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Modern automotive electronics will lead to a mechanical revolution [video]

80 points by walterbell 3y ago

tw04 3y ago
Just, no. A taillight short doesn’t cause the radio not to work because of canbus. I have no idea what this nonsense is doing here but a guy advocating for carbureted ICE engines because “computers and electronics bad” in 2023 shouldn’t be take seriously on this site of all places.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  I can easily imagine how that particular fault could occur. So I wouldn't rule out this particular complaint without having a thorough look at the schematic of the vehicle involved to see through what pathways the CAN bus or the radio itself (usually on a separate bus, but not always) could be drawn high or low. That's the problem with a bus: if you force it low or high that's effectively a denial-of-service. I've had a case recently where a radio locked up hard because of a CAN bus issue that had nothing to do with the radio at all... (2005 MB CLS). That was quite the headscratcher and it took multiple people with a lot of gear to debug the problem to the point that we figured out what the culprit was (a little box on the main CAN bus embedded quite far away from the radio that apparently controlled the power to the console portion).
  - pvg 3y ago
    That's the problem with a bus: if you force it low or high that's effectively a denial-of-service. This obviously doesn't always happen in reality but CAN is supposed detect/deal with that - pegged bus should be detectable, bad nodes are supposed to float, etc.
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      In the presence of moisture and a pulsed LED driver all bets are off.
  - chongli 3y ago
    CANbus is on the way out. The future of networking in cars is Ethernet. A proper switched network with TSN [1] can dramatically cut down on the amount of copper in the car while increasing bandwidth and reliability. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time-Sensitive_Networking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time-Sensitive_Networking
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      My car has a regular good old wiring hardness to the rear lights and there isn't any electronics in there. For increased reliability.
    - RealityVoid 3y ago
      The problem with Ethernet is that it's (usually) not a bus. CAN is still plenty used in newer projects and they're getting even a newer higher bandwidth version.
      - chongli 3y ago
        Ethernet in cars is based on the idea of putting a switch right on the die of all your microcontrollers. Then every device has multiple Ethernet links and helps to route traffic on the network. This way there’s no bulky wiring harness (bus) and everything connects with a mesh topology with single links between devices. From what I’ve heard, it can save about 100lbs of wiring per car!
        RealityVoid 3y ago
        Sounds like a routing nightmare. Do you have a more detailed reference about this? Full disclosure, I work in automotive SW, but maybe I'm not working in the right ecu to see this. Timelines for these projects are quite long.
        chongli 3y ago
        I worked on the networking side at NXP Semiconductors who are building the chips to do all of this stuff. Here's an example of one of their recent devices built with these sorts of applications (automotive and industrial) in mind [1]. They've partnered with Bosch and TSMC on this [2]. Here's Bosch's description of the tech [3]. [1] https://www.nxp.com/products/processors-and-microcontrollers/arm-processors/i-mx-applications-processors/i-mx-9-processors/i-mx-95-applications-processor-family-high-performance-safety-enabled-platform-with-eiq-neutron-npu:iMX95 https://www.nxp.com/products/processors-and-microcontrollers... [2] https://www.nxp.com/company/about-nxp/tsmc-bosch-infineon-and-nxp-establish-joint-venture-to-bring-advanced-semiconductor-manufacturing-to-europe:NW-ESMC https://www.nxp.com/company/about-nxp/tsmc-bosch-infineon-an... [3] https://www.bosch-mobility.com/en/mobility-topics/ee-architecture/ https://www.bosch-mobility.com/en/mobility-topics/ee-archite...
- dclowd9901 3y ago
  It can and does. I had a 2021 Ford Transit with a non working front passenger turn signal. I figured at best maybe a bad assembly, at worst, maybe something was up with lighting module. Nope. Turns out the light shorted and killed my cluster while it was at it. It was under warranty so no cost there, but it would’ve easily set me back almost $2k for parts and labor. I work on cars a lot, and if I wasn’t a software engineer, I’d be a mechanic (I’m actually going to be opening a restoration shop in the next few years). Basically every system on the CAN bus is integrated with every other system and even if they aren’t, there is a ton of cross pollination of systems you’d never expect. That same van had a feature that would turn down the a/c blower if you received a phone call so as to not be too loud. Neat feature but i was just counting the days before that somehow cause my radio, a/c or car control module to go belly up.
- blastersyndrome 3y ago
  ...but that is what happened. Ford designed a car that bricked itself if that failure mode occurred. Whether it was born out of malice or incompetence does not matter.
TaylorAlexander 3y ago
I remember watching this video a few months ago. As I write this I am debugging open source electronics I designed for our open source farming robot. It seems like people see the growth in opaque proprietary electronics and they conclude that we should move back to old mechanical systems. But mechanical systems are not always more reliable. What I really want more people to understand is that electronics are not the issue - proprietary designs are. Open source designs inherently have enough documentation that even if they don't come with some nice service manual, the nerds on the user forum can dig through the schematics and code to sort out what's what. Unfortunately open source hardware just isn't getting enough coverage for people to really see the value in it, despite the entire internet being built on open source software. We need to find ways to communicate the power of open source beyond software. We could have open source modules in cars with open standards. Sure the manufacturers need a rugged PCB that can control lights, read sensors, interact with CAN BUS, etc. But there is no need for that system to be proprietary. We need to build and demonstrate the value of open source hardware to help people understand what is really possible. Because the call to move back to mechanical systems is really just a call to move back to systems that are intuitively understandable, and today's shadetree mechanics can read a forum post as well as anyone else. What we need are open, documented systems. Electronics are not the enemy, proprietary systems are.
- artificialLimbs 3y ago
  Say what you will about Musk, but he's making an effort in this regard. He has open sourced a number of goodies with Tesla.
  - bsder 3y ago
    Um, last I checked, the repository was a bunch of PDF user manuals. Has that changed?
  - conradev 3y ago
    Isn't Tesla actively hostile towards charging network interoperability?
bsder 3y ago
Electronic systems can quite easily be far more reliable than mechanical systems. High voltage ignition systems are a really good example. I used to own a 1973 Buick LeSabre with a stupid low-voltage ignition system for "emissions control" purposes. Any water inside the engine compartment, and your engine would stall. Put a modern high-voltage ignition system on that and you could damn near submerge the engine and it would keep going. The problem here is a lack of interface standardization (for example: old school taillights all connected to bulbs the same way). If auto manufacturers were required to document interfaces and accept third party parts, they would have to design everything defensively and these kinds of silly issues would go away. The problem isn't electronics--it's engineering. And the problem isn't engineers--it's management cutting every corner they can.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  Another issue is the physical layer of the CAN bus system. For something meant for automotive deployment in massive numbers I'm not particularly impressed with how the typical physical layer is implemented. There is relatively little margin for error and the topology is just designed for cost efficiency, not for reliability or redundancy.
kube-system 3y ago
The conclusion in the title isn't justified by the content. Bad designs are bad designs, regardless of whether they're electronic systems or mechanical systems. Ford and Nissan have shipped plenty of mechanical systems that leave something to be desired. Funny enough, I had a Ford truck in the 80s that spent a week in the shop because a shorted taillight bulb caused the entire electrical system to misbehave. No CAN bus required. And, dealer only parts? That's hardly an 'electronics' issue. Try to replace anything other than body panels or drivetrain parts, and you'll find a lot of this.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  In the case of drivetrain parts that may well be an anti-theft measure to make it harder for chopshops to sell drivetrain parts from stolen vehicles.
  - kube-system 3y ago
    Drivetrain parts are the easy things to find in the aftermarket, because they're wear parts, and people have to replace them to make the car go, so they're profitable to make. The kind of stuff that's hard to find in the aftermarket are things like oddball interior parts that don't need regular replacing.
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      Yes, true. But what I meant (and failed to explain, apparently) that for instance a gearbox can be paired to a particular ECU and that the manufacturer does that to stop the gearbox from being sold separately from the engine, which makes it harder for a chopshop to do its thing because and engine without a serial number is kind of suspect but a gearbox (which, especially for a larger car can be quite expensive) would often be overlooked during an inspection. By tying the two together it now becomes mandatory to not only swap out the gearbox but also the engine (or the ECU, but that's not all that easy either). I've had a VW van stolen right from in front of my house and to this day it's a mystery to me how they did it, there was no glass so they must have had a key or a way to open the vehicle and those are fairly solid. You can't start the car unless you have a key with the right transponder in it and that transponder is known to the ECU. So you'd have to bring a key that works on the door, open the door, teach that key to the ECU (or swap out the whole thing) and then drive off with the car. But it was all done in a couple of minutes at most. It's 8 years ago now or so and I'm still looking for it, every time I see a long wheelbase silvergray VW with a camper roof my head turns all by itself to check the roof raises at the back (which is a very rare combination).
thefourthchime 3y ago
I'm not a mechanic, but I'm an amateur mechanic as far as my YouTube viewing goes, and I've never heard of this. Plenty of people I watch, get junkie, old cars, and all kinds of things to fix but this one hasn't come up. Is it possible? I'm sure, does it happen all the time I'm somewhat suspicious.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  Yes, it's absolutely possible. You have a whole slew of stuff connected to that bus and if it shorts out then it can take other parties connected to the same bus with it depending on what is shorted out and how. What you think of as a taillight is actually a couple of micro computers, a DC-DC converter and a whole bunch of LEDs, connectors and so on on it's own circuit board with potentially a bunch of other IO for the safety features mentioned in TFA which could basically be anything. So all of that lives on the secondary can bus (which can have 10's of clients). Short out that bus in a creative way and you may well end up creating a nasty cascade of issues that run from one end of the car to the other. Normally this shouldn't happen. But the potential is there. In my car - fortunately - I just have regular lightbulbs. They're a pain to change out because of how the front and the back of the car are constructed but the worst they can do is blow a fuse. I keep a very small socket and driver in the car just in case I have to do that on the road because without the right tools it is impossible. And even with the tools it is a 20 minute job.
  - Animats 3y ago
    > But the potential is there. Which it shouldn't be. This isn't an electric car. All you have is 12VDC. Every connection should be able to tolerate +-12VDC without damage.
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      Those taillights have their own LED drivers and not rarely they pulse the LEDs with far more than twelve volts to get them to be brighter. The pulses are super short so they don't damage the LEDs. I don't have any idea if the Ford in the article uses that trick but I've seen it on a couple of other cars as well. Usually they are simple DC/DC converters using buck-boost drivers to make the higher voltage. Moisture (tail light leak mentioned in TFA) could lead to that voltage being present on the bus (at low current, but those bus drivers are puny). https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lp8868v-q1.pdf?ts=1701522708060&ref_url=https%253A%252F%252Fwww.ti.com%252Fpower-management%252Fled-drivers%252Fautomotive-led-drivers%252Fproducts.html https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lp8868v-q1.pdf?ts=17015227... Datasheet of a typical driver. So 60+ V out, nice little series inductor, 6A peak current on pulses a few ns wide. That'll do it, though the best CAN bus drivers on the market could easily sustain that without damage I'm pretty sure that not all of them would and I've seen them give up the ghost in e-bikes from transients (CAN is used in e-bikes extensively, both for the main components (battery, motor, UI) as well as for auxiliaries (front and rear lights, charger). On another note: the price for the repair is ridiculous, but that's mostly because anything involving a transistor from a car brand is marked up 1,000%. Boards that don't cost more than $20 to make sell for hundreds of $, and replacing them is going to be a ton of work because of how it's all put together. A (sealed) taillight assembly could easily be $800. Headlights are usually even more expensive. In general, about Ford: great when it works. But fragile and bad engineering on plenty of parts, notably: light assemblies, various braces (including the one that holds up your transmission, don't ask me how I know about that), trim pieces and most of the interior. Engines are great, it's almost like they are designed and built by a different company. Warranty is a ridiculous back-and-forth on things that are clear manufacturing or even engineering faults and you, the customer end up in the middle (and usually pay for the privilege). I had an F150 in Canada, and I liked it from the utility perspective but the reliability wasn't there and Ford as a company utterly sucks and will never see another dime from me. 25 years ago Ford was one of the biggest brands here, today they have a negligible market share in the personal vehicle segment. https://allecijfers.nl/auto/ford/ https://allecijfers.nl/auto/ford/ Down 75% from their peak in the 80's, I would not be surprised at all if at some point they pull out of the market altogether.
bastard_op 3y ago
Try working on a car where every vendor still, after obd2 regulation still wants their electronics. Now that every vendor wants to glue a tablet to their dashboard and a 3/4g radio to watch everything I do, it's even worse. I really don't think I'll buy a new car again.
shimonabi 3y ago
He might be a brilliant mechanic, but he sounds just like my paranoid anti-vax coworker when he starts talking about the BRICS currency. The solutions are open standards and documentation, not going back to the stone age.
dclowd9901 3y ago
Really not sure about this dude’s, like… thing, but I absolutely agree that cars have reached a point of almost complete unmaintainability. It wouldn’t be such a bad thing if they were engineered in a fault tolerant way, but they aren’t. Their electrical systems are brittle as dry spaghetti, completely finicky and relying on very small margins to prevent basically frying everything. I have a 1987 Toyota pickup, a 1983 Toyota Land Cruiser, a 1989 BMW 325i and a 1974 BMW 2002, a 2022 Toyota Tacoma and I used to have a 2021 Ford Transit. Of all of those cars, the only one that had electrical issues was my Transit. Twice in fact. Once right after I bought it. The cluster went belly up. Then again with the driving lights on the left side of the van which would intermittently not work. Dealer couldn’t figure it out. I couldn’t figure it out. They wanted to start playing the game of just start replacing everything until the lights work again. Knowing the quality of modern Ford mechanics, I opted out knowing they’d probably break something else in the process of playing whackamole with my car. It wasn’t a serious issue, just obnoxious. Modern cars that have electrical issues cannot be fixed. Whoever is responsible for this change of things should be dragged out and shot. It’s criminally wasteful.
- kube-system 3y ago
  > It wouldn’t be such a bad thing if they were engineered in a fault tolerant way, but they aren’t. There are multiple CAN specs, but fault tolerance is a built-in part of some of them... enough that you can cut a wire entirely and it'll still work. That beats any analog vehicle electrical systems. Although, if it costs a penny more, I'd bet Ford cuts that corner.
- tyingq 3y ago
  > Modern cars that have electrical issues cannot be fixed. Some of it is just "volume" too. When you scale up the amount of wires and connections so much that formerly easy problems become impossible. Things like a somewhat buried wire getting some exhaust heat because a plastic retainer failed, or a squirrel getting into the engine compartment and chewing. You can sort that out in a car with dozens of circuits, but it's harder when there's hundreds.
Animats 3y ago
The video he refers to about the $5000 repair for a taillight problem.[1] This is a parts cost problem. Each tailight assembly has some LEDs, a control module with a CANbus interface, and a rear-obstacle radar sensor. Two of those are over $5000. No way do those parts cost $5000 to make. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUkFsuilVD0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUkFsuilVD0
- rini17 3y ago
  But the failure has spread to other electronics. Does not surprise anyone who knows how bad the car software is.
  - jdboyd 3y ago
    The other parts don't need replaced though, they were just showing as failures because the taillights were jamming the bus. That isn't ideal, but Tony made it sound like parts had to be replaced all over, not that it was just difficult to diagnose failure in the taillights along with the taillights being ludicrously expensive.
    - rini17 3y ago
      Sure, just disassemble the firmware and flip some bits /s
cracrecry 3y ago
As engineer and entrepreneur in the digital space I am biased, but I believe what this man is saying does not make lots of sense. It remembers me the analog photography guys buying analog gear because this "crazy digital thing could not last". People will always love the grain and so on. The key of the issue are proprietary designs. Cars' tech is established and hence a commodity, easier than ever to replace things thanks to technology like computers, 3d scanners and 3d printers. That made possible lots of third parties selling you repair pieces without having to pay an arm and a leg for the official part. The future are electronic cars, battery or hydrogen or ammonia, because it just way simpler and better. With electronics you can make entire designs open source, so you are not dependent of the seller of your car, but you can also make the interface specifications open which is the really important thing. The IBM PC was an example of open interface specifications. Anybody could build new cards and insert it on the slots and start using it. You do not need going back to mechanical systems. You need open specification of interfaces so different companies could compete on equal terms.
genman 3y ago
Start is fair but ends in conspiracy rambling.
avar 3y ago
This is unintentionally a good example of someone who's aged out of his profession because he's not curious about how things really work anymore, despite the lengthy intro claiming the exact opposite. He was repairing a Nissan Maxima, and either got an alert about a bad coil, or one coil was just entirely dead. He then wanted to replace just that bad coil. This is after he was told they should all be replaced, note how he never thought to even ask "why?" at that point, just assuming "what do they know? I've done this before!". He then finds that the car's computer checks all the coils, and just proceeds to alert on the next coil shortly thereafter. This isn't because each coil has some DRM module to make you put another dollar in, but the engine is checking the performance of the coils, presumably it's picking up on something as simple as resistance mismatch. So he blames the car, computers, the modern economy etc, and finally ends with some conspiracy theory about how BRICS are going to replace the USD as the world's reserve currency. There's lots of little annoyances related to the modern CAN-bus in cars, but not this sort of thing. If he'd gone with his initial plan the customer would have unknowingly ended up with a car where the performance of each cylinder differed, which can lead to subtle and more major mechanical issues down the road. It's also perfectly fine to just replace the one coil, get check "check engine" light, and just explain that problem to the customer. If they only want to spend $100 and not $100 times the number of cylinders that's their decision. But whatever the issue is, it's not that the computer notices that the engine's performance is abnormal, and alerts you about it.
- rini17 3y ago
  So you have no problem with junking cars that are most likely completely fine mechanically? Just because electronics is poorly made, prone to chain failure or because software does not support replacing some parts that otherwise could be replaced? Maybe having slightly different performance on one cylinder is completely fine. But with all the proprietary stuff, we aren't allowed to even ask!
  - avar 3y ago
    How are you making the leap from the check engine light being on to the car being junk? You can just ignore it and keep driving if you think you know better. In this case the customer was implicitly asking the mechanic to repair the car to the point where that diagnostics wouldn't fire. Now, you can argue that those diagnostics are overly anal etc., but let's not blow this out of proportion. This is analogous to replacing a single blown tire with a new one of a slightly different size. Most modern cars will also detect and warn about that (e.g. noticing the difference in spin at the differential), and the manual most likely says "don't do that", but the car will probably be "fine" in practice.
jacknews 3y ago
This problem isn't just cars. I've had 2 washers fail in the last couple of years, each time the main logic board. The proplem is (mainly) the electronics, or more precisely, highly integrated, highly proprietary parts. When they break, you can hardly diagnose them, let alone fix them, or replace them with 3rd party stuff. Buying replacements from the manufacturer (if you even can) is often uneconomic, and also risky, since maybe it broke because of some other failure, etc. The solution isn't going back to simple wires and mechanics - his example of 'wiring in a tail light' would double the weight of the car with wires if applied to everything. The solution is modularity and open standards.
- programmertote 3y ago
  What kind of washers if you don't mind sharing. I want to avoid buying that brand. My guess is Samsung because I have had really bad experience with Samsung stuff over the years.
  - bob1029 3y ago
    You could take look at Speed Queen. I went for their TC5 machine recently. No lid lock, real deep fill option, etc. It's a $500+ premium over what you can get from Samsung (or anything at Big Box for that matter), but I think it's worth it to have a proper machine that can actually be serviced.
    - jacknews 3y ago
      Can't get seem to get SQ where I am, but currently looking at older GE/whirlpool models with minimal or at least modular electronics - anything from before the Great Enshittening. I can't figure out if any new models are modular/repairable and built to last, or just trading on old reputation, but actually the same disposable garbage as everyone else.
      - bob1029 3y ago
        You'll have to shop at a boutique or commercial outlet to find this stuff if you are in the domestic U.S. Home Depot/Best Buy/Lowes/Conns/etc will only sell you plastic shit these days. You have to go to their website and search. Mine had to be shipped from a warehouse 2 hours away and I live right next to Houston.
graycat 3y ago
Message to the World Auto Industry: I've been customer of yours for decades. For all that time, one of my main concerns was ease of maintenance, and for that I regard a pillar to be SIMPLICITY. This article is an extreme example of why I don't like your electronics in your cars -- an exception for the fuel injection and ignition system and, sure, a radio. Otherwise, for ANY electronics, I don't want it. Get rid of it. To me a car with more electronics is MUCH less desirable and valuable. I'll work HARD to find used cars that have no such electronics. None. E.g., my favorite car was a 1986 Chevy S-10 Blazer with a V-6 engine, electronic fuel and ignition, and NO more electronics. I'd still have it except winter road salt caused too much rust, e.g.,actually rusted through the oil pan. Another car I liked was a 1971 Chevy Nova -- Chevy small block, 350 cubic inch displacement, V-8, automatic transmission. Sure, electronic fuel and ignition would have helped some. Bluntly, in fact, no doubt, I'd take that 1986 Blazer over any and all your current cars with electronics. No joke or exaggeration. To improve on the Blazer? Sure, do a LOT to resist corrosion. Yes, I know, your electronics engineers have a long list of various aids, assists, reminders, monitors, etc. that can be done with electronics and are eager to include in the new cars. Get them jobs doing something else, maybe using electronics to automate parts of your manufacturing, maybe making toy cars for kids. Just keep those engineers far away from any cars you want me to buy. E.g., WWII movies show a Jeep. Okay, I'd prefer it to any of your electronic cars. Are you getting the message -- I don't want electronics in my car? And why? Because just as in the article, it is a reliability and maintenance problem. The electronics cost a lot more and makes the car much less desirable, useful, and valuable. MUCH less. For more, follow the famous, KISS principle -- "Keep it simple, ..." E.g., for headlights, just use the old, common, standard, cheap, really good, readily available "sealed beam" headlights. Use 4 of them, 2 low beam and 2 high beam -- get LOTS of good light, cheap, reliable, rugged, easy to maintain. For your stylists eager to create some stylish, high-fashion, dashing, sweeping, space age, new ..." artistic, emotional expression, send them off with the electronics engineers. Just use those sealed beam headlights. I'm not joking -- for me, that WWII Jeep beats all your present work. It was simple, likely cheap, rugged, reliable, easy to maintain -- to me, that's a dream car, better than anything you are trying to sell. Yes, for that Jeep, rear wheel drive only would make it still better. The Nova and Blazer were much better still. The Blazer would have been still better with rear wheel drive only. No joke, to summarize, get rid of the electronics and other junk that is expensive to buy and maintain but delicate and not rugged or reliable.
thegrim33 3y ago
It's so strange all the comments in here about how modern electronic stuff is completely fine because "it just needs to be open sourced so it's maintainable". Yet not a single modern car does this, nor does any manufacturer have any motivation to do this, nor does any manufacturer plan to do this, nor will any car ever actually have this. It's a completely dead argument.
- naruhodo 3y ago
  Governments can shift the balance in favour of consumers with right to repair laws. The argument is only dead if we accept this situation. If it's dead in the US, that's because democracy is finished.
grecy 3y ago
This is over sensationalized garbage. Here are the coils for sale for the Nissan Maxima, individually for $18.52 each. https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=12032829&cc=1444 https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=12032829&cc=1444... I also just checked. Same price for a 2020, 2010 and 2000 model year (Not sure what year his was) Forget the stupid dealer, just buy them yourself.
audunw 3y ago
Not sure why he’d go into the topic of a BRICS alternative to a global reserve currency. That just ain’t happening. Especially a commodity based currency. That’s just not going to scale. There’s a force aspect to the dollars role as global reserve currency, yes. But the main factor is that America built the world’s best currency and the best international banking system. It’s the only currency that could scale to meet global demand, and so of course it became the global reserve currency. None of the proposed alternatives have the properties needed to replace the dollar. So there’s no reason to think it’s being replaced anytime soon. Apart from that he has some good points.

80 points by walterbell 3y ago

tw04 3y ago

Just, no. A taillight short doesn’t cause the radio not to work because of canbus. I have no idea what this nonsense is doing here but a guy advocating for carbureted ICE engines because “computers and electronics bad” in 2023 shouldn’t be take seriously on this site of all places.

jacquesm 3y ago
I can easily imagine how that particular fault could occur. So I wouldn't rule out this particular complaint without having a thorough look at the schematic of the vehicle involved to see through what pathways the CAN bus or the radio itself (usually on a separate bus, but not always) could be drawn high or low. That's the problem with a bus: if you force it low or high that's effectively a denial-of-service. I've had a case recently where a radio locked up hard because of a CAN bus issue that had nothing to do with the radio at all... (2005 MB CLS). That was quite the headscratcher and it took multiple people with a lot of gear to debug the problem to the point that we figured out what the culprit was (a little box on the main CAN bus embedded quite far away from the radio that apparently controlled the power to the console portion).
- pvg 3y ago
  That's the problem with a bus: if you force it low or high that's effectively a denial-of-service. This obviously doesn't always happen in reality but CAN is supposed detect/deal with that - pegged bus should be detectable, bad nodes are supposed to float, etc.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    In the presence of moisture and a pulsed LED driver all bets are off.
- chongli 3y ago
  CANbus is on the way out. The future of networking in cars is Ethernet. A proper switched network with TSN [1] can dramatically cut down on the amount of copper in the car while increasing bandwidth and reliability. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time-Sensitive_Networking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time-Sensitive_Networking
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    My car has a regular good old wiring hardness to the rear lights and there isn't any electronics in there. For increased reliability.
  - RealityVoid 3y ago
    The problem with Ethernet is that it's (usually) not a bus. CAN is still plenty used in newer projects and they're getting even a newer higher bandwidth version.
    - chongli 3y ago
      Ethernet in cars is based on the idea of putting a switch right on the die of all your microcontrollers. Then every device has multiple Ethernet links and helps to route traffic on the network. This way there’s no bulky wiring harness (bus) and everything connects with a mesh topology with single links between devices. From what I’ve heard, it can save about 100lbs of wiring per car!
      - RealityVoid 3y ago
        Sounds like a routing nightmare. Do you have a more detailed reference about this? Full disclosure, I work in automotive SW, but maybe I'm not working in the right ecu to see this. Timelines for these projects are quite long.
        chongli 3y ago
        I worked on the networking side at NXP Semiconductors who are building the chips to do all of this stuff. Here's an example of one of their recent devices built with these sorts of applications (automotive and industrial) in mind [1]. They've partnered with Bosch and TSMC on this [2]. Here's Bosch's description of the tech [3]. [1] https://www.nxp.com/products/processors-and-microcontrollers/arm-processors/i-mx-applications-processors/i-mx-9-processors/i-mx-95-applications-processor-family-high-performance-safety-enabled-platform-with-eiq-neutron-npu:iMX95 https://www.nxp.com/products/processors-and-microcontrollers... [2] https://www.nxp.com/company/about-nxp/tsmc-bosch-infineon-and-nxp-establish-joint-venture-to-bring-advanced-semiconductor-manufacturing-to-europe:NW-ESMC https://www.nxp.com/company/about-nxp/tsmc-bosch-infineon-an... [3] https://www.bosch-mobility.com/en/mobility-topics/ee-architecture/ https://www.bosch-mobility.com/en/mobility-topics/ee-archite...
dclowd9901 3y ago
It can and does. I had a 2021 Ford Transit with a non working front passenger turn signal. I figured at best maybe a bad assembly, at worst, maybe something was up with lighting module. Nope. Turns out the light shorted and killed my cluster while it was at it. It was under warranty so no cost there, but it would’ve easily set me back almost $2k for parts and labor. I work on cars a lot, and if I wasn’t a software engineer, I’d be a mechanic (I’m actually going to be opening a restoration shop in the next few years). Basically every system on the CAN bus is integrated with every other system and even if they aren’t, there is a ton of cross pollination of systems you’d never expect. That same van had a feature that would turn down the a/c blower if you received a phone call so as to not be too loud. Neat feature but i was just counting the days before that somehow cause my radio, a/c or car control module to go belly up.
blastersyndrome 3y ago
...but that is what happened. Ford designed a car that bricked itself if that failure mode occurred. Whether it was born out of malice or incompetence does not matter.

TaylorAlexander 3y ago

I remember watching this video a few months ago. As I write this I am debugging open source electronics I designed for our open source farming robot. It seems like people see the growth in opaque proprietary electronics and they conclude that we should move back to old mechanical systems. But mechanical systems are not always more reliable. What I really want more people to understand is that electronics are not the issue - proprietary designs are. Open source designs inherently have enough documentation that even if they don't come with some nice service manual, the nerds on the user forum can dig through the schematics and code to sort out what's what. Unfortunately open source hardware just isn't getting enough coverage for people to really see the value in it, despite the entire internet being built on open source software. We need to find ways to communicate the power of open source beyond software. We could have open source modules in cars with open standards. Sure the manufacturers need a rugged PCB that can control lights, read sensors, interact with CAN BUS, etc. But there is no need for that system to be proprietary. We need to build and demonstrate the value of open source hardware to help people understand what is really possible. Because the call to move back to mechanical systems is really just a call to move back to systems that are intuitively understandable, and today's shadetree mechanics can read a forum post as well as anyone else. What we need are open, documented systems. Electronics are not the enemy, proprietary systems are.

artificialLimbs 3y ago
Say what you will about Musk, but he's making an effort in this regard. He has open sourced a number of goodies with Tesla.
- bsder 3y ago
  Um, last I checked, the repository was a bunch of PDF user manuals. Has that changed?
- conradev 3y ago
  Isn't Tesla actively hostile towards charging network interoperability?

bsder 3y ago

Electronic systems can quite easily be far more reliable than mechanical systems. High voltage ignition systems are a really good example. I used to own a 1973 Buick LeSabre with a stupid low-voltage ignition system for "emissions control" purposes. Any water inside the engine compartment, and your engine would stall. Put a modern high-voltage ignition system on that and you could damn near submerge the engine and it would keep going. The problem here is a lack of interface standardization (for example: old school taillights all connected to bulbs the same way). If auto manufacturers were required to document interfaces and accept third party parts, they would have to design everything defensively and these kinds of silly issues would go away. The problem isn't electronics--it's engineering. And the problem isn't engineers--it's management cutting every corner they can.

jacquesm 3y ago
Another issue is the physical layer of the CAN bus system. For something meant for automotive deployment in massive numbers I'm not particularly impressed with how the typical physical layer is implemented. There is relatively little margin for error and the topology is just designed for cost efficiency, not for reliability or redundancy.

kube-system 3y ago

The conclusion in the title isn't justified by the content. Bad designs are bad designs, regardless of whether they're electronic systems or mechanical systems. Ford and Nissan have shipped plenty of mechanical systems that leave something to be desired. Funny enough, I had a Ford truck in the 80s that spent a week in the shop because a shorted taillight bulb caused the entire electrical system to misbehave. No CAN bus required. And, dealer only parts? That's hardly an 'electronics' issue. Try to replace anything other than body panels or drivetrain parts, and you'll find a lot of this.

jacquesm 3y ago
In the case of drivetrain parts that may well be an anti-theft measure to make it harder for chopshops to sell drivetrain parts from stolen vehicles.
- kube-system 3y ago
  Drivetrain parts are the easy things to find in the aftermarket, because they're wear parts, and people have to replace them to make the car go, so they're profitable to make. The kind of stuff that's hard to find in the aftermarket are things like oddball interior parts that don't need regular replacing.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    Yes, true. But what I meant (and failed to explain, apparently) that for instance a gearbox can be paired to a particular ECU and that the manufacturer does that to stop the gearbox from being sold separately from the engine, which makes it harder for a chopshop to do its thing because and engine without a serial number is kind of suspect but a gearbox (which, especially for a larger car can be quite expensive) would often be overlooked during an inspection. By tying the two together it now becomes mandatory to not only swap out the gearbox but also the engine (or the ECU, but that's not all that easy either). I've had a VW van stolen right from in front of my house and to this day it's a mystery to me how they did it, there was no glass so they must have had a key or a way to open the vehicle and those are fairly solid. You can't start the car unless you have a key with the right transponder in it and that transponder is known to the ECU. So you'd have to bring a key that works on the door, open the door, teach that key to the ECU (or swap out the whole thing) and then drive off with the car. But it was all done in a couple of minutes at most. It's 8 years ago now or so and I'm still looking for it, every time I see a long wheelbase silvergray VW with a camper roof my head turns all by itself to check the roof raises at the back (which is a very rare combination).

thefourthchime 3y ago

I'm not a mechanic, but I'm an amateur mechanic as far as my YouTube viewing goes, and I've never heard of this. Plenty of people I watch, get junkie, old cars, and all kinds of things to fix but this one hasn't come up. Is it possible? I'm sure, does it happen all the time I'm somewhat suspicious.

jacquesm 3y ago
Yes, it's absolutely possible. You have a whole slew of stuff connected to that bus and if it shorts out then it can take other parties connected to the same bus with it depending on what is shorted out and how. What you think of as a taillight is actually a couple of micro computers, a DC-DC converter and a whole bunch of LEDs, connectors and so on on it's own circuit board with potentially a bunch of other IO for the safety features mentioned in TFA which could basically be anything. So all of that lives on the secondary can bus (which can have 10's of clients). Short out that bus in a creative way and you may well end up creating a nasty cascade of issues that run from one end of the car to the other. Normally this shouldn't happen. But the potential is there. In my car - fortunately - I just have regular lightbulbs. They're a pain to change out because of how the front and the back of the car are constructed but the worst they can do is blow a fuse. I keep a very small socket and driver in the car just in case I have to do that on the road because without the right tools it is impossible. And even with the tools it is a 20 minute job.
- Animats 3y ago
  > But the potential is there. Which it shouldn't be. This isn't an electric car. All you have is 12VDC. Every connection should be able to tolerate +-12VDC without damage.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    Those taillights have their own LED drivers and not rarely they pulse the LEDs with far more than twelve volts to get them to be brighter. The pulses are super short so they don't damage the LEDs. I don't have any idea if the Ford in the article uses that trick but I've seen it on a couple of other cars as well. Usually they are simple DC/DC converters using buck-boost drivers to make the higher voltage. Moisture (tail light leak mentioned in TFA) could lead to that voltage being present on the bus (at low current, but those bus drivers are puny). https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lp8868v-q1.pdf?ts=1701522708060&ref_url=https%253A%252F%252Fwww.ti.com%252Fpower-management%252Fled-drivers%252Fautomotive-led-drivers%252Fproducts.html https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lp8868v-q1.pdf?ts=17015227... Datasheet of a typical driver. So 60+ V out, nice little series inductor, 6A peak current on pulses a few ns wide. That'll do it, though the best CAN bus drivers on the market could easily sustain that without damage I'm pretty sure that not all of them would and I've seen them give up the ghost in e-bikes from transients (CAN is used in e-bikes extensively, both for the main components (battery, motor, UI) as well as for auxiliaries (front and rear lights, charger). On another note: the price for the repair is ridiculous, but that's mostly because anything involving a transistor from a car brand is marked up 1,000%. Boards that don't cost more than $20 to make sell for hundreds of $, and replacing them is going to be a ton of work because of how it's all put together. A (sealed) taillight assembly could easily be $800. Headlights are usually even more expensive. In general, about Ford: great when it works. But fragile and bad engineering on plenty of parts, notably: light assemblies, various braces (including the one that holds up your transmission, don't ask me how I know about that), trim pieces and most of the interior. Engines are great, it's almost like they are designed and built by a different company. Warranty is a ridiculous back-and-forth on things that are clear manufacturing or even engineering faults and you, the customer end up in the middle (and usually pay for the privilege). I had an F150 in Canada, and I liked it from the utility perspective but the reliability wasn't there and Ford as a company utterly sucks and will never see another dime from me. 25 years ago Ford was one of the biggest brands here, today they have a negligible market share in the personal vehicle segment. https://allecijfers.nl/auto/ford/ https://allecijfers.nl/auto/ford/ Down 75% from their peak in the 80's, I would not be surprised at all if at some point they pull out of the market altogether.

bastard_op 3y ago

Try working on a car where every vendor still, after obd2 regulation still wants their electronics. Now that every vendor wants to glue a tablet to their dashboard and a 3/4g radio to watch everything I do, it's even worse. I really don't think I'll buy a new car again.

shimonabi 3y ago

He might be a brilliant mechanic, but he sounds just like my paranoid anti-vax coworker when he starts talking about the BRICS currency. The solutions are open standards and documentation, not going back to the stone age.

dclowd9901 3y ago

Really not sure about this dude’s, like… thing, but I absolutely agree that cars have reached a point of almost complete unmaintainability. It wouldn’t be such a bad thing if they were engineered in a fault tolerant way, but they aren’t. Their electrical systems are brittle as dry spaghetti, completely finicky and relying on very small margins to prevent basically frying everything. I have a 1987 Toyota pickup, a 1983 Toyota Land Cruiser, a 1989 BMW 325i and a 1974 BMW 2002, a 2022 Toyota Tacoma and I used to have a 2021 Ford Transit. Of all of those cars, the only one that had electrical issues was my Transit. Twice in fact. Once right after I bought it. The cluster went belly up. Then again with the driving lights on the left side of the van which would intermittently not work. Dealer couldn’t figure it out. I couldn’t figure it out. They wanted to start playing the game of just start replacing everything until the lights work again. Knowing the quality of modern Ford mechanics, I opted out knowing they’d probably break something else in the process of playing whackamole with my car. It wasn’t a serious issue, just obnoxious. Modern cars that have electrical issues cannot be fixed. Whoever is responsible for this change of things should be dragged out and shot. It’s criminally wasteful.

kube-system 3y ago
> It wouldn’t be such a bad thing if they were engineered in a fault tolerant way, but they aren’t. There are multiple CAN specs, but fault tolerance is a built-in part of some of them... enough that you can cut a wire entirely and it'll still work. That beats any analog vehicle electrical systems. Although, if it costs a penny more, I'd bet Ford cuts that corner.
tyingq 3y ago
> Modern cars that have electrical issues cannot be fixed. Some of it is just "volume" too. When you scale up the amount of wires and connections so much that formerly easy problems become impossible. Things like a somewhat buried wire getting some exhaust heat because a plastic retainer failed, or a squirrel getting into the engine compartment and chewing. You can sort that out in a car with dozens of circuits, but it's harder when there's hundreds.

Animats 3y ago

The video he refers to about the $5000 repair for a taillight problem.[1] This is a parts cost problem. Each tailight assembly has some LEDs, a control module with a CANbus interface, and a rear-obstacle radar sensor. Two of those are over $5000. No way do those parts cost $5000 to make. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUkFsuilVD0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUkFsuilVD0

rini17 3y ago
But the failure has spread to other electronics. Does not surprise anyone who knows how bad the car software is.
- jdboyd 3y ago
  The other parts don't need replaced though, they were just showing as failures because the taillights were jamming the bus. That isn't ideal, but Tony made it sound like parts had to be replaced all over, not that it was just difficult to diagnose failure in the taillights along with the taillights being ludicrously expensive.
  - rini17 3y ago
    Sure, just disassemble the firmware and flip some bits /s

cracrecry 3y ago

As engineer and entrepreneur in the digital space I am biased, but I believe what this man is saying does not make lots of sense. It remembers me the analog photography guys buying analog gear because this "crazy digital thing could not last". People will always love the grain and so on. The key of the issue are proprietary designs. Cars' tech is established and hence a commodity, easier than ever to replace things thanks to technology like computers, 3d scanners and 3d printers. That made possible lots of third parties selling you repair pieces without having to pay an arm and a leg for the official part. The future are electronic cars, battery or hydrogen or ammonia, because it just way simpler and better. With electronics you can make entire designs open source, so you are not dependent of the seller of your car, but you can also make the interface specifications open which is the really important thing. The IBM PC was an example of open interface specifications. Anybody could build new cards and insert it on the slots and start using it. You do not need going back to mechanical systems. You need open specification of interfaces so different companies could compete on equal terms.

genman 3y ago

Start is fair but ends in conspiracy rambling.

avar 3y ago

This is unintentionally a good example of someone who's aged out of his profession because he's not curious about how things really work anymore, despite the lengthy intro claiming the exact opposite. He was repairing a Nissan Maxima, and either got an alert about a bad coil, or one coil was just entirely dead. He then wanted to replace just that bad coil. This is after he was told they should all be replaced, note how he never thought to even ask "why?" at that point, just assuming "what do they know? I've done this before!". He then finds that the car's computer checks all the coils, and just proceeds to alert on the next coil shortly thereafter. This isn't because each coil has some DRM module to make you put another dollar in, but the engine is checking the performance of the coils, presumably it's picking up on something as simple as resistance mismatch. So he blames the car, computers, the modern economy etc, and finally ends with some conspiracy theory about how BRICS are going to replace the USD as the world's reserve currency. There's lots of little annoyances related to the modern CAN-bus in cars, but not this sort of thing. If he'd gone with his initial plan the customer would have unknowingly ended up with a car where the performance of each cylinder differed, which can lead to subtle and more major mechanical issues down the road. It's also perfectly fine to just replace the one coil, get check "check engine" light, and just explain that problem to the customer. If they only want to spend $100 and not $100 times the number of cylinders that's their decision. But whatever the issue is, it's not that the computer notices that the engine's performance is abnormal, and alerts you about it.

rini17 3y ago
So you have no problem with junking cars that are most likely completely fine mechanically? Just because electronics is poorly made, prone to chain failure or because software does not support replacing some parts that otherwise could be replaced? Maybe having slightly different performance on one cylinder is completely fine. But with all the proprietary stuff, we aren't allowed to even ask!
- avar 3y ago
  How are you making the leap from the check engine light being on to the car being junk? You can just ignore it and keep driving if you think you know better. In this case the customer was implicitly asking the mechanic to repair the car to the point where that diagnostics wouldn't fire. Now, you can argue that those diagnostics are overly anal etc., but let's not blow this out of proportion. This is analogous to replacing a single blown tire with a new one of a slightly different size. Most modern cars will also detect and warn about that (e.g. noticing the difference in spin at the differential), and the manual most likely says "don't do that", but the car will probably be "fine" in practice.

jacknews 3y ago

This problem isn't just cars. I've had 2 washers fail in the last couple of years, each time the main logic board. The proplem is (mainly) the electronics, or more precisely, highly integrated, highly proprietary parts. When they break, you can hardly diagnose them, let alone fix them, or replace them with 3rd party stuff. Buying replacements from the manufacturer (if you even can) is often uneconomic, and also risky, since maybe it broke because of some other failure, etc. The solution isn't going back to simple wires and mechanics - his example of 'wiring in a tail light' would double the weight of the car with wires if applied to everything. The solution is modularity and open standards.

programmertote 3y ago
What kind of washers if you don't mind sharing. I want to avoid buying that brand. My guess is Samsung because I have had really bad experience with Samsung stuff over the years.
- bob1029 3y ago
  You could take look at Speed Queen. I went for their TC5 machine recently. No lid lock, real deep fill option, etc. It's a $500+ premium over what you can get from Samsung (or anything at Big Box for that matter), but I think it's worth it to have a proper machine that can actually be serviced.
  - jacknews 3y ago
    Can't get seem to get SQ where I am, but currently looking at older GE/whirlpool models with minimal or at least modular electronics - anything from before the Great Enshittening. I can't figure out if any new models are modular/repairable and built to last, or just trading on old reputation, but actually the same disposable garbage as everyone else.
    - bob1029 3y ago
      You'll have to shop at a boutique or commercial outlet to find this stuff if you are in the domestic U.S. Home Depot/Best Buy/Lowes/Conns/etc will only sell you plastic shit these days. You have to go to their website and search. Mine had to be shipped from a warehouse 2 hours away and I live right next to Houston.

graycat 3y ago

Message to the World Auto Industry: I've been customer of yours for decades. For all that time, one of my main concerns was ease of maintenance, and for that I regard a pillar to be SIMPLICITY. This article is an extreme example of why I don't like your electronics in your cars -- an exception for the fuel injection and ignition system and, sure, a radio. Otherwise, for ANY electronics, I don't want it. Get rid of it. To me a car with more electronics is MUCH less desirable and valuable. I'll work HARD to find used cars that have no such electronics. None. E.g., my favorite car was a 1986 Chevy S-10 Blazer with a V-6 engine, electronic fuel and ignition, and NO more electronics. I'd still have it except winter road salt caused too much rust, e.g.,actually rusted through the oil pan. Another car I liked was a 1971 Chevy Nova -- Chevy small block, 350 cubic inch displacement, V-8, automatic transmission. Sure, electronic fuel and ignition would have helped some. Bluntly, in fact, no doubt, I'd take that 1986 Blazer over any and all your current cars with electronics. No joke or exaggeration. To improve on the Blazer? Sure, do a LOT to resist corrosion. Yes, I know, your electronics engineers have a long list of various aids, assists, reminders, monitors, etc. that can be done with electronics and are eager to include in the new cars. Get them jobs doing something else, maybe using electronics to automate parts of your manufacturing, maybe making toy cars for kids. Just keep those engineers far away from any cars you want me to buy. E.g., WWII movies show a Jeep. Okay, I'd prefer it to any of your electronic cars. Are you getting the message -- I don't want electronics in my car? And why? Because just as in the article, it is a reliability and maintenance problem. The electronics cost a lot more and makes the car much less desirable, useful, and valuable. MUCH less. For more, follow the famous, KISS principle -- "Keep it simple, ..." E.g., for headlights, just use the old, common, standard, cheap, really good, readily available "sealed beam" headlights. Use 4 of them, 2 low beam and 2 high beam -- get LOTS of good light, cheap, reliable, rugged, easy to maintain. For your stylists eager to create some stylish, high-fashion, dashing, sweeping, space age, new ..." artistic, emotional expression, send them off with the electronics engineers. Just use those sealed beam headlights. I'm not joking -- for me, that WWII Jeep beats all your present work. It was simple, likely cheap, rugged, reliable, easy to maintain -- to me, that's a dream car, better than anything you are trying to sell. Yes, for that Jeep, rear wheel drive only would make it still better. The Nova and Blazer were much better still. The Blazer would have been still better with rear wheel drive only. No joke, to summarize, get rid of the electronics and other junk that is expensive to buy and maintain but delicate and not rugged or reliable.

thegrim33 3y ago

It's so strange all the comments in here about how modern electronic stuff is completely fine because "it just needs to be open sourced so it's maintainable". Yet not a single modern car does this, nor does any manufacturer have any motivation to do this, nor does any manufacturer plan to do this, nor will any car ever actually have this. It's a completely dead argument.

naruhodo 3y ago
Governments can shift the balance in favour of consumers with right to repair laws. The argument is only dead if we accept this situation. If it's dead in the US, that's because democracy is finished.

grecy 3y ago

This is over sensationalized garbage. Here are the coils for sale for the Nissan Maxima, individually for $18.52 each. https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=12032829&cc=1444 https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=12032829&cc=1444... I also just checked. Same price for a 2020, 2010 and 2000 model year (Not sure what year his was) Forget the stupid dealer, just buy them yourself.

audunw 3y ago

Not sure why he’d go into the topic of a BRICS alternative to a global reserve currency. That just ain’t happening. Especially a commodity based currency. That’s just not going to scale. There’s a force aspect to the dollars role as global reserve currency, yes. But the main factor is that America built the world’s best currency and the best international banking system. It’s the only currency that could scale to meet global demand, and so of course it became the global reserve currency. None of the proposed alternatives have the properties needed to replace the dollar. So there’s no reason to think it’s being replaced anytime soon. Apart from that he has some good points.