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Slavery is de-facto legal in China and their justice system is rotten to the core. Is this really news to anyone? I would be surprised if this had ended differ

Slavery is de-facto legal in China and their justice system is rotten to the core. Is this really news to anyone? I would be surprised if this had ended differently.

ClumsyPilot 3y ago
> As our report describes in detail, the labor conditions of incarcerated workers in many U.S. prisons violate the most fundamental human rights to life and dignity,” said Clinical Prof. Claudia Flores, the director of the Global Human Rights Clinic. “In any other workplace, these conditions would be shocking and plainly unlawful https://news.uchicago.edu/story/us-prison-labor-programs-violate-fundamental-human-rights-new-report-finds https://news.uchicago.edu/story/us-prison-labor-programs-vio...
- zaggynl 3y ago
  Whataboutism and you're comparing a factory to a prison.
  - krageon 3y ago
    A prison that builds things is a factory. It's insight into the fact that in fact the norms are no different in the US.
    - zaggynl 3y ago
      I would assume the people working in the Chinese factory have _some_ time off to go outside said factory? Or have the ability to turn in their notice and leave for a different job? Agreed on the fact that both seem like a corporate hellhole one way or the other.
      - krageon 3y ago
        I honestly don't see the difference between a factory worker that works seven days a week and lives close to the factory (and doesn't travel, as that's for folks with free time and disposable income) and someone who is in prison. In both cases there is only a very small society that they are actually a part of and very limited personal autonomy. I know a lot of folks like to say the theoretical presence of choice means someone is free, but let us be honest here: When you are poor, you may have a choice of where you are imprisoned but that doesn't mean you can escape.
        hnfong 3y ago
        What you say is true, but unless you have a way to eliminate poverty, the moral imperative doesn't provide a solution. It doesn't make sense to outlaw poor people. And paradoxically, at least under context of international trade, the only sustainable way to get poor countries out of poverty is for richer countries to trade with them.
- sgjohnson 3y ago
  The US constitution actually allows slavery/involuntary servitude as a punishment for a crime, as per the 13th amendment: > Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction. So it makes little sense to compare prison labour programs to "any other workplace".
  - ClumsyPilot 3y ago
    > makes little sense to compare prison labour programs to "any other workplace" Either it's force labour, or it's not. You can't get away with things just by slapping a different label on them. > The US constitution actually allows slavery If a Chinese person posted here "actually all the human rights abuses in China are perfectly legal and in accordance with Chinese law" you would not be impressed. We wouldn't be like "alright, nothing to see here". In fact, we would probably be horrified that the inhumane system was codified officially, and is here to stay, as opposed to being a temporary result of oversight and corruption. So forgive the international reader like myself for being extremely unimpressed with this state of affairs.
    - michaelcampbell 3y ago
      > You can't get away with things just by slapping a different label on them. This is almost precisely what a legal system is, and does.
    - therealdrag0 3y ago
      A parent forcing a child to do their chores is forced labor, but no one calls it that or slavery (except the kid :)). Context matters, and compulsion alone is not a rights or ethical violation.
    - sgjohnson 3y ago
      I’m pretty sure that most countries allow forced labour as a punishment for a crime. In my native Latvia, a member of the EU, it’s the most commonly handed out criminal punishment. x hours of unpaid public work. Typically on a strict schedule. Or you can go to the can if you’re opposed to such “slavery”. Oh and yes, there are also labour programs in our prisons that are probably comparable to the ones in the US. An easy sell actually, because you can either 1. fill your day by doing some work in horrible conditions for basically no pay, but you get to do something 2. rot in your cell all day long I’m pretty sure that most people pick option 1. After all, you need a way to buy cigarettes. Nobody calls this slavery. We also have mandatory military service that started this year. I’m happy to call this slavery, because it’s imposed on people that haven’t done anything wrong. But you seriously can’t compare forced labour as a punishment for a crime vs any other workplace. It’s disingenious for very obvious reasons. Why not go a step further? Why not claim that it’s a human rights violation to incarcerate people in the first place? After all, the universal declaration of human rights says that EVERYONE has the right to leave their country, re-enter it, and freely move about in their own country, and this is a “universal human right” that’s so clearly being denied to prisoners. So forgive the international reader like myself for seeing nothing morally wrong with this state of affairs.
mrweasel 3y ago
The slavery and working conditions in China no longer really surprises me, what I do struggle to understand is that Western companies apparently DO NOT CARE. I can sort of accept, reluctantly, that the Chinese have a different way to thinking than I do and that I can't necessarily apply my moral code to China. What I cannot accept or understand is that the owners and managers of Western companies, who supposedly share my moral ideals, continues to do business with China, solely to increase profit. It's absolutely disgusting. The mental gymnastics these people have to do to justify or just ignore the problems is beyond what I can even imagine.
- Xelbair 3y ago
  they care about profit. they have to. At least in the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_v._Ford_Motor_Co https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_v._Ford_Motor_Co.
  - 0dayz 3y ago
    That one literally states it's uncertain if it is the case that corporations that are public have to maximize profits in the interest of the shareholders.
  - bantunes 3y ago
    This argument always felt like a cop-out to me. "Amazon is squeezing employees for maximum profit!" "Yes, they have to maximize profit by law" right, but there are also laws against union-busting, about workplace safety, etc, etc however _for some reason_ these other laws are second tier to a corporation's legal profit mandate.
    - o-o- 3y ago
      Do you have a source for "they have to maximize profit by law"?
- pera 3y ago
  > Western companies apparently DO NOT CARE They do care about profit margins, which is why they outsource slavery.
globalnode 3y ago
this is news to me. although i understand they have different systems im not sure ive ever heard it called slavery... do they? (i guess you could say some of the systems in western countries are a little like slavery but lets not get into that)
black_13 3y ago
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Slavery is de-facto legal in China and their justice system is rotten to the core. Is this really news to anyone? I would be surprised if this had ended differently.

ClumsyPilot 3y ago

> As our report describes in detail, the labor conditions of incarcerated workers in many U.S. prisons violate the most fundamental human rights to life and dignity,” said Clinical Prof. Claudia Flores, the director of the Global Human Rights Clinic. “In any other workplace, these conditions would be shocking and plainly unlawful https://news.uchicago.edu/story/us-prison-labor-programs-violate-fundamental-human-rights-new-report-finds https://news.uchicago.edu/story/us-prison-labor-programs-vio...

zaggynl 3y ago
Whataboutism and you're comparing a factory to a prison.
- krageon 3y ago
  A prison that builds things is a factory. It's insight into the fact that in fact the norms are no different in the US.
  - zaggynl 3y ago
    I would assume the people working in the Chinese factory have _some_ time off to go outside said factory? Or have the ability to turn in their notice and leave for a different job? Agreed on the fact that both seem like a corporate hellhole one way or the other.
    - krageon 3y ago
      I honestly don't see the difference between a factory worker that works seven days a week and lives close to the factory (and doesn't travel, as that's for folks with free time and disposable income) and someone who is in prison. In both cases there is only a very small society that they are actually a part of and very limited personal autonomy. I know a lot of folks like to say the theoretical presence of choice means someone is free, but let us be honest here: When you are poor, you may have a choice of where you are imprisoned but that doesn't mean you can escape.
      - hnfong 3y ago
        What you say is true, but unless you have a way to eliminate poverty, the moral imperative doesn't provide a solution. It doesn't make sense to outlaw poor people. And paradoxically, at least under context of international trade, the only sustainable way to get poor countries out of poverty is for richer countries to trade with them.
sgjohnson 3y ago
The US constitution actually allows slavery/involuntary servitude as a punishment for a crime, as per the 13th amendment: > Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction. So it makes little sense to compare prison labour programs to "any other workplace".
- ClumsyPilot 3y ago
  > makes little sense to compare prison labour programs to "any other workplace" Either it's force labour, or it's not. You can't get away with things just by slapping a different label on them. > The US constitution actually allows slavery If a Chinese person posted here "actually all the human rights abuses in China are perfectly legal and in accordance with Chinese law" you would not be impressed. We wouldn't be like "alright, nothing to see here". In fact, we would probably be horrified that the inhumane system was codified officially, and is here to stay, as opposed to being a temporary result of oversight and corruption. So forgive the international reader like myself for being extremely unimpressed with this state of affairs.
  - michaelcampbell 3y ago
    > You can't get away with things just by slapping a different label on them. This is almost precisely what a legal system is, and does.
  - therealdrag0 3y ago
    A parent forcing a child to do their chores is forced labor, but no one calls it that or slavery (except the kid :)). Context matters, and compulsion alone is not a rights or ethical violation.
  - sgjohnson 3y ago
    I’m pretty sure that most countries allow forced labour as a punishment for a crime. In my native Latvia, a member of the EU, it’s the most commonly handed out criminal punishment. x hours of unpaid public work. Typically on a strict schedule. Or you can go to the can if you’re opposed to such “slavery”. Oh and yes, there are also labour programs in our prisons that are probably comparable to the ones in the US. An easy sell actually, because you can either 1. fill your day by doing some work in horrible conditions for basically no pay, but you get to do something 2. rot in your cell all day long I’m pretty sure that most people pick option 1. After all, you need a way to buy cigarettes. Nobody calls this slavery. We also have mandatory military service that started this year. I’m happy to call this slavery, because it’s imposed on people that haven’t done anything wrong. But you seriously can’t compare forced labour as a punishment for a crime vs any other workplace. It’s disingenious for very obvious reasons. Why not go a step further? Why not claim that it’s a human rights violation to incarcerate people in the first place? After all, the universal declaration of human rights says that EVERYONE has the right to leave their country, re-enter it, and freely move about in their own country, and this is a “universal human right” that’s so clearly being denied to prisoners. So forgive the international reader like myself for seeing nothing morally wrong with this state of affairs.

mrweasel 3y ago

The slavery and working conditions in China no longer really surprises me, what I do struggle to understand is that Western companies apparently DO NOT CARE. I can sort of accept, reluctantly, that the Chinese have a different way to thinking than I do and that I can't necessarily apply my moral code to China. What I cannot accept or understand is that the owners and managers of Western companies, who supposedly share my moral ideals, continues to do business with China, solely to increase profit. It's absolutely disgusting. The mental gymnastics these people have to do to justify or just ignore the problems is beyond what I can even imagine.

Xelbair 3y ago
they care about profit. they have to. At least in the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_v._Ford_Motor_Co https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_v._Ford_Motor_Co.
- 0dayz 3y ago
  That one literally states it's uncertain if it is the case that corporations that are public have to maximize profits in the interest of the shareholders.
- bantunes 3y ago
  This argument always felt like a cop-out to me. "Amazon is squeezing employees for maximum profit!" "Yes, they have to maximize profit by law" right, but there are also laws against union-busting, about workplace safety, etc, etc however _for some reason_ these other laws are second tier to a corporation's legal profit mandate.
  - o-o- 3y ago
    Do you have a source for "they have to maximize profit by law"?
pera 3y ago
> Western companies apparently DO NOT CARE They do care about profit margins, which is why they outsource slavery.

globalnode 3y ago

this is news to me. although i understand they have different systems im not sure ive ever heard it called slavery... do they? (i guess you could say some of the systems in western countries are a little like slavery but lets not get into that)

black_13 3y ago

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