25 ms·

> Pro-Palestinian views outrank Pro-Israeli online by around 36 to 1 on TikTok and 8 to 1 on other online platforms. > If anything the skew within the platform

> Pro-Palestinian views outrank Pro-Israeli online by around 36 to 1 on TikTok and 8 to 1 on other online platforms. > If anything the skew within the platforms is to prioritize pro-palestinian views. That platforms prioritize one over the other is just one possible explanation. An alternative explanation is that more people already have those views. And it's dishonest to present one explanation and omit the other. Nothing inflames people like injustice.

mastazi 3y ago
I don't think that parent is suggesting that platforms are actively prioritising one over the other. I think they are saying that the composition of users of these apps skews one way rather than the other due to pre existing stances, and the fact that the apps are not available in some markets. As a result, certain views are prioritised as a byproduct of the fact that all modern social media apps have an algorithm that shows you more of what you already agree with, in order to maximise ad profits.
- KittenInABox 3y ago
  > I think they are saying that the composition of users of these apps skews one way rather than the other due to pre existing stances I think the notion that the vast chunk of Twitter or TikTok had a pre existing stance on Israel/Palestine before Oct 7 is kind of silly, imo? Before this I could scroll Twitter without seeing anything about Israel or Palestine for... idk. Weeks, months at a time. I'll maybe see one thing on Palestine being oppressed, usually about West Bank settlements, from the one or two people who happen to be Palestinian. Now I literally cannot avoid it whenever I open either app. I really struggle to believe anyone beyond a small minority even thought about Palestine or Israel before Oct 7.
  - michaelsbradley 3y ago
    > I really struggle to believe anyone beyond a small minority even thought about Palestine or Israel before Oct 7. I grew up in the 1980s and recall intense flareups on this subject matter for as long as I can remember. The arrival of the Web and social media simply amplified them.
    - toyg 3y ago
      This is the correct view. The Palestinian issue is a deeply-felt issue for a quarter of the world's population, give or take.
      - lotsofpulp 3y ago
        Are those population’s countries accepting Palestinian refugees?
        toyg 3y ago
        The palestinian diaspora at this point is basically worldwide, which is somewhat ironic considering who caused it. This has little to do with the actual point, though.
        lotsofpulp 3y ago
        My point is it is deeply felt up to the point of actual sacrifice, either in the form of lives waging a war on behalf of Palestinians, or in the form of money re-homing them.
        toyg 3y ago
        > My point is it is deeply felt up to the point of actual sacrifice Because otherwise it invalidates their opinion? So, are you ready to sacrifice yourself in the streets for Mr. Biden / Mr. Trump / Mr. Macron / Ms. LePen / etc etc, or to rehome the "victims" of their policies?
        lotsofpulp 3y ago
        >Because otherwise it invalidates their opinion? It provides some signal as to how “deeply” one (or a group) feels. >So, are you ready to sacrifice yourself in the streets for Mr. Biden / Mr. Trump / Mr. Macron / Ms. LePen / etc etc, or to rehome the "victims" of their policies? No, I do not deeply feel regarding this topic.
  - sjfjsjdjwvwvc 3y ago
    This conflict has been a huge thing since the 90s. I would argue the vast majority of people in the west had an opinion on that conflict.
    - smitty1e 3y ago
      Since 1948, when modern Israel was founded.
      - sabarn01 3y ago
        since the 1880's at least. The status of palistance was the cause for the crusades so I think we need to understand there is no resolution possible.
        __loam 3y ago
        I don't think the crusades are especially relevant to the current issues, other than they happened to happen in the same place. WWI and the defeat of the Ottomans is basically where the current situation arose from.
        busterarm 3y ago
        The specific place is important for historical reasons and there have been migrations of Jews back to the area (after being expelled from Spain/Portugal, etc) since the 1490s. The population was small, up to about 5% of the region during the Ottomans (after heavy losses due to multiple Black Plague outbreaks), but the reason that specific area was chosen (as opposed to alternatives) was because there was already a community of Jews there. Keep in mind that the vast majority of the area was uninhabited swamps until the 1940s and huge numbers of people died from malaria every year before resettling Jews completely changed the local terrain. Look up details about the the late 1880s and the distinctions marking the difference between the Old Yishuv and New Yishuv. Political aspirations of the Old Yishuv were pretty low due to the fact that they were broke as shit and depended on handouts from abroad, whereas New Yishuv resettlers came with money and dreams.
  - simonh 3y ago
    As OP pointed out, a billion Muslims is a lot of people. They may not have the palestinians at top of mind all the time, but a lot of them do at the moment.
    - hackyhacky 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - wolverine876 3y ago
        > none of them are taking Palestinian refugees They believe that Israel would like to drive out the refugees and seize their land, essentially putting an end to Palestinians in Israel. They believe that's what happened when Israel was founded and subsequently - there are still refugee camps, and a priority of Palestinians is the 'right of return' to their former lands - and with recent Jewish settlements in the West Bank, and specifically with Israeli actions in the West Bank since Oct 7. Essentially, they think refugees will never be allowed back. That doesn't mean they care, but without that issue resolved, they won't accept refugees. Also, probably they don't want to take on care and feeding of millions, and to simultaneously relieve Israel, their enemy, of that burden.
        hackyhacky 3y ago
        I agree with you that they have reason to believe that accepting refugees would play into Israel's hands. However, that fact alone is telling: they consider it more important to hurt Israel than to help Palestinians. If Arab nations actually care about Palestinian life as much as they say they do, they would prevent Palestinians from dying. By way of contrast: Poland took over 1.5 million Ukrainian refugees, despite the fact that most probably won't go back to Ukraine, and that depopulating eastern Ukraine helps Russia.
        wolverine876 3y ago
        They say they wouldn't be helping the Palestinians, creating yet more permanent refugees and the loss of their land. However, I will say that it's hard to say that the foreign government's choices should outweigh the self-determination of the Palestinians who could actually choose whetehr to leave or stay. I don't think they care nearly as much as they say they do. I think Hamas doubts it too; one reason for the attack was to stop Arab reconciliation with Israel that may have left Palestinians in the cold. The idea that they would care seems like a bit of prejudice - Americans and Europeans don't care about every refugee either, no matter where they're from or what they've done, especially these days.
  - matkoniecz 3y ago
    > I really struggle to believe anyone beyond a small minority even thought about Palestine or Israel before Oct 7. This appeared repeatedly as important news, sadly mostly due to wars and terrorism. Jerusalem relevance alone for multiple religions with its holy sites made it important topic for many.
    - TheOtherHobbes 3y ago
      People being aware of the issue isn't the same as the issue being their primary interest. Or even being in their top ten interests.
      - matkoniecz 3y ago
        I was responding to "I really struggle to believe anyone beyond a small minority even even thought about Palestine or Israel"
  - mastazi 3y ago
    I think you are underestimating the diversity of these global platforms. As an example, Turkey and Saudi Arabia are among the top 10 countries in terms of Twitter users. https://www.statista.com/statistics/242606/number-of-active-twitter-users-in-selected-countries/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/242606/number-of-active-...
  - catlover76 3y ago
    I think it's pretty unfair this person is being down voted. Yes, most Americans knew the conflict existed previous to this past October, but few who weren't Jewish or Muslim and/or Arab (I think most Arab Christians are generally/vaguely pro-Palestinian, but not sure) would have had strong opinions about it or been able to tell you much. I don't think the issue has ever featured this heavily in the US news cycle since oil embargoes in the 70s, and the issue is a lot more contentious now due to a few different factors. Right now, unless someone consumes zero news media and has very curated social media feeds, I don't see how they could avoid understanding this has all been a major geopolitical event that is continuing to unfold.
    - michaelsbradley 3y ago
      > few…would have had strong opinions about it or been able to tell you much That’s simply incorrect. Extensive news coverage of the flareups I referred to led to the subject matter becoming a common topic of conversation and public interest. Heck, I remember there being conversations and debates about it among kids in my school’s cafeteria, and that was in a part of the US where at the time way less than 1% of the population was Jewish or Muslim.
  - Macha 3y ago
    > I really struggle to believe anyone beyond a small minority even thought about Palestine or Israel before Oct 7. It has been a relatively prominent issue in Ireland, and especially Northern Ireland for some time. You can find plenty of images over the years of republican murals with Palestinian flags on them (e.g. 10 years ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/comments/189yeg/one_struggle_a_belfast_mural_expressing/ https://www.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/comments/189yeg/o... ), or conversely unionist bonfires with palestinean flags on it: (e.g. last year https://nitter.dafriser.be/M_AndersonSF/status/1542523209311846406#m https://nitter.dafriser.be/M_AndersonSF/status/1542523209311... )
- instaeloq 3y ago
  I think your interpretation is wrong. OP stated: "If anything the skew within the platforms is to prioritize pro-palestinian views". They're explicitly stating that they believe pro-palestinian views are prioritized.
  - mastazi 3y ago
    I don't see how that quote from OP is incompatible with my point, please explain > They're explicitly stating that they believe pro-palestinian views are prioritized. I'm also saying that they are prioritised, here is a sentence from my previous comment: > As a result, certain views are prioritised
  - Affric 3y ago
    > “If anything” This is an important clause here. It means that they do not believe that pro-Israel views are prioritised but __if__ any it is the case that there are prioritised views are pro-Palestinian views. Now, you could argue that this is a bad faith rhetorical device but it is not “explicitly stating that they believe pro-Palestinian views are prioritised”.
    - xkekjrktllss 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - nostrebored 3y ago
        [flagged]
  - IOT_Apprentice 3y ago
    Prioritized in what exact way? You are fed what you are interested in and like, on TikTok. It is easy to read yourself of topics or content you are uninterested in or dislike.
    - Invictus0 3y ago
      Make a brand new account and visit TikTok. You will be shown lots of pro Palestinian content
- lossolo 3y ago
  The majority of the world is against Israel's occupation of Palestine, a stance that is reflected in numerous UN General Assembly votes. Holding a pro-Israel position in this context represents a very US centric view, which is not similarly echoed in the rest of the world.
  - xkekjrktllss 3y ago
    >The majority of the world is against Israel's occupation of Palestine The majority of the global ruling class is for Israel's occupation of Palestine. History is incomprehensible if we ignore class conflict.
    - nostrebored 3y ago
      Can you define who the global ruling class is?
  - underdeserver 3y ago
    No, the majority of the world is against Israel's occupation of the West Bank, and until 2005 when Israel left Gaza, its occupation of Gaza. The October 7th attack was carried out against civilians in their homes living on land that is internationally recognized as Israel by an overwhelming majority of countries.
    - lossolo 3y ago
      > No, the majority of the world is against Israel's occupation of the West Bank, and until 2005 when Israel left Gaza, its occupation of Gaza. I'm not sure what you are opposing. I wrote that majority of the world is against Israel's occupation. And it's not only West Bank, this is map showing all the lands occupied by Israel with timeline https://i.stack.imgur.com/0xM5P.jpg https://i.stack.imgur.com/0xM5P.jpg > The October 7th attack was carried out against civilians in their homes living on land that is internationally recognized as Israel by an overwhelming majority of countries. Pro Palestine doesn't mean pro Hamas or pro terrorist. Here is another general assembly vote, from 26th October where majority of the world voted differently than Israel, and in favor of Palestine: https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/10/1142847 https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/10/1142847
azinman2 3y ago
And where do you think that comes from? Some coherent well researched culturally deep understanding of history and the current status of things by the entire population? Of course not, it’s propaganda. There are ethnic conflicts worldwide that often have more bloodshed, many occurring simultaneously right now, but this gets all the rhetoric and attention.
- bluefishinit 3y ago
  If you watch some of the content in question you’ll see that it actually is often in-depth analysis of history done by younger people. I’ve seen many clips discussing Nakba and the right of return for instance.
  - azinman2 3y ago
    To understand today you need thousands of years of history, both to understand where the Palestinian people came from (other empires moving them around) as well as the Israeli claims of nativism. Then layer on larger subtexts of the history of Jews and genocide/persecution, the refusal of refugees during WWII, the losing side of the Arabs in WWII, the roles of France/UK in the Middle East, on top of the roles of the Egyptians/Jordanians/Ottoman Empire, Roman Empire, etc etc etc etc etc etc. I seriously doubt these videos are actually “in depth” in the require way if they simply start 70 years. I’ve also seen many videos myself and there’s zero depth and pure one sidedness, much of the pro-Palestinian content predicated on a dismissal of Zionism as racist but hypocritically an acceptance of all other 1st nation claims as well as the tactic acceptance of Hamas with its theocratic & genocidal goals.
    - jfioefr 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - azinman2 3y ago
        As if the Jews aren’t native to Israel!? Your statement alone is dripping with bias and a perfect illustration of how non-nuance the discussion is.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
nomoreusernames 3y ago
[dead]
Terr_ 3y ago
> An alternative explanation is that more people already have those views. Treading a fine line here between Bayesian priors and stereotypes, but the worldwide Muslim/Jewish population split is something like 112:1. Obviously that's not going to be the same proportion on a given media-service, but it should still inform our expectations of what is the "default" state before theorizing about platform algorithm-tweaking or propaganda-campaigns.
- ToucanLoucan 3y ago
  This also presumes that any Muslim will be pro-Palestine and any Jewish person would be pro-Israel, a pretty strong statement given that entire communities within Israel are staunchly opposed to their ongoing actions against Hamas, which increasingly seem to be actually against Palestinian people, whom themselves also have a wide and diverse set of opinions about Hamas. The war is shockingly unpopular on both sides of itself and seemingly the only people who are in favor of Israel's current plan of action is the Israeli government and the people who, for PR reasons, refuse to criticize Israel since Israel has done such an excellent job propagandizing people into thinking being anti-Israel in any way is synonymous with being anti-Semetic.
  - zone411 3y ago
    > have a wide and diverse set of opinions about Hamas 75% of Palestinians "support the military operation carried out by the Palestinian resistance led by Hamas on October 7th." 76% have positive views of Hamas (other armed terrorist groups have even larger support). https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20Opinion%20Poll%20-%20Gaza%20War%202023%20-%20Tables%20of%20Results.pdf https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20...
    - bjourne 3y ago
      I really wish people would stop citing pollsters with no pedigree. What is the Arab World for Research & Development? Who is funding them? Who is conducting their polls? Who staffs them? Are their results reliable?
brailsafe 3y ago
The alternative explanation seems unlikely. I'd think that if it were true, there'd be even one single instance of that having come up in conversation prior to bad graffiti and printed propaganda showing up all over my neighborhood. Getting a glimpse of what people allow themselves to be subjected to on the various platforms seems to indicate it's younger, easily influenced, volatile reactionary people suddenly being inflamed by whatever hot conflict of the day it is; people I wouldn't normally talk to anyway and who wouldn't have any authentic connection with it. The only time it's come up in real life was when I bumped into some Israeli guests at a hostel, and they were talking about what their families were going through and whether they'd have to go back and serve. It doesn't come up on my Instagram presumably because I had previously unfollowed everyone who posted about whatever other injustice they'd been told to be pissed about, and shockingly I don't feel the need to go and vandalize property to spread the word.
- digging 3y ago
  You've specifically isolated yourself from people who would talk about the issue, so you're not in a position to determine whether or not people have been talking about it. In my social circles, the conversation about injustice in Palestine is over a decade old.
  - sertbdfgbnfgsd 3y ago
    > In my social circles, the conversation about injustice in Palestine is over a decade old. Indeed, I would say that anyone older than 10 has participated in such conversations. The person you're responding to makes it sound like it's a new thing.
    - brailsafe 3y ago
      It's clearly not a new thing, and it's clearly something that people should have likely been vaguely aware of for decades, but it's not really important for anyone not directly connected to the conflict, territory, or heritage to be actively concerned with on a moment to moment basis, and it's not something that's ever organically come up, at least beyond acknowledgement that some conflict is always happening. That's not to say it hasn't come up in any circle, but it does seem to be a suspiciously recent topic, and I'd simply argue that people tend to subject themselves to arbitrary issues to be consumed by regardless of the bearing it has their life, and largely influenced by media. When I had the conversation about it in real life, I expressed sympathy and discussed a few aspects that they informed me of since I hadn't heard about the instigating attack, and then I went on about my life, thankful that my family and nobody I know personally is on either side.
sabarn01 3y ago
There is an ocean of injustice in the world and this one issue causes more anger than many that are equally abhorrent.
- TillE 3y ago
  It's one of very very few issues where America and most of the west have stood firmly in support of violence and oppression for decades, even on issues like settlements where the US formally acknowledges the illegality and takes no action. Of course people care primarily about the actions of their own democratically elected government, that's the whole point. There's no need to protest when people agree with their government.
  - sabarn01 3y ago
    Settlements are of course wrong, but I don't really see any concrete action that Israel could take other than removing settlements. Even if they did that the fundamental facts on the ground wouldn't change. I don't see how they lift the blockade and any 2 state solution seems a nonstarter.
    - thelock85 3y ago
      The Israeli govt can and should halt establishing new settlements or expanding existing settlements, especially when expansion is zero-sum with further displacement (e.g. Hebron). It can also enforce the criminality of extrajudicial settler violence. Agreed any real solutions are a nonstarter in current situation, but a lack of imagination or will about how to move forward just further normalizes the illegality of it all.
    - instaeloq 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - sabarn01 3y ago
        If I'm Israel as long as Hamas controls Gaza I would support a blockade. If Hamas formally accepts a 2 state solution then I would change my opinion, but as it stands now the Israeli government has a responsibility to protect its citizen which to mean means limiting the ability of Hamas to acquire weapons.
toss1 3y ago
If you want to start counting drivers, there are at least three 1) The algorithms of the platforms 2) The disinformation / astroturfing / asymetric warfare, driven from Russia, Iran, CCP, and many other 'interested parties' 3) The actual organic opinions The drivers are in about that order of force. The point of #2 is to make it appear organic, so people can make the argument that 'it's just people's opinion', even when it is wrong.
- xkekjrktllss 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - toss1 3y ago
    This has zero to do with "western ruling class" This is about authoritarians starting and driving a global war on democracy. Russia => Iran => Qatar =>Hamas. Why do you think Hamas leaders and Iranian leaders met in Moscow in mid-October? Gaza is opening a 2nd front on the Ukranian war. Putin & Russian officials have repeatedly stated that they think it is their right to rule at least the entire Soviet and Iron Curtain territory. Russian media is openly cheering the Republicans for blocking Ukraine aid. But you can go right on believing the shrill propaganda, as if Hamas was some kind of organic protest movement (they are not, they are terrorist occupiers of Palestine). Just be sure you enjoy it when you no longer have a vote that counts after autocrats take over in your country, as they already have in Iran, Gaza, Hungary, etc.
    - xkekjrktllss 3y ago
      The Israeli government literally funds Hamas: https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up... This is because Netanyahu and Hamas both oppose a peaceful resolution. Hamas =/= Palestinian people. However, if your family's home is taken from you by Israel and your family members are killed by Israeli forces, you will vote for anyone most capable of fighting back, and Israel's funding means Hamas is most capable. >Just be sure you enjoy it when you no longer have a vote that counts I am from the US. My vote is useless. No party or candidate representing my interests can run, much less win.
samatman 3y ago
A platform with a proprietary algorithm which ranks and boosts content does not get the benefit of doubt. They are per se responsible for what people see. If pro-Palestinian views are on TikTok at 36:1, that's what TikTok wants, they could easily promote content at a different ratio.
dralley 3y ago
I'm not sure that fully explains it. There is incredible amounts of anti-Israel disinformation as well, that would be easily debunked with a reverse image search if anyone could be bothered. https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2023/10/11/hamas-attacks-israel-bombs-gaza-and-misinformation-surges-online/ https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2023/10/11/hamas-attacks-isr... https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2023/12/08/images-of-syrian-civil-war-take-on-a-second-life-in-gaza-conflict/ https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2023/12/08/images-of-syrian-...
scythe 3y ago
The simple explanation is that the "Free Palestine" posters just post more. If you look at Internet posts, you'll find a lot of people talking about being vegan, even though vegans are vanishingly rare in real life. Practically every American media outlet that isn't explicitly socialist expresses more sympathy for Israel than Palestine, so people holding contrary views may feel the need to voice them more acutely.

mastazi 3y ago

I don't think that parent is suggesting that platforms are actively prioritising one over the other. I think they are saying that the composition of users of these apps skews one way rather than the other due to pre existing stances, and the fact that the apps are not available in some markets. As a result, certain views are prioritised as a byproduct of the fact that all modern social media apps have an algorithm that shows you more of what you already agree with, in order to maximise ad profits.

KittenInABox 3y ago
> I think they are saying that the composition of users of these apps skews one way rather than the other due to pre existing stances I think the notion that the vast chunk of Twitter or TikTok had a pre existing stance on Israel/Palestine before Oct 7 is kind of silly, imo? Before this I could scroll Twitter without seeing anything about Israel or Palestine for... idk. Weeks, months at a time. I'll maybe see one thing on Palestine being oppressed, usually about West Bank settlements, from the one or two people who happen to be Palestinian. Now I literally cannot avoid it whenever I open either app. I really struggle to believe anyone beyond a small minority even thought about Palestine or Israel before Oct 7.
- michaelsbradley 3y ago
  > I really struggle to believe anyone beyond a small minority even thought about Palestine or Israel before Oct 7. I grew up in the 1980s and recall intense flareups on this subject matter for as long as I can remember. The arrival of the Web and social media simply amplified them.
  - toyg 3y ago
    This is the correct view. The Palestinian issue is a deeply-felt issue for a quarter of the world's population, give or take.
    - lotsofpulp 3y ago
      Are those population’s countries accepting Palestinian refugees?
      - toyg 3y ago
        The palestinian diaspora at this point is basically worldwide, which is somewhat ironic considering who caused it. This has little to do with the actual point, though.
        lotsofpulp 3y ago
        My point is it is deeply felt up to the point of actual sacrifice, either in the form of lives waging a war on behalf of Palestinians, or in the form of money re-homing them.
        toyg 3y ago
        > My point is it is deeply felt up to the point of actual sacrifice Because otherwise it invalidates their opinion? So, are you ready to sacrifice yourself in the streets for Mr. Biden / Mr. Trump / Mr. Macron / Ms. LePen / etc etc, or to rehome the "victims" of their policies?
        lotsofpulp 3y ago
        >Because otherwise it invalidates their opinion? It provides some signal as to how “deeply” one (or a group) feels. >So, are you ready to sacrifice yourself in the streets for Mr. Biden / Mr. Trump / Mr. Macron / Ms. LePen / etc etc, or to rehome the "victims" of their policies? No, I do not deeply feel regarding this topic.
- sjfjsjdjwvwvc 3y ago
  This conflict has been a huge thing since the 90s. I would argue the vast majority of people in the west had an opinion on that conflict.
  - smitty1e 3y ago
    Since 1948, when modern Israel was founded.
    - sabarn01 3y ago
      since the 1880's at least. The status of palistance was the cause for the crusades so I think we need to understand there is no resolution possible.
      - __loam 3y ago
        I don't think the crusades are especially relevant to the current issues, other than they happened to happen in the same place. WWI and the defeat of the Ottomans is basically where the current situation arose from.
        busterarm 3y ago
        The specific place is important for historical reasons and there have been migrations of Jews back to the area (after being expelled from Spain/Portugal, etc) since the 1490s. The population was small, up to about 5% of the region during the Ottomans (after heavy losses due to multiple Black Plague outbreaks), but the reason that specific area was chosen (as opposed to alternatives) was because there was already a community of Jews there. Keep in mind that the vast majority of the area was uninhabited swamps until the 1940s and huge numbers of people died from malaria every year before resettling Jews completely changed the local terrain. Look up details about the the late 1880s and the distinctions marking the difference between the Old Yishuv and New Yishuv. Political aspirations of the Old Yishuv were pretty low due to the fact that they were broke as shit and depended on handouts from abroad, whereas New Yishuv resettlers came with money and dreams.
- simonh 3y ago
  As OP pointed out, a billion Muslims is a lot of people. They may not have the palestinians at top of mind all the time, but a lot of them do at the moment.
  - hackyhacky 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - wolverine876 3y ago
      > none of them are taking Palestinian refugees They believe that Israel would like to drive out the refugees and seize their land, essentially putting an end to Palestinians in Israel. They believe that's what happened when Israel was founded and subsequently - there are still refugee camps, and a priority of Palestinians is the 'right of return' to their former lands - and with recent Jewish settlements in the West Bank, and specifically with Israeli actions in the West Bank since Oct 7. Essentially, they think refugees will never be allowed back. That doesn't mean they care, but without that issue resolved, they won't accept refugees. Also, probably they don't want to take on care and feeding of millions, and to simultaneously relieve Israel, their enemy, of that burden.
      - hackyhacky 3y ago
        I agree with you that they have reason to believe that accepting refugees would play into Israel's hands. However, that fact alone is telling: they consider it more important to hurt Israel than to help Palestinians. If Arab nations actually care about Palestinian life as much as they say they do, they would prevent Palestinians from dying. By way of contrast: Poland took over 1.5 million Ukrainian refugees, despite the fact that most probably won't go back to Ukraine, and that depopulating eastern Ukraine helps Russia.
        wolverine876 3y ago
        They say they wouldn't be helping the Palestinians, creating yet more permanent refugees and the loss of their land. However, I will say that it's hard to say that the foreign government's choices should outweigh the self-determination of the Palestinians who could actually choose whetehr to leave or stay. I don't think they care nearly as much as they say they do. I think Hamas doubts it too; one reason for the attack was to stop Arab reconciliation with Israel that may have left Palestinians in the cold. The idea that they would care seems like a bit of prejudice - Americans and Europeans don't care about every refugee either, no matter where they're from or what they've done, especially these days.
- matkoniecz 3y ago
  > I really struggle to believe anyone beyond a small minority even thought about Palestine or Israel before Oct 7. This appeared repeatedly as important news, sadly mostly due to wars and terrorism. Jerusalem relevance alone for multiple religions with its holy sites made it important topic for many.
  - TheOtherHobbes 3y ago
    People being aware of the issue isn't the same as the issue being their primary interest. Or even being in their top ten interests.
    - matkoniecz 3y ago
      I was responding to "I really struggle to believe anyone beyond a small minority even even thought about Palestine or Israel"
- mastazi 3y ago
  I think you are underestimating the diversity of these global platforms. As an example, Turkey and Saudi Arabia are among the top 10 countries in terms of Twitter users. https://www.statista.com/statistics/242606/number-of-active-twitter-users-in-selected-countries/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/242606/number-of-active-...
- catlover76 3y ago
  I think it's pretty unfair this person is being down voted. Yes, most Americans knew the conflict existed previous to this past October, but few who weren't Jewish or Muslim and/or Arab (I think most Arab Christians are generally/vaguely pro-Palestinian, but not sure) would have had strong opinions about it or been able to tell you much. I don't think the issue has ever featured this heavily in the US news cycle since oil embargoes in the 70s, and the issue is a lot more contentious now due to a few different factors. Right now, unless someone consumes zero news media and has very curated social media feeds, I don't see how they could avoid understanding this has all been a major geopolitical event that is continuing to unfold.
  - michaelsbradley 3y ago
    > few…would have had strong opinions about it or been able to tell you much That’s simply incorrect. Extensive news coverage of the flareups I referred to led to the subject matter becoming a common topic of conversation and public interest. Heck, I remember there being conversations and debates about it among kids in my school’s cafeteria, and that was in a part of the US where at the time way less than 1% of the population was Jewish or Muslim.
- Macha 3y ago
  > I really struggle to believe anyone beyond a small minority even thought about Palestine or Israel before Oct 7. It has been a relatively prominent issue in Ireland, and especially Northern Ireland for some time. You can find plenty of images over the years of republican murals with Palestinian flags on them (e.g. 10 years ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/comments/189yeg/one_struggle_a_belfast_mural_expressing/ https://www.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/comments/189yeg/o... ), or conversely unionist bonfires with palestinean flags on it: (e.g. last year https://nitter.dafriser.be/M_AndersonSF/status/1542523209311846406#m https://nitter.dafriser.be/M_AndersonSF/status/1542523209311... )
instaeloq 3y ago
I think your interpretation is wrong. OP stated: "If anything the skew within the platforms is to prioritize pro-palestinian views". They're explicitly stating that they believe pro-palestinian views are prioritized.
- mastazi 3y ago
  I don't see how that quote from OP is incompatible with my point, please explain > They're explicitly stating that they believe pro-palestinian views are prioritized. I'm also saying that they are prioritised, here is a sentence from my previous comment: > As a result, certain views are prioritised
- Affric 3y ago
  > “If anything” This is an important clause here. It means that they do not believe that pro-Israel views are prioritised but __if__ any it is the case that there are prioritised views are pro-Palestinian views. Now, you could argue that this is a bad faith rhetorical device but it is not “explicitly stating that they believe pro-Palestinian views are prioritised”.
  - xkekjrktllss 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - nostrebored 3y ago
      [flagged]
- IOT_Apprentice 3y ago
  Prioritized in what exact way? You are fed what you are interested in and like, on TikTok. It is easy to read yourself of topics or content you are uninterested in or dislike.
  - Invictus0 3y ago
    Make a brand new account and visit TikTok. You will be shown lots of pro Palestinian content
lossolo 3y ago
The majority of the world is against Israel's occupation of Palestine, a stance that is reflected in numerous UN General Assembly votes. Holding a pro-Israel position in this context represents a very US centric view, which is not similarly echoed in the rest of the world.
- xkekjrktllss 3y ago
  >The majority of the world is against Israel's occupation of Palestine The majority of the global ruling class is for Israel's occupation of Palestine. History is incomprehensible if we ignore class conflict.
  - nostrebored 3y ago
    Can you define who the global ruling class is?
- underdeserver 3y ago
  No, the majority of the world is against Israel's occupation of the West Bank, and until 2005 when Israel left Gaza, its occupation of Gaza. The October 7th attack was carried out against civilians in their homes living on land that is internationally recognized as Israel by an overwhelming majority of countries.
  - lossolo 3y ago
    > No, the majority of the world is against Israel's occupation of the West Bank, and until 2005 when Israel left Gaza, its occupation of Gaza. I'm not sure what you are opposing. I wrote that majority of the world is against Israel's occupation. And it's not only West Bank, this is map showing all the lands occupied by Israel with timeline https://i.stack.imgur.com/0xM5P.jpg https://i.stack.imgur.com/0xM5P.jpg > The October 7th attack was carried out against civilians in their homes living on land that is internationally recognized as Israel by an overwhelming majority of countries. Pro Palestine doesn't mean pro Hamas or pro terrorist. Here is another general assembly vote, from 26th October where majority of the world voted differently than Israel, and in favor of Palestine: https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/10/1142847 https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/10/1142847

azinman2 3y ago

And where do you think that comes from? Some coherent well researched culturally deep understanding of history and the current status of things by the entire population? Of course not, it’s propaganda. There are ethnic conflicts worldwide that often have more bloodshed, many occurring simultaneously right now, but this gets all the rhetoric and attention.

bluefishinit 3y ago
If you watch some of the content in question you’ll see that it actually is often in-depth analysis of history done by younger people. I’ve seen many clips discussing Nakba and the right of return for instance.
- azinman2 3y ago
  To understand today you need thousands of years of history, both to understand where the Palestinian people came from (other empires moving them around) as well as the Israeli claims of nativism. Then layer on larger subtexts of the history of Jews and genocide/persecution, the refusal of refugees during WWII, the losing side of the Arabs in WWII, the roles of France/UK in the Middle East, on top of the roles of the Egyptians/Jordanians/Ottoman Empire, Roman Empire, etc etc etc etc etc etc. I seriously doubt these videos are actually “in depth” in the require way if they simply start 70 years. I’ve also seen many videos myself and there’s zero depth and pure one sidedness, much of the pro-Palestinian content predicated on a dismissal of Zionism as racist but hypocritically an acceptance of all other 1st nation claims as well as the tactic acceptance of Hamas with its theocratic & genocidal goals.
  - jfioefr 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - azinman2 3y ago
      As if the Jews aren’t native to Israel!? Your statement alone is dripping with bias and a perfect illustration of how non-nuance the discussion is.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

nomoreusernames 3y ago

[dead]

Terr_ 3y ago

> An alternative explanation is that more people already have those views. Treading a fine line here between Bayesian priors and stereotypes, but the worldwide Muslim/Jewish population split is something like 112:1. Obviously that's not going to be the same proportion on a given media-service, but it should still inform our expectations of what is the "default" state before theorizing about platform algorithm-tweaking or propaganda-campaigns.

ToucanLoucan 3y ago
This also presumes that any Muslim will be pro-Palestine and any Jewish person would be pro-Israel, a pretty strong statement given that entire communities within Israel are staunchly opposed to their ongoing actions against Hamas, which increasingly seem to be actually against Palestinian people, whom themselves also have a wide and diverse set of opinions about Hamas. The war is shockingly unpopular on both sides of itself and seemingly the only people who are in favor of Israel's current plan of action is the Israeli government and the people who, for PR reasons, refuse to criticize Israel since Israel has done such an excellent job propagandizing people into thinking being anti-Israel in any way is synonymous with being anti-Semetic.
- zone411 3y ago
  > have a wide and diverse set of opinions about Hamas 75% of Palestinians "support the military operation carried out by the Palestinian resistance led by Hamas on October 7th." 76% have positive views of Hamas (other armed terrorist groups have even larger support). https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20Opinion%20Poll%20-%20Gaza%20War%202023%20-%20Tables%20of%20Results.pdf https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20...
  - bjourne 3y ago
    I really wish people would stop citing pollsters with no pedigree. What is the Arab World for Research & Development? Who is funding them? Who is conducting their polls? Who staffs them? Are their results reliable?

brailsafe 3y ago

The alternative explanation seems unlikely. I'd think that if it were true, there'd be even one single instance of that having come up in conversation prior to bad graffiti and printed propaganda showing up all over my neighborhood. Getting a glimpse of what people allow themselves to be subjected to on the various platforms seems to indicate it's younger, easily influenced, volatile reactionary people suddenly being inflamed by whatever hot conflict of the day it is; people I wouldn't normally talk to anyway and who wouldn't have any authentic connection with it. The only time it's come up in real life was when I bumped into some Israeli guests at a hostel, and they were talking about what their families were going through and whether they'd have to go back and serve. It doesn't come up on my Instagram presumably because I had previously unfollowed everyone who posted about whatever other injustice they'd been told to be pissed about, and shockingly I don't feel the need to go and vandalize property to spread the word.

digging 3y ago
You've specifically isolated yourself from people who would talk about the issue, so you're not in a position to determine whether or not people have been talking about it. In my social circles, the conversation about injustice in Palestine is over a decade old.
- sertbdfgbnfgsd 3y ago
  > In my social circles, the conversation about injustice in Palestine is over a decade old. Indeed, I would say that anyone older than 10 has participated in such conversations. The person you're responding to makes it sound like it's a new thing.
  - brailsafe 3y ago
    It's clearly not a new thing, and it's clearly something that people should have likely been vaguely aware of for decades, but it's not really important for anyone not directly connected to the conflict, territory, or heritage to be actively concerned with on a moment to moment basis, and it's not something that's ever organically come up, at least beyond acknowledgement that some conflict is always happening. That's not to say it hasn't come up in any circle, but it does seem to be a suspiciously recent topic, and I'd simply argue that people tend to subject themselves to arbitrary issues to be consumed by regardless of the bearing it has their life, and largely influenced by media. When I had the conversation about it in real life, I expressed sympathy and discussed a few aspects that they informed me of since I hadn't heard about the instigating attack, and then I went on about my life, thankful that my family and nobody I know personally is on either side.

sabarn01 3y ago

There is an ocean of injustice in the world and this one issue causes more anger than many that are equally abhorrent.

TillE 3y ago
It's one of very very few issues where America and most of the west have stood firmly in support of violence and oppression for decades, even on issues like settlements where the US formally acknowledges the illegality and takes no action. Of course people care primarily about the actions of their own democratically elected government, that's the whole point. There's no need to protest when people agree with their government.
- sabarn01 3y ago
  Settlements are of course wrong, but I don't really see any concrete action that Israel could take other than removing settlements. Even if they did that the fundamental facts on the ground wouldn't change. I don't see how they lift the blockade and any 2 state solution seems a nonstarter.
  - thelock85 3y ago
    The Israeli govt can and should halt establishing new settlements or expanding existing settlements, especially when expansion is zero-sum with further displacement (e.g. Hebron). It can also enforce the criminality of extrajudicial settler violence. Agreed any real solutions are a nonstarter in current situation, but a lack of imagination or will about how to move forward just further normalizes the illegality of it all.
  - instaeloq 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - sabarn01 3y ago
      If I'm Israel as long as Hamas controls Gaza I would support a blockade. If Hamas formally accepts a 2 state solution then I would change my opinion, but as it stands now the Israeli government has a responsibility to protect its citizen which to mean means limiting the ability of Hamas to acquire weapons.

toss1 3y ago

If you want to start counting drivers, there are at least three 1) The algorithms of the platforms 2) The disinformation / astroturfing / asymetric warfare, driven from Russia, Iran, CCP, and many other 'interested parties' 3) The actual organic opinions The drivers are in about that order of force. The point of #2 is to make it appear organic, so people can make the argument that 'it's just people's opinion', even when it is wrong.

xkekjrktllss 3y ago
[flagged]
- toss1 3y ago
  This has zero to do with "western ruling class" This is about authoritarians starting and driving a global war on democracy. Russia => Iran => Qatar =>Hamas. Why do you think Hamas leaders and Iranian leaders met in Moscow in mid-October? Gaza is opening a 2nd front on the Ukranian war. Putin & Russian officials have repeatedly stated that they think it is their right to rule at least the entire Soviet and Iron Curtain territory. Russian media is openly cheering the Republicans for blocking Ukraine aid. But you can go right on believing the shrill propaganda, as if Hamas was some kind of organic protest movement (they are not, they are terrorist occupiers of Palestine). Just be sure you enjoy it when you no longer have a vote that counts after autocrats take over in your country, as they already have in Iran, Gaza, Hungary, etc.
  - xkekjrktllss 3y ago
    The Israeli government literally funds Hamas: https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up... This is because Netanyahu and Hamas both oppose a peaceful resolution. Hamas =/= Palestinian people. However, if your family's home is taken from you by Israel and your family members are killed by Israeli forces, you will vote for anyone most capable of fighting back, and Israel's funding means Hamas is most capable. >Just be sure you enjoy it when you no longer have a vote that counts I am from the US. My vote is useless. No party or candidate representing my interests can run, much less win.

samatman 3y ago

A platform with a proprietary algorithm which ranks and boosts content does not get the benefit of doubt. They are per se responsible for what people see. If pro-Palestinian views are on TikTok at 36:1, that's what TikTok wants, they could easily promote content at a different ratio.

dralley 3y ago

I'm not sure that fully explains it. There is incredible amounts of anti-Israel disinformation as well, that would be easily debunked with a reverse image search if anyone could be bothered. https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2023/10/11/hamas-attacks-israel-bombs-gaza-and-misinformation-surges-online/ https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2023/10/11/hamas-attacks-isr... https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2023/12/08/images-of-syrian-civil-war-take-on-a-second-life-in-gaza-conflict/ https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2023/12/08/images-of-syrian-...

scythe 3y ago

The simple explanation is that the "Free Palestine" posters just post more. If you look at Internet posts, you'll find a lot of people talking about being vegan, even though vegans are vanishingly rare in real life. Practically every American media outlet that isn't explicitly socialist expresses more sympathy for Israel than Palestine, so people holding contrary views may feel the need to voice them more acutely.