4 ms·

> Pay, sure, but pay doesn't make happiness Yet pay is the point of work, wouldn't you say? > Working conditions? I doubt that. As I noted, work conditions v

> Pay, sure, but pay doesn't make happiness Yet pay is the point of work, wouldn't you say? > Working conditions? I doubt that. As I noted, work conditions vary. But non-physical labor, remote possible, pushing the upper boundaries on vacation (unlimited vacation which isnt a scam), family leave, health insurace, etc. I think you really have to cherry pick to beat tech.

deeg 3y ago
I'm in complete agreement with you. What job category has more employees than software engineering coupled with better pay and working conditions? That doesn't mean we can't be miserable (and I've gone through a few bouts myself) but it's a great field right now.
massysett 3y ago
Unlimited vacation is always, always a 100 percent scam. Unlimited vacation would mean that you go to work never yet you remain on the payroll. Obviously this is impossible. So “unlimited vacation” really means that there is a limit, but your employer either doesn’t know what it is or won’t tell you, and you don’t know what it is. So you have to worry about how much vacation to take because there is a limit, it’s just not definitized. Always a 100% complete scam.
- s1artibartfast 3y ago
  I don't know what your definition of scam is, but every employer I've known has been very transparent about what unlimited vacation does and does not mean. If someone actually thinks unlimited means working is optional, that's on them.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    I don't think it's a scam, but using the term "unlimited" in this way does reduce my trust in the companies who do it. It's clearly marketing BS. "Unlimited" means "without limit", which obviously can't be the case with vacation time, so it's deceptive to call it that. "Generous" would be better.
    - s1artibartfast 3y ago
      Can something be deceptive when it is still clear enough that no human is actually confused? It has deceptive potential if someone has no knowledge beyond the literal words, and assumes that there are no other restrictions, which I don't think is the appropriate reference. Anyone actually involved with unlimited vacation is provided the full context on operation. A policy name not being self contained and fully self explanatory does not constitute deception. I think it is reasonably descriptive. There is no policy limit to the number of vacation days. It is discretionary. I think it is a bad deal for most, but don't think anyone is being tricked
      - massysett 3y ago
        There are ways to word this without being deceptive. American Express charge cards do not claim to have “unlimited spending power.” They say “no preset spending limit” and explain that they constantly evaluate how much you can charge. “Unlimited vacation” is wantonly and aggressively inaccurate and is, therefore, a scam.
        s1artibartfast 3y ago
        If you define the threshold for "wantonly and aggressively inaccurate" so low that nobody has ever been confused, you are in for a lot of frustration and grievances.
boplicity 3y ago
> Yet pay is the point of work, wouldn't you say? If that's what I thought about work, I would be quite depressed. Fortunately, I find meaning in my work that has nothing to do with pay. Of course, if I didn't get paid, it would be a problem -- but pay is very much not the point. (Especially because my needs are met.)
- s1artibartfast 3y ago
  I think you are in the minority there. I don't know anyone that would go to their job if not for the pay.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    That sort of supports the notion that people tend to be unhappy in their jobs, doesn't it? If the only reason to go to a job is to get paid, that's a strong indicator that the job sucks.
    - s1artibartfast 3y ago
      I think it basically synonymous the notion that people are unhappy with their jobs. However, I don't think it says anything definitive about if the job sucks or not- There are far too many other factors. It says a lot more about life choices , priorities, and compromise. Don't get me wrong, some jobs suck, but a lot of people also work great jobs they personally hate. For example, some people hate programing, corporate environments, and living in the bay area but do it for the $$$. That doesnt mean the job sucks, just that they have traded money for work they don't like. No amounts of employee perks is going to turn a programing job into being an artist, or whatever, if that is what someone actually enjoys.
      - JohnFen 3y ago
        > I don't think it says anything definitive about if the job sucks or not Well, yes. I don't think there are many jobs that objectively suck. For almost all jobs, there are people who will be miserable doing them and there are other people who live for it. I should have said the "job sucks for them".
orwin 3y ago
I think I've found the upper limit on vacation time at my second job, it was 63 days (on a 5 day week). I had to take like 45 of those (the rest way convertible into money). I usually like time off more than money, but I couldn't find the time to plan those 60+ days (and I also was obese and on a very bad ankle, so hiking and 'cheap' vacations were harder to plan :/)
JohnFen 3y ago
> Yet pay is the point of work, wouldn't you say? It is one of the purposes of work, but not the only one (if the job is a good one, anyway). But that's orthogonal to the point. An income is necessary to live, but it isn't what brings happiness. > I think you really have to cherry pick to beat tech. I think it depends on what you value. I've had plenty of low-wage manual labor jobs, and a couple of those had far better working conditions than most of what I experienced as a developer.

deeg 3y ago

I'm in complete agreement with you. What job category has more employees than software engineering coupled with better pay and working conditions? That doesn't mean we can't be miserable (and I've gone through a few bouts myself) but it's a great field right now.

massysett 3y ago

Unlimited vacation is always, always a 100 percent scam. Unlimited vacation would mean that you go to work never yet you remain on the payroll. Obviously this is impossible. So “unlimited vacation” really means that there is a limit, but your employer either doesn’t know what it is or won’t tell you, and you don’t know what it is. So you have to worry about how much vacation to take because there is a limit, it’s just not definitized. Always a 100% complete scam.

s1artibartfast 3y ago
I don't know what your definition of scam is, but every employer I've known has been very transparent about what unlimited vacation does and does not mean. If someone actually thinks unlimited means working is optional, that's on them.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  I don't think it's a scam, but using the term "unlimited" in this way does reduce my trust in the companies who do it. It's clearly marketing BS. "Unlimited" means "without limit", which obviously can't be the case with vacation time, so it's deceptive to call it that. "Generous" would be better.
  - s1artibartfast 3y ago
    Can something be deceptive when it is still clear enough that no human is actually confused? It has deceptive potential if someone has no knowledge beyond the literal words, and assumes that there are no other restrictions, which I don't think is the appropriate reference. Anyone actually involved with unlimited vacation is provided the full context on operation. A policy name not being self contained and fully self explanatory does not constitute deception. I think it is reasonably descriptive. There is no policy limit to the number of vacation days. It is discretionary. I think it is a bad deal for most, but don't think anyone is being tricked
    - massysett 3y ago
      There are ways to word this without being deceptive. American Express charge cards do not claim to have “unlimited spending power.” They say “no preset spending limit” and explain that they constantly evaluate how much you can charge. “Unlimited vacation” is wantonly and aggressively inaccurate and is, therefore, a scam.
      - s1artibartfast 3y ago
        If you define the threshold for "wantonly and aggressively inaccurate" so low that nobody has ever been confused, you are in for a lot of frustration and grievances.

boplicity 3y ago

> Yet pay is the point of work, wouldn't you say? If that's what I thought about work, I would be quite depressed. Fortunately, I find meaning in my work that has nothing to do with pay. Of course, if I didn't get paid, it would be a problem -- but pay is very much not the point. (Especially because my needs are met.)

s1artibartfast 3y ago
I think you are in the minority there. I don't know anyone that would go to their job if not for the pay.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  That sort of supports the notion that people tend to be unhappy in their jobs, doesn't it? If the only reason to go to a job is to get paid, that's a strong indicator that the job sucks.
  - s1artibartfast 3y ago
    I think it basically synonymous the notion that people are unhappy with their jobs. However, I don't think it says anything definitive about if the job sucks or not- There are far too many other factors. It says a lot more about life choices , priorities, and compromise. Don't get me wrong, some jobs suck, but a lot of people also work great jobs they personally hate. For example, some people hate programing, corporate environments, and living in the bay area but do it for the $$$. That doesnt mean the job sucks, just that they have traded money for work they don't like. No amounts of employee perks is going to turn a programing job into being an artist, or whatever, if that is what someone actually enjoys.
    - JohnFen 3y ago
      > I don't think it says anything definitive about if the job sucks or not Well, yes. I don't think there are many jobs that objectively suck. For almost all jobs, there are people who will be miserable doing them and there are other people who live for it. I should have said the "job sucks for them".

orwin 3y ago

I think I've found the upper limit on vacation time at my second job, it was 63 days (on a 5 day week). I had to take like 45 of those (the rest way convertible into money). I usually like time off more than money, but I couldn't find the time to plan those 60+ days (and I also was obese and on a very bad ankle, so hiking and 'cheap' vacations were harder to plan :/)

JohnFen 3y ago

> Yet pay is the point of work, wouldn't you say? It is one of the purposes of work, but not the only one (if the job is a good one, anyway). But that's orthogonal to the point. An income is necessary to live, but it isn't what brings happiness. > I think you really have to cherry pick to beat tech. I think it depends on what you value. I've had plenty of low-wage manual labor jobs, and a couple of those had far better working conditions than most of what I experienced as a developer.