8 ms·

A key excerpt, in my opinion. “There is a growing body of evidence about the detrimental health effects of consuming too much red meat and dairy, so this study

A key excerpt, in my opinion. “There is a growing body of evidence about the detrimental health effects of consuming too much red meat and dairy, so this study shouldn’t be taken as an excuse to eat more cheeseburgers and pizza; rather, it indicates that nutrient supplements such as TVA could be used to promote T cell activity.” I’m also curious about this being a trans fat. I’ve heard public health campaigning that trans fats are unhealthy, but this research highlights one as a potential cancer therapy. It is apparently another case of un-nuanced popular ideas about health and nutrition not being the whole truth.

RandomWorker 3y ago
Really the problem is with the headline, which is probably all most people will see and read. The title should probably say TVA improves cancer fighting immune system. Is dairy and beef the only source ? My sense is no. https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/trans-Vaccenic-acid https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/trans-Vaccenic-aci... Reviewing pubmed it seems to be a product from ecoli.
bluGill 3y ago
Are all trans fats equal? We are more and more learning that broad categories are not useful as some subsets are better/worse than others.
- some_furry 3y ago
  It could also be a category error: Vegetable seed oils seem to correlate strongly with bad health outcomes. Meanwhile, other oils (e.g. olive oil) with similar levels of the same types of fatty acids have better outcomes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kGnfXXIKZM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kGnfXXIKZM Is it the type of fat, or the process through which it's extracted, that's most important? I don't know if the answer is as clear as we'd like it to be. Going back to the article: Isn't it possible that the trans fat in question is actually toxic like other trans fats, but in a way that's narrowly beneficial in this circumstance?
  - hombre_fatal 3y ago
    > Vegetable seed oils seem to correlate strongly with bad health outcomes. Based on what evidence? Here's a good roundup of our best evidence, and it shows that seed oils improve health outcomes: https://www.the-nutrivore.com/post/a-comprehensive-rebuttal-to-seed-oil-sophistry https://www.the-nutrivore.com/post/a-comprehensive-rebuttal-... Since you like Youtube videos, here's a good talk between Gil Carvalho and Simon Hill that also goes through the evidence: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ri4S7MLu3A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ri4S7MLu3A Another summary of the evidence on seed oils by Layne Norton: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2fSaFnt0FM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2fSaFnt0FM I skimmed your video and it's the same old low-carb narratives with very little evidence cited which should always be a red flag. People who can't point to our best metaanalyses or human health outcome research on something to back their point will generally spin narratives because it's all they have left to do.
    - cubefox 3y ago
      When vegetable/seed oils are turned into solid fats, like shortening or margarine, trans fats (in particular, partially hydrogenated oils) occur. They have only recently been restricted in the US, at least to some extent. They cause heart disease. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans_fat#Health_risks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans_fat#Health_risks > Partially hydrogenated vegetable oils were an increasingly significant part of the human diet for about 100 years, especially after 1950 as processed food rose in popularity.[66] The deleterious effects of trans fat consumption are scientifically accepted. > The most important health risk identified for trans fat consumption is an elevated risk of coronary artery disease (CAD).[72] A 1994 study estimated that over 30,000 cardiac deaths per year in the U.S. are attributable to the consumption of trans fats.[30] By 2006 upper estimates of 100,000 deaths were suggested.[73] A comprehensive review of studies of trans fats published in 2006 in the New England Journal of Medicine reports a strong and reliable connection between trans fat consumption and CAD, concluding that "On a per-calorie basis, trans fats appear to increase the risk of CAD more than any other macronutrient, conferring a substantially increased risk at low levels of consumption (1 to 3% of total energy intake)".[60]
- Modified3019 3y ago
  Broadly speaking, I’d say the evidence decently points to yes most trans polyunsaturated fats are probably harmful. But I definitely agree, that lumping various fatty acids, amino acids and carbohydrates into big groups hides their extreme individual complexity. One possible exception to the “trans fat bad” thing for example is that when I last looked into it several years ago, Conjugated Linoleic Acid (“CLA”) which can be either cis or trans were generally regarded as probably beneficial. Though frankly I’ve no idea how that would be. Regular linoleic acid itself is considered harmful (at least in the historically excessive amounts we are currently exposed to). It suppresses mammalian metabolism (being required by hibernators to induce the start of their winter torpor cycling), is very prone to oxidizing and generating free radicals and lipid peroxides which cause havoc in lipoproteins and blast holes in cardiovascular tissue, and even without all that it’s breakdown products tend to increase inflammation, though this can be paradoxically hidden by linoleic acid’s ability to suppress the immune system. But somehow when you conjugate three of the things together and get CLA, it behaves differently and can seemingly scavenge for free radicals.
  - nkozyra 3y ago
    Unless I'm misremembering a lot of the benefits of CLA did not prove out with subsequent studies and it always came with general health caveats alongside the potential benefits (primarily to visceral abdominal fat, IIRC).
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
mymacbook 3y ago
Maybe the problem with cheeseburgers is the bun and sugar more than the meat or cheese itself? I would imagine grass-fed (and finished) beef is better than ultra processed meat – especially if sugar ends up in the finished product!
spacephysics 3y ago
The problem with many red meat studies that show a negative effect, is typically the meat is eaten in the form of fast food cheeseburgers or in the case of dairy, pizza. Red meat alone does not cause heart disease. It’s based off the fraudulent study regarding saturated fat and heart disease, which the sugar industry paid for. More likely, is the breads used in SAD (which have very high amounts of sugar vs other countries’ bread) has a much heavier hand in heart disease. Further, the science about cholesterol and what markers mean what amount of heart disease risk isn’t even a clear science. LSL vs HDL vs triglycerides. It seems we know triglycerides elevated is not good, but it’s not clear on LDL and HDL alone (there’s also the size of the particle that matters in determining cardiovascular risk) Show me a study of a population who eats steaks, vegetables, avoids processed foods, and is athletic and I’ll show you a healthy heart. https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/13/well/eat/how-the-sugar-industry-shifted-blame-to-fat.html#:~:text=The%20sugar%20industry%20paid%20scientists,newly%20released%20historical%20documents%20show https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/13/well/eat/how-the-sugar-in.... https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/09/13/493739074/50-years-ago-sugar-industry-quietly-paid-scientists-to-point-blame-at-fat https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/09/13/493739074... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9794145/#:~:text=The%20PURE%20investigators%20found%20that,risk%20of%20stroke%20%5B34%5D https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9794145/#:~:tex....
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- virtuallynathan 3y ago
  There's currently a study underway that took 100 people who have been on a low carb high fat diet for, on average, over 4 years. These people had a large increase in LDL when switching to this diet. All participants had CT Angiograms, CAC scans, and other tests at T-0 and after 1 year. Some in the study had LDL levels seen in Homozygous Familial Hypercholesterolemia (>350mg/dL). A matched control study with this population and the general population is also underway, with the initial results being presented on Dec 8th at the WCIRDCD Conference. If LDL is independently causal of atheroscelosis/CHD, it should be seen in this population.
- bsder 3y ago
caesil 3y ago
"I’ve heard public health campaigning that trans fats are unhealthy, but this research highlights one as a potential cancer therapy." Something can help fight cancer and also be terrible for heart health. The body is a collection of complex systems.
- belly_joe 3y ago
  Yeah my understanding is that the balance of evidence on moderate alcohol consumption works this way as well (though with cancer and heart health reversed).
  - aplusbi 3y ago
    It was my understanding that many of the studies on moderate alcohol consumption included people in the study who could not drink for medical reasons (or were former alcoholics) which skewed the results for the zero-alcohol groups. Studies on red wine included people whose only source of fruit was red wine, which similarly skewed the results.
- hanniabu 3y ago
  Studies say ray guns are great at fighting cancer, but terrile for heart health
Dalewyn 3y ago
The moral of all these tales is that the best diet is composed of a reasonable balance of varied foods that you like, not something that takes the meter to +/-11. Too much of anything is bad, as is too little.
tazjin 3y ago
Yes, eat less cheeseburgers and pizza, and more steak.

RandomWorker 3y ago

Really the problem is with the headline, which is probably all most people will see and read. The title should probably say TVA improves cancer fighting immune system. Is dairy and beef the only source ? My sense is no. https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/trans-Vaccenic-acid https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/trans-Vaccenic-aci... Reviewing pubmed it seems to be a product from ecoli.

bluGill 3y ago

Are all trans fats equal? We are more and more learning that broad categories are not useful as some subsets are better/worse than others.

some_furry 3y ago
It could also be a category error: Vegetable seed oils seem to correlate strongly with bad health outcomes. Meanwhile, other oils (e.g. olive oil) with similar levels of the same types of fatty acids have better outcomes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kGnfXXIKZM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kGnfXXIKZM Is it the type of fat, or the process through which it's extracted, that's most important? I don't know if the answer is as clear as we'd like it to be. Going back to the article: Isn't it possible that the trans fat in question is actually toxic like other trans fats, but in a way that's narrowly beneficial in this circumstance?
- hombre_fatal 3y ago
  > Vegetable seed oils seem to correlate strongly with bad health outcomes. Based on what evidence? Here's a good roundup of our best evidence, and it shows that seed oils improve health outcomes: https://www.the-nutrivore.com/post/a-comprehensive-rebuttal-to-seed-oil-sophistry https://www.the-nutrivore.com/post/a-comprehensive-rebuttal-... Since you like Youtube videos, here's a good talk between Gil Carvalho and Simon Hill that also goes through the evidence: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ri4S7MLu3A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ri4S7MLu3A Another summary of the evidence on seed oils by Layne Norton: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2fSaFnt0FM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2fSaFnt0FM I skimmed your video and it's the same old low-carb narratives with very little evidence cited which should always be a red flag. People who can't point to our best metaanalyses or human health outcome research on something to back their point will generally spin narratives because it's all they have left to do.
  - cubefox 3y ago
    When vegetable/seed oils are turned into solid fats, like shortening or margarine, trans fats (in particular, partially hydrogenated oils) occur. They have only recently been restricted in the US, at least to some extent. They cause heart disease. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans_fat#Health_risks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans_fat#Health_risks > Partially hydrogenated vegetable oils were an increasingly significant part of the human diet for about 100 years, especially after 1950 as processed food rose in popularity.[66] The deleterious effects of trans fat consumption are scientifically accepted. > The most important health risk identified for trans fat consumption is an elevated risk of coronary artery disease (CAD).[72] A 1994 study estimated that over 30,000 cardiac deaths per year in the U.S. are attributable to the consumption of trans fats.[30] By 2006 upper estimates of 100,000 deaths were suggested.[73] A comprehensive review of studies of trans fats published in 2006 in the New England Journal of Medicine reports a strong and reliable connection between trans fat consumption and CAD, concluding that "On a per-calorie basis, trans fats appear to increase the risk of CAD more than any other macronutrient, conferring a substantially increased risk at low levels of consumption (1 to 3% of total energy intake)".[60]
Modified3019 3y ago
Broadly speaking, I’d say the evidence decently points to yes most trans polyunsaturated fats are probably harmful. But I definitely agree, that lumping various fatty acids, amino acids and carbohydrates into big groups hides their extreme individual complexity. One possible exception to the “trans fat bad” thing for example is that when I last looked into it several years ago, Conjugated Linoleic Acid (“CLA”) which can be either cis or trans were generally regarded as probably beneficial. Though frankly I’ve no idea how that would be. Regular linoleic acid itself is considered harmful (at least in the historically excessive amounts we are currently exposed to). It suppresses mammalian metabolism (being required by hibernators to induce the start of their winter torpor cycling), is very prone to oxidizing and generating free radicals and lipid peroxides which cause havoc in lipoproteins and blast holes in cardiovascular tissue, and even without all that it’s breakdown products tend to increase inflammation, though this can be paradoxically hidden by linoleic acid’s ability to suppress the immune system. But somehow when you conjugate three of the things together and get CLA, it behaves differently and can seemingly scavenge for free radicals.
- nkozyra 3y ago
  Unless I'm misremembering a lot of the benefits of CLA did not prove out with subsequent studies and it always came with general health caveats alongside the potential benefits (primarily to visceral abdominal fat, IIRC).

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

mymacbook 3y ago

Maybe the problem with cheeseburgers is the bun and sugar more than the meat or cheese itself? I would imagine grass-fed (and finished) beef is better than ultra processed meat – especially if sugar ends up in the finished product!

spacephysics 3y ago

The problem with many red meat studies that show a negative effect, is typically the meat is eaten in the form of fast food cheeseburgers or in the case of dairy, pizza. Red meat alone does not cause heart disease. It’s based off the fraudulent study regarding saturated fat and heart disease, which the sugar industry paid for. More likely, is the breads used in SAD (which have very high amounts of sugar vs other countries’ bread) has a much heavier hand in heart disease. Further, the science about cholesterol and what markers mean what amount of heart disease risk isn’t even a clear science. LSL vs HDL vs triglycerides. It seems we know triglycerides elevated is not good, but it’s not clear on LDL and HDL alone (there’s also the size of the particle that matters in determining cardiovascular risk) Show me a study of a population who eats steaks, vegetables, avoids processed foods, and is athletic and I’ll show you a healthy heart. https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/13/well/eat/how-the-sugar-industry-shifted-blame-to-fat.html#:~:text=The%20sugar%20industry%20paid%20scientists,newly%20released%20historical%20documents%20show https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/13/well/eat/how-the-sugar-in.... https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/09/13/493739074/50-years-ago-sugar-industry-quietly-paid-scientists-to-point-blame-at-fat https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/09/13/493739074... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9794145/#:~:text=The%20PURE%20investigators%20found%20that,risk%20of%20stroke%20%5B34%5D https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9794145/#:~:tex....

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
virtuallynathan 3y ago
There's currently a study underway that took 100 people who have been on a low carb high fat diet for, on average, over 4 years. These people had a large increase in LDL when switching to this diet. All participants had CT Angiograms, CAC scans, and other tests at T-0 and after 1 year. Some in the study had LDL levels seen in Homozygous Familial Hypercholesterolemia (>350mg/dL). A matched control study with this population and the general population is also underway, with the initial results being presented on Dec 8th at the WCIRDCD Conference. If LDL is independently causal of atheroscelosis/CHD, it should be seen in this population.
bsder 3y ago

caesil 3y ago

"I’ve heard public health campaigning that trans fats are unhealthy, but this research highlights one as a potential cancer therapy." Something can help fight cancer and also be terrible for heart health. The body is a collection of complex systems.

belly_joe 3y ago
Yeah my understanding is that the balance of evidence on moderate alcohol consumption works this way as well (though with cancer and heart health reversed).
- aplusbi 3y ago
  It was my understanding that many of the studies on moderate alcohol consumption included people in the study who could not drink for medical reasons (or were former alcoholics) which skewed the results for the zero-alcohol groups. Studies on red wine included people whose only source of fruit was red wine, which similarly skewed the results.
hanniabu 3y ago
Studies say ray guns are great at fighting cancer, but terrile for heart health

Dalewyn 3y ago

The moral of all these tales is that the best diet is composed of a reasonable balance of varied foods that you like, not something that takes the meter to +/-11. Too much of anything is bad, as is too little.

tazjin 3y ago

Yes, eat less cheeseburgers and pizza, and more steak.