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Crosswalks in busy areas shouldn't have buttons and should allow pedestrian crossings automatically as part of the cycle. In less dense areas, buttons should ch

Crosswalks in busy areas shouldn't have buttons and should allow pedestrian crossings automatically as part of the cycle. In less dense areas, buttons should change the light more or less immediately to allow pedestrian crossing. Neither of these scenarios are usually the case since these intersections are almost always designed with cars as the paramount concern and pedestrians as an afterthought. I recently visited Bellevue, WA and experienced one of the most anti-pedestrian "walking streets" I have ever encountered. Crosswalk buttons on a busy street full of shops and restaurants, yes, but even worse were the orange flags left out for pedestrians to grab and use like they are part-time crossing guards. No stop signs. No speed bumps. Just orange flags for the suckers walking instead of driving. To add insult to injury, the flags always ended up on one side of the street, making the entire project half-broken at best. The worst part: this is their literal Main Street.

strangesmells06 3y ago
I kind of think cars should be the paramount concern. Its a road after all
- snthd 3y ago
  Roads were not built for cars.
  - wsve 3y ago
    Well, historically yes, but this has stopped being true for the past ~80 years
  - strangesmells06 3y ago
    The entire United States was designed for cars, commuting, freight, and trucking. I hate it as much as you but thats the reality.
WheatMillington 3y ago
>In less dense areas, buttons should change the light more or less immediately to allow pedestrian crossing. I'm not sure I understand the reasoning for this. If a car approaches a less-busy intersection it triggers the lights to cycle, but not immediately. I'm not sure why pedestrians would get such priority, rather being placed into the natural cycle. FWIW I just came back from Thailand and it was rather eye opening - crosswalks are ignored by motorists, and there's much less hand-holding, but people manage to get by. There's more give-and-take rather than rigid rule following.
- thesh4d0w 3y ago
  > but people manage to get by You might think so, until you look up the accident rates. https://www.roadsafetyfacility.org/country/thailand https://www.roadsafetyfacility.org/country/thailand
- bobthepanda 3y ago
  In the Netherlands, bicycles and pedestrians get default priority, and often car lights go green when they detect a car in a loop in time for the car to reach the intersection. This setup as I understand is preferred because it aligns with their modal priorities, and it is easier and more reliable to detect a heavy metal car than a person or a bicycle.
- standardUser 3y ago
  Depending on the intersection, having a pedestrian crossing as part of the cycle can slow the flow of traffic. Instead of having it cycle for pedestrians every time, even when no one is there, the button can interrupt the normal cycle and allow the pedestrian to cross. But most of the time, the intersection will be working optimally for cars, since we're assuming pedestrians are few and far between. I feel like I've seen a lot of these intersections near freeways in strip-mall type areas. Except the way they function currently, that occasional pedestrian has to potentially wait a long time.
- a4000 3y ago
  I also just got back from Bangkok and frankly crossing busy streets is one of the worst aspects of the place, it really makes it very difficult to easily get around on foot and you are really placing a lot of faith that drivers are actually paying attention when you step out onto a main road.
varelse 3y ago
[dead]
laurencerowe 3y ago
American crosswalks are just insane. In Europe cars are not allowed to drive through the crossing on the "walk" signal. In the US the pedestrian is expected to run the gauntlet, hoping that turning cars will see you and not mow you down. Pretty sure this is what is going to kill me, and that's in one of the more pedestrian friendly cities in the country, San Francisco. Keep the button, but for goodness sake stop letting cars drive through crosswalks in the "walk" phase.
- standardUser 3y ago
  I lived in downtown SF for a long time and I agree the crosswalks are a battlefield. Not just cars edging ahead or making right turns (or left turns on one way to one way), but cyclists like to stop square in the middle of crosswalks as well. I live in NY now and though the traffic laws are roughly the same, I almost never fear for my safety when crossing like I regularly did in SF.
  - alistairSH 3y ago
    FWIW, cyclists do that for their own safety. It gets them out from between the cars stacked up behind. And also lets them clear the intersection while most cars are stopped (cross traffic stopped, same-way traffic only getting started). While you’re asking for better pedestrian infrastructure, consider asking for protected bike lanes as well.
    - plorkyeran 3y ago
      Yeah, I try not to block crosswalks if it looks like anyone will be using it, but partially into the crosswalk often feels like the safest place to be while waiting for a light.
      - imp0cat 3y ago
        We get those bike "boxes" - the first spot right next to the lights, that is reserved for cyclists - and they help a lot.
tehcheat418 3y ago
To be fair while being named literally Main Street, this is not the current Main Street and the area is called old Bellevue
cozzyd 3y ago
yeah I'm a little confused because practically all crosswalks in Chicago no longer have beg buttons. Maybe this wasn't true in 2015. This might be one across Lake Shore Drive, at Monroe perhaps (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8810438,-87.6172572,3a,75y,265.9h,79.73t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sDZN5cRoxWsMPauQS5Vwtog!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8810438,-87.6172572,3a,75y,2...)? That does have a beg button but despite living a few blocks from there, I'm not sure if it does anything or not...
pmontra 3y ago
> In less dense areas, buttons should change the light more or less immediately to allow pedestrian crossing I second this. As a pedestrian it's pointless to have to wait when there were no other pedestrians crossing shortly before me and there won't be any shortly after me. As a driver it's infuriating to have to stop at an empty crossing because the pedestrians eventually crossed during a short gap between the cars when they got tired waiting.
mcv 3y ago
Some Dutch crosswalks give pedestrians always green, unless a car is detected, and then the pedestrian light turns red and the car gets green. The advantage of this is that it's pretty easy to detect cars by detection loops in the road, and if you detect them in time, the car doesn't even have to slow down. Unless there are too many of them; then they will sometimes have to wait for pedestrians to cross. I don't quite understand what the flags in Bellevue are for. Are there no traffic lights? But then what are the crosswalk buttons for?
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  > I don't quite understand what the flags in Bellevue are for. Are there no traffic lights? But then what are the crosswalk buttons for? It is a cheap non solution that allows leaders to say they did something without actually doing something that would require a sacrifice, such as money, or in the case, sacrificing the convenience of drivers who are presumably more politically powerfully than pedestrians.
  - mcv 3y ago
    I get that, but it doesn't answer my question. Is there a crosswalk button without traffic lights? Are there lights but you still need to carry a flag? What exactly are the function of the button and the flag in this setup?
    - lotsofpulp 3y ago
      Presumably, the flag is to increase the visibility of a pedestrian to increase the probability that a driver notices them. The crosswalk buttons work, the traffic lights turn red, but that does not mean a driver will pay attention and check for pedestrians. Right turns on red lights are allowed. As are left turns on greens, while the walk signal will simultaneously tell a person they can walk across the road. In both cases, the traffic light does not stop the driver, the driver has to be actively checking for a pedestrian.
    - standardUser 3y ago
      The crosswalk with the flags does not have a light, just a crosswalk, so cars will drive without slowing down unless a pedestrian is present. The flags simply make the pedestrian more obvious to the motorists. In other areas I've seen crosswalks with buttons that will flash lights to alter motorists. All of this absurdity could be solved with a simple stop sign, but that would be a minor inconvenience to motorists.
k99x55 3y ago
Beg buttons (aka crosswalk buttons) in pedestrian-heavy areas should be green to pedestrians, red to drivers by default. Drivers should roll the windows down, and press the beg button and wait for their turn. Cities are for people first, not machines· If they can roll their windows down in drive-ins, they can role to beg for permission to cross.
- simplyluke 3y ago
  Detecting a cars arrival at an intersection has been a solved engineering problem for many decades (pressure plates 60+ years ago, induction loops today). It’s a much harder problem for a 150lb pedestrian with a small footprint who isn’t magnetic. The other challenge with induction loops is for cyclists on higher end bikes with carbon frames/rims.
  - k99x55 3y ago
    Enough of subsidizing fancy tech to for drivers convenience. Taxpayer should not pay for drivers not to have to open their windows. If they can't roll down their windows, then they should not be driving.
eddd-ddde 3y ago
I was to Seattle and coming from Mexico where most streets you just cross without cars stopping for you, I somehow felt more oppressed by cars in the US. Even when the crossing is active for you, you still have to compete with turning cars. Also, unprotected left turns are just crazy dangerous.

strangesmells06 3y ago

I kind of think cars should be the paramount concern. Its a road after all

snthd 3y ago
Roads were not built for cars.
- wsve 3y ago
  Well, historically yes, but this has stopped being true for the past ~80 years
- strangesmells06 3y ago
  The entire United States was designed for cars, commuting, freight, and trucking. I hate it as much as you but thats the reality.

WheatMillington 3y ago

>In less dense areas, buttons should change the light more or less immediately to allow pedestrian crossing. I'm not sure I understand the reasoning for this. If a car approaches a less-busy intersection it triggers the lights to cycle, but not immediately. I'm not sure why pedestrians would get such priority, rather being placed into the natural cycle. FWIW I just came back from Thailand and it was rather eye opening - crosswalks are ignored by motorists, and there's much less hand-holding, but people manage to get by. There's more give-and-take rather than rigid rule following.

thesh4d0w 3y ago
> but people manage to get by You might think so, until you look up the accident rates. https://www.roadsafetyfacility.org/country/thailand https://www.roadsafetyfacility.org/country/thailand
bobthepanda 3y ago
In the Netherlands, bicycles and pedestrians get default priority, and often car lights go green when they detect a car in a loop in time for the car to reach the intersection. This setup as I understand is preferred because it aligns with their modal priorities, and it is easier and more reliable to detect a heavy metal car than a person or a bicycle.
standardUser 3y ago
Depending on the intersection, having a pedestrian crossing as part of the cycle can slow the flow of traffic. Instead of having it cycle for pedestrians every time, even when no one is there, the button can interrupt the normal cycle and allow the pedestrian to cross. But most of the time, the intersection will be working optimally for cars, since we're assuming pedestrians are few and far between. I feel like I've seen a lot of these intersections near freeways in strip-mall type areas. Except the way they function currently, that occasional pedestrian has to potentially wait a long time.
a4000 3y ago
I also just got back from Bangkok and frankly crossing busy streets is one of the worst aspects of the place, it really makes it very difficult to easily get around on foot and you are really placing a lot of faith that drivers are actually paying attention when you step out onto a main road.

varelse 3y ago

[dead]

laurencerowe 3y ago

American crosswalks are just insane. In Europe cars are not allowed to drive through the crossing on the "walk" signal. In the US the pedestrian is expected to run the gauntlet, hoping that turning cars will see you and not mow you down. Pretty sure this is what is going to kill me, and that's in one of the more pedestrian friendly cities in the country, San Francisco. Keep the button, but for goodness sake stop letting cars drive through crosswalks in the "walk" phase.

standardUser 3y ago
I lived in downtown SF for a long time and I agree the crosswalks are a battlefield. Not just cars edging ahead or making right turns (or left turns on one way to one way), but cyclists like to stop square in the middle of crosswalks as well. I live in NY now and though the traffic laws are roughly the same, I almost never fear for my safety when crossing like I regularly did in SF.
- alistairSH 3y ago
  FWIW, cyclists do that for their own safety. It gets them out from between the cars stacked up behind. And also lets them clear the intersection while most cars are stopped (cross traffic stopped, same-way traffic only getting started). While you’re asking for better pedestrian infrastructure, consider asking for protected bike lanes as well.
  - plorkyeran 3y ago
    Yeah, I try not to block crosswalks if it looks like anyone will be using it, but partially into the crosswalk often feels like the safest place to be while waiting for a light.
    - imp0cat 3y ago
      We get those bike "boxes" - the first spot right next to the lights, that is reserved for cyclists - and they help a lot.

tehcheat418 3y ago

To be fair while being named literally Main Street, this is not the current Main Street and the area is called old Bellevue

cozzyd 3y ago

yeah I'm a little confused because practically all crosswalks in Chicago no longer have beg buttons. Maybe this wasn't true in 2015. This might be one across Lake Shore Drive, at Monroe perhaps (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8810438,-87.6172572,3a,75y,265.9h,79.73t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sDZN5cRoxWsMPauQS5Vwtog!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8810438,-87.6172572,3a,75y,2...)? That does have a beg button but despite living a few blocks from there, I'm not sure if it does anything or not...

pmontra 3y ago

> In less dense areas, buttons should change the light more or less immediately to allow pedestrian crossing I second this. As a pedestrian it's pointless to have to wait when there were no other pedestrians crossing shortly before me and there won't be any shortly after me. As a driver it's infuriating to have to stop at an empty crossing because the pedestrians eventually crossed during a short gap between the cars when they got tired waiting.

mcv 3y ago

Some Dutch crosswalks give pedestrians always green, unless a car is detected, and then the pedestrian light turns red and the car gets green. The advantage of this is that it's pretty easy to detect cars by detection loops in the road, and if you detect them in time, the car doesn't even have to slow down. Unless there are too many of them; then they will sometimes have to wait for pedestrians to cross. I don't quite understand what the flags in Bellevue are for. Are there no traffic lights? But then what are the crosswalk buttons for?

lotsofpulp 3y ago
> I don't quite understand what the flags in Bellevue are for. Are there no traffic lights? But then what are the crosswalk buttons for? It is a cheap non solution that allows leaders to say they did something without actually doing something that would require a sacrifice, such as money, or in the case, sacrificing the convenience of drivers who are presumably more politically powerfully than pedestrians.
- mcv 3y ago
  I get that, but it doesn't answer my question. Is there a crosswalk button without traffic lights? Are there lights but you still need to carry a flag? What exactly are the function of the button and the flag in this setup?
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    Presumably, the flag is to increase the visibility of a pedestrian to increase the probability that a driver notices them. The crosswalk buttons work, the traffic lights turn red, but that does not mean a driver will pay attention and check for pedestrians. Right turns on red lights are allowed. As are left turns on greens, while the walk signal will simultaneously tell a person they can walk across the road. In both cases, the traffic light does not stop the driver, the driver has to be actively checking for a pedestrian.
  - standardUser 3y ago
    The crosswalk with the flags does not have a light, just a crosswalk, so cars will drive without slowing down unless a pedestrian is present. The flags simply make the pedestrian more obvious to the motorists. In other areas I've seen crosswalks with buttons that will flash lights to alter motorists. All of this absurdity could be solved with a simple stop sign, but that would be a minor inconvenience to motorists.

k99x55 3y ago

Beg buttons (aka crosswalk buttons) in pedestrian-heavy areas should be green to pedestrians, red to drivers by default. Drivers should roll the windows down, and press the beg button and wait for their turn. Cities are for people first, not machines· If they can roll their windows down in drive-ins, they can role to beg for permission to cross.

simplyluke 3y ago
Detecting a cars arrival at an intersection has been a solved engineering problem for many decades (pressure plates 60+ years ago, induction loops today). It’s a much harder problem for a 150lb pedestrian with a small footprint who isn’t magnetic. The other challenge with induction loops is for cyclists on higher end bikes with carbon frames/rims.
- k99x55 3y ago
  Enough of subsidizing fancy tech to for drivers convenience. Taxpayer should not pay for drivers not to have to open their windows. If they can't roll down their windows, then they should not be driving.

eddd-ddde 3y ago

I was to Seattle and coming from Mexico where most streets you just cross without cars stopping for you, I somehow felt more oppressed by cars in the US. Even when the crossing is active for you, you still have to compete with turning cars. Also, unprotected left turns are just crazy dangerous.