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> Is nobody in the EU bringing up the question why every single European citizen is dependent on US hardware, US software and US services? And even more concer

by elteto 3y ago

> Is nobody in the EU bringing up the question why every single European citizen is dependent on US hardware, US software and US services? And even more concerning is the dependence on US aid and weapons for Ukraine. How Europe doesn’t see Ukraine’s invasion as an existential threat is beyond me.

api 3y ago
If isolationists like Trump come to power in the US and do things like pull out of NATO, Europe might be suddenly in serious trouble. This is not a far fetched possibility. Even if Trump loses or isn’t even on the ticket, an increasing number of younger Americans are opposed to overseas involvements including some on the left side of the spectrum. Ballooning US national debt interest and social security issues could force the US to make steep cuts in places like military and overseas aid.
- Jerrrry 3y ago
  [flagged]
- simion314 3y ago
  You need to remind those americans that Europe buys a lot of military crap from USA, pulling from NATO might cost USA more, and frankly Europe had a lot to pay from USA operations around the world by sending peace keeprs there or by having to handle the refuges. I would be that pulling from NATO will not make those military money be moved into healthcare, I heard this story with Brexit.
  - FredPret 3y ago
    European nations might buy a lot of hardware from the States, but the US also maintains a large and very expensive military presence there, and everywhere. So if military relations cool down, the US pulls out of Europe, and Europe exclusively buys its own arms, it might actually save the US money. But that seems a little far-fetched. There's a lot of transatlantic banter on the internet but when the chips are down, the West will likely pull together yet again.
    - mcpackieh 3y ago
      Culling American military bases overseas would also reduce the risk of American politicians capriciously choosing to use those military bases as the staging points for military adventurism; the "War on Terror" was greatly facilitated by those bases. As somebody who thinks that 'war' was a disaster for the interests of average Americans, I would not be sad to see the means for America to wage foreign wars greatly diminished. I simply don't trust the American political system to be a responsible steward of that much global military power.
      - FredPret 3y ago
        You may be right, but who else would do it? I feel like Russia would be invading the entire EU, and China would invade Taiwan if they thought they could get away with it.
        mcpackieh 3y ago
        Countries should be left to handle their own affairs; that's the responsibility that is inherent to sovereignty. The premise of a global hegemon who babysits the world and enforces the rules (dictated by themselves and their allies of course) is an anachronistic leftover from the age of imperialism. If the rest of the world wants America to play world police (and for the most part, I don't believe they do) let them pay the American public for this service.
        FredPret 3y ago
        Very reasonable, but the last time an American president suggested this, the world shouted him down as an idiot.
        MerManMaid 3y ago
        In a world where we have 9 nuclear powers, I struggle to see how your system would keep them in check; nuclear fallout effects all of humanity and quite literally could make the planet inhabitable. I bring this up because any system that replaces the current world order needs to be able to keep these nuclear powers in check.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    > You need to remind those americans that Europe buys a lot of military crap from USA, pulling from NATO might cost USA more, and frankly Europe had a lot to pay from USA operations around the world by sending peace keeprs there or by having to handle the refuges. Since when do populists make decisions based on logic and long term outcomes? It wouldn’t be weird for an American leader like Trump to act irrationally, he doesn’t even need support from most Americans to execute his whimsy.
  - witherk 3y ago
    Seems that we are assuming that net number of refugees is greater because of US action. I have no idea how this calculus is done though.
- fullspectrumdev 3y ago
  If the US wants to end Pax Americana, a strategy that has served the US extremely well, that’s on them in the end - it’s their choice. They shouldn’t be surprised though when it leads to losing out on a lot of trade, loss of influence, etc.
xcv123 3y ago
[flagged]
- pegasus 3y ago
  Seems naive to me. For one, countries have committed suicide before. And Putin has repeatedly claimed that Ukraine is not a real country, that it's a part of his country lured away by the West. I'm pretty sure his ideal scenario is for Ukraine to return to Russia and the countries of the Warsaw Pact to return under Russia's sphere of influence. Remember, Austria used to be the buffer state in those days.
  - xcv123 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - simion314 3y ago
      This is Kremlin propaganda, from their perspective all eastern European countries are brainwashed by CIA to want in EU and NATO, most Russian actually believe that is not possible that their neighbors actually dislike Russia and want in EU. I can confirm to you that Russia is heavily working on preventing Moldova to enter EU and this is not an existential problem from Russia, they just want to extend their sphere of influence back in eastern Europe because they believe Russia is a super power like USA and they demand their right as a super power to get East Europe back.
      - xcv123 3y ago
        US invasion of Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, etc, is an historical reality. Not Kremlin propaganda. I am just observing and thinking independently. Ukraine obviously became aligned with the US/NATO side before Russia invaded. > they just want to extend their sphere of influence back in eastern Europe because they believe Russia is a super power like USA and they demand their right as a super power to get East Europe back. This is too simplistic, almost childish. Neither the US or Russia are that simple.
uxp8u61q 3y ago
You must live in a bubble if you think that EU leaders don't see the invasion of Ukraine as an existential threat... Do you get all your news about what happens in Europe from HN?
- edrxty 3y ago
  Not OP but just going off the numbers, the US has been contributing more military aid than all other countries combined. I'm glad everyone is supporting them but a bunch of the European countries dragged their heels through the first several months of the war while the US was sending stuff by the ship load. I get that the US is one big war machine but it's not like the EU doesn't have anything to give, they just decided that their own territorial defense was more important even though any supplies would be going towards fighting the only threatening aggressor in the region.
  - pantalaimon 3y ago
    I think the problem is that EU countries don't have much military themselves to begin with.
    - edrxty 3y ago
      They have a lot more than they're giving. Almost everything so far has been old models that were already replaced
  - Strom 3y ago
    > just going off the numbers, the US has been contributing more military aid than all other countries combined The US has given the most in absolute numbers, but that's mostly a result of the fact that the US is by far the richest nation in absolute numbers. When you look at aid given to Ukraine as a percent of GDP [1] you won't find the US even in the top 10. Instead the biggest contributors are European nations that directly border Russia. Thus I don't think it's accurate to characterize the European countries as dragging their heels. That's more of a Germany thing. -- [1] https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/ https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-s...
tomp 3y ago
European here. Ukraine/Russia war is caused by disagreements between US/NATO and Russia. EU has nothing to do with it, and if US didn't involve itself with Europe or try to expand NATO, there wouldn't be any war. The chance of it spreading to the rest of Europe, except if EU countries attack Russia (or help Ukraine with too much weapons), is zero.
- simion314 3y ago
  We in eastern europe want in NATO, our Western European would sell us for Putin's gases.
  - elteto 3y ago
    And he doesn’t realize that what keeps it from spreading to the rest of Europe is precisely NATO. So ironic.
- tasubotadas 3y ago
  [flagged]
- elteto 3y ago
  What I’m reading here, honestly, is that mainstream Europe would readily abandon Poland, Ukraine, Finland and who knows whom else, if it meant not having to lift a finger against Putin. Not a good look my dude. This is why Poland has been so supportive of Ukraine. They know this (one could say they are learning from previous experiences).
tiahura 3y ago
Are there predominately ethnically Russian regions in Germany or France on their border with Russia? I think Berlin and Paris are fine for the foreseeable future.
- Scea91 3y ago
  World borders would look quite different if they were based on majority language. Would you redraw them all? Also, do you not consider anything east of Germany part of Europe? Wouldn’t you be worried if you were Finland or one of the Baltic states?
  - developer93 3y ago
    Also I find it hard to believe that Putin wouldn't come up with another excuse after that one ran out.. Did you see the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics ?
apwell23 3y ago
> How Europe doesn’t see Ukraine’s invasion as an existential threat is beyond me. Weren't we told that the whole war is about food exports from ukraine which euro countries like germany depend on. Is the 'food is new oil' narrative not well accepted. Places like usa cannot export to germany because farmland and rivers have been poisoned by gylphosate
- throwaway5959 3y ago
  “Poisoned by glyphosate” Fine starve then? I think most reasonable people would eat food from America over starving.
  - apwell23 3y ago
    most ppl aren't germans. Germany banned glyphosate.
    - johncearls 3y ago
      And irony of ironies, Bayer, a German company, purchased Monsanto and is currently stuck with the bill from all the people harmed by glyphosate. Reality is stranger than fiction.
- pantalaimon 3y ago
  EU has very strong agriculture subsidies, it certainly does not rely on food imports for basic goods.
  - developer93 3y ago
    The whole European food mountain was a thing. And we're still wasting plenty of food, we're not going to starve any time soon.
Joeri 3y ago
How exactly do you see Russia as an existential threat to the EU? Putin does not seem interested in conquering the EU, at all. He’s never mentioned anything of the sort that I know of, and he’s not the guy to mince words about his intentions. He’s not even really interested in conquering all of Ukraine, because he did not at any time mobilize the kind of force that would be needed for such an endeavor. I mean, yes, Russia’s nukes are an existential threat, but to the whole planet, not just the EU.

by elteto 3y ago

api 3y ago

If isolationists like Trump come to power in the US and do things like pull out of NATO, Europe might be suddenly in serious trouble. This is not a far fetched possibility. Even if Trump loses or isn’t even on the ticket, an increasing number of younger Americans are opposed to overseas involvements including some on the left side of the spectrum. Ballooning US national debt interest and social security issues could force the US to make steep cuts in places like military and overseas aid.

Jerrrry 3y ago
[flagged]
simion314 3y ago
You need to remind those americans that Europe buys a lot of military crap from USA, pulling from NATO might cost USA more, and frankly Europe had a lot to pay from USA operations around the world by sending peace keeprs there or by having to handle the refuges. I would be that pulling from NATO will not make those military money be moved into healthcare, I heard this story with Brexit.
- FredPret 3y ago
  European nations might buy a lot of hardware from the States, but the US also maintains a large and very expensive military presence there, and everywhere. So if military relations cool down, the US pulls out of Europe, and Europe exclusively buys its own arms, it might actually save the US money. But that seems a little far-fetched. There's a lot of transatlantic banter on the internet but when the chips are down, the West will likely pull together yet again.
  - mcpackieh 3y ago
    Culling American military bases overseas would also reduce the risk of American politicians capriciously choosing to use those military bases as the staging points for military adventurism; the "War on Terror" was greatly facilitated by those bases. As somebody who thinks that 'war' was a disaster for the interests of average Americans, I would not be sad to see the means for America to wage foreign wars greatly diminished. I simply don't trust the American political system to be a responsible steward of that much global military power.
    - FredPret 3y ago
      You may be right, but who else would do it? I feel like Russia would be invading the entire EU, and China would invade Taiwan if they thought they could get away with it.
      - mcpackieh 3y ago
        Countries should be left to handle their own affairs; that's the responsibility that is inherent to sovereignty. The premise of a global hegemon who babysits the world and enforces the rules (dictated by themselves and their allies of course) is an anachronistic leftover from the age of imperialism. If the rest of the world wants America to play world police (and for the most part, I don't believe they do) let them pay the American public for this service.
        FredPret 3y ago
        Very reasonable, but the last time an American president suggested this, the world shouted him down as an idiot.
        MerManMaid 3y ago
        In a world where we have 9 nuclear powers, I struggle to see how your system would keep them in check; nuclear fallout effects all of humanity and quite literally could make the planet inhabitable. I bring this up because any system that replaces the current world order needs to be able to keep these nuclear powers in check.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  > You need to remind those americans that Europe buys a lot of military crap from USA, pulling from NATO might cost USA more, and frankly Europe had a lot to pay from USA operations around the world by sending peace keeprs there or by having to handle the refuges. Since when do populists make decisions based on logic and long term outcomes? It wouldn’t be weird for an American leader like Trump to act irrationally, he doesn’t even need support from most Americans to execute his whimsy.
- witherk 3y ago
  Seems that we are assuming that net number of refugees is greater because of US action. I have no idea how this calculus is done though.
fullspectrumdev 3y ago
If the US wants to end Pax Americana, a strategy that has served the US extremely well, that’s on them in the end - it’s their choice. They shouldn’t be surprised though when it leads to losing out on a lot of trade, loss of influence, etc.

xcv123 3y ago

[flagged]

pegasus 3y ago
Seems naive to me. For one, countries have committed suicide before. And Putin has repeatedly claimed that Ukraine is not a real country, that it's a part of his country lured away by the West. I'm pretty sure his ideal scenario is for Ukraine to return to Russia and the countries of the Warsaw Pact to return under Russia's sphere of influence. Remember, Austria used to be the buffer state in those days.
- xcv123 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - simion314 3y ago
    This is Kremlin propaganda, from their perspective all eastern European countries are brainwashed by CIA to want in EU and NATO, most Russian actually believe that is not possible that their neighbors actually dislike Russia and want in EU. I can confirm to you that Russia is heavily working on preventing Moldova to enter EU and this is not an existential problem from Russia, they just want to extend their sphere of influence back in eastern Europe because they believe Russia is a super power like USA and they demand their right as a super power to get East Europe back.
    - xcv123 3y ago
      US invasion of Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, etc, is an historical reality. Not Kremlin propaganda. I am just observing and thinking independently. Ukraine obviously became aligned with the US/NATO side before Russia invaded. > they just want to extend their sphere of influence back in eastern Europe because they believe Russia is a super power like USA and they demand their right as a super power to get East Europe back. This is too simplistic, almost childish. Neither the US or Russia are that simple.

uxp8u61q 3y ago

You must live in a bubble if you think that EU leaders don't see the invasion of Ukraine as an existential threat... Do you get all your news about what happens in Europe from HN?

edrxty 3y ago
Not OP but just going off the numbers, the US has been contributing more military aid than all other countries combined. I'm glad everyone is supporting them but a bunch of the European countries dragged their heels through the first several months of the war while the US was sending stuff by the ship load. I get that the US is one big war machine but it's not like the EU doesn't have anything to give, they just decided that their own territorial defense was more important even though any supplies would be going towards fighting the only threatening aggressor in the region.
- pantalaimon 3y ago
  I think the problem is that EU countries don't have much military themselves to begin with.
  - edrxty 3y ago
    They have a lot more than they're giving. Almost everything so far has been old models that were already replaced
- Strom 3y ago
  > just going off the numbers, the US has been contributing more military aid than all other countries combined The US has given the most in absolute numbers, but that's mostly a result of the fact that the US is by far the richest nation in absolute numbers. When you look at aid given to Ukraine as a percent of GDP [1] you won't find the US even in the top 10. Instead the biggest contributors are European nations that directly border Russia. Thus I don't think it's accurate to characterize the European countries as dragging their heels. That's more of a Germany thing. -- [1] https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/ https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-s...

tomp 3y ago

European here. Ukraine/Russia war is caused by disagreements between US/NATO and Russia. EU has nothing to do with it, and if US didn't involve itself with Europe or try to expand NATO, there wouldn't be any war. The chance of it spreading to the rest of Europe, except if EU countries attack Russia (or help Ukraine with too much weapons), is zero.

simion314 3y ago
We in eastern europe want in NATO, our Western European would sell us for Putin's gases.
- elteto 3y ago
  And he doesn’t realize that what keeps it from spreading to the rest of Europe is precisely NATO. So ironic.
tasubotadas 3y ago
[flagged]
elteto 3y ago
What I’m reading here, honestly, is that mainstream Europe would readily abandon Poland, Ukraine, Finland and who knows whom else, if it meant not having to lift a finger against Putin. Not a good look my dude. This is why Poland has been so supportive of Ukraine. They know this (one could say they are learning from previous experiences).

tiahura 3y ago

Are there predominately ethnically Russian regions in Germany or France on their border with Russia? I think Berlin and Paris are fine for the foreseeable future.

Scea91 3y ago
World borders would look quite different if they were based on majority language. Would you redraw them all? Also, do you not consider anything east of Germany part of Europe? Wouldn’t you be worried if you were Finland or one of the Baltic states?
- developer93 3y ago
  Also I find it hard to believe that Putin wouldn't come up with another excuse after that one ran out.. Did you see the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics ?

apwell23 3y ago

> How Europe doesn’t see Ukraine’s invasion as an existential threat is beyond me. Weren't we told that the whole war is about food exports from ukraine which euro countries like germany depend on. Is the 'food is new oil' narrative not well accepted. Places like usa cannot export to germany because farmland and rivers have been poisoned by gylphosate

throwaway5959 3y ago
“Poisoned by glyphosate” Fine starve then? I think most reasonable people would eat food from America over starving.
- apwell23 3y ago
  most ppl aren't germans. Germany banned glyphosate.
  - johncearls 3y ago
    And irony of ironies, Bayer, a German company, purchased Monsanto and is currently stuck with the bill from all the people harmed by glyphosate. Reality is stranger than fiction.
pantalaimon 3y ago
EU has very strong agriculture subsidies, it certainly does not rely on food imports for basic goods.
- developer93 3y ago
  The whole European food mountain was a thing. And we're still wasting plenty of food, we're not going to starve any time soon.

Joeri 3y ago

How exactly do you see Russia as an existential threat to the EU? Putin does not seem interested in conquering the EU, at all. He’s never mentioned anything of the sort that I know of, and he’s not the guy to mince words about his intentions. He’s not even really interested in conquering all of Ukraine, because he did not at any time mobilize the kind of force that would be needed for such an endeavor. I mean, yes, Russia’s nukes are an existential threat, but to the whole planet, not just the EU.