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Orion Browser by Kagi

271 points by cottonseed 3y ago

droopyEyelids 3y ago
Kagi is in the “this is fucking awesome” part of a tech company lifecycle.
- EA-3167 3y ago
  It really is. I switched to them a while ago and I've used Google maybe 4-5 times since, in over a year. Never looked back.
- biglyburrito 3y ago
  Yup. Search results are as good in Kagi as Google used to be 10yrs ago, before it became an SEO-tuned, malware-infested garbage pile. Worth $5/month.
  - Exoristos 3y ago
    I would pay $1 or $2 a month, not $5.
    - ploum 3y ago
      If the switched to 2$ a month, they might double their customer base. And still earn less money (not even counting the costs). So, sadly, it is sometimes smart to be expensive.
    - carlosjobim 3y ago
      People say this, but it's rarely true. Anybody running a subscription service quickly learns that it's not worth bothering with customers who won't pay at least $5 per month. They're the most trouble for the least income.
  - ipaddr 3y ago
    I highly disagree, google 10 year ago had nsfw content, it had a great long tail. I signed up and found it to have little depth and it skips most of the web. It does a great job of filtering out spam but it equally good at filtering out everything else. Tech related it's great. For shopping not so great. For local not so great. For science, education it's pretty decent. For anything like torrents or coupon sites or sites in other languages it's not the best.
shepherdjerred 3y ago
Just waiting for passkey support before I switch! https://orionfeedback.org/d/3025-support-passkeys/42 https://orionfeedback.org/d/3025-support-passkeys/42
yahmez 3y ago
If I load reddit.com on the iOS Orion browser the page is completely unresponsive. Anyone else experience this? Not a great first impression sadly.
- nicce 3y ago
  Yes. But maybe Reddit is not the best benchmarck due to their user-hostile behaviour anyway (well, maybe it is "best" because of this). The only purpose of mobile website is to make the user to download their app.
- chronicsonic 3y ago
  I use Safari for Reddit because of the SinkIt extension: https://apps.apple.com/gb/app/sink-it-for-reddit/id6449873635 https://apps.apple.com/gb/app/sink-it-for-reddit/id644987363...
  - navanchauhan 3y ago
    I am running apollo with a patch to use my own API key. I am not sure what I am going to do when this eventually breaks
- freediver 3y ago
  This is due to built in content blockers. You can disable them on reddit and it will load fine.
mm263 3y ago
I've been using it for a while as my main browser and it suffers from all of the usual issues that early development stage browsers have: bugs, memory leaks. The bugs are nasty as well, I'm sometimes forced to switch back to Firefox: one example is once there was a build that crashed my browser when I opened a new tab in tree view. The extension support is in progress as well. UBlock Origin and BitWarden work, but YNAB Toolkit doesn't work too well. Overall if you are okay with alpha/beta testing a browser it's fine, but if not, stick with Firefox.
- ochronus 3y ago
  I had the same experience. Even if uBlock Origin kind of works, somehow it doesn't block the same number of ads as it does with other browsers, I wonder why. Same uBlock Origin version, same filters enabled, fewer ads blocked on Orion. I used this site for example to test: https://d3ward.github.io/toolz/adblock.html https://d3ward.github.io/toolz/adblock.html - scores 65% on orion and 99% on other browsers
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    I'm getting 99% on Orion with their content blockers and uBlock Origin (default lists only).
    - jostyee 3y ago
      The official documentation doesn't recommend this: https://help.kagi.com/orion/browser-extensions/ublock-origin.html https://help.kagi.com/orion/browser-extensions/ublock-origin... > For power users who want that last 10% with uBlock, we recommend disabling Orion's content blocker globally. Running both Orion blocking and uBlock may cause interference with each other.
  - Squarex 3y ago
    I get 100% with orion, ublock origin and nextdns combo. It's the only browser along with Firefox where I am able to get 100%.
  - 3y ago
mantra2 3y ago
How is it actually working now? The last time I tried it I felt it was pretty buggy -- but in an ideal world I'd love to switch.
- keyle 3y ago
  It's essentially Safari with ad blocking built in. Certain website I notice crap out, but it's pretty rare. I made the switch approx 6 months ago.
- d1sxeyes 3y ago
  Some bugs still. Mostly if I run into a bug, and I try to open the same site in Safari, I experience the same bug. Occasionally it'll do something stupid and hang completely, but I'd say maybe that happens once or twice a week, not enough to stop me using it (and I live in it most of the day).
  - mantra2 3y ago
    Interesting. I’m thinking of giving it another shot. In theory it sounds like the perfect browser for me. The only extension I use is uBlock and BitWarden so I don’t really care much for widespread support of extensions and it sounds like that’s the last really buggy part.
nicce 3y ago
Looks of the browser are pretty great and it has built-in most the features you would need. Some extensions do not work. E.g. BitWarden autofill does not work either as Chrome or Firefox extension. Some websites get laggy. Sometimes ChatGPT page lags so much that is unusable. Also if you browse GitHub, some views will lag very much, and make it unusable. Maybe some day it will be competitive also in compatibility. But since it is MacOS only, I always will need to use many browsers...
izzydata 3y ago
Are there any plans for Windows and Android releases?
- jijji 3y ago
  Forgot about Linux
  - SushiHippie 3y ago
    They are currently working on a linux beta/alpha version.
- wartijn_ 3y ago
  From their docs: “One day, we hope everyone will say Orion is the best browser for all Apple devices.” So I wouldn’t hold my breath.
- benrutter 3y ago
  From the website: > 1. Orion is currently available for Apple macOS, iPadOS and iOS. We are planning support for other platforms in the future. Zilch on timelines though, so don't know how much of a priority it is for them?
charcircuit 3y ago
Developing a complex product like a browser without telemetry will be hard. Especially if they are trying to commit to objectives like using minimal battery or memory. There are many many different websites so its hard to predict what your users are using the browser for.
- syndicatedjelly 3y ago
  I'm glad someone is trying to doing something hard that will benefit people. We need more companies that want to do the hard thing, not the easy profitable thing.
  - charcircuit 3y ago
    Telemetry would allow them to make their product better for more people and know where to invest to benefit their users more. In this case proitability is proxy for how much value people get from the proxy. The thought that something is bad because it is profitable is misguided.
    - ipaddr 3y ago
      Is all telemetry good in your eyes? Telemetry is a cheaper solution to hiring quality assurance. Many will feel sharing their usage details to increase profits is acceptance and others might feel this free product isn't so free anymore.
      - charcircuit 3y ago
        >Is all telemetry good in your eyes? No, collecting information on how many times someone types the sequence "abcd" is a waste of resources. Figuring out what telemetry will be useful and understanding the privacy implications is important. >Telemetry is a cheaper solution to hiring quality assurance. These are not comparable. Telemetry is about understanding how the product is operating. QA is about testing the product.
    - justinclift 3y ago
captn3m0 3y ago
Is it ever gonna be possible to support Safari Extensions and Time reporting/blocks via iOS? I can set time limit for HN if i use an app, or if I use Safari. Switching to Firefox (with the same WebKit backend) means no screen time limits apply.
vunderba 3y ago
As far as I know, Orion is the only iOS compatible browser that lets you load extensions from the Chrome store and possibly Firefox as well although I'm not sure about that.
- chronicsonic 3y ago
  Yes it also supports Firefox extensions. Bypass Paywall Clean is a great one.
  - vsnf 3y ago
    By what mechanism is it possible for this to be true when Firefox doesn't even support Firefox extensions?
    - freediver 3y ago
      Orion has a port of the web extensions API (used by Chrome and Firefox extensions) on top of WebKit.
      - vsnf 3y ago
        That's super interesting. I wonder why Mozilla didn't bother to do this for their own browser.
        getcrunk 3y ago
        Mozilla’s priorities are messed up instead of doubling down on browser they are getting into a lot of half assed side projects.
        saagarjha 3y ago
        It’s quite difficult to do and the solution is necessarily limited by the inability to modify WebKit.
    - 4ggr0 3y ago
      Is this a joke I'm not getting? Currently using FF on every device I use, with 3+ extensions.
scblock 3y ago
I use it as my daily driver, highly recommended.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
vsgherzi 3y ago
For me it's been more performant than safari esp on google based sites (google meet)
mgiampapa 3y ago
Since it supports iOS and iPadOS, does it use a fork of WebKit, or is it embedded Safari? What manifest API is it going to support going forward?
- smcleod 3y ago
  https://kagi.com/orion/faq.html https://kagi.com/orion/faq.html > How will manifest v2 extensions work with Orion after manifest v3 roll out in Chrome? > Same as before! Orion has its own implementation of the entire web extensions API and different "manifests" are just numbers. We support web extensions APIs regardless of how Google decided to call them or change them. Manifest change impacts mostly Chromium clones, and Orion will support both "manifest v2" and manifest v3" extensions in the future. -- > Will Orion for iOS also support web extensions? > Yes, we have preliminary support for some web extensions on iOS. > Wait, are you sure? No browser on iOS can use Chrome/Firefox extensions! > Orion makes it possible! We ported hundreds of web extension APIs to run on top of WebKit, which also runs on iOS. -- See also https://help.kagi.com/orion/privacy-and-security/ad-tracking-blocking.html https://help.kagi.com/orion/privacy-and-security/ad-tracking...
  - mgiampapa 3y ago
    Thanks, not having an iOS device or Mac I didn't check that far into their site. I'm not willing to invest into that ecosystem until Apple allows some freedom.
latchkey 3y ago
I'd love to see a browser natively and deeply integrate a 3rd party password manager like bitwarden or 1password, instead of just supporting Keychain.
- crabmusket 3y ago
  Pedantry: https://www.vocabulary.com/articles/pardon-the-expression/toe-the-line-vs-tow-the-line/ https://www.vocabulary.com/articles/pardon-the-expression/to...
  - latchkey 3y ago
    Interesting! My thought was more that it was just dragging some heavy line kind of keeping things straight and boring. I'll correct.
    - crabmusket 3y ago
      I think that your usage was actually correct- if I understand correctly, choosing to use Mac's native keychain is kind of "going along with" what Apple prefers- is that the sense of what you were saying? If so then you could definitely say apps "toe the line" when they do this. It was just the spelling I was pedant-ing about!
- ishitatsuyuki 3y ago
  macOS has native password autofill which opens the Keychain experience to 3rd party password managers. Unfortunately browser support is limited to Safari (even though the API itself is open), while Strongbox [1] seems to be the only option on password manager side. Maybe this will improve with the adoption of passkeys, where browsers are actually trying to integrate with the system passkeys API (a neighbor to autofill). [1]: https://strongboxsafe.com/updates/macos-big-sur-autofill/ https://strongboxsafe.com/updates/macos-big-sur-autofill/
  - latchkey 3y ago
    How does that integrate with bitwarden passkeys though? https://bitwarden.com/passwordless-passkeys/ https://bitwarden.com/passwordless-passkeys/
tticvs 3y ago
I've been using this as a daily driver on iOS for about a month now and it's been great. A few random teething issues but no crashes or real bugs. Supports extensions well.
TobyTheDog123 3y ago
EDIT: Nevermind, I somehow totally missed the "beta" plastered all over the place. I just gave Orion a try because of this HackerNews post --- what a buggy mess. I've already seen three crashes using it, mostly by bookmarking things or deleting old bookmarks. I'm very grateful that there are good players entering the space (from what I hear Kagi is amazing), but Orion just is not ready to be a daily driver.
- loehnsberg 3y ago
  Depends on what platform you use - iOS is quite buggy whereas I have close to zero issues on Mac. Turn on compatability mode (left button next to address bar) if a site does not work properly which turns of ad blocker etc.
pockmockchock 3y ago
Open Source would be MUCH better, but I'm seeing you're working on it, will wait till then I guess.
- prmoustache 3y ago
  I never understood the delays before open sourcing a product. Unless they are using third party proprietary code, what do they have to work on?
  - riddley 3y ago
    I would guess security passes that they should be doing anyway. If they open source and there are enough sec issues it might kill good will.
  - kuchenbecker 3y ago
    Anything proprietary or specific to Kagi needs to be sanitized / made a Plugin. E.g. an error message might say "please contact support at X." It's non-trivial to make all errors generic and pluggable. It's a lot of work to keep the business separate from the OSS part.
- carlosjobim 3y ago
  Wait for what?
  - wartijn_ 3y ago
    Wait for the browser to become open source I assume, which is supposed to happen sometime in the future. > Is Orion open-source? > We’re working on it! We’ve begun with some of our components and intend to open more in the future. https://kagi.com/orion/faq.html#oss https://kagi.com/orion/faq.html#oss
    - carlosjobim 3y ago
      > Wait for the browser to become open source I assume Yes, but what then?
JumpCrisscross 3y ago
Is there an argument to be made for a lighter browser such as this being more secure than Safari or Firefox on macOS?
- dharmab 3y ago
  One neat feature is that it has native ad and tracking blockers, which can be more powerful than ad-blocking extensions.
- tholdem 3y ago
  Not sure what you mean with "lighter", but the reason some browsers feel heavier is the security features that introduce a performance penalty or take up more resources, like jitless mode and process isolation for example. Firefox is not a secure web browser.
  - saagarjha 3y ago
    Firefox supports process isolation. Why do you not think it’s secure?
- hackideiomat 3y ago
  No. This is done by a company without a real security team. Compare that to Google, with one of the best security teams in the world.
  - syndicatedjelly 3y ago
    And as we all know, Google's security record is spotless.
    - hackideiomat 3y ago
      They are still one of the very best
- saagarjha 3y ago
  It’s WebKit-based, so it’s not really particularly lighter.
damm 3y ago
I would try it if they supported Linux.
- mhsdef 3y ago
  Under way: https://orionfeedback.org/d/6363-orion-for-linux https://orionfeedback.org/d/6363-orion-for-linux
panzerboiler 3y ago
I use it on an old macbook-pro-2012 (stuck on Catalina and on an old version of Safari). Thank you Kagi for providing a build with a recent version of WebKit. On the iPad I use it just for youtube, sometimes. It is still pretty rough around the edges compared to current Safari.
mastazi 3y ago
At this time, this is not for me unfortunately as I use 4 different OSes (Mac/Linux/iOS/Windows) but looking forward to checking it out again down the line.
pt_PT_guy 3y ago
yet another browser. no, thank you. even worse that it is based in blink/chromium. I would rather prefer they to lower their price than investing in this.
- pt_PT_guy 3y ago
  from yesterday story: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38429370 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38429370
- freediver 3y ago
  It is WebKit based.
- syndicatedjelly 3y ago
  $10 a month is too much?
airtonix 3y ago
[dead]
infecto 3y ago
I am hopeful for its development but it’s not a daily driver for me. Too many bugs, not a large enough team to support it. When I have looked at the support forum the developer is sometimes a little hostile about bugs/issues, enough so that I don’t care to report my own issues. This is a subjective statement your experience may differ.
- pantulis 3y ago
  For me the highest stopper is that it does not really work with Google Meet and it is not clear if it is a Webkit bug or not. Apart from that, I could probably use it as a daily driver.
  - endofreach 3y ago
    > that it does not really work with Google Meet It does sound like a feature, not a bug though...
    - loloquwowndueo 3y ago
      This. Meet works better with Chrome, so I used to have chrome for Meet only, and Firefox for everything else.
      - cypressious 3y ago
        It has become better in the last year or so. I used to have the same setup but currently Meet on FF works without issues for me.
        pantulis 3y ago
        Yes, it's better, but you cannot share a browser tab, only a window or the full desktop. Edit to add that the suggestion of using Orion for everyday browsing and FF or Chrome/EDge for Google Meet is totally reasonable, but somehow I find quite a lot of friction doing that.
      - 3y ago
hubraumhugo 3y ago
I'm impressed by all the work the Kagi team is getting done. I wonder how they split their focus between the two major challenges of building a new search engine and a new browser with the same small team.
__alexs 3y ago
As a paying Kagi user, please don't waste my money on this when Firefox already exists.
- ploum 3y ago
  I’m also a paying user (and a fan) of Kagi. I’m still confused by the strategy. If you are not Google and trying to have an hegemony on the web, there’s no obvious link between a browser and a search engine. I don’t see the point from a business perspective. It sends a strange signal to users "Hey, by the way, we are reinventing the wheel and making also a browser that works only on some operating systems". It’s a bit like going for groceries and then your merchant told you all the time "By the way, I’m selling this car prototype. It makes sense! You have to take your car anyway to comes shopping for groceries so why not buying the one from us?". But I’m a cyclist…
  - Closi 3y ago
    100%! There is more than enough to work on in the search engine space without getting distracted by other red oceans. Is it just that the search engine doesn't make enough space or they are finding it isn't sticky enough, so need to add more services to justify the price? (e.g. email...)
  - Ayesh 3y ago
    > going for groceries... I really this analogy. It feels weird especially when Google and Brave both have their own browser and ad programs, so it's in Kagi's favor to stay as far as possible from inventing their own browser.
  - freediver 3y ago
    Comment above address a part of the question https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38475154 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38475154 Second part of the answer to your question is that you can not humanize the web (our stated mission) with just Search. The window to the web is the browser. It is the most important software we have on our computers and yet we are as a civilization somehow Ok with the fact that most mainstream browsers through which we inform and educate are directly or indirectly in the service of advertising companies (!). If that is not dystopia, I am not sure what is. And that is what we are up against, even if the odds are against us. Orion is the first browser in 20 years that you can pay for and own. Owning your browser is a thing again thanks to Orion! It is also a great customer acqusition channel for Kagi, as we do not do advertising and many Kagi members told us this is how they found about the Search product. Yes it is hard. Yes Orion only exists on Mac, because you have to start somewhere and we are a small team. But we will get there.
gnrlst 3y ago
Orion has been a godsend on iOS where it's impossible to install uBlock Origin otherwise. Thanks Kagi team!
dorian-graph 3y ago
I've used it as my primary browser for months! Highly recommend it. The team behind it are quite active on their feedback forum.
mr_machine 3y ago
Currently, I stan Firefox, but only because all other alternatives compromise my privacy and security so egregiously. Mozilla has been messing around for years and in many ways, some merely dumb while others actively diminish the benefits of Firefox over others. I don't think a privacy conscious alternative browser is in any way a waste - it's exciting! But I'd require both fullsome Linux support and an open source approach to even consider it.
spicycode 3y ago
I've had great luck with this browser so far, the only thing stopping it from being a daily driver is passkey support.
mornanding 3y ago
This is so cool. Finally all my favorite extensions/addons on the iPad. Feels like breaking out from jail. Thank you, developers!
donatj 3y ago
I am genuinely curious why there is a different build for every release of macOS?
- Ayesh 3y ago
  I'm not using macOS or this browser, but my guess, seeing how the website mentions it's native app, it probably has to do with ibtegrations with certain features available in each macOS version. Live text, sharing options, etc.
- freediver 3y ago
  We ship optimized version of WebKit for each macOS.
whalesalad 3y ago
This is interesting... I used to daily drive Safari but the kagi extension somehow bricked the entire Safari. I've tried all the tricks to clear out ~/Library folders but it is still broken. Back on Firefox now... but this could be worth a spin.
tambourine_man 3y ago
Funny that it uses Hacker News as its example rendering page. We must really be target group. It's also not a particularly hard to render page or one that tracks you.
elromulous 3y ago
I'm still waiting for Windows / Linux / Android support.
runamuck 3y ago
I would love to see the Value Prop of this vs. Brave. (NOTE: I pay for a Kagi Unlimited Subscription).
- mhsdef 3y ago
  Browser diversification. We're already in Chromelandia. We'd be near 100% if it wasn't for Safari mobile.
- mhsdef 3y ago
  Better customer alignment. To be fair, Brave seems to have genuinely tried, but, seems to be failing to reach sustainablility judging by their various pivots. They've tried to walk the line of leaning toward the user while middlemanning revenue ideas to said user. BAT and crypto, VPN, messaging sales, now search+ads. The market seems to be saying no thanks from what I can see from the outside. Orion, in straight up exchange for cash via donation and Kagi subsidization, offers to be entirely the user's agent.
flixing 3y ago
quite shitty browser to be honest.
the_gipsy 3y ago
Gets stuck on major websites. The extension support sounds extremely fishy: I could install uBlock Origin, but either they are violating the Apple AppStore rules, or the extensions aren't actually working (fake API, not really implemented).
- carlosjobim 3y ago
  Why do you lie? A lot of the extensions are working perfectly.
  - the_gipsy 3y ago
    You cannot ship a JavaScript runtime in the AppStore, so you cannot ship a browser that is not a safari WebView, so extensions like uBlock Origin cannot possibly run on an iOS browser. So which is it? They cannot get away with violating the appstore terms. It must be a shim API that marks the extension as installed to some degree.
bigpapikite 3y ago
I tried daily driving Orion for a couple weeks and there's a lot of great work being done, but I had some pain points. The extension functionality on iPadOS is really jank in a way I don't quite know how to explain. Like sometimes I come back to Orion and the extensions are signed out of or sometimes they straight up just don't work. I've also had some bad one off experiences of random sites taking a long time to load or running into issues. Orion plays really well with Safari though, which is great, so I run a very strange combo of Orion on my iPhone, Safari on my iPad, and Arc on my Mac. There's enough additions on top of Safari for me to prefer Orion over it (if it works well), but not enough for me to prefer it over Arc on my Mac. Arc's QOL features and out the box UI design just put it way above any browser I've used.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
aiscapehumanity 3y ago
Not cross-platform? Ngmi

271 points by cottonseed 3y ago

droopyEyelids 3y ago

Kagi is in the “this is fucking awesome” part of a tech company lifecycle.

EA-3167 3y ago
It really is. I switched to them a while ago and I've used Google maybe 4-5 times since, in over a year. Never looked back.
biglyburrito 3y ago
Yup. Search results are as good in Kagi as Google used to be 10yrs ago, before it became an SEO-tuned, malware-infested garbage pile. Worth $5/month.
- Exoristos 3y ago
  I would pay $1 or $2 a month, not $5.
  - ploum 3y ago
    If the switched to 2$ a month, they might double their customer base. And still earn less money (not even counting the costs). So, sadly, it is sometimes smart to be expensive.
  - carlosjobim 3y ago
    People say this, but it's rarely true. Anybody running a subscription service quickly learns that it's not worth bothering with customers who won't pay at least $5 per month. They're the most trouble for the least income.
- ipaddr 3y ago
  I highly disagree, google 10 year ago had nsfw content, it had a great long tail. I signed up and found it to have little depth and it skips most of the web. It does a great job of filtering out spam but it equally good at filtering out everything else. Tech related it's great. For shopping not so great. For local not so great. For science, education it's pretty decent. For anything like torrents or coupon sites or sites in other languages it's not the best.

shepherdjerred 3y ago

Just waiting for passkey support before I switch! https://orionfeedback.org/d/3025-support-passkeys/42 https://orionfeedback.org/d/3025-support-passkeys/42

yahmez 3y ago

If I load reddit.com on the iOS Orion browser the page is completely unresponsive. Anyone else experience this? Not a great first impression sadly.

nicce 3y ago
Yes. But maybe Reddit is not the best benchmarck due to their user-hostile behaviour anyway (well, maybe it is "best" because of this). The only purpose of mobile website is to make the user to download their app.
chronicsonic 3y ago
I use Safari for Reddit because of the SinkIt extension: https://apps.apple.com/gb/app/sink-it-for-reddit/id6449873635 https://apps.apple.com/gb/app/sink-it-for-reddit/id644987363...
- navanchauhan 3y ago
  I am running apollo with a patch to use my own API key. I am not sure what I am going to do when this eventually breaks
freediver 3y ago
This is due to built in content blockers. You can disable them on reddit and it will load fine.

mm263 3y ago

I've been using it for a while as my main browser and it suffers from all of the usual issues that early development stage browsers have: bugs, memory leaks. The bugs are nasty as well, I'm sometimes forced to switch back to Firefox: one example is once there was a build that crashed my browser when I opened a new tab in tree view. The extension support is in progress as well. UBlock Origin and BitWarden work, but YNAB Toolkit doesn't work too well. Overall if you are okay with alpha/beta testing a browser it's fine, but if not, stick with Firefox.

ochronus 3y ago
I had the same experience. Even if uBlock Origin kind of works, somehow it doesn't block the same number of ads as it does with other browsers, I wonder why. Same uBlock Origin version, same filters enabled, fewer ads blocked on Orion. I used this site for example to test: https://d3ward.github.io/toolz/adblock.html https://d3ward.github.io/toolz/adblock.html - scores 65% on orion and 99% on other browsers
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  I'm getting 99% on Orion with their content blockers and uBlock Origin (default lists only).
  - jostyee 3y ago
    The official documentation doesn't recommend this: https://help.kagi.com/orion/browser-extensions/ublock-origin.html https://help.kagi.com/orion/browser-extensions/ublock-origin... > For power users who want that last 10% with uBlock, we recommend disabling Orion's content blocker globally. Running both Orion blocking and uBlock may cause interference with each other.
- Squarex 3y ago
  I get 100% with orion, ublock origin and nextdns combo. It's the only browser along with Firefox where I am able to get 100%.
- 3y ago

mantra2 3y ago

How is it actually working now? The last time I tried it I felt it was pretty buggy -- but in an ideal world I'd love to switch.

keyle 3y ago
It's essentially Safari with ad blocking built in. Certain website I notice crap out, but it's pretty rare. I made the switch approx 6 months ago.
d1sxeyes 3y ago
Some bugs still. Mostly if I run into a bug, and I try to open the same site in Safari, I experience the same bug. Occasionally it'll do something stupid and hang completely, but I'd say maybe that happens once or twice a week, not enough to stop me using it (and I live in it most of the day).
- mantra2 3y ago
  Interesting. I’m thinking of giving it another shot. In theory it sounds like the perfect browser for me. The only extension I use is uBlock and BitWarden so I don’t really care much for widespread support of extensions and it sounds like that’s the last really buggy part.

nicce 3y ago

Looks of the browser are pretty great and it has built-in most the features you would need. Some extensions do not work. E.g. BitWarden autofill does not work either as Chrome or Firefox extension. Some websites get laggy. Sometimes ChatGPT page lags so much that is unusable. Also if you browse GitHub, some views will lag very much, and make it unusable. Maybe some day it will be competitive also in compatibility. But since it is MacOS only, I always will need to use many browsers...

izzydata 3y ago

Are there any plans for Windows and Android releases?

jijji 3y ago
Forgot about Linux
- SushiHippie 3y ago
  They are currently working on a linux beta/alpha version.
wartijn_ 3y ago
From their docs: “One day, we hope everyone will say Orion is the best browser for all Apple devices.” So I wouldn’t hold my breath.
benrutter 3y ago
From the website: > 1. Orion is currently available for Apple macOS, iPadOS and iOS. We are planning support for other platforms in the future. Zilch on timelines though, so don't know how much of a priority it is for them?

charcircuit 3y ago

Developing a complex product like a browser without telemetry will be hard. Especially if they are trying to commit to objectives like using minimal battery or memory. There are many many different websites so its hard to predict what your users are using the browser for.

syndicatedjelly 3y ago
I'm glad someone is trying to doing something hard that will benefit people. We need more companies that want to do the hard thing, not the easy profitable thing.
- charcircuit 3y ago
  Telemetry would allow them to make their product better for more people and know where to invest to benefit their users more. In this case proitability is proxy for how much value people get from the proxy. The thought that something is bad because it is profitable is misguided.
  - ipaddr 3y ago
    Is all telemetry good in your eyes? Telemetry is a cheaper solution to hiring quality assurance. Many will feel sharing their usage details to increase profits is acceptance and others might feel this free product isn't so free anymore.
    - charcircuit 3y ago
      >Is all telemetry good in your eyes? No, collecting information on how many times someone types the sequence "abcd" is a waste of resources. Figuring out what telemetry will be useful and understanding the privacy implications is important. >Telemetry is a cheaper solution to hiring quality assurance. These are not comparable. Telemetry is about understanding how the product is operating. QA is about testing the product.
  - justinclift 3y ago

captn3m0 3y ago

Is it ever gonna be possible to support Safari Extensions and Time reporting/blocks via iOS? I can set time limit for HN if i use an app, or if I use Safari. Switching to Firefox (with the same WebKit backend) means no screen time limits apply.

vunderba 3y ago

As far as I know, Orion is the only iOS compatible browser that lets you load extensions from the Chrome store and possibly Firefox as well although I'm not sure about that.

chronicsonic 3y ago
Yes it also supports Firefox extensions. Bypass Paywall Clean is a great one.
- vsnf 3y ago
  By what mechanism is it possible for this to be true when Firefox doesn't even support Firefox extensions?
  - freediver 3y ago
    Orion has a port of the web extensions API (used by Chrome and Firefox extensions) on top of WebKit.
    - vsnf 3y ago
      That's super interesting. I wonder why Mozilla didn't bother to do this for their own browser.
      - getcrunk 3y ago
        Mozilla’s priorities are messed up instead of doubling down on browser they are getting into a lot of half assed side projects.
      - saagarjha 3y ago
        It’s quite difficult to do and the solution is necessarily limited by the inability to modify WebKit.
  - 4ggr0 3y ago
    Is this a joke I'm not getting? Currently using FF on every device I use, with 3+ extensions.

scblock 3y ago

I use it as my daily driver, highly recommended.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

vsgherzi 3y ago

For me it's been more performant than safari esp on google based sites (google meet)

mgiampapa 3y ago

Since it supports iOS and iPadOS, does it use a fork of WebKit, or is it embedded Safari? What manifest API is it going to support going forward?

smcleod 3y ago
https://kagi.com/orion/faq.html https://kagi.com/orion/faq.html > How will manifest v2 extensions work with Orion after manifest v3 roll out in Chrome? > Same as before! Orion has its own implementation of the entire web extensions API and different "manifests" are just numbers. We support web extensions APIs regardless of how Google decided to call them or change them. Manifest change impacts mostly Chromium clones, and Orion will support both "manifest v2" and manifest v3" extensions in the future. -- > Will Orion for iOS also support web extensions? > Yes, we have preliminary support for some web extensions on iOS. > Wait, are you sure? No browser on iOS can use Chrome/Firefox extensions! > Orion makes it possible! We ported hundreds of web extension APIs to run on top of WebKit, which also runs on iOS. -- See also https://help.kagi.com/orion/privacy-and-security/ad-tracking-blocking.html https://help.kagi.com/orion/privacy-and-security/ad-tracking...
- mgiampapa 3y ago
  Thanks, not having an iOS device or Mac I didn't check that far into their site. I'm not willing to invest into that ecosystem until Apple allows some freedom.

latchkey 3y ago

I'd love to see a browser natively and deeply integrate a 3rd party password manager like bitwarden or 1password, instead of just supporting Keychain.

crabmusket 3y ago
Pedantry: https://www.vocabulary.com/articles/pardon-the-expression/toe-the-line-vs-tow-the-line/ https://www.vocabulary.com/articles/pardon-the-expression/to...
- latchkey 3y ago
  Interesting! My thought was more that it was just dragging some heavy line kind of keeping things straight and boring. I'll correct.
  - crabmusket 3y ago
    I think that your usage was actually correct- if I understand correctly, choosing to use Mac's native keychain is kind of "going along with" what Apple prefers- is that the sense of what you were saying? If so then you could definitely say apps "toe the line" when they do this. It was just the spelling I was pedant-ing about!
ishitatsuyuki 3y ago
macOS has native password autofill which opens the Keychain experience to 3rd party password managers. Unfortunately browser support is limited to Safari (even though the API itself is open), while Strongbox [1] seems to be the only option on password manager side. Maybe this will improve with the adoption of passkeys, where browsers are actually trying to integrate with the system passkeys API (a neighbor to autofill). [1]: https://strongboxsafe.com/updates/macos-big-sur-autofill/ https://strongboxsafe.com/updates/macos-big-sur-autofill/
- latchkey 3y ago
  How does that integrate with bitwarden passkeys though? https://bitwarden.com/passwordless-passkeys/ https://bitwarden.com/passwordless-passkeys/

tticvs 3y ago

I've been using this as a daily driver on iOS for about a month now and it's been great. A few random teething issues but no crashes or real bugs. Supports extensions well.

TobyTheDog123 3y ago

EDIT: Nevermind, I somehow totally missed the "beta" plastered all over the place. I just gave Orion a try because of this HackerNews post --- what a buggy mess. I've already seen three crashes using it, mostly by bookmarking things or deleting old bookmarks. I'm very grateful that there are good players entering the space (from what I hear Kagi is amazing), but Orion just is not ready to be a daily driver.

loehnsberg 3y ago
Depends on what platform you use - iOS is quite buggy whereas I have close to zero issues on Mac. Turn on compatability mode (left button next to address bar) if a site does not work properly which turns of ad blocker etc.

pockmockchock 3y ago

Open Source would be MUCH better, but I'm seeing you're working on it, will wait till then I guess.

prmoustache 3y ago
I never understood the delays before open sourcing a product. Unless they are using third party proprietary code, what do they have to work on?
- riddley 3y ago
  I would guess security passes that they should be doing anyway. If they open source and there are enough sec issues it might kill good will.
- kuchenbecker 3y ago
  Anything proprietary or specific to Kagi needs to be sanitized / made a Plugin. E.g. an error message might say "please contact support at X." It's non-trivial to make all errors generic and pluggable. It's a lot of work to keep the business separate from the OSS part.
carlosjobim 3y ago
Wait for what?
- wartijn_ 3y ago
  Wait for the browser to become open source I assume, which is supposed to happen sometime in the future. > Is Orion open-source? > We’re working on it! We’ve begun with some of our components and intend to open more in the future. https://kagi.com/orion/faq.html#oss https://kagi.com/orion/faq.html#oss
  - carlosjobim 3y ago
    > Wait for the browser to become open source I assume Yes, but what then?

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

Is there an argument to be made for a lighter browser such as this being more secure than Safari or Firefox on macOS?

dharmab 3y ago
One neat feature is that it has native ad and tracking blockers, which can be more powerful than ad-blocking extensions.
tholdem 3y ago
Not sure what you mean with "lighter", but the reason some browsers feel heavier is the security features that introduce a performance penalty or take up more resources, like jitless mode and process isolation for example. Firefox is not a secure web browser.
- saagarjha 3y ago
  Firefox supports process isolation. Why do you not think it’s secure?
hackideiomat 3y ago
No. This is done by a company without a real security team. Compare that to Google, with one of the best security teams in the world.
- syndicatedjelly 3y ago
  And as we all know, Google's security record is spotless.
  - hackideiomat 3y ago
    They are still one of the very best
saagarjha 3y ago
It’s WebKit-based, so it’s not really particularly lighter.

damm 3y ago

I would try it if they supported Linux.

mhsdef 3y ago
Under way: https://orionfeedback.org/d/6363-orion-for-linux https://orionfeedback.org/d/6363-orion-for-linux

panzerboiler 3y ago

I use it on an old macbook-pro-2012 (stuck on Catalina and on an old version of Safari). Thank you Kagi for providing a build with a recent version of WebKit. On the iPad I use it just for youtube, sometimes. It is still pretty rough around the edges compared to current Safari.

mastazi 3y ago

At this time, this is not for me unfortunately as I use 4 different OSes (Mac/Linux/iOS/Windows) but looking forward to checking it out again down the line.

pt_PT_guy 3y ago

yet another browser. no, thank you. even worse that it is based in blink/chromium. I would rather prefer they to lower their price than investing in this.

pt_PT_guy 3y ago
from yesterday story: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38429370 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38429370
freediver 3y ago
It is WebKit based.
syndicatedjelly 3y ago
$10 a month is too much?

airtonix 3y ago

[dead]

infecto 3y ago

I am hopeful for its development but it’s not a daily driver for me. Too many bugs, not a large enough team to support it. When I have looked at the support forum the developer is sometimes a little hostile about bugs/issues, enough so that I don’t care to report my own issues. This is a subjective statement your experience may differ.

pantulis 3y ago
For me the highest stopper is that it does not really work with Google Meet and it is not clear if it is a Webkit bug or not. Apart from that, I could probably use it as a daily driver.
- endofreach 3y ago
  > that it does not really work with Google Meet It does sound like a feature, not a bug though...
  - loloquwowndueo 3y ago
    This. Meet works better with Chrome, so I used to have chrome for Meet only, and Firefox for everything else.
    - cypressious 3y ago
      It has become better in the last year or so. I used to have the same setup but currently Meet on FF works without issues for me.
      - pantulis 3y ago
        Yes, it's better, but you cannot share a browser tab, only a window or the full desktop. Edit to add that the suggestion of using Orion for everyday browsing and FF or Chrome/EDge for Google Meet is totally reasonable, but somehow I find quite a lot of friction doing that.
    - 3y ago

hubraumhugo 3y ago

I'm impressed by all the work the Kagi team is getting done. I wonder how they split their focus between the two major challenges of building a new search engine and a new browser with the same small team.

__alexs 3y ago

As a paying Kagi user, please don't waste my money on this when Firefox already exists.

ploum 3y ago
I’m also a paying user (and a fan) of Kagi. I’m still confused by the strategy. If you are not Google and trying to have an hegemony on the web, there’s no obvious link between a browser and a search engine. I don’t see the point from a business perspective. It sends a strange signal to users "Hey, by the way, we are reinventing the wheel and making also a browser that works only on some operating systems". It’s a bit like going for groceries and then your merchant told you all the time "By the way, I’m selling this car prototype. It makes sense! You have to take your car anyway to comes shopping for groceries so why not buying the one from us?". But I’m a cyclist…
- Closi 3y ago
  100%! There is more than enough to work on in the search engine space without getting distracted by other red oceans. Is it just that the search engine doesn't make enough space or they are finding it isn't sticky enough, so need to add more services to justify the price? (e.g. email...)
- Ayesh 3y ago
  > going for groceries... I really this analogy. It feels weird especially when Google and Brave both have their own browser and ad programs, so it's in Kagi's favor to stay as far as possible from inventing their own browser.
- freediver 3y ago
  Comment above address a part of the question https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38475154 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38475154 Second part of the answer to your question is that you can not humanize the web (our stated mission) with just Search. The window to the web is the browser. It is the most important software we have on our computers and yet we are as a civilization somehow Ok with the fact that most mainstream browsers through which we inform and educate are directly or indirectly in the service of advertising companies (!). If that is not dystopia, I am not sure what is. And that is what we are up against, even if the odds are against us. Orion is the first browser in 20 years that you can pay for and own. Owning your browser is a thing again thanks to Orion! It is also a great customer acqusition channel for Kagi, as we do not do advertising and many Kagi members told us this is how they found about the Search product. Yes it is hard. Yes Orion only exists on Mac, because you have to start somewhere and we are a small team. But we will get there.

gnrlst 3y ago

Orion has been a godsend on iOS where it's impossible to install uBlock Origin otherwise. Thanks Kagi team!

dorian-graph 3y ago

I've used it as my primary browser for months! Highly recommend it. The team behind it are quite active on their feedback forum.

mr_machine 3y ago

Currently, I stan Firefox, but only because all other alternatives compromise my privacy and security so egregiously. Mozilla has been messing around for years and in many ways, some merely dumb while others actively diminish the benefits of Firefox over others. I don't think a privacy conscious alternative browser is in any way a waste - it's exciting! But I'd require both fullsome Linux support and an open source approach to even consider it.

spicycode 3y ago

I've had great luck with this browser so far, the only thing stopping it from being a daily driver is passkey support.

mornanding 3y ago

This is so cool. Finally all my favorite extensions/addons on the iPad. Feels like breaking out from jail. Thank you, developers!

donatj 3y ago

I am genuinely curious why there is a different build for every release of macOS?

Ayesh 3y ago
I'm not using macOS or this browser, but my guess, seeing how the website mentions it's native app, it probably has to do with ibtegrations with certain features available in each macOS version. Live text, sharing options, etc.
freediver 3y ago
We ship optimized version of WebKit for each macOS.

whalesalad 3y ago

This is interesting... I used to daily drive Safari but the kagi extension somehow bricked the entire Safari. I've tried all the tricks to clear out ~/Library folders but it is still broken. Back on Firefox now... but this could be worth a spin.

tambourine_man 3y ago

Funny that it uses Hacker News as its example rendering page. We must really be target group. It's also not a particularly hard to render page or one that tracks you.

elromulous 3y ago

I'm still waiting for Windows / Linux / Android support.

runamuck 3y ago

I would love to see the Value Prop of this vs. Brave. (NOTE: I pay for a Kagi Unlimited Subscription).

mhsdef 3y ago
Browser diversification. We're already in Chromelandia. We'd be near 100% if it wasn't for Safari mobile.
mhsdef 3y ago
Better customer alignment. To be fair, Brave seems to have genuinely tried, but, seems to be failing to reach sustainablility judging by their various pivots. They've tried to walk the line of leaning toward the user while middlemanning revenue ideas to said user. BAT and crypto, VPN, messaging sales, now search+ads. The market seems to be saying no thanks from what I can see from the outside. Orion, in straight up exchange for cash via donation and Kagi subsidization, offers to be entirely the user's agent.

flixing 3y ago

quite shitty browser to be honest.

the_gipsy 3y ago

Gets stuck on major websites. The extension support sounds extremely fishy: I could install uBlock Origin, but either they are violating the Apple AppStore rules, or the extensions aren't actually working (fake API, not really implemented).

carlosjobim 3y ago
Why do you lie? A lot of the extensions are working perfectly.
- the_gipsy 3y ago
  You cannot ship a JavaScript runtime in the AppStore, so you cannot ship a browser that is not a safari WebView, so extensions like uBlock Origin cannot possibly run on an iOS browser. So which is it? They cannot get away with violating the appstore terms. It must be a shim API that marks the extension as installed to some degree.

bigpapikite 3y ago

I tried daily driving Orion for a couple weeks and there's a lot of great work being done, but I had some pain points. The extension functionality on iPadOS is really jank in a way I don't quite know how to explain. Like sometimes I come back to Orion and the extensions are signed out of or sometimes they straight up just don't work. I've also had some bad one off experiences of random sites taking a long time to load or running into issues. Orion plays really well with Safari though, which is great, so I run a very strange combo of Orion on my iPhone, Safari on my iPad, and Arc on my Mac. There's enough additions on top of Safari for me to prefer Orion over it (if it works well), but not enough for me to prefer it over Arc on my Mac. Arc's QOL features and out the box UI design just put it way above any browser I've used.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

aiscapehumanity 3y ago

Not cross-platform? Ngmi