14 ms·

Judge: Amazon "cannot claim shock" that bathroom spycams were used as advertised

253 points by MBCook 3y ago

fennecfoxy 3y ago
Yay, do guns next.
- harambae 3y ago
  It's not really the same as gun rights in America. There's no constitutional amendment ensuring the right to sell spycams on the internet without repercussions.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
graphe 3y ago
[flagged]
- ceejayoz 3y ago
  > Perhaps most alarming to the plaintiff, Amazon's Product Safety Team specifically inspected the camera to "ensure" that Amazon wasn't platforming a product being used to “infringe privacy,” “surreptitiously record others for sexual purposes,” or “create and store child sex abuse material.” This is the key bit that makes it different from your examples.
  - ReptileMan 3y ago
    That is kinda tricky because >Tech legal expert Eric Goldman wrote that a victory for the plaintiff could be considered "a dangerous ruling for the spy cam industry and for Amazon," because "the court’s analysis could indicate that all surreptitious hook cameras are categorically illegal to sell." That could prevent completely legal uses of cameras designed to look like clothes hooks, Goldman wrote, such as hypothetical in-home surveillance uses. How creative the amazon team has to be when reviewing the products. Do they have a duty that using the products in ways the seller has not written could achieve those goals. Personally I don't see non creepy uses for a bathroom towel camera. But in this case it is obvious that the one that must be sued is the person that used the camera. And suing amazon is obviously in bad faith and a money grab.
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      It's pretty easy actually: If a product has more creepy usages than that it has contrived good usages you should probably err on the side of caution.
      - pixl97 3y ago
        No, this is a pretty poor argument. Simply put anyone coming after your product can submit a completely unrealistic set of abuses they could do with your product whereas your products normal uses may only cover a few particular tasks. If you (the state) doesn't want a product on Amazon, you should be required to show meaningful evidence the product can both be harmful and is against the law to sell in your jurisdiction.
        jacquesm 3y ago
        Yes, but that pretty much proves the person is not acting in good faith. normal use of spycam -> spying. normal use of beer bottle -> holding beer.
        pixl97 3y ago
        > normal use of beer bottle -> holding beer. That's actually a poor argument if you want to get that level to detail. Bottles are just bottles. The label and fluid you put in define if it's a beer bottle. The same bottle could be a soda bottle. Again, coming back to cameras this will get problematic really fast. What if I just make a very small camera "for integration into other devices". I mean, sounds perfectly legal. But if one of those devices is a clothes hook at which point to either of the products become illegal?
        jacquesm 3y ago
        I think you just like arguing for arguing's sake so I will bow out here.
    - withinboredom 3y ago
  - graphe 3y ago
    Would you use that same protocol for all cameras, SSDs, HDDs, and microsd cards that could “create and store child sex abuse material"? Someone should be in prison, but it isn't Sony, hitachi's or AT&T's fault when their products are used in this way.
    - ceejayoz 3y ago
      SSDs don't tend to market themselves via description/pics as "great for child porn" though. The likelihood of a towel rack spy camera being used for ill purposes is substantially higher than an SSD.
      - graphe 3y ago
        This didn't say it was great for child porn either. Both cameras and storage classify under “create and store child sex abuse material.”
        ceejayoz 3y ago
        Sure, but hidden cameras whose marketing appears intentionally designed to hint at spying on bathrooms is not the same as "cameras and storage". Your argument is like going "GHB and ibuprofen are both drugs!" and claiming they're the same as a result. No.
    - bluGill 3y ago
      There are products that have legitimate uses but can be abused for something else; and there are products designed for abuse that also have legitimate uses. Small cameras have a lot of useful uses. However a camera disguised as a towel hook is clearly designed for use in a bathroom where it is unlikely it will be used for legitimate purposes. If you make a camera as a towel hook you need to have good know your customer policies to ensure only legitimate porn producers buy it. The general public should buy concealed cameras that don't look like things that you would find in a bathroom thus making it more likely if used in a bathroom they are found.
      - 3y ago
- xmprt 3y ago
  If Facebook showed illegal images on its platform and didn't do anything to counter that the I think most people would argue that it was Facebook's fault. Why is it so hard to imagine holding corporations to higher standards? And for all the examples you gave: Facebook marketplace has safety features to try to prevent robberies. Gun shops do background checks to avoid selling to murderers.
  - thfuran 3y ago
    They also don't usually advertise that their guns are the ideal pick for a school shooting.
  - duskwuff 3y ago
    > And for all the examples you gave: And, while we're at it: eBay has listing policies which prohibit certain classes of items from being sold (including hidden cameras!), and will take down listings which violate them. https://www.ebay.com/help/policies/prohibited-restricted-items/prohibited-restricted-items?id=4207 https://www.ebay.com/help/policies/prohibited-restricted-ite...
    - graphe 3y ago
      Great job they're doing. This is sponsored. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Car-Home-1080P-Wireless-4k-Spy-WiFi-Mini-tiny-Hidden-Small-Camera-DVR-Recorder-/256277569655 https://www.ebay.com/itm/Car-Home-1080P-Wireless-4k-Spy-WiFi...
  - ReptileMan 3y ago
    Because I am totally allowed to film myself with a bathroom towel camera in my bathroom. The product is legal even if more than a bit eyebrow raising. The owner of the product decided to break the law with it. Why do we have to sue the seller? The plaintiff didn't had any kind of interaction with amazon
- space_fountain 3y ago
  It's a pretty new thing to have online market places with the kind of scale that exists today while claiming no duty to know about the things being sold. If Walmart or your neighborhood mom and pop tried to sell this everyone would be up in arms so it's weird that some people think it's a good idea to structure society in a way where we strip any responsibility away. On the gun shop we do actually require some duty of care from them. You have to run a background check and I think advertising a gun for the use of committing crimes isn't allowed
  - gretch 3y ago
    I don’t think it’s new at all. Fb marketplace takes inspiration from Craigslist which takes inspiration from newspaper classified ads. If you went to a classified ad and bought a toaster or something and it was bunk, would you think about holding the newspaper accountable?
    - chickenpotpie 3y ago
      No, but I would if they sold bathroom cameras. The issue isn't of quality, it's an issue of legality
      - graphe 3y ago
        Have you seen some of the legit home cameras? They're not hard to hide either (according to YouTube). I looked on Amazon, if it was bought on eBay under a different name nobody would say anything. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CKHVD994/ https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CKHVD994/ this one is tiny and doesn't say bathroom or spy.
        chickenpotpie 3y ago
        The issue isn't of potential illegal use, it's an issue of explicit illegal use. The camera description specifically describes how it can be used for illegal purposes. There's a huge difference between selling "stump remover" and "spouse poison" even if they're the same chemical.
- fckgw 3y ago
  Uh, yes, eBay does actually police the items sold on their platforms.
jacquesm 3y ago
You wonder why they even have a review team if this passed.
- ceejayoz 3y ago
  To be able to tell press inquiries "we have a review team".
  - bluGill 3y ago
    Of course to the courts that means an effective review team, and so gets Amazon in more trouble for them not being effective. (note Amazon is not setup like ebay, and thus Ebay can get by without a review team in ways amazon cannot despite being similar)
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      Apparently they spent 8 months in court arguing this already. Think about that: instead of just admitting they fucked up they are running out the clock on the legal side. Insanity, that alone should be enough to double or triple any damages.
- belval 3y ago
  That part is confusing to me because it specifically calls out items that are for violating privacy. Any defense from "we are not responsible for how a product is used as long as it's legal" or "our safety team inspects products that could hurt people" (AC appliance without a properly grounded case) would have sounded much more reasonable to me. The reality of it is probably that reviewers can only spend ~1 minute per item before flagging it or not, the reviewer was a bit on "autopilot" and didn't flag it because it doesn't look like a camera at all.
  - bluGill 3y ago
    You cannot possibly review this in one minute. You need a team of different experts and they need time to think. If you saw this for one minute before looking at this article you probably wouldn't think about this use case - even though it is obvious once someone points it out. So Amazon needs to show they gave the review team enough time to think about this type of thing. Amazon might be able to get out of this if they can show the court a long enough checklist of things they did look for that this does pass. If that list is long enough (a term I specifically did not define!) they can argue they did due diligence, this is just different from everything they thought of and so it slipped threw the cracks. Of course the checklist better have a clear procedure for "something else not on this list" and a it needs to be clear anytime something not on the list is thought of that the process gets that new thing on the list. This is NOT easy or cheap.
metadat 3y ago
Is there an archive snapshot of the Towel bar Cam product page as displayed by Amazon? Kinda wondering what the product actually looks like, and how Amazon allowed it to be presented. Edit: whoa, @navels how'd you do that?! Thank you, amazing: https://web.archive.org/web/20230527030738/https://www.amazon.com/Clothes-Detection-Wireless-Security-Recorder/dp/B0BJDK7VLM/ https://web.archive.org/web/20230527030738/https://www.amazo... The product reviews are creepy. -- Rest of my comment for posterity: There's an image in TFA, though it's only a partial, limited view: https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/MS-v-Amazon-spycam-ad.png https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/MS-v-... Another article from yesterday contains a zoomed in image but no description: https://blog.ericgoldman.org/archives/2023/12/amazon-may-be-liable-for-merchants-spycam-m-s-v-amazon.htm https://blog.ericgoldman.org/archives/2023/12/amazon-may-be-... If we knew the product ID it could be checked for existence on archive.org. Anyhow, the research link I used is: https://www.google.com/search?q=%22it+wont+attract+attention%22+%22a+very+ordinary+hook%22 https://www.google.com/search?q=%22it+wont+attract+attention...
- navels 3y ago
  https://web.archive.org/web/20230527030738/https://www.amazon.com/Clothes-Detection-Wireless-Security-Recorder/dp/B0BJDK7VLM/ https://web.archive.org/web/20230527030738/https://www.amazo...
  - gnfargbl 3y ago
    That link doesn't mention anything about it being a "bathroom spy camera". It was sold as a nanny cam which is really a legitimate, if slightly distasteful, function. There is an image of it shown with towels on the hook, but it isn't stated or implied that it should be used to spy on people as they use the bathroom. I'm a big fan of holding tech companies to the same standards as other industries, but not a big fan of holding them to unreasonably high standards.
    - 0xEFF 3y ago
      It literally says spy cam in the product title.
Someone1234 3y ago
I love technology, but some things we're able to build today cheaply and using mass-market parts concerns me. Hidden cameras can be so good now that it is impractical for someone to find them. You may disagree with that assertion, but I'd put to you that maybe you just haven't seen some of the top-end products where the only clue is pin-hole sized, or even invisible like hidden behind the LCD screen of a set top box/clock/etc.
- onionisafruit 3y ago
  Or maybe you have seen some top-end products without realizing it.
  - TeMPOraL 3y ago
    Or, in this case, perhaps some of the top-end products saw you.
    - kennethrc 3y ago
      "In Soviet Russia, ..." OK, I'll see myself out :)
      - onionisafruit 3y ago
        In Soviet Russia top end products see themselves out
- pixl97 3y ago
  Hidden cameras, hidden microphones, hidden sensors, hidden wifi, etc. Miniaturization has and will lead to these devices becoming more powerful and everywhere in our environment.
  - ChainOfFools 3y ago
    Well one response could be that people develop a habit of using the bathroom or shower in the dark or near-dark whenever they're not entirely sure of the motives of whomever might maintain that bathroom. And a market for stupendously overpowered porrable infrared strobe lights that clip onto the back of your phone case will form alongside it. Whatever does develop as a response, one thing is certain:the victims bear the cost for defending themselves once again. thanks to an often overweening, at best misguided, and to be blunt, possibly self-interested motivation to protect the special interests of aggressors, predators and assholes at the victim's expense. See also: people whose response to someone pointing out that many aftermarket ( and increasingly, factory stock) headlamps are becoming bright enough to blind other drivers is to tell them, with a straight face, to wear sunglasses or get their windows tinted, or look away. At night. While driving.
kshacker 3y ago
So can I sell a camera with the following description? SpyCam Disclaimer: should not be used for spying
- btilly 3y ago
  There is historical precedent. My favorite were winemaking kits sold during Prohibition that told you what you needed to avoid doing, because doing that would make wine. https://grapecollective.com/articles/prohibitions-grape-bricks-how-to-not-make-wine https://grapecollective.com/articles/prohibitions-grape-bric...
  - unaindz 3y ago
    That's really funny, thanks for sharing. It's worth to point out that the article tells it was legal to make wine in your own home during the prohibition because of a loophole.
- mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
  It's a common trope in grey markets. Not sure to what extent this is still the case, but when I was messing around with greyzone drugs about a decade ago, they tended to be sold on technically legal, UK, Swedish, Polish etc web stores. They'd have names similar to illegal drugs they were analogues of and like descriptions of the effects. But have the disclaimer "not for human consumption. Research purposes only". Of course even the purportedly pure chemical products were unsuitable for actual research or standards use due to lack of attestation to purity(at least with most vendors) and so on. It didn't affect the legality, probably just a weak attempt to avoid potential liability.
- folmar 3y ago
  This is the situation of cannabis seeds in at least large part of the EU. You can have/buy/sell the seeds but it's illegal to grow them.
- bluGill 3y ago
  Maybe. Can you should legitimate uses that people actually buy this for? There are legal uses for a spyCam. Check with your local laws though as what is legal is different in different areas. For example you can use a spyCam to see who/what is knocking over your garbage can - anything you film would be legal. I'm sure there are a lot of other legal uses for a spyCam.
bdw5204 3y ago
A spy camera that looks like a towel hook seems like a product that should be illegal to sell. For what legitimate purpose would somebody want a towel hook camera? Don't most people put towel hooks in bathrooms? It seems perfectly reasonable to hold Amazon legally responsible for selling this product even if it was a 3rd party seller (not clear from the article). A product whose intended use is to secretly record videos of people in settings where they will probably not be wearing clothes should be unlawful to sell just as it is (or should be) unlawful to knowingly record such videos without informed consent.
- nomdep 3y ago
  “Should be illegal” is not “it is illegal”. So no, Amazon can’t be legally responsible for selling this legal product more than it is for selling kitchen knives
- notatoad 3y ago
  "you can't sell a spy cam that looks like a towel hook" is sort of too broad and too specific to be a good law. what does "looks like a towel hook" actually mean? a law like this would end up having some unintended consequences, where bad actors use it for something like claiming all their competitors products look like towel hooks. i think what's happening here is really the ideal solution: you can sell a camera that looks like anything, but if somebody uses the towel-hook spy cam that you sold for it's obvious intended purpose, you're liable for the damages.
  - SV_BubbleTime 3y ago
    I'm not sure I can agree with either of you. I definitely don't agree with "thing I don't like should be illegal". And I can't really agree with "People who sold something I don't like should be liable for it's use". I think the "blame" for objects should lie in the people that misuse them. Now, obviously, it's a little hard to come up with legitimate reasons to have a towel hook camera. However... All you're asking for is smaller cameras. To which we restart this whole thing with "These super small cameras should be illegal".
Sanzig 3y ago
Good. Amazon has been happy to rake in commissions for years from dodgy products sold by third party sellers (uncertified electrical equipment, scam flash drives/SSDs, spycams, etc) and then turn around and blame the marketplace sellers when the inevitable happens. Unlike eBay, Amazon goes to great lengths to sow confusion about what it sells versus its marketplace participants. The average user thinks that when they buy something off Amazon, they're buying something procured and vetted by Amazon, when it's really a marketplace seller using Amazon's logistics services. Well, they can't have it both ways, either Amazon is a well vetted marketplace or the wild west. They can't project one image to their customers and claim another in court.
- nomdep 3y ago
  This has absolutely ANYTHING to do with the article. The customer is not complaining, the customer is the criminal here. But somehow, “Amazon bad”
  - richbell 3y ago
    Amazon is bad because: > Amazon has been happy to rake in commissions for years from dodgy products sold by third party sellers (uncertified electrical equipment, scam flash drives/SSDs, spycams, etc)...
- space_fountain 3y ago
  And I'm not convinced we need a wild west either, at least if it's also more or less impossible to trace responsibility back to the producer. It's pretty new for something like Amazon to exist with the ability to market (through product recommendations), handle payments, and handle shipping logistics for a product that they need never even see. It means it's easy for manufacturers like this to basically get away scot free because they have to invest literally nothing in the US that can get taken away in the event that they turn out to be doing something like this. Some of the lines on the product page are chilling. > 【Motion Detection Mode】 When you turn on its motion detection mode, the camera will automatically start to record a video when motion is detected. You do not need to worry about missing any important moments, ensure the security of your home, garage or anywhere you want. Every line they're sure to end like this is being used for home security, but idk that someone could read this and think that was true
yieldcrv 3y ago
Its just denying a “motion to dismiss” pretty low hanging but it is federal district court, a bit more serious than a West Virginia state court fun stakes
- thsksbd 3y ago
  this is a trial you want dismissed. After that you try your darndest to settle. After all, do you really want a jury of 6 men (ie dads of little girls), a 6 women (ie identifying with the victim) adjudicating this? When you're one of the most despised companies in America? Settle Amazon. Settle quickly.
  - wkat4242 3y ago
    A case like this shouldn't be allowed to settle. It should go in the criminal court and set a clear precedent that this is not ok.
    - thsksbd 3y ago
      I agree, as a prosecutor I wouldn't offer a plea. But the defense? They should jump on any plea they can get.
binary132 3y ago
I think it’s evil that they would even defend themselves tbh.
- thsksbd 3y ago
  Bastards like this being able to defend themselves as best as possible is the corner stone of our rights. What I think is evil is that the firing squad isn't on the table for the marketing department.
  - binary132 3y ago
    Ability to and ethicality of doing so are two different things.
neilv 3y ago
I'd expect Amazon product safety people to know what these are. Spycams have been widely advertised for decades, often overtly targeted specifically for use of spying on women. For example, pretty early in Web history (before WiFi and then IoT were popular), "X10" cameras were advertised heavily: https://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~kuan/x10.html https://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~kuan/x10.html
- mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
  I mean it's a spy camera that only makes sense in a bathroom. There's even a showerhead one sold on Amazon. I'm not even sure it's humanly possible to look at one of these and not realise the primary use case is criminal. The only conclusion I'm left to draw from this is either that no actual review takes place, or that the review is merely there to ascertain "is this product literally illegal right now?"
  - autoexec 3y ago
    You can create convoluted excuses for the showercam too. For example, cases where you wanted to keep an eye on a babysitter while they bathed your child or a nurse or caretaker bathing an adult/elderly family member who was disabled.
    - lakpan 3y ago
      Ph-lease! You don’t need to be that damn close to “keep an eye on”, and actually I don’t think you’d really want to be that close.
- isk517 3y ago
  Holy crap, that one that flat out says 'We are not responsible for what you do with this camera'. Usually that is something they slip into the fine print, not make the main point of the advertisement.
scrollbar 3y ago
The article links to an amazon search results page for "bathroom spy camera" Here is the first result: "1080P Bathroom spy Shower Nozzle Hidden Spy Security Cameras Mini Camera DVR 32GB,Mini Nanny Cam Smart Home, Indoor Outdoor Baby Camera" https://www.amazon.com/Bathroom-Shower-Security-Cameras-Outdoor/dp/B0CMWSZG6N/ref=sr_1_4?crid=WK1AEHNZLNQE&keywords=%22bathroom+spy+camera%22&qid=1701724421&sprefix=bathroom+spy+camera+%2Caps%2C96&sr=8-4&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.ac2169a1-b668-44b9-8bd0-5ec63b24bcb5 https://www.amazon.com/Bathroom-Shower-Security-Cameras-Outd... Kind of incredible that this still continues. They at least give some kind of cover for the use case of a "baby camera" but honestly even that feels so flimsy. This is disturbing.
- walrus01 3y ago
  the "baby camera" part is just the vendor keyword-stuffing for search results so that their product will show to more people.
- wkat4242 3y ago
  > "This is a 1080P mini Shower shelf spy camera that looks like an ordinary can of Shower shelf. The camera is so well hidden that no one will know that the Shower shelf actually contains a mini bathroom spy camera. Because it is so well hidden, you can put it anywhere, even in the bathroom, and no one will be suspicious. " I don't know who buys their "Shower shelves" in cans but this whole blurb makes no sense. The picture shows a shower head, not a shelf or a can. The malicious intent is clear at the end of the quoted paragraph though. Not to mention that I wouldn't know where else to use a shower head other than "even in the bathroom".
2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
Why can't the third party seller be held accountable? Why do we allow unaccountable third party sellers carte blanche access to US consumers? The way that I see it if someone is harmed then they are due justice. If Amazon lets dodgy international third party sellers run hog wild and harm consumers then Amazon should be at fault here. Otherwise there is no incentive to police these things, there are victims, Amazon makes money, and sellers aren't held to account. It's ridiculous.
Phil_Latio 3y ago
> spycam industry I believe China banned them. There are still spycams from chinese vendors, but I think they only supply foreign customers. Anyone can confirm or has more insight?
hnburnsy 3y ago
Sort of related... https://www.kxan.com/investigations/son-of-buc-ees-co-founder-arrested-on-28-invasive-visual-recording-charges/ https://www.kxan.com/investigations/son-of-buc-ees-co-founde... >The son of a co-founder of the nationally renowned Buc-ee’s convenience store was arrested Tuesday in Travis County and faces 28 separate state jail felony charges of invasive visual recordings. A woman reported she and a few friends were visiting the lake house with Mitchell Wasek when one friend, who works cybersecurity for the Department of Defense, noticed a charging port with a hidden camera plugged into the wall of their bathroom, court records state. The group of friends left with the camera and on its micro-card found dozens of videos of themselves and other people in bathrooms and bedrooms at the lake house as well as at Mitchell Wasek’s Dallas apartment, according to court records. Another story reports... >Amazon records linked purchases of a half-dozen spy cameras and hidden cameras to Mitchell Wasek, the affidavit says.
m4dc4pXXX 3y ago
Gross. You can do the search on amazon (“bathroom spy camera”) and there are tons of results. One is even a shower nozzle !
iJohnDoe 3y ago
Welcome to every AirBNB.
k12sosse 3y ago
How do you prove a previous tenant did not put the device in place,and forget it on their way out? OR, plan to rent again in the future with hopes of picking it up?
wkat4242 3y ago
> Tech legal expert Eric Goldman wrote that a victory for the plaintiff could be considered "a dangerous ruling for the spy cam industry and for Amazon," TIL there is a whole "spy cam industry". Well, good that they are being ruled against. There is no legit use case for this product.

253 points by MBCook 3y ago

fennecfoxy 3y ago

Yay, do guns next.

harambae 3y ago
It's not really the same as gun rights in America. There's no constitutional amendment ensuring the right to sell spycams on the internet without repercussions.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

graphe 3y ago

[flagged]

ceejayoz 3y ago
> Perhaps most alarming to the plaintiff, Amazon's Product Safety Team specifically inspected the camera to "ensure" that Amazon wasn't platforming a product being used to “infringe privacy,” “surreptitiously record others for sexual purposes,” or “create and store child sex abuse material.” This is the key bit that makes it different from your examples.
- ReptileMan 3y ago
  That is kinda tricky because >Tech legal expert Eric Goldman wrote that a victory for the plaintiff could be considered "a dangerous ruling for the spy cam industry and for Amazon," because "the court’s analysis could indicate that all surreptitious hook cameras are categorically illegal to sell." That could prevent completely legal uses of cameras designed to look like clothes hooks, Goldman wrote, such as hypothetical in-home surveillance uses. How creative the amazon team has to be when reviewing the products. Do they have a duty that using the products in ways the seller has not written could achieve those goals. Personally I don't see non creepy uses for a bathroom towel camera. But in this case it is obvious that the one that must be sued is the person that used the camera. And suing amazon is obviously in bad faith and a money grab.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    It's pretty easy actually: If a product has more creepy usages than that it has contrived good usages you should probably err on the side of caution.
    - pixl97 3y ago
      No, this is a pretty poor argument. Simply put anyone coming after your product can submit a completely unrealistic set of abuses they could do with your product whereas your products normal uses may only cover a few particular tasks. If you (the state) doesn't want a product on Amazon, you should be required to show meaningful evidence the product can both be harmful and is against the law to sell in your jurisdiction.
      - jacquesm 3y ago
        Yes, but that pretty much proves the person is not acting in good faith. normal use of spycam -> spying. normal use of beer bottle -> holding beer.
        pixl97 3y ago
        > normal use of beer bottle -> holding beer. That's actually a poor argument if you want to get that level to detail. Bottles are just bottles. The label and fluid you put in define if it's a beer bottle. The same bottle could be a soda bottle. Again, coming back to cameras this will get problematic really fast. What if I just make a very small camera "for integration into other devices". I mean, sounds perfectly legal. But if one of those devices is a clothes hook at which point to either of the products become illegal?
        jacquesm 3y ago
        I think you just like arguing for arguing's sake so I will bow out here.
  - withinboredom 3y ago
- graphe 3y ago
  Would you use that same protocol for all cameras, SSDs, HDDs, and microsd cards that could “create and store child sex abuse material"? Someone should be in prison, but it isn't Sony, hitachi's or AT&T's fault when their products are used in this way.
  - ceejayoz 3y ago
    SSDs don't tend to market themselves via description/pics as "great for child porn" though. The likelihood of a towel rack spy camera being used for ill purposes is substantially higher than an SSD.
    - graphe 3y ago
      This didn't say it was great for child porn either. Both cameras and storage classify under “create and store child sex abuse material.”
      - ceejayoz 3y ago
        Sure, but hidden cameras whose marketing appears intentionally designed to hint at spying on bathrooms is not the same as "cameras and storage". Your argument is like going "GHB and ibuprofen are both drugs!" and claiming they're the same as a result. No.
  - bluGill 3y ago
    There are products that have legitimate uses but can be abused for something else; and there are products designed for abuse that also have legitimate uses. Small cameras have a lot of useful uses. However a camera disguised as a towel hook is clearly designed for use in a bathroom where it is unlikely it will be used for legitimate purposes. If you make a camera as a towel hook you need to have good know your customer policies to ensure only legitimate porn producers buy it. The general public should buy concealed cameras that don't look like things that you would find in a bathroom thus making it more likely if used in a bathroom they are found.
    - 3y ago
xmprt 3y ago
If Facebook showed illegal images on its platform and didn't do anything to counter that the I think most people would argue that it was Facebook's fault. Why is it so hard to imagine holding corporations to higher standards? And for all the examples you gave: Facebook marketplace has safety features to try to prevent robberies. Gun shops do background checks to avoid selling to murderers.
- thfuran 3y ago
  They also don't usually advertise that their guns are the ideal pick for a school shooting.
- duskwuff 3y ago
  > And for all the examples you gave: And, while we're at it: eBay has listing policies which prohibit certain classes of items from being sold (including hidden cameras!), and will take down listings which violate them. https://www.ebay.com/help/policies/prohibited-restricted-items/prohibited-restricted-items?id=4207 https://www.ebay.com/help/policies/prohibited-restricted-ite...
  - graphe 3y ago
    Great job they're doing. This is sponsored. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Car-Home-1080P-Wireless-4k-Spy-WiFi-Mini-tiny-Hidden-Small-Camera-DVR-Recorder-/256277569655 https://www.ebay.com/itm/Car-Home-1080P-Wireless-4k-Spy-WiFi...
- ReptileMan 3y ago
  Because I am totally allowed to film myself with a bathroom towel camera in my bathroom. The product is legal even if more than a bit eyebrow raising. The owner of the product decided to break the law with it. Why do we have to sue the seller? The plaintiff didn't had any kind of interaction with amazon
space_fountain 3y ago
It's a pretty new thing to have online market places with the kind of scale that exists today while claiming no duty to know about the things being sold. If Walmart or your neighborhood mom and pop tried to sell this everyone would be up in arms so it's weird that some people think it's a good idea to structure society in a way where we strip any responsibility away. On the gun shop we do actually require some duty of care from them. You have to run a background check and I think advertising a gun for the use of committing crimes isn't allowed
- gretch 3y ago
  I don’t think it’s new at all. Fb marketplace takes inspiration from Craigslist which takes inspiration from newspaper classified ads. If you went to a classified ad and bought a toaster or something and it was bunk, would you think about holding the newspaper accountable?
  - chickenpotpie 3y ago
    No, but I would if they sold bathroom cameras. The issue isn't of quality, it's an issue of legality
    - graphe 3y ago
      Have you seen some of the legit home cameras? They're not hard to hide either (according to YouTube). I looked on Amazon, if it was bought on eBay under a different name nobody would say anything. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CKHVD994/ https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CKHVD994/ this one is tiny and doesn't say bathroom or spy.
      - chickenpotpie 3y ago
        The issue isn't of potential illegal use, it's an issue of explicit illegal use. The camera description specifically describes how it can be used for illegal purposes. There's a huge difference between selling "stump remover" and "spouse poison" even if they're the same chemical.
fckgw 3y ago
Uh, yes, eBay does actually police the items sold on their platforms.

jacquesm 3y ago

You wonder why they even have a review team if this passed.

ceejayoz 3y ago
To be able to tell press inquiries "we have a review team".
- bluGill 3y ago
  Of course to the courts that means an effective review team, and so gets Amazon in more trouble for them not being effective. (note Amazon is not setup like ebay, and thus Ebay can get by without a review team in ways amazon cannot despite being similar)
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    Apparently they spent 8 months in court arguing this already. Think about that: instead of just admitting they fucked up they are running out the clock on the legal side. Insanity, that alone should be enough to double or triple any damages.
belval 3y ago
That part is confusing to me because it specifically calls out items that are for violating privacy. Any defense from "we are not responsible for how a product is used as long as it's legal" or "our safety team inspects products that could hurt people" (AC appliance without a properly grounded case) would have sounded much more reasonable to me. The reality of it is probably that reviewers can only spend ~1 minute per item before flagging it or not, the reviewer was a bit on "autopilot" and didn't flag it because it doesn't look like a camera at all.
- bluGill 3y ago
  You cannot possibly review this in one minute. You need a team of different experts and they need time to think. If you saw this for one minute before looking at this article you probably wouldn't think about this use case - even though it is obvious once someone points it out. So Amazon needs to show they gave the review team enough time to think about this type of thing. Amazon might be able to get out of this if they can show the court a long enough checklist of things they did look for that this does pass. If that list is long enough (a term I specifically did not define!) they can argue they did due diligence, this is just different from everything they thought of and so it slipped threw the cracks. Of course the checklist better have a clear procedure for "something else not on this list" and a it needs to be clear anytime something not on the list is thought of that the process gets that new thing on the list. This is NOT easy or cheap.

metadat 3y ago

Is there an archive snapshot of the Towel bar Cam product page as displayed by Amazon? Kinda wondering what the product actually looks like, and how Amazon allowed it to be presented. Edit: whoa, @navels how'd you do that?! Thank you, amazing: https://web.archive.org/web/20230527030738/https://www.amazon.com/Clothes-Detection-Wireless-Security-Recorder/dp/B0BJDK7VLM/ https://web.archive.org/web/20230527030738/https://www.amazo... The product reviews are creepy. -- Rest of my comment for posterity: There's an image in TFA, though it's only a partial, limited view: https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/MS-v-Amazon-spycam-ad.png https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/MS-v-... Another article from yesterday contains a zoomed in image but no description: https://blog.ericgoldman.org/archives/2023/12/amazon-may-be-liable-for-merchants-spycam-m-s-v-amazon.htm https://blog.ericgoldman.org/archives/2023/12/amazon-may-be-... If we knew the product ID it could be checked for existence on archive.org. Anyhow, the research link I used is: https://www.google.com/search?q=%22it+wont+attract+attention%22+%22a+very+ordinary+hook%22 https://www.google.com/search?q=%22it+wont+attract+attention...

navels 3y ago
https://web.archive.org/web/20230527030738/https://www.amazon.com/Clothes-Detection-Wireless-Security-Recorder/dp/B0BJDK7VLM/ https://web.archive.org/web/20230527030738/https://www.amazo...
- gnfargbl 3y ago
  That link doesn't mention anything about it being a "bathroom spy camera". It was sold as a nanny cam which is really a legitimate, if slightly distasteful, function. There is an image of it shown with towels on the hook, but it isn't stated or implied that it should be used to spy on people as they use the bathroom. I'm a big fan of holding tech companies to the same standards as other industries, but not a big fan of holding them to unreasonably high standards.
  - 0xEFF 3y ago
    It literally says spy cam in the product title.

Someone1234 3y ago

I love technology, but some things we're able to build today cheaply and using mass-market parts concerns me. Hidden cameras can be so good now that it is impractical for someone to find them. You may disagree with that assertion, but I'd put to you that maybe you just haven't seen some of the top-end products where the only clue is pin-hole sized, or even invisible like hidden behind the LCD screen of a set top box/clock/etc.

onionisafruit 3y ago
Or maybe you have seen some top-end products without realizing it.
- TeMPOraL 3y ago
  Or, in this case, perhaps some of the top-end products saw you.
  - kennethrc 3y ago
    "In Soviet Russia, ..." OK, I'll see myself out :)
    - onionisafruit 3y ago
      In Soviet Russia top end products see themselves out
pixl97 3y ago
Hidden cameras, hidden microphones, hidden sensors, hidden wifi, etc. Miniaturization has and will lead to these devices becoming more powerful and everywhere in our environment.
- ChainOfFools 3y ago
  Well one response could be that people develop a habit of using the bathroom or shower in the dark or near-dark whenever they're not entirely sure of the motives of whomever might maintain that bathroom. And a market for stupendously overpowered porrable infrared strobe lights that clip onto the back of your phone case will form alongside it. Whatever does develop as a response, one thing is certain:the victims bear the cost for defending themselves once again. thanks to an often overweening, at best misguided, and to be blunt, possibly self-interested motivation to protect the special interests of aggressors, predators and assholes at the victim's expense. See also: people whose response to someone pointing out that many aftermarket ( and increasingly, factory stock) headlamps are becoming bright enough to blind other drivers is to tell them, with a straight face, to wear sunglasses or get their windows tinted, or look away. At night. While driving.

kshacker 3y ago

So can I sell a camera with the following description? SpyCam Disclaimer: should not be used for spying

btilly 3y ago
There is historical precedent. My favorite were winemaking kits sold during Prohibition that told you what you needed to avoid doing, because doing that would make wine. https://grapecollective.com/articles/prohibitions-grape-bricks-how-to-not-make-wine https://grapecollective.com/articles/prohibitions-grape-bric...
- unaindz 3y ago
  That's really funny, thanks for sharing. It's worth to point out that the article tells it was legal to make wine in your own home during the prohibition because of a loophole.
mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
It's a common trope in grey markets. Not sure to what extent this is still the case, but when I was messing around with greyzone drugs about a decade ago, they tended to be sold on technically legal, UK, Swedish, Polish etc web stores. They'd have names similar to illegal drugs they were analogues of and like descriptions of the effects. But have the disclaimer "not for human consumption. Research purposes only". Of course even the purportedly pure chemical products were unsuitable for actual research or standards use due to lack of attestation to purity(at least with most vendors) and so on. It didn't affect the legality, probably just a weak attempt to avoid potential liability.
folmar 3y ago
This is the situation of cannabis seeds in at least large part of the EU. You can have/buy/sell the seeds but it's illegal to grow them.
bluGill 3y ago
Maybe. Can you should legitimate uses that people actually buy this for? There are legal uses for a spyCam. Check with your local laws though as what is legal is different in different areas. For example you can use a spyCam to see who/what is knocking over your garbage can - anything you film would be legal. I'm sure there are a lot of other legal uses for a spyCam.

bdw5204 3y ago

A spy camera that looks like a towel hook seems like a product that should be illegal to sell. For what legitimate purpose would somebody want a towel hook camera? Don't most people put towel hooks in bathrooms? It seems perfectly reasonable to hold Amazon legally responsible for selling this product even if it was a 3rd party seller (not clear from the article). A product whose intended use is to secretly record videos of people in settings where they will probably not be wearing clothes should be unlawful to sell just as it is (or should be) unlawful to knowingly record such videos without informed consent.

nomdep 3y ago
“Should be illegal” is not “it is illegal”. So no, Amazon can’t be legally responsible for selling this legal product more than it is for selling kitchen knives
notatoad 3y ago
"you can't sell a spy cam that looks like a towel hook" is sort of too broad and too specific to be a good law. what does "looks like a towel hook" actually mean? a law like this would end up having some unintended consequences, where bad actors use it for something like claiming all their competitors products look like towel hooks. i think what's happening here is really the ideal solution: you can sell a camera that looks like anything, but if somebody uses the towel-hook spy cam that you sold for it's obvious intended purpose, you're liable for the damages.
- SV_BubbleTime 3y ago
  I'm not sure I can agree with either of you. I definitely don't agree with "thing I don't like should be illegal". And I can't really agree with "People who sold something I don't like should be liable for it's use". I think the "blame" for objects should lie in the people that misuse them. Now, obviously, it's a little hard to come up with legitimate reasons to have a towel hook camera. However... All you're asking for is smaller cameras. To which we restart this whole thing with "These super small cameras should be illegal".

Sanzig 3y ago

Good. Amazon has been happy to rake in commissions for years from dodgy products sold by third party sellers (uncertified electrical equipment, scam flash drives/SSDs, spycams, etc) and then turn around and blame the marketplace sellers when the inevitable happens. Unlike eBay, Amazon goes to great lengths to sow confusion about what it sells versus its marketplace participants. The average user thinks that when they buy something off Amazon, they're buying something procured and vetted by Amazon, when it's really a marketplace seller using Amazon's logistics services. Well, they can't have it both ways, either Amazon is a well vetted marketplace or the wild west. They can't project one image to their customers and claim another in court.

nomdep 3y ago
This has absolutely ANYTHING to do with the article. The customer is not complaining, the customer is the criminal here. But somehow, “Amazon bad”
- richbell 3y ago
  Amazon is bad because: > Amazon has been happy to rake in commissions for years from dodgy products sold by third party sellers (uncertified electrical equipment, scam flash drives/SSDs, spycams, etc)...
space_fountain 3y ago
And I'm not convinced we need a wild west either, at least if it's also more or less impossible to trace responsibility back to the producer. It's pretty new for something like Amazon to exist with the ability to market (through product recommendations), handle payments, and handle shipping logistics for a product that they need never even see. It means it's easy for manufacturers like this to basically get away scot free because they have to invest literally nothing in the US that can get taken away in the event that they turn out to be doing something like this. Some of the lines on the product page are chilling. > 【Motion Detection Mode】 When you turn on its motion detection mode, the camera will automatically start to record a video when motion is detected. You do not need to worry about missing any important moments, ensure the security of your home, garage or anywhere you want. Every line they're sure to end like this is being used for home security, but idk that someone could read this and think that was true

yieldcrv 3y ago

Its just denying a “motion to dismiss” pretty low hanging but it is federal district court, a bit more serious than a West Virginia state court fun stakes

thsksbd 3y ago
this is a trial you want dismissed. After that you try your darndest to settle. After all, do you really want a jury of 6 men (ie dads of little girls), a 6 women (ie identifying with the victim) adjudicating this? When you're one of the most despised companies in America? Settle Amazon. Settle quickly.
- wkat4242 3y ago
  A case like this shouldn't be allowed to settle. It should go in the criminal court and set a clear precedent that this is not ok.
  - thsksbd 3y ago
    I agree, as a prosecutor I wouldn't offer a plea. But the defense? They should jump on any plea they can get.

binary132 3y ago

I think it’s evil that they would even defend themselves tbh.

thsksbd 3y ago
Bastards like this being able to defend themselves as best as possible is the corner stone of our rights. What I think is evil is that the firing squad isn't on the table for the marketing department.
- binary132 3y ago
  Ability to and ethicality of doing so are two different things.

neilv 3y ago

I'd expect Amazon product safety people to know what these are. Spycams have been widely advertised for decades, often overtly targeted specifically for use of spying on women. For example, pretty early in Web history (before WiFi and then IoT were popular), "X10" cameras were advertised heavily: https://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~kuan/x10.html https://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~kuan/x10.html

mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
I mean it's a spy camera that only makes sense in a bathroom. There's even a showerhead one sold on Amazon. I'm not even sure it's humanly possible to look at one of these and not realise the primary use case is criminal. The only conclusion I'm left to draw from this is either that no actual review takes place, or that the review is merely there to ascertain "is this product literally illegal right now?"
- autoexec 3y ago
  You can create convoluted excuses for the showercam too. For example, cases where you wanted to keep an eye on a babysitter while they bathed your child or a nurse or caretaker bathing an adult/elderly family member who was disabled.
  - lakpan 3y ago
    Ph-lease! You don’t need to be that damn close to “keep an eye on”, and actually I don’t think you’d really want to be that close.
isk517 3y ago
Holy crap, that one that flat out says 'We are not responsible for what you do with this camera'. Usually that is something they slip into the fine print, not make the main point of the advertisement.

scrollbar 3y ago

The article links to an amazon search results page for "bathroom spy camera" Here is the first result: "1080P Bathroom spy Shower Nozzle Hidden Spy Security Cameras Mini Camera DVR 32GB,Mini Nanny Cam Smart Home, Indoor Outdoor Baby Camera" https://www.amazon.com/Bathroom-Shower-Security-Cameras-Outdoor/dp/B0CMWSZG6N/ref=sr_1_4?crid=WK1AEHNZLNQE&keywords=%22bathroom+spy+camera%22&qid=1701724421&sprefix=bathroom+spy+camera+%2Caps%2C96&sr=8-4&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.ac2169a1-b668-44b9-8bd0-5ec63b24bcb5 https://www.amazon.com/Bathroom-Shower-Security-Cameras-Outd... Kind of incredible that this still continues. They at least give some kind of cover for the use case of a "baby camera" but honestly even that feels so flimsy. This is disturbing.

walrus01 3y ago
the "baby camera" part is just the vendor keyword-stuffing for search results so that their product will show to more people.
wkat4242 3y ago
> "This is a 1080P mini Shower shelf spy camera that looks like an ordinary can of Shower shelf. The camera is so well hidden that no one will know that the Shower shelf actually contains a mini bathroom spy camera. Because it is so well hidden, you can put it anywhere, even in the bathroom, and no one will be suspicious. " I don't know who buys their "Shower shelves" in cans but this whole blurb makes no sense. The picture shows a shower head, not a shelf or a can. The malicious intent is clear at the end of the quoted paragraph though. Not to mention that I wouldn't know where else to use a shower head other than "even in the bathroom".

2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago

Why can't the third party seller be held accountable? Why do we allow unaccountable third party sellers carte blanche access to US consumers? The way that I see it if someone is harmed then they are due justice. If Amazon lets dodgy international third party sellers run hog wild and harm consumers then Amazon should be at fault here. Otherwise there is no incentive to police these things, there are victims, Amazon makes money, and sellers aren't held to account. It's ridiculous.

Phil_Latio 3y ago

> spycam industry I believe China banned them. There are still spycams from chinese vendors, but I think they only supply foreign customers. Anyone can confirm or has more insight?

hnburnsy 3y ago

Sort of related... https://www.kxan.com/investigations/son-of-buc-ees-co-founder-arrested-on-28-invasive-visual-recording-charges/ https://www.kxan.com/investigations/son-of-buc-ees-co-founde... >The son of a co-founder of the nationally renowned Buc-ee’s convenience store was arrested Tuesday in Travis County and faces 28 separate state jail felony charges of invasive visual recordings. A woman reported she and a few friends were visiting the lake house with Mitchell Wasek when one friend, who works cybersecurity for the Department of Defense, noticed a charging port with a hidden camera plugged into the wall of their bathroom, court records state. The group of friends left with the camera and on its micro-card found dozens of videos of themselves and other people in bathrooms and bedrooms at the lake house as well as at Mitchell Wasek’s Dallas apartment, according to court records. Another story reports... >Amazon records linked purchases of a half-dozen spy cameras and hidden cameras to Mitchell Wasek, the affidavit says.

m4dc4pXXX 3y ago

Gross. You can do the search on amazon (“bathroom spy camera”) and there are tons of results. One is even a shower nozzle !

iJohnDoe 3y ago

Welcome to every AirBNB.

k12sosse 3y ago

How do you prove a previous tenant did not put the device in place,and forget it on their way out? OR, plan to rent again in the future with hopes of picking it up?

wkat4242 3y ago

> Tech legal expert Eric Goldman wrote that a victory for the plaintiff could be considered "a dangerous ruling for the spy cam industry and for Amazon," TIL there is a whole "spy cam industry". Well, good that they are being ruled against. There is no legit use case for this product.