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The slavery and working conditions in China no longer really surprises me, what I do struggle to understand is that Western companies apparently DO NOT CARE. I

The slavery and working conditions in China no longer really surprises me, what I do struggle to understand is that Western companies apparently DO NOT CARE. I can sort of accept, reluctantly, that the Chinese have a different way to thinking than I do and that I can't necessarily apply my moral code to China. What I cannot accept or understand is that the owners and managers of Western companies, who supposedly share my moral ideals, continues to do business with China, solely to increase profit. It's absolutely disgusting. The mental gymnastics these people have to do to justify or just ignore the problems is beyond what I can even imagine.

Xelbair 3y ago
they care about profit. they have to. At least in the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_v._Ford_Motor_Co https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_v._Ford_Motor_Co.
- 0dayz 3y ago
  That one literally states it's uncertain if it is the case that corporations that are public have to maximize profits in the interest of the shareholders.
- bantunes 3y ago
  This argument always felt like a cop-out to me. "Amazon is squeezing employees for maximum profit!" "Yes, they have to maximize profit by law" right, but there are also laws against union-busting, about workplace safety, etc, etc however _for some reason_ these other laws are second tier to a corporation's legal profit mandate.
  - o-o- 3y ago
    Do you have a source for "they have to maximize profit by law"?
pera 3y ago
> Western companies apparently DO NOT CARE They do care about profit margins, which is why they outsource slavery.
aleph_minus_one 3y ago
> What I cannot accept or understand is that the owners and managers of Western companies, who supposedly share my moral ideals Are you really sure that these people share your own moral ideals? ;-)
- octacat 3y ago
  Western companies which cared, went a bit bankrupt sadly. We have negative selection here.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - rapnie 3y ago
    Yes, a system called "capitalism" that works perfectly only in theory, and where bending rules creates winning conditions, and corruption is on always upward trend lines.
  - financltravsty 3y ago
    Patagonia? Chick-Fil-A? I think when you go full B2B, you are destined to be a soulless corporate automaton.
    - isilofi 3y ago
      > Patagonia? Chick-Fil-A? There is certainly a niche catering to the handful of customers who do care, have the money to care, have enough information to care and get the opportunity to show they care by selecting the right vendor. But very often I think the consumer is just unable to care because of lacking money, lacking information or outright deception by the vendors and lacking offers from ethical vendors. And the market unfortunately favors the non-ethical ones. Which doesn't make ethical ones impossible or non-existent, just less likely to succeed and therefore rare.
      - aleph_minus_one 3y ago
hackerlight 3y ago
> continues to do business with China ... It's absolutely disgusting. I want to inject some nuance here. Competition in the labor market, which drives business to low- or middle-income countries like China, is really really good for the typical low-middle income person in China. If wealthy countries pulled out entirely, then China's GDP per capita will probably drop from $12,000 back to sub-$5,000 and you will be causing more suffering for the people you're concerned about. By all means, advocate for better pay and conditions and regulations, but don't advocate for pulling out of poor or middle income countries with lax labor protections entirely. It wasn't clear to me which avenue you're arguing for but I feel it's an important point worth stressing.
- holoduke 3y ago
  No fuck that argument people use to whitewash bad/harsch working conditions. "A low income is better than no income". "Better be employed as a slave than unemployed" is basically what they say. Inless its not a close relative or your own kids working there. You would immediately change your opinion if thats the case. That fucked western hypocritical way of thinking needs to stop. Its really bad. Better everyone being a poor rice farmer than working in shit factory.
  - junofan 3y ago
    FYI China needs to import food. The alternative is famine for hundreds of millions of people, not bucolic rice farming.
  - sgjohnson 3y ago
    Except this has nothing to do with the west. The west is not responsible for working conditions in China in any way, shape or form. It's strictly a Chinese problem.
  - thaumasiotes 3y ago
    > Better everyone being a poor rice farmer than working in shit factory. Why do the poor rice farmers line up to apply for factory jobs?
  - 3y ago
ejb999 3y ago
talk about mental gymnastics - you just said "I can sort of accept, reluctantly, that the Chinese have a different way to thinking than I do and that I can't necessarily apply my moral code to China." so, give them a pass with what they are doing and then criticize others that are giving them the same pass, and also choose to profit from it. What about people who buy stuff made in China? do they get a pass too? So the only party at fault is the middle-man? slave owners get a pass, consumers that enable the slave owners get a pass and the only party at fault is the evil middle-man corporations? If its wrong, its wrong for all parties, if its OK, its OK for all parties.
- xkcd1963 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - sgjohnson 3y ago
    He is right though. The companies are accountable to the shareholders, and the shareholders (usually) don't care. Companies are not sentient beings, they are made up of people. People that don't care. Personally, I'm a consumer and I don't care either. I know where my t-shirts are made and I have a vague understanding under what conditions they are made. This is not a problem that has to be fixed in the west. It's a problem that has to be fixed in China. But China doesn't want to fix it, because fixing it would make them less competitive globally. Consumers WANT cheap goods. China OFFERS cheap goods. Companies offer the consumers exactly what they want. Simple as. You really cannot blame only the companies without blaming the consumers too. And if you care, you can stop buying things manufactured in China.
    - cafeoh 3y ago
      > You really cannot blame only the companies without blaming the consumers too. Right, the problem is structural, but consumers for the most part aren't and can't realistically be in the know as to the horrible work conditions under which what they consume is produced, most of them aren't particularly happy with their own work conditions in the first place. And even if they do know (when the company has failed to hide it from them) they often don't have a choice. Consumers also don't lobby for worsening the conditions and abolishing the rights of workers. Companies on the other hand are almost always in the know, and choose not only to continue to benefit from this exploitation, but are also willing to go to tremendous lengths to hide, defend or expand this exploitation. And yet neither of the parties are "evil", the most "enlightened" liberal will realize they both take part in the same economy and use that as a justification, but the consumer can not change this through their consumption (even an immortal, omniscient and perfectly rational economic agent straight out a neoclassical economic textbook would consider this an uphill battle) nor the producer through their production ("another will take my place" and so on). Now to me if you (not you) recognize this, that the problem is inherently structural, but you're unwilling to criticize and rethink the structure, I have to assume the structure doesn't bother you all that much or worse, that you're a defeatist. Either way the good news is that there is an endless amount of other things to point your finger at (like China).
krageon 3y ago
The west is built on the back of slavery, and this has never changed. It has just been moved to where we don't need to see it.
dieselgate 3y ago
> Western companies apparently DO NOT CARE. Western Consumers don't care either
- constantly 3y ago
  I’m a western consumer and I care.
  - d3w4s9 3y ago
    Thank you and 5 other people in the western hemisphere. Shein shoppers definitely will take notice.
- ClumsyPilot 3y ago
  If that were true, western companies would spend billions to hide their complicity in slave labour
octacat 3y ago
The people would be like: "If our company does not benefit from chinese slaves, someone else will and steal our profits!". Which is kinda sadly true, because Amazon does not care were the stock items come from. You can produce in countries with strong work laws, but it is just too expensive. (same with countries where we get energy resources from - they don't have ideal reputation for human rights, but they are cheap). It is kinda simple: you can buy a tshirt from Italy produced in Italy and having price tag 3 times more. Or you can buy from China... Now think you are a company with thin margins and have to do the same... And your items are after getting sold on Amazon, which algorithms would force you to sell as cheap as possible, otherwise your item would not be seen in the search results.
- razakel 3y ago
  >It is kinda simple: you can buy a tshirt from Italy produced in Italy and having price tag 3 times more. And it will still have been made by a slave.
vladms 3y ago
The companies respond mostly to what the public is willing to do about something. If the only thing people do is complaining on social networks then companies will not address the issue. If people will avoid a certain company based on their behavior then they will change it.
liendolucas 3y ago
Another huge problem is that most of the time there's really no other choice than to buy "Made in China". Even if you have the money and willing to spend more.
ako 3y ago
Western companies can't afford to care, as their consumers are buying based on price. Bad working conditions usually mean lower prices, and more success for the company using this. You can't expect companies to fix this, this needs to come through politics and government. Unfortunately, these days governments who try to address it will be considered enemies of capitalism, considered leftish or communist. As prices will have to rise and consumers won't allow for that.
- sgjohnson 3y ago
  > this needs to come through politics and government. There's nothing western politicians can do to fix working conditions in China. Embargo them? The working conditions in China won't get any better, and you'll simply put a lot of Chinese out of work by doing that. Higher tariffs? That's just a tax on importing goods for China. While it helps the domestic manufacturing sector, it still does nothing to fix the working conditions in China. Consumers suddenly start caring? The same as the "higher tariffs" scenario. Any other ideas?
  - ako 3y ago
    Rules on products sold in the west. Most manufacturing companies already need to trace the origin of their components, so you could specify what products are and aren't allowed to be sold in the west.
    - sgjohnson 3y ago
      And how would that help the working conditions in China? You’d just shift the manufacturing to a less hostile environment, where the government doesn’t intentionally make it hard to do auditing on modern slavery. Like India. I just don’t see how it would help the Chinese labour situation at all.
      - ako 3y ago
        If china wants to deliver to the west they'll need to improve working conditions. Chinese companies will deliver at spec for lowest cost, if you up the spec, they'll adjust and increase cost adjustingly.
bell-cot 3y ago
> ...the owners and managers of Western companies, who supposedly share my moral ideals, continues to do business... SUPPOSEDLY - just like Big Tobacco has always wanted everyone to know the scientific truth about the health effects of smoking tobacco, right? Capitalism optimizes for profit. If some profits need to be foregone or spent on pretending to share the moral ideals of the consumers - that also gets optimized, to minimize performative idealism and its costs.
isilofi 3y ago
Nobody in power in industry and almost nobody from the consumer side cares about working conditions in any typical outsourcing country. Quite the opposite, "less regulation", "lower cost" and things like that are directly caused by ignoring worker rights and human rights (as well as a few other things). China is not alone in this, just more present in the HN-relevant IT/tech sector. But clothing in southeast asia, mining in africa and south america, logistics/trucking in eastern europe are relevant examples from other regions and industries. I don't intend to disperse responsibility here or distract, quite the opposite: One of the main reasons the aforementioned abuses can continue is that "the civilized west" systematically ignores those problems on all levels. There are some EU regulations coming up to improve this situation, but we'll have to wait and see on those...
- octacat 3y ago
  "It is not a bug it is a feature it seams". The only way to solve it is to make buying from local producer and from China the same, i.e. extra import taxes. But these import taxes nobody likes, so nothing is done. Just a couple of years ago there was no VAT when buying from China in EU (or it was barely enforceable). Government is also kinda "happy" in the short run. It is easier to hide the real inflation. Before I could clothe in EU produced stuff, and now I can only clothe in asia produced. But I still get the "same" thing as a consumer, even if my real salary lost some power.
MrVandemar 3y ago
> what I do struggle to understand is that Western companies apparently DO NOT CARE. Here's what it is: in law corporations are essentially given a weird kind of personhood. It's that way so corporations can get things done. Unfortunately, corporations aren't people: they don't care, they don't have ethics, they don't have morals, they don't have values, they don't have family, they don't have a conscience. It's not an original observation, but due to this, the type of person a company most resembles is one of posessing profound psychopathological traits.
- aembleton 3y ago
  > they don't have ethics, they don't have morals, they don't have values, they don't have family, they don't have a conscience. Corporations aren't people but they are run and managed by people. I'd like to think that they have ethics, morals and a conscience.
  - MrVandemar 3y ago
    They don't. Companies are structures that attract and reward sociopaths and narcissists, and they're designed to maximise profit. Normal people aren't given the opportunity to weild any kind of power, but people with low empathy and high charisma scores, straight to the top!
d3w4s9 3y ago
Does it even matter? Lots of products on Amazon are produced by non-Western companies which very likely have questionable labor practice. Oh, these days people buy thing on Temu and Shein and things are shipped from outside the US. Consumers always look for the cheapest products, and nothing will change as long as that is true.
ClumsyPilot 3y ago
> Western companies apparently DO NOT CARE They do, they hired killers to murder Union leaders in Columbia https://www.theguardian.com/media/2003/jul/24/marketingandpr.colombia https://www.theguardian.com/media/2003/jul/24/marketingandpr...
- reaperman 3y ago
  *Colombia (Columbia is a clothing company). At least in American spelling.
badpun 3y ago
> I can sort of accept, reluctantly, that the Chinese have a different way to thinking than I do and that I can't necessarily apply my moral code to China. Do you really believe that Chinese are different from US in this regard? I.e. that most Chinese people believe that it's perfectly ok to exploit people to the bone, because they have alternatives? No, they, just like us, believe it's a rotten thing to do, and agree to it only because well, they have no alternatives. No different than the extremely exploited workers in hellish factories in XIX century US or England.

Xelbair 3y ago

they care about profit. they have to. At least in the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_v._Ford_Motor_Co https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_v._Ford_Motor_Co.

0dayz 3y ago
That one literally states it's uncertain if it is the case that corporations that are public have to maximize profits in the interest of the shareholders.
bantunes 3y ago
This argument always felt like a cop-out to me. "Amazon is squeezing employees for maximum profit!" "Yes, they have to maximize profit by law" right, but there are also laws against union-busting, about workplace safety, etc, etc however _for some reason_ these other laws are second tier to a corporation's legal profit mandate.
- o-o- 3y ago
  Do you have a source for "they have to maximize profit by law"?

pera 3y ago

> Western companies apparently DO NOT CARE They do care about profit margins, which is why they outsource slavery.

aleph_minus_one 3y ago

> What I cannot accept or understand is that the owners and managers of Western companies, who supposedly share my moral ideals Are you really sure that these people share your own moral ideals? ;-)

octacat 3y ago
Western companies which cared, went a bit bankrupt sadly. We have negative selection here.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- rapnie 3y ago
  Yes, a system called "capitalism" that works perfectly only in theory, and where bending rules creates winning conditions, and corruption is on always upward trend lines.
- financltravsty 3y ago
  Patagonia? Chick-Fil-A? I think when you go full B2B, you are destined to be a soulless corporate automaton.
  - isilofi 3y ago
    > Patagonia? Chick-Fil-A? There is certainly a niche catering to the handful of customers who do care, have the money to care, have enough information to care and get the opportunity to show they care by selecting the right vendor. But very often I think the consumer is just unable to care because of lacking money, lacking information or outright deception by the vendors and lacking offers from ethical vendors. And the market unfortunately favors the non-ethical ones. Which doesn't make ethical ones impossible or non-existent, just less likely to succeed and therefore rare.
    - aleph_minus_one 3y ago

hackerlight 3y ago

> continues to do business with China ... It's absolutely disgusting. I want to inject some nuance here. Competition in the labor market, which drives business to low- or middle-income countries like China, is really really good for the typical low-middle income person in China. If wealthy countries pulled out entirely, then China's GDP per capita will probably drop from $12,000 back to sub-$5,000 and you will be causing more suffering for the people you're concerned about. By all means, advocate for better pay and conditions and regulations, but don't advocate for pulling out of poor or middle income countries with lax labor protections entirely. It wasn't clear to me which avenue you're arguing for but I feel it's an important point worth stressing.

holoduke 3y ago
No fuck that argument people use to whitewash bad/harsch working conditions. "A low income is better than no income". "Better be employed as a slave than unemployed" is basically what they say. Inless its not a close relative or your own kids working there. You would immediately change your opinion if thats the case. That fucked western hypocritical way of thinking needs to stop. Its really bad. Better everyone being a poor rice farmer than working in shit factory.
- junofan 3y ago
  FYI China needs to import food. The alternative is famine for hundreds of millions of people, not bucolic rice farming.
- sgjohnson 3y ago
  Except this has nothing to do with the west. The west is not responsible for working conditions in China in any way, shape or form. It's strictly a Chinese problem.
- thaumasiotes 3y ago
  > Better everyone being a poor rice farmer than working in shit factory. Why do the poor rice farmers line up to apply for factory jobs?
- 3y ago

ejb999 3y ago

talk about mental gymnastics - you just said "I can sort of accept, reluctantly, that the Chinese have a different way to thinking than I do and that I can't necessarily apply my moral code to China." so, give them a pass with what they are doing and then criticize others that are giving them the same pass, and also choose to profit from it. What about people who buy stuff made in China? do they get a pass too? So the only party at fault is the middle-man? slave owners get a pass, consumers that enable the slave owners get a pass and the only party at fault is the evil middle-man corporations? If its wrong, its wrong for all parties, if its OK, its OK for all parties.

xkcd1963 3y ago
[flagged]
- sgjohnson 3y ago
  He is right though. The companies are accountable to the shareholders, and the shareholders (usually) don't care. Companies are not sentient beings, they are made up of people. People that don't care. Personally, I'm a consumer and I don't care either. I know where my t-shirts are made and I have a vague understanding under what conditions they are made. This is not a problem that has to be fixed in the west. It's a problem that has to be fixed in China. But China doesn't want to fix it, because fixing it would make them less competitive globally. Consumers WANT cheap goods. China OFFERS cheap goods. Companies offer the consumers exactly what they want. Simple as. You really cannot blame only the companies without blaming the consumers too. And if you care, you can stop buying things manufactured in China.
  - cafeoh 3y ago
    > You really cannot blame only the companies without blaming the consumers too. Right, the problem is structural, but consumers for the most part aren't and can't realistically be in the know as to the horrible work conditions under which what they consume is produced, most of them aren't particularly happy with their own work conditions in the first place. And even if they do know (when the company has failed to hide it from them) they often don't have a choice. Consumers also don't lobby for worsening the conditions and abolishing the rights of workers. Companies on the other hand are almost always in the know, and choose not only to continue to benefit from this exploitation, but are also willing to go to tremendous lengths to hide, defend or expand this exploitation. And yet neither of the parties are "evil", the most "enlightened" liberal will realize they both take part in the same economy and use that as a justification, but the consumer can not change this through their consumption (even an immortal, omniscient and perfectly rational economic agent straight out a neoclassical economic textbook would consider this an uphill battle) nor the producer through their production ("another will take my place" and so on). Now to me if you (not you) recognize this, that the problem is inherently structural, but you're unwilling to criticize and rethink the structure, I have to assume the structure doesn't bother you all that much or worse, that you're a defeatist. Either way the good news is that there is an endless amount of other things to point your finger at (like China).

krageon 3y ago

The west is built on the back of slavery, and this has never changed. It has just been moved to where we don't need to see it.

dieselgate 3y ago

> Western companies apparently DO NOT CARE. Western Consumers don't care either

constantly 3y ago
I’m a western consumer and I care.
- d3w4s9 3y ago
  Thank you and 5 other people in the western hemisphere. Shein shoppers definitely will take notice.
ClumsyPilot 3y ago
If that were true, western companies would spend billions to hide their complicity in slave labour

octacat 3y ago

The people would be like: "If our company does not benefit from chinese slaves, someone else will and steal our profits!". Which is kinda sadly true, because Amazon does not care were the stock items come from. You can produce in countries with strong work laws, but it is just too expensive. (same with countries where we get energy resources from - they don't have ideal reputation for human rights, but they are cheap). It is kinda simple: you can buy a tshirt from Italy produced in Italy and having price tag 3 times more. Or you can buy from China... Now think you are a company with thin margins and have to do the same... And your items are after getting sold on Amazon, which algorithms would force you to sell as cheap as possible, otherwise your item would not be seen in the search results.

razakel 3y ago
>It is kinda simple: you can buy a tshirt from Italy produced in Italy and having price tag 3 times more. And it will still have been made by a slave.

vladms 3y ago

The companies respond mostly to what the public is willing to do about something. If the only thing people do is complaining on social networks then companies will not address the issue. If people will avoid a certain company based on their behavior then they will change it.

liendolucas 3y ago

Another huge problem is that most of the time there's really no other choice than to buy "Made in China". Even if you have the money and willing to spend more.

ako 3y ago

Western companies can't afford to care, as their consumers are buying based on price. Bad working conditions usually mean lower prices, and more success for the company using this. You can't expect companies to fix this, this needs to come through politics and government. Unfortunately, these days governments who try to address it will be considered enemies of capitalism, considered leftish or communist. As prices will have to rise and consumers won't allow for that.

sgjohnson 3y ago
> this needs to come through politics and government. There's nothing western politicians can do to fix working conditions in China. Embargo them? The working conditions in China won't get any better, and you'll simply put a lot of Chinese out of work by doing that. Higher tariffs? That's just a tax on importing goods for China. While it helps the domestic manufacturing sector, it still does nothing to fix the working conditions in China. Consumers suddenly start caring? The same as the "higher tariffs" scenario. Any other ideas?
- ako 3y ago
  Rules on products sold in the west. Most manufacturing companies already need to trace the origin of their components, so you could specify what products are and aren't allowed to be sold in the west.
  - sgjohnson 3y ago
    And how would that help the working conditions in China? You’d just shift the manufacturing to a less hostile environment, where the government doesn’t intentionally make it hard to do auditing on modern slavery. Like India. I just don’t see how it would help the Chinese labour situation at all.
    - ako 3y ago
      If china wants to deliver to the west they'll need to improve working conditions. Chinese companies will deliver at spec for lowest cost, if you up the spec, they'll adjust and increase cost adjustingly.

bell-cot 3y ago

> ...the owners and managers of Western companies, who supposedly share my moral ideals, continues to do business... SUPPOSEDLY - just like Big Tobacco has always wanted everyone to know the scientific truth about the health effects of smoking tobacco, right? Capitalism optimizes for profit. If some profits need to be foregone or spent on pretending to share the moral ideals of the consumers - that also gets optimized, to minimize performative idealism and its costs.

isilofi 3y ago

Nobody in power in industry and almost nobody from the consumer side cares about working conditions in any typical outsourcing country. Quite the opposite, "less regulation", "lower cost" and things like that are directly caused by ignoring worker rights and human rights (as well as a few other things). China is not alone in this, just more present in the HN-relevant IT/tech sector. But clothing in southeast asia, mining in africa and south america, logistics/trucking in eastern europe are relevant examples from other regions and industries. I don't intend to disperse responsibility here or distract, quite the opposite: One of the main reasons the aforementioned abuses can continue is that "the civilized west" systematically ignores those problems on all levels. There are some EU regulations coming up to improve this situation, but we'll have to wait and see on those...

octacat 3y ago
"It is not a bug it is a feature it seams". The only way to solve it is to make buying from local producer and from China the same, i.e. extra import taxes. But these import taxes nobody likes, so nothing is done. Just a couple of years ago there was no VAT when buying from China in EU (or it was barely enforceable). Government is also kinda "happy" in the short run. It is easier to hide the real inflation. Before I could clothe in EU produced stuff, and now I can only clothe in asia produced. But I still get the "same" thing as a consumer, even if my real salary lost some power.

MrVandemar 3y ago

> what I do struggle to understand is that Western companies apparently DO NOT CARE. Here's what it is: in law corporations are essentially given a weird kind of personhood. It's that way so corporations can get things done. Unfortunately, corporations aren't people: they don't care, they don't have ethics, they don't have morals, they don't have values, they don't have family, they don't have a conscience. It's not an original observation, but due to this, the type of person a company most resembles is one of posessing profound psychopathological traits.

aembleton 3y ago
> they don't have ethics, they don't have morals, they don't have values, they don't have family, they don't have a conscience. Corporations aren't people but they are run and managed by people. I'd like to think that they have ethics, morals and a conscience.
- MrVandemar 3y ago
  They don't. Companies are structures that attract and reward sociopaths and narcissists, and they're designed to maximise profit. Normal people aren't given the opportunity to weild any kind of power, but people with low empathy and high charisma scores, straight to the top!

d3w4s9 3y ago

Does it even matter? Lots of products on Amazon are produced by non-Western companies which very likely have questionable labor practice. Oh, these days people buy thing on Temu and Shein and things are shipped from outside the US. Consumers always look for the cheapest products, and nothing will change as long as that is true.

ClumsyPilot 3y ago

> Western companies apparently DO NOT CARE They do, they hired killers to murder Union leaders in Columbia https://www.theguardian.com/media/2003/jul/24/marketingandpr.colombia https://www.theguardian.com/media/2003/jul/24/marketingandpr...

reaperman 3y ago
*Colombia (Columbia is a clothing company). At least in American spelling.

badpun 3y ago

> I can sort of accept, reluctantly, that the Chinese have a different way to thinking than I do and that I can't necessarily apply my moral code to China. Do you really believe that Chinese are different from US in this regard? I.e. that most Chinese people believe that it's perfectly ok to exploit people to the bone, because they have alternatives? No, they, just like us, believe it's a rotten thing to do, and agree to it only because well, they have no alternatives. No different than the extremely exploited workers in hellish factories in XIX century US or England.