6 ms·

Am an employee, signed the letter. I can't read the article so maybe the content is more nuanced, but the framing irks me. This all happened really fast and t

by xazzy 3y ago

Am an employee, signed the letter. I can't read the article so maybe the content is more nuanced, but the framing irks me. This all happened really fast and the offer was informal. I can only speak for myself but I do have a lot of respect for modern MS, and would have seriously considered the move if that's what kept the team together and comp was reasonable. I would be surprised if most people felt differently.

wintogreen74 3y ago
>> and comp was reasonable A lot of complex issues and perspectives packed into those few words...
- replwoacause 3y ago
  I thought the offer from MSFT, albeit unofficial, was that anyone who made the switch kept their current salary.
  - shwaj 3y ago
    A big part of the comp is in equity, and since OpenAI has an uncommon equity structure it is unclear how that would translate to Microsoft stock.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - rgbrgb 3y ago
    i would guess a lot of OpenAI employees are sitting on some pretty valuable stock/options if the company doesn't implode
    - imjonse 3y ago
      Hence the overwhelming number of hearts in the Twitter messages asking for the return of Sam Altman.
  - dmazzoni 3y ago
    What about the non-salary part of comp? For most employees, their OpenAI stock would have been worth even more than their salary at its current valuation, and it has the potential to potentially be worth quite a bit more in the future. Replacing it with Microsoft stock would have made it a sure thing - but also with much less growth potential. I'd be really curious to hear if Microsoft actually got so far as to figure out what to offer OpenAI employees in terms of an equity offer.
    - Atotalnoob 3y ago
      OpenAI doesn’t have stock. They have PPUs, which is similar to profit sharing
vthallam 3y ago
> >> and comp was reasonable there's no way you guys would get the same comp though? like not even close. MSFT irrespective of how much it wants you is not going to honor the 10X increase in valuation from the upcoming $90 billion valuation. Even if they do, you will miss on the upside. MSFT stock is not going to 10X but OpenAI's might.
- anupsurendran 3y ago
  100% vthallam. The upside for OpenAI is much higher.
  - smileysteve 3y ago
    .... Unless Sam Altman, major research leaders and 50%+ of the employees had transferred to Microsoft
- blagie 3y ago
  I think if things went that far, OpenAIs valuation would very quickly pop to zero. Real MSFT stock beats a theoretical could-have-been with a 10x upside.
  - gretch 3y ago
    > Real MSFT stock beats a theoretical could-have-been with a 10x upside. As someone who has done startups, I highly agree with this statement. But for a lot of people doing start ups for the first time (including my younger self) they don't understand the headache of private market equity, and thus do not apply the correct discount. As they say, a bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush.
- ponector 3y ago
  Don't forget that with new rounds and new valuation there is also a dilution of shares. If the valuation goes up x10 after next round average developer probably will have the same money locked in rsu/options.
  - 3y ago
mrtksn 3y ago
Obviously MS does some great things but I wonder what do you think about their culture? MS is trying to make me use Edge Browser by randomly refusing to let me use Bing chat in any other browser. This makes me think that MS is still evil and will force me to do things the moment they can. I gave up Bing Chat because of this and was using Perplexity.ai instead, until Bing got integrated into ChatGPT. Another thing is the feel of the MS products is very different than OpenAI. For example, Bing chat again, would have a strange UX where it counts down my message allowance on the topic as I keep asking follow up questions as if it was designed for their convenience and not mine. OpenAI products on the other hand feel much more pleasant to use and don't stress me out even when things don't work as expected, which makes me think that the approach of product design is very different than MS. Same tech running on the Azure servers, completely different product experiences. IMHO this points to completely different mindsets.
- staunton 3y ago
  > MS is still evil All big corporations are "evil", as in, their decisionmaking is scaled and institutionalized enough to effectively implement the goal of "maximizing shareholder value" above what's good for you or society.
  - mrtksn 3y ago
    No, not all companies try to exploit their strength in one area to make me use some other product that I have no interest in. I'm not talking about "hey, we have this product that you might like", I'm talking about "if you want to use this product, you must also use this product". There's also no technical reason for it, sometimes they will let me use it. Not O.K.
    - kbenson 3y ago
      > No, not all companies try to exploit their strength in one area to make me use some other product that I have no interest in. I'm not sure of any large one that doesn't. The incentives are aligned such that it's hard for them not to. It's easy to find examples of similar (sometimes almost identical) behavior from most large companies.
andsoitis 3y ago
the conversation in this thread makes me wonder about whether the right incentives for OpenAI should be to make tons of money. Personally, I prefer to make tons of money, but as someone who will not have a say in whether to participate in an AI-driven world, I would prefer if there were non-profit counterweights. Perhaps governments will have the wherewithal to steer things but I am somewhat concerned.
- scarface_74 3y ago
  You really think “non profits” are any less power hungry than for profits?
  - rurp 3y ago
    I'm not the original poster, but yes I do. Sure there are plenty of examples of power hungry non-profits and once in a while a for-profit company acts altruistically, but on average I think that there's a difference. If we randomly picked some executives from either type of company I would bet that the people in the non-profit group would more often have motivations beyond pure power and money accumulation.
    - scarface_74 3y ago
      Let’s take the executives of the non profits that make the most revenue, how many do you think are not concerned with power…now add religious institutions to that mix. Then add college administrators to that mix.
      - LadyCailin 3y ago
        I don’t believe religious institutions deserve to be non profit.
    - sirspacey 3y ago
      Having worked in non-profits and with a community of people who do, there’s not a difference. Large non-profits optimize for revenue, small ones for impact. The big fish eat the little ones or turn them into impact sharecroppers.
strangattractor 3y ago
Smart - If it ain't written down it is not an offer.
VirusNewbie 3y ago
If you're ok with sharing, did you sign it because you are more aligned with the productizing of GPT etc, or is it that you truly believe Sama is the CEO to follow? Or a combination of both?
trompetenaccoun 3y ago
I'm not a fan of "as an X" posts, unless there is evidence the user actually is X. With an anon account, not much history on HN and no apparent link to OpenAI, for all we know this might as well be someone from the Microsoft PR team.
clwg 3y ago
I can't even imagine what it was like to experience this from the inside, with the entire world speculating on this drama, especially considering that the day before, everyone was celebrating what you and your team were creating. I have to assume that the environment there was pretty exciting as well, and I hope the energy wasn't ruined by this. I like being surprised by technology and I love seeing people innovate because of what you and your team have pushed to the forefront. Godspeed.

by xazzy 3y ago

wintogreen74 3y ago

>> and comp was reasonable A lot of complex issues and perspectives packed into those few words...

replwoacause 3y ago
I thought the offer from MSFT, albeit unofficial, was that anyone who made the switch kept their current salary.
- shwaj 3y ago
  A big part of the comp is in equity, and since OpenAI has an uncommon equity structure it is unclear how that would translate to Microsoft stock.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- rgbrgb 3y ago
  i would guess a lot of OpenAI employees are sitting on some pretty valuable stock/options if the company doesn't implode
  - imjonse 3y ago
    Hence the overwhelming number of hearts in the Twitter messages asking for the return of Sam Altman.
- dmazzoni 3y ago
  What about the non-salary part of comp? For most employees, their OpenAI stock would have been worth even more than their salary at its current valuation, and it has the potential to potentially be worth quite a bit more in the future. Replacing it with Microsoft stock would have made it a sure thing - but also with much less growth potential. I'd be really curious to hear if Microsoft actually got so far as to figure out what to offer OpenAI employees in terms of an equity offer.
  - Atotalnoob 3y ago
    OpenAI doesn’t have stock. They have PPUs, which is similar to profit sharing

vthallam 3y ago

> >> and comp was reasonable there's no way you guys would get the same comp though? like not even close. MSFT irrespective of how much it wants you is not going to honor the 10X increase in valuation from the upcoming $90 billion valuation. Even if they do, you will miss on the upside. MSFT stock is not going to 10X but OpenAI's might.

anupsurendran 3y ago
100% vthallam. The upside for OpenAI is much higher.
- smileysteve 3y ago
  .... Unless Sam Altman, major research leaders and 50%+ of the employees had transferred to Microsoft
blagie 3y ago
I think if things went that far, OpenAIs valuation would very quickly pop to zero. Real MSFT stock beats a theoretical could-have-been with a 10x upside.
- gretch 3y ago
  > Real MSFT stock beats a theoretical could-have-been with a 10x upside. As someone who has done startups, I highly agree with this statement. But for a lot of people doing start ups for the first time (including my younger self) they don't understand the headache of private market equity, and thus do not apply the correct discount. As they say, a bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush.
ponector 3y ago
Don't forget that with new rounds and new valuation there is also a dilution of shares. If the valuation goes up x10 after next round average developer probably will have the same money locked in rsu/options.
- 3y ago

mrtksn 3y ago

Obviously MS does some great things but I wonder what do you think about their culture? MS is trying to make me use Edge Browser by randomly refusing to let me use Bing chat in any other browser. This makes me think that MS is still evil and will force me to do things the moment they can. I gave up Bing Chat because of this and was using Perplexity.ai instead, until Bing got integrated into ChatGPT. Another thing is the feel of the MS products is very different than OpenAI. For example, Bing chat again, would have a strange UX where it counts down my message allowance on the topic as I keep asking follow up questions as if it was designed for their convenience and not mine. OpenAI products on the other hand feel much more pleasant to use and don't stress me out even when things don't work as expected, which makes me think that the approach of product design is very different than MS. Same tech running on the Azure servers, completely different product experiences. IMHO this points to completely different mindsets.

staunton 3y ago
> MS is still evil All big corporations are "evil", as in, their decisionmaking is scaled and institutionalized enough to effectively implement the goal of "maximizing shareholder value" above what's good for you or society.
- mrtksn 3y ago
  No, not all companies try to exploit their strength in one area to make me use some other product that I have no interest in. I'm not talking about "hey, we have this product that you might like", I'm talking about "if you want to use this product, you must also use this product". There's also no technical reason for it, sometimes they will let me use it. Not O.K.
  - kbenson 3y ago
    > No, not all companies try to exploit their strength in one area to make me use some other product that I have no interest in. I'm not sure of any large one that doesn't. The incentives are aligned such that it's hard for them not to. It's easy to find examples of similar (sometimes almost identical) behavior from most large companies.

andsoitis 3y ago

the conversation in this thread makes me wonder about whether the right incentives for OpenAI should be to make tons of money. Personally, I prefer to make tons of money, but as someone who will not have a say in whether to participate in an AI-driven world, I would prefer if there were non-profit counterweights. Perhaps governments will have the wherewithal to steer things but I am somewhat concerned.

scarface_74 3y ago
You really think “non profits” are any less power hungry than for profits?
- rurp 3y ago
  I'm not the original poster, but yes I do. Sure there are plenty of examples of power hungry non-profits and once in a while a for-profit company acts altruistically, but on average I think that there's a difference. If we randomly picked some executives from either type of company I would bet that the people in the non-profit group would more often have motivations beyond pure power and money accumulation.
  - scarface_74 3y ago
    Let’s take the executives of the non profits that make the most revenue, how many do you think are not concerned with power…now add religious institutions to that mix. Then add college administrators to that mix.
    - LadyCailin 3y ago
      I don’t believe religious institutions deserve to be non profit.
  - sirspacey 3y ago
    Having worked in non-profits and with a community of people who do, there’s not a difference. Large non-profits optimize for revenue, small ones for impact. The big fish eat the little ones or turn them into impact sharecroppers.

strangattractor 3y ago

Smart - If it ain't written down it is not an offer.

VirusNewbie 3y ago

If you're ok with sharing, did you sign it because you are more aligned with the productizing of GPT etc, or is it that you truly believe Sama is the CEO to follow? Or a combination of both?

trompetenaccoun 3y ago

I'm not a fan of "as an X" posts, unless there is evidence the user actually is X. With an anon account, not much history on HN and no apparent link to OpenAI, for all we know this might as well be someone from the Microsoft PR team.

clwg 3y ago

I can't even imagine what it was like to experience this from the inside, with the entire world speculating on this drama, especially considering that the day before, everyone was celebrating what you and your team were creating. I have to assume that the environment there was pretty exciting as well, and I hope the energy wasn't ruined by this. I like being surprised by technology and I love seeing people innovate because of what you and your team have pushed to the forefront. Godspeed.