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So these trains are exclusively used in Poland by quite a big number of regional train companies. There are 5 servicing levels starting from P1 up to most compl

by drra 3y ago

So these trains are exclusively used in Poland by quite a big number of regional train companies. There are 5 servicing levels starting from P1 up to most complex P5. It used to be that only these major companies would do P3+ but since a few years tenders were won by several smaller competitors at much lower prices all thanks to European Union Agency For Railways that opened that market. It started with 4 trains that were serviced by SPS Mieczkowski and just wouldn't start. The company was forced to pay €0.5m in penalties and trains were sent back to Newag. At the same time several other trains from different companies that didn't even got to service but spent a bit too much time in one place became immobilized. This all led to SPS Mieczkowski hiring Dragon Sector to investigate and they found several separate routines to disable trains. This case is investigated by Central Anti-Corruption Bureau in Poland but I doubt it'll do much harm to Newag. The Office of Rail Transport of Poland that would spam rail company with complaints and orders for a small mistake in train schedule washed it's hands from intervening in this case and train purchases have highly regulated tender process and very little wiggle room for rail companies.

opliko 3y ago
Their newer variant, Impuls 2, is actually used outside of Poland too - Italian FSE operates 11 of them. Though considering they were hoping to continue their expansion into Italy I imagine they might not have sabotaged these trains (but who knows, maybe they're fine with burning even new customers).
KptMarchewa 3y ago
>This case is investigated by Central Anti-Corruption Bureau in Poland but I doubt it'll do much harm to Newag. The Office of Rail Transport of Poland that would spam rail company with complaints and orders for a small mistake in train schedule washed it's hands from intervening in this case and train purchases have highly regulated tender process and very little wiggle room for rail companies. It's clearly a crime of sabotage under Art. 254a kk. Tender process does not matter in this case. We just need a competent prosecutor. https://sip.lex.pl/akty-prawne/dzu-dziennik-ustaw/kodeks-karny-16798683/art-254-a https://sip.lex.pl/akty-prawne/dzu-dziennik-ustaw/kodeks-kar...
- TomaszZielinski 3y ago
  Having read only that kk article, I'm not certain if trains are considered parts of the infrastructure?
  - KptMarchewa 3y ago
    It works for train vandalism - why wouldn't it work on industrial scale? For example, someone stole active train parts: https://orzeczenia.gdansk-poludnie.sr.gov.pl/content/$N/151015050005006_X_K_000731_2016_Uz_2017-10-09_001 https://orzeczenia.gdansk-poludnie.sr.gov.pl/content/$N/1510...
    - TomaszZielinski 3y ago
      I don't know, that's why I asked--for me "infrastructure" sounds like the immovable parts. Similarly to road infrastructure, which doesn't include cars. But it's just my armchair impression, I have no idea how the law works in this context. I quickly scanned the sentence you linked to, and art. 254a seems to be applied only to the theft of wires from tracks? Or am I missing something? I've tried googling "infrastruktura kolejowa", and it seems that Ustawa o transporcie kolejowym defines it in art. 4.1, referencing Appendix 1. And that Appendix only lists immovable stuff. But again, I'm not a lawyer and I'm aware that definitions from one act often don't apply to a different act, in different branch of law.
      - myself248 3y ago
        In the usage I'm familiar with (in the US), the entire rail network is considered "transportation infrastructure", from a national perspective. But from the perspective of just the rail network, the track and other infrastructure is considered separate from the rolling stock. I wonder: If the rolling stock becomes immobilized, does it now count as immovable stuff?
        comex 3y ago
        Reminds me of the recent Supreme Court case about whether a train is "in use" while parked at a railyard: https://www.scotusblog.com/2022/03/justices-search-for-the-line-on-use-of-a-locomotive/ https://www.scotusblog.com/2022/03/justices-search-for-the-l...
hindsightbias 3y ago
[flagged]
- TomaszZielinski 3y ago
  In this case the lower offer was 22mln PLN, whereas the manufacturer's offer was 25mln.
  - zelon88 3y ago
    And if the manufacturer could have justified the additional $3mln in cost besides "vendor lock in" maybe they wouldn't have to break the law to keep customers coming back.
    - TomaszZielinski 3y ago
      It's 3mln PLN, so more like $750k... It must have been worth it, right?
- TeMPOraL 3y ago
  Hypotheticals be hypotheticals, but here we don't have a case of the lowest bidder screwing up maintenance of a potentially dangerous piece of infrastructure; instead, we have the incumbent breaking aforementioned hardware on purpose, and blaming it on the lowest bidder. Honestly, I think China got this right. Business is business, but when you start screwing with critical infrastructure, a firing squad should be on the table. And in this case, at least months to years of prison.
- zamalek 3y ago
  It's also great to see others trusting a servicing shop that customers are forced to use no matter how sloppy or incompetent their work.
pixel8account 3y ago
It is also investigated by the Agency of Internal Security and I really doubt they don't have huge problems out of this. This is taken extremely seriously internally. There's a ton of evidence to prove what happened and they have no chance to somehow wiggle out of this. They're trying... by saying they were hacked. Yeah, the hackers somehow flashed firmware of trains services by competition, to brick the trains. GPS coordinates of competition rail segments were literally hardcoded.

by drra 3y ago

opliko 3y ago

Their newer variant, Impuls 2, is actually used outside of Poland too - Italian FSE operates 11 of them. Though considering they were hoping to continue their expansion into Italy I imagine they might not have sabotaged these trains (but who knows, maybe they're fine with burning even new customers).

KptMarchewa 3y ago

>This case is investigated by Central Anti-Corruption Bureau in Poland but I doubt it'll do much harm to Newag. The Office of Rail Transport of Poland that would spam rail company with complaints and orders for a small mistake in train schedule washed it's hands from intervening in this case and train purchases have highly regulated tender process and very little wiggle room for rail companies. It's clearly a crime of sabotage under Art. 254a kk. Tender process does not matter in this case. We just need a competent prosecutor. https://sip.lex.pl/akty-prawne/dzu-dziennik-ustaw/kodeks-karny-16798683/art-254-a https://sip.lex.pl/akty-prawne/dzu-dziennik-ustaw/kodeks-kar...

TomaszZielinski 3y ago
Having read only that kk article, I'm not certain if trains are considered parts of the infrastructure?
- KptMarchewa 3y ago
  It works for train vandalism - why wouldn't it work on industrial scale? For example, someone stole active train parts: https://orzeczenia.gdansk-poludnie.sr.gov.pl/content/$N/151015050005006_X_K_000731_2016_Uz_2017-10-09_001 https://orzeczenia.gdansk-poludnie.sr.gov.pl/content/$N/1510...
  - TomaszZielinski 3y ago
    I don't know, that's why I asked--for me "infrastructure" sounds like the immovable parts. Similarly to road infrastructure, which doesn't include cars. But it's just my armchair impression, I have no idea how the law works in this context. I quickly scanned the sentence you linked to, and art. 254a seems to be applied only to the theft of wires from tracks? Or am I missing something? I've tried googling "infrastruktura kolejowa", and it seems that Ustawa o transporcie kolejowym defines it in art. 4.1, referencing Appendix 1. And that Appendix only lists immovable stuff. But again, I'm not a lawyer and I'm aware that definitions from one act often don't apply to a different act, in different branch of law.
    - myself248 3y ago
      In the usage I'm familiar with (in the US), the entire rail network is considered "transportation infrastructure", from a national perspective. But from the perspective of just the rail network, the track and other infrastructure is considered separate from the rolling stock. I wonder: If the rolling stock becomes immobilized, does it now count as immovable stuff?
      - comex 3y ago
        Reminds me of the recent Supreme Court case about whether a train is "in use" while parked at a railyard: https://www.scotusblog.com/2022/03/justices-search-for-the-line-on-use-of-a-locomotive/ https://www.scotusblog.com/2022/03/justices-search-for-the-l...

hindsightbias 3y ago

[flagged]

TomaszZielinski 3y ago
In this case the lower offer was 22mln PLN, whereas the manufacturer's offer was 25mln.
- zelon88 3y ago
  And if the manufacturer could have justified the additional $3mln in cost besides "vendor lock in" maybe they wouldn't have to break the law to keep customers coming back.
  - TomaszZielinski 3y ago
    It's 3mln PLN, so more like $750k... It must have been worth it, right?
TeMPOraL 3y ago
Hypotheticals be hypotheticals, but here we don't have a case of the lowest bidder screwing up maintenance of a potentially dangerous piece of infrastructure; instead, we have the incumbent breaking aforementioned hardware on purpose, and blaming it on the lowest bidder. Honestly, I think China got this right. Business is business, but when you start screwing with critical infrastructure, a firing squad should be on the table. And in this case, at least months to years of prison.
zamalek 3y ago
It's also great to see others trusting a servicing shop that customers are forced to use no matter how sloppy or incompetent their work.

pixel8account 3y ago

It is also investigated by the Agency of Internal Security and I really doubt they don't have huge problems out of this. This is taken extremely seriously internally. There's a ton of evidence to prove what happened and they have no chance to somehow wiggle out of this. They're trying... by saying they were hacked. Yeah, the hackers somehow flashed firmware of trains services by competition, to brick the trains. GPS coordinates of competition rail segments were literally hardcoded.