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Call it what it is.. they like the control of their in car entertainment systems and they don't want external companies taking that part of the pie. It's okay

Call it what it is.. they like the control of their in car entertainment systems and they don't want external companies taking that part of the pie. It's okay gm, we understand. Let's hope you are able to make a compelling competition to this, otherwise your sales will suffer. Traditional car software is very very poor for whatever reason. I don't think that car manufacturers have the mindset and capability to make even passable software, let alone competitive software.

Kurd 3y ago
Calling it car software is very generous. More like abandonware.
- mulmen 3y ago
  I want abandonware in my car. Don't include alpha-grade software in a mid-five-figure product. If you can't get it right don't ship it. The navigation/infotainment space is a thoroughly solved domain. We don't need biweekly OTA updates to add the latest trendy thing. I don't want controls moving around or menus changing based on a perverted engagement metric. BMW "pathced" several mechanical features of my car. This is called a "recall". Auto manufacturers try to avoid them.
  - viraptor 3y ago
    I've got abandonware in my Ford. It's got a bug in the Bluetooth stack which makes it unusable with my new phone. It's never going to be updated, so out of 2 users of that car, one can't play media and the other needs to deal with occasional infosystem crashes that require a full reset and re-pairing. You may be lucky today, but as years go by, you'll find some bugs too. As Bluetooth standards evolve, you'll want non-recall updates in your car.
    - mulmen 3y ago
      Well the car is a 2010 model year and still works as well as the day it was new. The Bluetooth might stop working at some point but 14 years seems pretty good. The infotainment system might not even have been new that year and could go back as far as 2007.
    - wwweston 3y ago
      or an aux jack
      - viraptor 3y ago
        You mean a dongle to aux jack, because that's a new phone. I can also not use a cable and turn the volume up to max. Either way, that's a workaround for something that's actually broken and could be fixed with a software update.
        wwweston 3y ago
        > You mean a dongle to aux jack, because that's a new phone. Yes, that's the way most phones have gone. > I can also not use a cable and turn the volume up to max. My experience with 1/8" connections is that you have two means to change the volume, the one on the source and the one on the destination. There can be some issues with driving both hot (or one hot and one weak), but you set the destination in the modest middle and it works just fine. > Either way, that's a workaround for something that's actually broken and could be fixed with a software update. "Workaround" is the wrong way to refer to a "just works" physical standard that functioned reliably and adequately for decades without any need for continued attention / updates. Especially when comparing it to a sand-castle software stack. Wireless audio protocols have a few nice situational advantages, but they have not yet really reached a point where they're suitable outright replacements, and short of attaining wireless power combined with an utterly boring level of commodified stability, it's possible they won't get there.
        mulmen 3y ago
        The disadvantage to the aux jack is I can only control volume while driving. With the built-in hard drive I can change songs as well. That is loaded from simple USB drives. 2010 was still the era of technology serving us.
  - aembleton 3y ago
    I would like an update to the navigation when a road is changed though. Its things like that that have caused me to install and Android Auto head unit into my 2008 car as the built in navigation is way out of date.
threatofrain 3y ago
Unfortunately consumers don't really punish companies for doing these kinds of things, at least I presume that's the story since high-end cars often have very shitty in-car computer experiences, like BMW or Porsche.
- KerrAvon 3y ago
  All car infotainment systems are essentially garbage. But BMW and Porsche both have excellent CarPlay support.
  - brandonagr2 3y ago
    The infotainment screen in my Tesla is great. Just the other day I had to drive a relatives car and used google maps navigation on my phone, I was amazed at how subpar google maps navigation is compared to tesla (lacking ability to quickly overview route, missing lane based navigation, screen never auto recenters as you drive)
    - buttersbrian 3y ago
      Google Maps has lane navigation. IDK what you mean about 'auto' recentering. I think it does this though. There used to be a zoom out/overview feature, but it's def not in Android Auto these days.
    - helf 3y ago
      [dead]
    - gruturo 3y ago
      Both Tesla's navigation system and Google Maps suck, but in different ways. Neither is able to suggest the best routes - Google Maps will try to make me waste 4km and 6 minutes suggesting a crappy route - only to update (showing much improved distance and ETA) when I disregard its guidance and take what road I know is more direct. The Tesla maps are surprisingly better in this regard but they are often completely unaware of traffic or road closures (this is in Germany mind you - maybe in the US they behave better). Also they flood you with useless instructions (keep left to stay on Highway XX. How about you only tell me when it's time to leave the highway, not to remain on it?). I just look at both in the morning, make my own opinion on what road would be best, then I close them both and use Waze for the alerts. But for example, if I'm traveling somewhere far away, with charging stops, I _have_ to use the Tesla maps because the car will then start preheating the battery on approach to a charger.
dreamcompiler 3y ago
I expect they don't want to pay what great software engineers cost, and even if they did, most such engineers probably wouldn't want to put up with GM's bureaucracy. It's probably kinda the same story with great mechanical and industrial engineers, which is why approximately nobody finds GM cars exciting.
- jimmaswell 3y ago
  It doesn't take much more than not going for the cheapest offshore team possible to make better car media center code than we get. I'm sure most of us could easily do it ourselves in a month or less. It seems like such a simple problem. Play songs and interface with some controls/radio receiver/etc while being at least a tiny bit conscious of efficiency.
  - Rayhem 3y ago
    This is an incredibly myopic take bordering on arrogance. The infotainment system of a vehicle needs (as in, is mandated) to be as safety compliant as the rest of the vehicle's software so your steering doesn't lock out when the display crashes. Writing software for safety critical systems is not a task most developers are familiar with.
    - mulmen 3y ago
      Uh, what? If my infotainment system is capable of influencing my steering or any safety-critical function then malpractice has been committed. Infotainment needs only read (one-way) capability on the vehicle.
      - sterlind 3y ago
        I do wonder about the CAN bus. there's no access control on the CAN network, there's one shared bus for the whole car, and any controller can starve the bus by spamming with a high address, unless that's changed. you'd hope that there'd be some kind of filtering to prevent the infotainment system from sending (arbitrary) CAN messages, but I recall some crazy demos of researchers pwning a car's accelerator after rooting the center console.
jader201 3y ago
This just feels like suicide, honestly. I mean, GM doesn’t seem to have a reputation for building the best, most reliable vehicles as it is — even just looking at domestics (factor in imports, and there’s no comparison). Every time I shop for a vehicle, it’s crazy how GMs are almost universally lower rated than all other vehicles. I mean, maybe they have cost on their side, but they better hope that and brand loyalty is all they need. Maybe this was once not a major factor, and maybe it’s still not for some. But I’d say the number of people that don’t care about CarPlay or Android Auto is shrinking.
mulmen 3y ago
My 2010 BMW has excellent infotainment software. Better than any new car I have driven (all rentals). Navigation is easily controlled with the iDrive knob. Previous destinations are sorted in reverse chronological order. New destinations are easy to enter. Adding destinations works as expected (insert/append). When the fuel gauge reaches 1/8 of a tank the car prompts to add a gas station on the route which can be accepted with a single button press of the main iDrive knob. When a trip is in progress I can search on the route by category for points of interest like rest stops. It picks up traffic information over AM radio and uses that information when routing. Similarly pleasant experience when operating the radio/built in mp3 player. Everything can be done with iDrive but there are also dedicated buttons on the steering wheel and dashboard. Climate control is managed by physical knobs. Bluetooth calling is supported but Bluetooth audio (music) is not. Overall an excellent experience. It's obviously dated and a little slow but completely serviceable even today. The system is completely self-contained so it does need map updates from time to time. OTA updates, even on wifi would be nice. From a design perspective I have no complaints at all, it is well integrated with the car and otherwise stays out of the way. A helpful tool.
- msh 3y ago
  It would be useless to me personally. I hate radio. I don’t listen to much music. When driving I mostly listen to podcasts and audiobooks which sounds like is not really practically possible.
  - mulmen 3y ago
    It has an aux cord so you can plug in a cell phone. Or you can use a USB drive to transfer files to the internal hard drive. The lack of Bluetooth Audio is the greatest flaw of the system. It does have a "cradle" in the center console to connect a phone, I believe audio is supported by that. Unfortunately it requires an adapter and 2010 was the era of phone minification so there's not physically room for modern mega-phones to fit between the cradle headers, even if BMW kept up with adapters. There's also an iPod adapter but it uses the 30-pin plug. I haven't tried plugging in a regular 30-pin to USB A plug to the console USB port, that might work as well. The navigation functionality is far superior to anything else I have seen.
seanmcdirmid 3y ago
Tesla is the exception here: they seem to have mastered making a car software experience that doesn’t suck, and they don’t even support CarPlay. But Tesla is a tech/software company that happens to make cars (of dubious build quality), I don’t think conventional automakers can replicate that.
- andsoitis 3y ago
  Tesla software experience far outshines CarPlay and Android Auto.
  - szundi 3y ago
    In those specific usecases that it implements. Also navigation makes idiotic moves lately.
    - tivert 3y ago
      I do not own a Tesla, but I've seen videos that told me that you pretty much have to use it's in car navigation system, for good reason: it factors in your route to give you an accurate range estimate, otherwise the estimates can be (significantly) off. That's important given that even the best electric cars have shorter range than gas cars, and there are far fewer recharging options than there are refueling options.
      - pi-rat 3y ago
        It will also use knowledge about the destination to prep the car. Heading to a charger? It will prep the battery so that it’s at the optimal temperature for charging on arrival etc.. That said though, there are route planners that can give excellent range estimation (both for online and offline cars), by taking into account the terrain/temperature/etc, like ABetterRoutePlanner - ABRP
  - msh 3y ago
    But it lacks good media apps for podcasts and audiobooks unfortunately.
kmlx 3y ago
> Call it what it is.. they like the control of their in car entertainment systems and they don't want external companies taking that part of the pie. they did call it as it is. it's in the article: > In addition to potentially buying things from GM or GM’s partners through their car’s infotainment system, GM is also looking at subscription services that would be managed through the same interface. GM’s chief digital officer, Edward Kummer, told Reuters as much when the decision to drop CarPlay and Android Auto was announced. Automakers see subscriptions as huge new source of income to be tapped, with GM alone hoping to make as much as $25 billion per year just off subscriptions by 2030.
- bluefirebrand 3y ago
  I am dreading the future of cars, where they somehow are worse than a car I could buy right now but also I have to pay a monthly subscription for the worse experience. The enshittification of everything is making me want to go berserk.
  - pmg102 3y ago
    There's no obligation to buy a new one. Keep your existing cars on the road or replace them with other low mileage used ones. I bet repair costs on used are less than depreciatiom + finance costs on new, and there's pleasure to be gained from a retro aesthetic.
    - bluefirebrand 3y ago
      Sure, I plan to drive my current car until the wheels fall off, but that's not the point. I'm young enough that I will very likely need to buy a new-to-me car eventually, and there's a good chance that by then a lot of the used cars out there will be the enshitted versions. I'm not looking forward to it.
    - pmontra 3y ago
      Time passes and sooner or later the oldest available used car will be from 2024. Add the effect of legislation which could deny access to some areas important for you unless you have a car compliant to regulations made in 2030.

Kurd 3y ago

Calling it car software is very generous. More like abandonware.

mulmen 3y ago
I want abandonware in my car. Don't include alpha-grade software in a mid-five-figure product. If you can't get it right don't ship it. The navigation/infotainment space is a thoroughly solved domain. We don't need biweekly OTA updates to add the latest trendy thing. I don't want controls moving around or menus changing based on a perverted engagement metric. BMW "pathced" several mechanical features of my car. This is called a "recall". Auto manufacturers try to avoid them.
- viraptor 3y ago
  I've got abandonware in my Ford. It's got a bug in the Bluetooth stack which makes it unusable with my new phone. It's never going to be updated, so out of 2 users of that car, one can't play media and the other needs to deal with occasional infosystem crashes that require a full reset and re-pairing. You may be lucky today, but as years go by, you'll find some bugs too. As Bluetooth standards evolve, you'll want non-recall updates in your car.
  - mulmen 3y ago
    Well the car is a 2010 model year and still works as well as the day it was new. The Bluetooth might stop working at some point but 14 years seems pretty good. The infotainment system might not even have been new that year and could go back as far as 2007.
  - wwweston 3y ago
    or an aux jack
    - viraptor 3y ago
      You mean a dongle to aux jack, because that's a new phone. I can also not use a cable and turn the volume up to max. Either way, that's a workaround for something that's actually broken and could be fixed with a software update.
      - wwweston 3y ago
        > You mean a dongle to aux jack, because that's a new phone. Yes, that's the way most phones have gone. > I can also not use a cable and turn the volume up to max. My experience with 1/8" connections is that you have two means to change the volume, the one on the source and the one on the destination. There can be some issues with driving both hot (or one hot and one weak), but you set the destination in the modest middle and it works just fine. > Either way, that's a workaround for something that's actually broken and could be fixed with a software update. "Workaround" is the wrong way to refer to a "just works" physical standard that functioned reliably and adequately for decades without any need for continued attention / updates. Especially when comparing it to a sand-castle software stack. Wireless audio protocols have a few nice situational advantages, but they have not yet really reached a point where they're suitable outright replacements, and short of attaining wireless power combined with an utterly boring level of commodified stability, it's possible they won't get there.
        mulmen 3y ago
        The disadvantage to the aux jack is I can only control volume while driving. With the built-in hard drive I can change songs as well. That is loaded from simple USB drives. 2010 was still the era of technology serving us.
- aembleton 3y ago
  I would like an update to the navigation when a road is changed though. Its things like that that have caused me to install and Android Auto head unit into my 2008 car as the built in navigation is way out of date.

threatofrain 3y ago

Unfortunately consumers don't really punish companies for doing these kinds of things, at least I presume that's the story since high-end cars often have very shitty in-car computer experiences, like BMW or Porsche.

KerrAvon 3y ago
All car infotainment systems are essentially garbage. But BMW and Porsche both have excellent CarPlay support.
- brandonagr2 3y ago
  The infotainment screen in my Tesla is great. Just the other day I had to drive a relatives car and used google maps navigation on my phone, I was amazed at how subpar google maps navigation is compared to tesla (lacking ability to quickly overview route, missing lane based navigation, screen never auto recenters as you drive)
  - buttersbrian 3y ago
    Google Maps has lane navigation. IDK what you mean about 'auto' recentering. I think it does this though. There used to be a zoom out/overview feature, but it's def not in Android Auto these days.
  - helf 3y ago
    [dead]
  - gruturo 3y ago
    Both Tesla's navigation system and Google Maps suck, but in different ways. Neither is able to suggest the best routes - Google Maps will try to make me waste 4km and 6 minutes suggesting a crappy route - only to update (showing much improved distance and ETA) when I disregard its guidance and take what road I know is more direct. The Tesla maps are surprisingly better in this regard but they are often completely unaware of traffic or road closures (this is in Germany mind you - maybe in the US they behave better). Also they flood you with useless instructions (keep left to stay on Highway XX. How about you only tell me when it's time to leave the highway, not to remain on it?). I just look at both in the morning, make my own opinion on what road would be best, then I close them both and use Waze for the alerts. But for example, if I'm traveling somewhere far away, with charging stops, I _have_ to use the Tesla maps because the car will then start preheating the battery on approach to a charger.

dreamcompiler 3y ago

I expect they don't want to pay what great software engineers cost, and even if they did, most such engineers probably wouldn't want to put up with GM's bureaucracy. It's probably kinda the same story with great mechanical and industrial engineers, which is why approximately nobody finds GM cars exciting.

jimmaswell 3y ago
It doesn't take much more than not going for the cheapest offshore team possible to make better car media center code than we get. I'm sure most of us could easily do it ourselves in a month or less. It seems like such a simple problem. Play songs and interface with some controls/radio receiver/etc while being at least a tiny bit conscious of efficiency.
- Rayhem 3y ago
  This is an incredibly myopic take bordering on arrogance. The infotainment system of a vehicle needs (as in, is mandated) to be as safety compliant as the rest of the vehicle's software so your steering doesn't lock out when the display crashes. Writing software for safety critical systems is not a task most developers are familiar with.
  - mulmen 3y ago
    Uh, what? If my infotainment system is capable of influencing my steering or any safety-critical function then malpractice has been committed. Infotainment needs only read (one-way) capability on the vehicle.
    - sterlind 3y ago
      I do wonder about the CAN bus. there's no access control on the CAN network, there's one shared bus for the whole car, and any controller can starve the bus by spamming with a high address, unless that's changed. you'd hope that there'd be some kind of filtering to prevent the infotainment system from sending (arbitrary) CAN messages, but I recall some crazy demos of researchers pwning a car's accelerator after rooting the center console.

jader201 3y ago

This just feels like suicide, honestly. I mean, GM doesn’t seem to have a reputation for building the best, most reliable vehicles as it is — even just looking at domestics (factor in imports, and there’s no comparison). Every time I shop for a vehicle, it’s crazy how GMs are almost universally lower rated than all other vehicles. I mean, maybe they have cost on their side, but they better hope that and brand loyalty is all they need. Maybe this was once not a major factor, and maybe it’s still not for some. But I’d say the number of people that don’t care about CarPlay or Android Auto is shrinking.

mulmen 3y ago

My 2010 BMW has excellent infotainment software. Better than any new car I have driven (all rentals). Navigation is easily controlled with the iDrive knob. Previous destinations are sorted in reverse chronological order. New destinations are easy to enter. Adding destinations works as expected (insert/append). When the fuel gauge reaches 1/8 of a tank the car prompts to add a gas station on the route which can be accepted with a single button press of the main iDrive knob. When a trip is in progress I can search on the route by category for points of interest like rest stops. It picks up traffic information over AM radio and uses that information when routing. Similarly pleasant experience when operating the radio/built in mp3 player. Everything can be done with iDrive but there are also dedicated buttons on the steering wheel and dashboard. Climate control is managed by physical knobs. Bluetooth calling is supported but Bluetooth audio (music) is not. Overall an excellent experience. It's obviously dated and a little slow but completely serviceable even today. The system is completely self-contained so it does need map updates from time to time. OTA updates, even on wifi would be nice. From a design perspective I have no complaints at all, it is well integrated with the car and otherwise stays out of the way. A helpful tool.

msh 3y ago
It would be useless to me personally. I hate radio. I don’t listen to much music. When driving I mostly listen to podcasts and audiobooks which sounds like is not really practically possible.
- mulmen 3y ago
  It has an aux cord so you can plug in a cell phone. Or you can use a USB drive to transfer files to the internal hard drive. The lack of Bluetooth Audio is the greatest flaw of the system. It does have a "cradle" in the center console to connect a phone, I believe audio is supported by that. Unfortunately it requires an adapter and 2010 was the era of phone minification so there's not physically room for modern mega-phones to fit between the cradle headers, even if BMW kept up with adapters. There's also an iPod adapter but it uses the 30-pin plug. I haven't tried plugging in a regular 30-pin to USB A plug to the console USB port, that might work as well. The navigation functionality is far superior to anything else I have seen.

seanmcdirmid 3y ago

Tesla is the exception here: they seem to have mastered making a car software experience that doesn’t suck, and they don’t even support CarPlay. But Tesla is a tech/software company that happens to make cars (of dubious build quality), I don’t think conventional automakers can replicate that.

andsoitis 3y ago
Tesla software experience far outshines CarPlay and Android Auto.
- szundi 3y ago
  In those specific usecases that it implements. Also navigation makes idiotic moves lately.
  - tivert 3y ago
    I do not own a Tesla, but I've seen videos that told me that you pretty much have to use it's in car navigation system, for good reason: it factors in your route to give you an accurate range estimate, otherwise the estimates can be (significantly) off. That's important given that even the best electric cars have shorter range than gas cars, and there are far fewer recharging options than there are refueling options.
    - pi-rat 3y ago
      It will also use knowledge about the destination to prep the car. Heading to a charger? It will prep the battery so that it’s at the optimal temperature for charging on arrival etc.. That said though, there are route planners that can give excellent range estimation (both for online and offline cars), by taking into account the terrain/temperature/etc, like ABetterRoutePlanner - ABRP
- msh 3y ago
  But it lacks good media apps for podcasts and audiobooks unfortunately.

kmlx 3y ago

> Call it what it is.. they like the control of their in car entertainment systems and they don't want external companies taking that part of the pie. they did call it as it is. it's in the article: > In addition to potentially buying things from GM or GM’s partners through their car’s infotainment system, GM is also looking at subscription services that would be managed through the same interface. GM’s chief digital officer, Edward Kummer, told Reuters as much when the decision to drop CarPlay and Android Auto was announced. Automakers see subscriptions as huge new source of income to be tapped, with GM alone hoping to make as much as $25 billion per year just off subscriptions by 2030.

bluefirebrand 3y ago
I am dreading the future of cars, where they somehow are worse than a car I could buy right now but also I have to pay a monthly subscription for the worse experience. The enshittification of everything is making me want to go berserk.
- pmg102 3y ago
  There's no obligation to buy a new one. Keep your existing cars on the road or replace them with other low mileage used ones. I bet repair costs on used are less than depreciatiom + finance costs on new, and there's pleasure to be gained from a retro aesthetic.
  - bluefirebrand 3y ago
    Sure, I plan to drive my current car until the wheels fall off, but that's not the point. I'm young enough that I will very likely need to buy a new-to-me car eventually, and there's a good chance that by then a lot of the used cars out there will be the enshitted versions. I'm not looking forward to it.
  - pmontra 3y ago
    Time passes and sooner or later the oldest available used car will be from 2024. Add the effect of legislation which could deny access to some areas important for you unless you have a car compliant to regulations made in 2030.