y agoStill calling over the air software updates recalls?
- ceejayoz 3y agoYes, if the update has to be required by regulators.
- moolcool 3y agoWhy does the delivery mechanism matter?
- mensetmanusman 3y agoBecause some recalls require a hassle of leaving your vehicle somewhere for some time.
- acdha 3y ago… and many do not? Recall just refers to the mechanism that the NHTSA has to require confirmation of safety fixes. There’s nothing about leaving your vehicle in the shop, so if you’re confused about that it’s only a chance to learn how the car industry uses that word to refer to a specific legal process.
- ryanklee 3y agoThe number of people in this comment section that are getting hung up on the word recall without looking into established usage and legal definitions of the word is nuts.
- _ea1k 3y agoI'm not referring to this specific recall here, but, it does get weird in Tesla's case. Years ago, Tesla issued an update that added some features to show warnings in certain cases. It previously showed no warnings because the feature didn't exist. It was net new. NHTSA warned them that this net new feature improved safety and was therefore a recall by definition. Ever since then, "recall" has been heavily overused, IMO. Virtually every update is a "recall" by the technical definition. :facepalm Using "recall" for what they are defining as a safety defect is, of course, reasonable, even if it is just a software update.
- AYBABTME 3y agoAutopilot is already trigger happy and turning off for nothing, this will kill the value of using it. It's already quite annoying to have to do more dumb performative work to use Autopilot than to use a legacy radar based cruise control with lane keeping... At the end of the day, even with FSD the software isn't good enough to be more than a glorified lane keeping adaptive cruise control, but it's more annoyingly starring at your eyeballs than dumber cars. And now I guess it'll be worse? My Model Y turned off FSD when I was fully engaged, but with my head tilted sideways. It wants me to sit in a particular way and have my head straight for some reason. It's really annoying.
- darknavi 3y agoThat's odd. I've had AP and FSD disable abruptly a hand full of times in the last five years on our Model 3 and Model Y. It will happily chime at me if it thinks I am looking at my phone or something, but it is just doing the blue strobe + audible chime, not completely disabling. From my experience if FSD/AP turns off without me turning it off, it makes sounds that seem like the whole airplane is going to crash. Same with lane departure warnings.
- AYBABTME 3y agoYep but sometimes it acts in mysterious ways. Also the whole blue hue thing when I'm focused on the road is quite annoying.
- mikpanko 3y agohttps://archive.is/otHUm https://archive.is/otHUm
- xyst 3y agoTesla really is a garbage car all around. Suspicious build quality. Features locked behind software gate. False claims of full autonomous AI. Broken OTA updates. So glad I didn’t pull the trigger when it was hyped. Anecdotally, the worst drivers I have ever encountered on the road are the basic white Tesla drivers. Almost on par with beat down Nissan Altima drivers.
- averageRoyalty 3y agoI've had mine for 4 years, and I'm very happy with it. Myself and everyone else I know with one have fine build quality - and in Australia this would be repaired promptly for free if it were not the case. I've never had a broken OTA update. I don't pay for the extras, but paying for extra features on a car is as old as cars. It's a very comfortable car which is nice to drive, cheap to run and has many features. I'm not sure how you get to "garbage" here.
- shmatt 3y ago(White) Teslas are just more common, but EV acceleration is dangerous in the wrong hands. My family friendly electric Volvo CUV does 0-60 as fast as a Porsche 911. The EX-30 is going to be about 25% faster. Mass adoption is going to be pretty scary
- toss1 3y agoMeanwhile, Musk is suing California claiming that restrictions on false advertising are a 1st Amendment violation [0]. He wants to be free to lie claiming that it is fully autonomous. And here is a 2 million recall for safety issues on the same system. I used to have a lot of respect for him. Now, it's just repulsion. [0] https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/12/tesla-fights-autopilot-false-advertising-claim-with-free-speech-argument/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/12/tesla-fights-aut...
- oblio 3y ago> Meanwhile, Musk is suing California claiming that restrictions on false advertising are a 1st Amendment violation [0]. That is so on the nose American :-)))) You know, the world is full of suckers, I should be free to separate them from their money, it's MY RIGHT! :-))))
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- nkotov 3y agoI'm on my fifth Tesla now and I drive a lot. The switch from radar to pure vision has been really disruptive and annoying, especially in tight spaces like a garage. If this ends up causing more nagging, the value of having autopilot will simply be worth the "costs". I used FSD beta and while it's a cool party trick, I just don't trust it enough to use every single day compared to using basic autopilot. I've driven with GM's Super Cruise (Escalade) and it's about 80 percent the same as basic autopilot. The interior quality is much better but you're in a GM vehicle which are kind of known to be ticking-time bombs.
- oblio 3y ago> kind of known to be ticking-time bombs. Do you mean they're mechanically bad and they start failing after N years? (N is traditionally somewhere around 7 years)
- _ea1k 3y agoThis includes Mobileye cars without driver monitoring. I wonder if they will take similar action against various other Mobileye cars? My Nissan Propilot behaves very similarly to AP, just with less capability and even less alertness monitoring. Surely it would be affected by the same recall? Along with a lot of other cars using similar systems? Or maybe there is some subtle difference, but the article doesn't really make that clear. And given the broadness on the Tesla side, it is hard to see what could be different.
- enragedcacti 3y agoI'm not sure what to make of it from a legal perspective, but from an automation safety perspective the difference is the "Valley of Degraded Supervision"[1]. A very simple automated system that makes a lot of mistakes will make a driver more alert than baseline, but as the automation improves drivers will quickly start to trust the system too much and lose alertness. There is a huge gulf where the system is good enough to cause loss of alertness, but where the failure rate is still far higher than the average human driver. But you're right, in that context it doesn't make much sense to apply to AP1 cars but not everybody else. It is a voluntary recall so Tesla might just be recalling everything named "Autopilot" even if a mandated recall wouldn't have. [1] http://safeautonomy.blogspot.com/2019/01/how-road-testing-self-driving-cars-gets.html http://safeautonomy.blogspot.com/2019/01/how-road-testing-se...
- _ea1k 3y agoI think so too. TBH, the Propilot system rarely got activated, because of how ineffective it was. But if they are left out of a recall like this, that would mean that we are penalizing systems for being more effective. I'm not sure how I feel about that, especially if the boundaries aren't well defined.
- enragedcacti 3y agoAgreed, I find it concerning that even the basic system in my recent Ford feels like its edging into degraded supervision territory under certain circumstances despite only having steering based attention monitoring. Regulators/congress should be much more proactive about defining what constitutes proper driver monitoring. I think the big issue is that the NHTSA is fundamentally a reactive organization. Automakers self-certify compliance with the regulations, then at some point later the NHTSA may investigate and take action against a specific product or manufacturer if there are enough complaints. Legally I'm not sure that they are allowed to make broad recalls even if its the logical thing to do.
- 1970-01-01 3y agoThe Actual NHTSA recall report is here: https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2023/RCLRPT-23V838-8276.PDF https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2023/RCLRPT-23V838-8276.PDF Relevant part: >Description of the Safety Risk : In certain circumstances when Autosteer is engaged, if a driver misuses the SAE Level 2 advanced driver-assistance feature such that they fail to maintain continuous and sustained responsibility for vehicle operation and are unprepared to intervene, fail to recognize when the feature is canceled or not engaged, and/or fail to recognize when the feature is operating in situations where its functionality may be limited, there may be an increased risk of a collision.