6 ms·

Apple's chip lab, home to the most 'profound change' in decades

54 points by retskrad 3y ago

TillE 3y ago
> "...pretty much all Macs are capable of running Triple-A titles, which is not what it was like five years ago.” It's interesting that Apple keeps making this point, and that they released the Game Porting Toolkit. I don't think we're going to see like an Apple Switch device, but they do seem to care about console/PC-quality games in a way they never have before.
- fsloth 3y ago
  Games have reached IP prestige parity with movies, music & books. Before they were perceived as some combination of ’geeky waste of time’ and ’unhealthy obsession’.
  - adastra22 3y ago
    Still are…
    - fsloth 3y ago
      Not sure what you mean. People like me (40+ male) are a huge segment and plausibly spend much more time in games than movies and music. By revenue games are possibly bigger than movies and music combined (global revenue). Not everyone needs to like games buy many do and the industry revenue is quite massive compared to any other entertainment.
      - adastra22 3y ago
        Still perceived as 'geeky waste of time' and 'unhealthy obsession'. Just an economically successful one.
        fsloth 3y ago
        That sentiment is strongly waning, imo. Chess was similarly dismissed at one point when it became a fad. Gaming is fairly mainstream nowadays. But probably depends who you ask.
- baz00 3y ago
  The thing is they probably will run triple-A titles but how well and how modern a triple-A title? Starfield, Cyberpunk 2077, GTA 6 when it comes out? I doubt it.
- izacus 3y ago
  > I don't think we're going to see like an Apple Switch device, but they do seem to care about console/PC-quality games in a way they never have before. I think we see this sentence said every few years (or at least a similar one, related to iOS). It'll slowly be as evergreen as "the year of Linux desktop". Meanwhile, the amount of games that actually are available and running in ARM64 mode on macOS is still miniscule. Honestly, Game Porting Toolking doesn't seem like a product built by company that's serious about gaming - it's a developer tool that still needs the developer to do extra work to actually publish the game for Macs. Compare this to approach Valve took on Steam Deck and you'll see just how a company that takes games seriously works.
  - smoldesu 3y ago
    Exactly. Game Porting Toolkit is an awesome showing, but the intention is in the name; it's not a compatibility layer, it's a porting tool. Eventually it will go away, and you'll be stuck with the same Mojave/Catalina-style cutoff for all your old games. Apple could make things so much easier by just shipping MacOS with a native Vulkan driver and letting the community maintain the DXVK translator like all the other GPUs. It wouldn't diminish the demand for Metal (it's still the only option on many platforms) and it would bring Mac back up to parity with other OSes. Maybe a renewed commitment to supporting Rosetta would also help seal the deal.
  - DistractionRect 3y ago
    Things like Proton aren't something that shipped overnight, it's a teething process. In fairness, Valve originally did take the same approach. Proton was born from the ashes of Steam Machines - Linux boxes that developers had to create a port for. Similarly, WSL, WSL2, WSLg, and WSA are born from the ashes of Windows Phones and Project Astoria. They aren't quite there yet, but I expect another shot at mobiles in the future. Apple will have to go through the same teething process. Their rendering pipeline is wanting in some ways, and that'll only be sorted through painful experience. Console emulators (E.g. Yuzu/Ryujinx) are in the same vein as Proton, so if you want a health check on what problems something like Proton for Apple would face, you can see what problems the emulators are currently dealing with//hacking around.
- vlovich123 3y ago
  I don’t know. They’ve always touted games from time to time. The key limitation is that AAA games are expensive, game developers don’t have experience targeting Mac, and until Apple starts shelling out serious money to seed that market, it’s probably not going to happen. Look at what happened with Google and their failed strategy (there was a lot else wrong, but title availability and porting difficulty was definitely an issue)
- GeekyBear 3y ago
  They finally have a gaming strategy that makes sense. Now that iOS devices and Macs have the same CPU cores, GPU cores, and APIs, targeting Apple hardware gives you a much bigger user base that you can target than you've ever seen previously with Intel/Power PC based Macs.
  - polyomino 3y ago
    This is the same failed strategy that Microsoft tried with windows 10 uwp. The control schemes and form factors matter so developers don’t get much benefit.
    - I_Am_Nous 3y ago
      Windows PCs can have such a wide range of hardware that this seems like an attempted software solution to a pretty difficult to solve problem. Compare that to Apple, where there isn't such a disparity between two separate computers, and it makes more sense to try to target MacOS under that logic than it does. Whether it will play out different is for consumers and developers to decide.
      - filoleg 3y ago
        Wow, this is a really good point I haven’t thought of before. And the thing is, it could work. Because that’s pretty much the main relative advantage consoles have over gaming PCs - extremely narrow range of hardware, which allows consoles squeeze out better performance than a gaming PC with comparable hardware specs (of course the PC will likely be cheaper, but that’s beside the point) on most games, because those games were extremely heavily optimized for that hardware. MacOS, under that logic, would come through somewhere in-between those two extremes - less disparity than between two random PCs, but more disparity than between two models in a single given console generation. Even funnier, I just realized that macOS major update support for any given mac is 6 years (and 10 for security updates iirc, but don’t quote me on that), which is about as many years as a single console generation lasts.
        3y ago
- polyomino 3y ago
  Because the Vision Pro has no compelling use case. Games is what you do when you don’t know what to do.
  - extrememacaroni 3y ago
    Or anime chatrooms.
  - I_Am_Nous 3y ago
    You're telling me "ignore my son's birthday party to watch Youtube videos on my face" isn't a compelling use case?? Staring awkwardly at my wife and saying "Yes sweetie I am definitely giving you my full attention" while I definitely am not is out too? Face computers have a lot of convincing to do before they are adopted widely.
    - filoleg 3y ago
      > You're telling me "ignore my son's birthday party to watch Youtube videos on my face" isn't a compelling use case?? > Staring awkwardly at my wife and saying "Yes sweetie I am definitely giving you my full attention" while I definitely am not is out too? You just described two scenarios that are already very common in the present day, if you swap the headset for a smartphone in them. Not saying it is a good thing at all, it isn’t. But given how many people currently don’t mind doing it with their phones (where their actions are on a clear display), I think significantly more people would be into those use cases with AR headsets (and in the future, glasses). It is literally the same thing as with phones, but more concealed/private. So it would capture both the existing group doing it with phones and plenty of new people. Note: I am aware that Vision Pro isn’t intended to be worn outside or for prolonged periods of time due to battery and just general headset thing, so no, I am not trying to claim it is going to replace smartphones for people. I was talking more about where this is headed, which will only be possible once the technology gets us to the point of a “regular looking glasses” type of a form factor (or something similarly unobstructive).
      - I_Am_Nous 3y ago
- crazygringo 3y ago
  I'm curious -- is there an ~objective comparison of how modern Macs (M1, M2, M3) compare to PS5, Xbox X/S, PS4, and Xbox One? And how it differs between passive cooling (MacBook Air) and active (Pro, Mini)? In terms of GPU and CPU and memory? I mean, could a M1 MacBook Air or Pro run a hypothetical native version of GTA V as well as the PS4 did? I'm assuming it can't match a PS5, but how close could it get?
  - adastra22 3y ago
    It’s really hard to compare because to exploit the Apple hardware to the fullest you have to rearchitect your code to run on Metal. That has been done for ~0% of the game code out there. So real world comparisons are rare.
  - jltsiren 3y ago
    By nominal TFLOPS, the GPUs in the M1 Max, M2 Max, and M3 Max are in the same neighborhood as PS5 and Xbox Series X. On the CPU side, even the base M1 is faster than any console. Apple pricing model creates artificial scarcity with memory and storage, which makes the base models poorly suited for gaming. Consoles ship with 16 GB memory and 1 TB SSD, while reaching the same numbers is still a $600 upgrade to the base M2/M3 Macs.
- bloopernova 3y ago
  I recently tried arm64 Factorio on an M1 Mac, and it's smooth as silk. It also loads within a couple of seconds even with dozens of Bob+Angels mods. The Mac seems to be only slightly warm while playing. I haven't yet played to the point of building enormous 4 lane railway squares, I'm intrigued to see just how much the M1 can handle. Great for entertainment, absolutely terrible for my productivity!
- corysama 3y ago
  Steve Jobs started out working on arcade games with Woz. Despite that, I got the impression he didn't care at all for video games. From what I've heard, the person who was originally in charge of the iOS App Store completely dismissed videogames altogether. He believed music was the only art form worthy of Apple. Rumor has it he actively sabotaged the effort to make Apple TV into a market-competitive game console. When he was moved to the iTunes team, iOS suddenly appreciated games. Between the two of them, Apple has been actively steered into not being a platform for games. Maybe that's finally (very slowly) changing.
- SuchAnonMuchWow 3y ago
  Honestly, given the crappy direction that windows is taking, I'm ready to abandon it the minute apple can run games seamlessly. And I doubt I'm the only one.
cedws 3y ago
I have so much respect for how Apple does things. The tight integration of hardware and software is not only better for the products and consumer experience, it also means higher margins for the company. There are not many companies that dare to take it so far. I was disappointed to hear that the baseband modem project has been killed off, but I suppose you've gotta pick your battles.
- aurareturn 3y ago
  It's not confirmed that the modem has been killed off. Just rumors.
- adwi 3y ago
  Can any electromagnetic (?) engineers here speak to the difficulties in creating these chips/antennas? Surprising to hear about Apple possibly failing at an engineering project for something that already exists, given their resources and access to talent. If true, could it be difficulty in creating new tech that gets around existing patents? Trying to achieve current results with less power? Unable to compete with the economics of just buying existing tech from competitors?
  - gumby 3y ago
    It's more than "just" a hard technical issue, which are complex but managable RF issues, a gajillion optional modes, complicated corner cases and compatibility with buggy/noncompliant widely deployed in the field. Apple has to do this without stepping on a welter of Qualcomm patents amassed over decades as the standards developed.
    - GeekyBear 3y ago
      Qualcomm's CDMA patents predated the standards setting process, so was a special case of Qualcomm having the undisputed ownership of a technology that was used in a subset of carriers in the US, for example, Verizon. However, now that all the carriers have moved to 4G and 5G, which are open standards, Qualcomm can no longer use patents to stop others from competing on a level playing field. Now they compete on the merits, and companies like Samsung, MediaTek and Huawei are all shipping their own standards compliant modems. I would expect to see Apple iterate on the tech until they have something they think is good enough to ship.
chasil 3y ago
> "Apple relies on Qualcomm for its modems, although in 2019, the two companies settled a two-year legal battle over intellectual property. Soon after, Apple bought the majority of Intel’s 5G modem business for $1 billion, in a likely move to develop its own cellular modem. That hasn’t happened yet, and in September, Apple signed on with Qualcomm to supply its modems through 2026." After Qualcomm proved that Apple was forwarding restricted technical documents to Intel, it seems likely that Qualcomm will take a very close view of any Apple modem, and vigorously enforce any patents that Apple is found to infringe. Bearing this in mind, why not second-source Mediatek 5g modems in a few models? An in-house effort is bound to keep the lawyers very busy for years to come. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/25/technology/qualcomm-apple-intel-stealing.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/25/technology/qualcomm-apple...
- alberth 3y ago
  > “Qualcomm will take a very close view of any Apple modem” Doubtful. Apple & Qualcomm settled such dispute. https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2019/04/qualcomm-and-apple-agree-to-drop-all-litigation/ https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2019/04/qualcomm-and-apple-ag...
  - sumtechguy 3y ago
    Qualcomm would not look? Come on... Qualcomm is a lawyer IP machine that happens to make cell chips.
    - alberth 3y ago
      From the link in my previous post: > ” The companies also have reached a six-year license agreement, effective as of April 1, 2019, including a two-year option to extend, and a multiyear chipset supply agreement” And Apple has already extended that agreement. https://www.qualcomm.com/news/releases/2023/09/qualcomm-announces-agreement-with-apple-for-chip-supply https://www.qualcomm.com/news/releases/2023/09/qualcomm-anno... Apple has paid to have all rights, and the companies have publicly stated they have settled. As such, there’s nothing for a Qualcomm lawyer to audit anymore.
gumby 3y ago
> But there’s a lot more to the biggest U.S. company by market cap than just gadgets. What a dumb statement. Those "gadgets" would not exist without those chips (and a bunch more besides). Also, if the word "gadget" is appropriate, it doesn't apply to the Mac (admittedly Apple's smallest segment). But I think it no longer applies to the phone either.
foobiekr 3y ago
This article appears to have been written by someone who heard about Apple's chips and, since it was new to them, decided it was actually new. Respect to Apple, but internal ASIC teams is nothing new in a lot of the tech industry, and I don't mean Google's TMU stuff or the Annapurna team at AWS. Those guys were following a long trend of ASIC teams in companies - e.g., ALL of the networking industry except Arista has been running this way for the last three decades. I mean, after the 68k era, the _entire Unix workstation market_ - IBM, HP, DEC, SGI, etc. - was entirely built around in-house ASIC teams building their own CPUs. I find it exciting, but what it really is, at the end of the day, is verticalization so that they don't have _as deep_ of a margin stack on their CPUs. Microsoft and Sony have gotten a series of custom CPUs and GPUs from AMD, Nvidia, etc. over the last twenty years without owning the whole stack or losing the ability to apply optimizations. That's been common forever. Apple is doing an amazing job. It started with acquiring the PA Semi team and has grown from there, they've been amazing and consistent about it and it's awesome execution and _sticking to the investment profile required_, but .. eh, the article just seems utterly unfamiliar with any broader context.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  >Respect to Apple, but internal ASIC teams is nothing new in a lot of the tech industry It's not new indeed, but Apple was the first to turn custom in house chips into a major selling point. For example Samsung was vertically integrated for a long time, with their in-house Exynos chips and modems, yet they couldn't capitalize with that in their phones, as they often fell behind Qualcomm in CPU-GPU performance, modem reception and battery life. Being vertically integrated is not enough if those parts you're making in house are mediocre and don't enhance the final product.
  - foobiekr 3y ago
    No, they aren’t. Literally any of the examples I give did that. Not in consumer, but elsewhere.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- 3y ago
nxobject 3y ago
Something I never quite realized – Johny Srouji's been at Apple for a while, even it looks like before the PA Semi acquisition. Keeping up with the chip industry is one thing; keeping up with the chip industry in an organization like Apple is another. As a source of both continuity, and in terms of influence on Apple's long-term vision as a company, that's amazing.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

54 points by retskrad 3y ago

> "...pretty much all Macs are capable of running Triple-A titles, which is not what it was like five years ago.” It's interesting that Apple keeps making this point, and that they released the Game Porting Toolkit. I don't think we're going to see like an Apple Switch device, but they do seem to care about console/PC-quality games in a way they never have before.

fsloth 3y ago
Games have reached IP prestige parity with movies, music & books. Before they were perceived as some combination of ’geeky waste of time’ and ’unhealthy obsession’.
- adastra22 3y ago
  Still are…
  - fsloth 3y ago
    Not sure what you mean. People like me (40+ male) are a huge segment and plausibly spend much more time in games than movies and music. By revenue games are possibly bigger than movies and music combined (global revenue). Not everyone needs to like games buy many do and the industry revenue is quite massive compared to any other entertainment.
    - adastra22 3y ago
      Still perceived as 'geeky waste of time' and 'unhealthy obsession'. Just an economically successful one.
      - fsloth 3y ago
        That sentiment is strongly waning, imo. Chess was similarly dismissed at one point when it became a fad. Gaming is fairly mainstream nowadays. But probably depends who you ask.
baz00 3y ago
The thing is they probably will run triple-A titles but how well and how modern a triple-A title? Starfield, Cyberpunk 2077, GTA 6 when it comes out? I doubt it.
izacus 3y ago
> I don't think we're going to see like an Apple Switch device, but they do seem to care about console/PC-quality games in a way they never have before. I think we see this sentence said every few years (or at least a similar one, related to iOS). It'll slowly be as evergreen as "the year of Linux desktop". Meanwhile, the amount of games that actually are available and running in ARM64 mode on macOS is still miniscule. Honestly, Game Porting Toolking doesn't seem like a product built by company that's serious about gaming - it's a developer tool that still needs the developer to do extra work to actually publish the game for Macs. Compare this to approach Valve took on Steam Deck and you'll see just how a company that takes games seriously works.
- smoldesu 3y ago
  Exactly. Game Porting Toolkit is an awesome showing, but the intention is in the name; it's not a compatibility layer, it's a porting tool. Eventually it will go away, and you'll be stuck with the same Mojave/Catalina-style cutoff for all your old games. Apple could make things so much easier by just shipping MacOS with a native Vulkan driver and letting the community maintain the DXVK translator like all the other GPUs. It wouldn't diminish the demand for Metal (it's still the only option on many platforms) and it would bring Mac back up to parity with other OSes. Maybe a renewed commitment to supporting Rosetta would also help seal the deal.
- DistractionRect 3y ago
  Things like Proton aren't something that shipped overnight, it's a teething process. In fairness, Valve originally did take the same approach. Proton was born from the ashes of Steam Machines - Linux boxes that developers had to create a port for. Similarly, WSL, WSL2, WSLg, and WSA are born from the ashes of Windows Phones and Project Astoria. They aren't quite there yet, but I expect another shot at mobiles in the future. Apple will have to go through the same teething process. Their rendering pipeline is wanting in some ways, and that'll only be sorted through painful experience. Console emulators (E.g. Yuzu/Ryujinx) are in the same vein as Proton, so if you want a health check on what problems something like Proton for Apple would face, you can see what problems the emulators are currently dealing with//hacking around.
vlovich123 3y ago
I don’t know. They’ve always touted games from time to time. The key limitation is that AAA games are expensive, game developers don’t have experience targeting Mac, and until Apple starts shelling out serious money to seed that market, it’s probably not going to happen. Look at what happened with Google and their failed strategy (there was a lot else wrong, but title availability and porting difficulty was definitely an issue)
GeekyBear 3y ago
They finally have a gaming strategy that makes sense. Now that iOS devices and Macs have the same CPU cores, GPU cores, and APIs, targeting Apple hardware gives you a much bigger user base that you can target than you've ever seen previously with Intel/Power PC based Macs.
- polyomino 3y ago
  This is the same failed strategy that Microsoft tried with windows 10 uwp. The control schemes and form factors matter so developers don’t get much benefit.
  - I_Am_Nous 3y ago
    Windows PCs can have such a wide range of hardware that this seems like an attempted software solution to a pretty difficult to solve problem. Compare that to Apple, where there isn't such a disparity between two separate computers, and it makes more sense to try to target MacOS under that logic than it does. Whether it will play out different is for consumers and developers to decide.
    - filoleg 3y ago
      Wow, this is a really good point I haven’t thought of before. And the thing is, it could work. Because that’s pretty much the main relative advantage consoles have over gaming PCs - extremely narrow range of hardware, which allows consoles squeeze out better performance than a gaming PC with comparable hardware specs (of course the PC will likely be cheaper, but that’s beside the point) on most games, because those games were extremely heavily optimized for that hardware. MacOS, under that logic, would come through somewhere in-between those two extremes - less disparity than between two random PCs, but more disparity than between two models in a single given console generation. Even funnier, I just realized that macOS major update support for any given mac is 6 years (and 10 for security updates iirc, but don’t quote me on that), which is about as many years as a single console generation lasts.
      - 3y ago
polyomino 3y ago
Because the Vision Pro has no compelling use case. Games is what you do when you don’t know what to do.
- extrememacaroni 3y ago
  Or anime chatrooms.
- I_Am_Nous 3y ago
  You're telling me "ignore my son's birthday party to watch Youtube videos on my face" isn't a compelling use case?? Staring awkwardly at my wife and saying "Yes sweetie I am definitely giving you my full attention" while I definitely am not is out too? Face computers have a lot of convincing to do before they are adopted widely.
  - filoleg 3y ago
    > You're telling me "ignore my son's birthday party to watch Youtube videos on my face" isn't a compelling use case?? > Staring awkwardly at my wife and saying "Yes sweetie I am definitely giving you my full attention" while I definitely am not is out too? You just described two scenarios that are already very common in the present day, if you swap the headset for a smartphone in them. Not saying it is a good thing at all, it isn’t. But given how many people currently don’t mind doing it with their phones (where their actions are on a clear display), I think significantly more people would be into those use cases with AR headsets (and in the future, glasses). It is literally the same thing as with phones, but more concealed/private. So it would capture both the existing group doing it with phones and plenty of new people. Note: I am aware that Vision Pro isn’t intended to be worn outside or for prolonged periods of time due to battery and just general headset thing, so no, I am not trying to claim it is going to replace smartphones for people. I was talking more about where this is headed, which will only be possible once the technology gets us to the point of a “regular looking glasses” type of a form factor (or something similarly unobstructive).
    - I_Am_Nous 3y ago
crazygringo 3y ago
I'm curious -- is there an ~objective comparison of how modern Macs (M1, M2, M3) compare to PS5, Xbox X/S, PS4, and Xbox One? And how it differs between passive cooling (MacBook Air) and active (Pro, Mini)? In terms of GPU and CPU and memory? I mean, could a M1 MacBook Air or Pro run a hypothetical native version of GTA V as well as the PS4 did? I'm assuming it can't match a PS5, but how close could it get?
- adastra22 3y ago
  It’s really hard to compare because to exploit the Apple hardware to the fullest you have to rearchitect your code to run on Metal. That has been done for ~0% of the game code out there. So real world comparisons are rare.
- jltsiren 3y ago
  By nominal TFLOPS, the GPUs in the M1 Max, M2 Max, and M3 Max are in the same neighborhood as PS5 and Xbox Series X. On the CPU side, even the base M1 is faster than any console. Apple pricing model creates artificial scarcity with memory and storage, which makes the base models poorly suited for gaming. Consoles ship with 16 GB memory and 1 TB SSD, while reaching the same numbers is still a $600 upgrade to the base M2/M3 Macs.
bloopernova 3y ago
I recently tried arm64 Factorio on an M1 Mac, and it's smooth as silk. It also loads within a couple of seconds even with dozens of Bob+Angels mods. The Mac seems to be only slightly warm while playing. I haven't yet played to the point of building enormous 4 lane railway squares, I'm intrigued to see just how much the M1 can handle. Great for entertainment, absolutely terrible for my productivity!
corysama 3y ago
Steve Jobs started out working on arcade games with Woz. Despite that, I got the impression he didn't care at all for video games. From what I've heard, the person who was originally in charge of the iOS App Store completely dismissed videogames altogether. He believed music was the only art form worthy of Apple. Rumor has it he actively sabotaged the effort to make Apple TV into a market-competitive game console. When he was moved to the iTunes team, iOS suddenly appreciated games. Between the two of them, Apple has been actively steered into not being a platform for games. Maybe that's finally (very slowly) changing.
SuchAnonMuchWow 3y ago
Honestly, given the crappy direction that windows is taking, I'm ready to abandon it the minute apple can run games seamlessly. And I doubt I'm the only one.

cedws 3y ago

I have so much respect for how Apple does things. The tight integration of hardware and software is not only better for the products and consumer experience, it also means higher margins for the company. There are not many companies that dare to take it so far. I was disappointed to hear that the baseband modem project has been killed off, but I suppose you've gotta pick your battles.

aurareturn 3y ago
It's not confirmed that the modem has been killed off. Just rumors.
adwi 3y ago
Can any electromagnetic (?) engineers here speak to the difficulties in creating these chips/antennas? Surprising to hear about Apple possibly failing at an engineering project for something that already exists, given their resources and access to talent. If true, could it be difficulty in creating new tech that gets around existing patents? Trying to achieve current results with less power? Unable to compete with the economics of just buying existing tech from competitors?
- gumby 3y ago
  It's more than "just" a hard technical issue, which are complex but managable RF issues, a gajillion optional modes, complicated corner cases and compatibility with buggy/noncompliant widely deployed in the field. Apple has to do this without stepping on a welter of Qualcomm patents amassed over decades as the standards developed.
  - GeekyBear 3y ago
    Qualcomm's CDMA patents predated the standards setting process, so was a special case of Qualcomm having the undisputed ownership of a technology that was used in a subset of carriers in the US, for example, Verizon. However, now that all the carriers have moved to 4G and 5G, which are open standards, Qualcomm can no longer use patents to stop others from competing on a level playing field. Now they compete on the merits, and companies like Samsung, MediaTek and Huawei are all shipping their own standards compliant modems. I would expect to see Apple iterate on the tech until they have something they think is good enough to ship.

chasil 3y ago

> "Apple relies on Qualcomm for its modems, although in 2019, the two companies settled a two-year legal battle over intellectual property. Soon after, Apple bought the majority of Intel’s 5G modem business for $1 billion, in a likely move to develop its own cellular modem. That hasn’t happened yet, and in September, Apple signed on with Qualcomm to supply its modems through 2026." After Qualcomm proved that Apple was forwarding restricted technical documents to Intel, it seems likely that Qualcomm will take a very close view of any Apple modem, and vigorously enforce any patents that Apple is found to infringe. Bearing this in mind, why not second-source Mediatek 5g modems in a few models? An in-house effort is bound to keep the lawyers very busy for years to come. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/25/technology/qualcomm-apple-intel-stealing.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/25/technology/qualcomm-apple...

alberth 3y ago
> “Qualcomm will take a very close view of any Apple modem” Doubtful. Apple & Qualcomm settled such dispute. https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2019/04/qualcomm-and-apple-agree-to-drop-all-litigation/ https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2019/04/qualcomm-and-apple-ag...
- sumtechguy 3y ago
  Qualcomm would not look? Come on... Qualcomm is a lawyer IP machine that happens to make cell chips.
  - alberth 3y ago
    From the link in my previous post: > ” The companies also have reached a six-year license agreement, effective as of April 1, 2019, including a two-year option to extend, and a multiyear chipset supply agreement” And Apple has already extended that agreement. https://www.qualcomm.com/news/releases/2023/09/qualcomm-announces-agreement-with-apple-for-chip-supply https://www.qualcomm.com/news/releases/2023/09/qualcomm-anno... Apple has paid to have all rights, and the companies have publicly stated they have settled. As such, there’s nothing for a Qualcomm lawyer to audit anymore.

gumby 3y ago

> But there’s a lot more to the biggest U.S. company by market cap than just gadgets. What a dumb statement. Those "gadgets" would not exist without those chips (and a bunch more besides). Also, if the word "gadget" is appropriate, it doesn't apply to the Mac (admittedly Apple's smallest segment). But I think it no longer applies to the phone either.

foobiekr 3y ago

This article appears to have been written by someone who heard about Apple's chips and, since it was new to them, decided it was actually new. Respect to Apple, but internal ASIC teams is nothing new in a lot of the tech industry, and I don't mean Google's TMU stuff or the Annapurna team at AWS. Those guys were following a long trend of ASIC teams in companies - e.g., ALL of the networking industry except Arista has been running this way for the last three decades. I mean, after the 68k era, the _entire Unix workstation market_ - IBM, HP, DEC, SGI, etc. - was entirely built around in-house ASIC teams building their own CPUs. I find it exciting, but what it really is, at the end of the day, is verticalization so that they don't have _as deep_ of a margin stack on their CPUs. Microsoft and Sony have gotten a series of custom CPUs and GPUs from AMD, Nvidia, etc. over the last twenty years without owning the whole stack or losing the ability to apply optimizations. That's been common forever. Apple is doing an amazing job. It started with acquiring the PA Semi team and has grown from there, they've been amazing and consistent about it and it's awesome execution and _sticking to the investment profile required_, but .. eh, the article just seems utterly unfamiliar with any broader context.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
>Respect to Apple, but internal ASIC teams is nothing new in a lot of the tech industry It's not new indeed, but Apple was the first to turn custom in house chips into a major selling point. For example Samsung was vertically integrated for a long time, with their in-house Exynos chips and modems, yet they couldn't capitalize with that in their phones, as they often fell behind Qualcomm in CPU-GPU performance, modem reception and battery life. Being vertically integrated is not enough if those parts you're making in house are mediocre and don't enhance the final product.
- foobiekr 3y ago
  No, they aren’t. Literally any of the examples I give did that. Not in consumer, but elsewhere.
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nxobject 3y ago

Something I never quite realized – Johny Srouji's been at Apple for a while, even it looks like before the PA Semi acquisition. Keeping up with the chip industry is one thing; keeping up with the chip industry in an organization like Apple is another. As a source of both continuity, and in terms of influence on Apple's long-term vision as a company, that's amazing.

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