6 ms·

SBF decided to testify against CZ to try to save his own ass, giving justice dept and sec something to fine CZ with. Govt collects a big crypto fine, fine make

SBF decided to testify against CZ to try to save his own ass, giving justice dept and sec something to fine CZ with. Govt collects a big crypto fine, fine makes the big losers in FTX whole, problem solved. CZ should have just bought FTX and closed the deal and made people whole, woulda saved himself some drama.

firekvz 3y ago
he has infinite supply of money to pay any fine, i dont really understand the fine amount, whats the porpouse of it, u either force them to destroy the whole exchange or just try to make their complete reputation go down but this looks like the govt getting some pocket money and letting them keep doing nasty things overseas and thats it?
- fyokdrigd 3y ago
  that's what fines are for. most people criticize fines as a mere check for the offender belonging to some moneyed elite and nothing else. fines are not replacement for civil law. if anyone think they were wronged, that's the only way. not a magically proactive government becoming their patents.
crispyambulance 3y ago
Isn't it better to just go after the scammers and fraudsters as soon as possible? Otherwise somebody else will be left "holding the bag" eventually (and it will be a larger bag). I might be old-fashioned but these fines and charges, to be clear, are for ACTUAL wrong-doing, you know, MONEY LAUNDERING. That's greedy-bad-guy stuff. It's not arbitrary or simply a matter of "avoiding drama".
xur17 3y ago
> SBF decided to testify against CZ to try to save his own ass, giving justice dept and sec something to fine CZ with. Is this conjecture?
- napierzaza 3y ago
  [dead]
- harambae 3y ago
  Looks like it, and also seems like BS. SBF was convicted ~2 weeks ago and a Section 35B (federal cooperation and substantial assistance) doesn't go through that quickly, unless SBF started cooperating against CZ before his conviction. And it sure didn't seem like SBF was interested in cooperating in any way pre-conviction.
jawiggins 3y ago
Why would these fines go to debtors of a private institution? I believe DOJ fines typically get deposited into the US Treasury.
- lossolo 3y ago
  Correct, I don't know why this is the top comment when it's so wrong.
- cdchn 3y ago
  There is a restitution process for victims of Federal crimes. One may make a case that the victims of SBF & CZ's malfeasance may be eligible for restitution. IANAL.
__loam 3y ago
It would have failed eventually. FTX was fundamentally unstable.
- SeanAnderson 3y ago
  Everything fails eventually.
- redox99 3y ago
  Rumor is that FTX is not that awful financially right now, because of their Anthropic investment.
  - to11mtm 3y ago
    ... I mean right now maybe, OTOH that space is as volatile as Crypto was 13ish months ago.
    - cdchn 3y ago
      If I was a bag holder in FTX I'd be absolutely on my knees praying for a piece of Anthropic as a substitute.
  - nl 3y ago
    The Anthropic investment is completely illiquid. It was liquidity issues that crashed FTX originally. TL;DR: they might have assets but they were and are still "awful financially"
    - __loam 3y ago
      I think they're also fundamentally insolvent even with the anthropic investment
drited 3y ago
Check the Reuters investigative pieces on CZ and Binance from 2022. They had plenty to fine him with before SBF's testimony. I actually can't believe he didn't get jail time given the severity of what was uncovered.
- OsrsNeedsf2P 3y ago
  > Lim also acknowledged in February 2020 that some of Binance’s customers, including those from Russia, were involved in illegal activities, according to the complaint. Lim wrote in a chat message about those trades: “Like come on. They are here for crime.” Money Laundering Reporting Officer at Binance responded at the time, “we see the bad, but we close 2 eyes.” https://archive.is/Q8uu3 https://archive.is/Q8uu3
  - qingcharles 3y ago
    Reminds me of my account manager at PayPal when I was running a TV torrent tracker. "We both know what you're doing, just never tell me what you're doing, OK?"
- wslh 3y ago
  Probably the information that they (Binance) will share is really valuable to US. Could we make a connection about Binance, and now Kraken prosecution with what happened after 9/11 where US pressed countries such as Switzerland to remove bank secrets? [1] [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2023/03/24/swiss-claim-the-us-banking-crisis-ultimately-toppled-credit-suisse.html#:~:text=In%20the%20aftermath%20of%209,their%20money%20elsewhere%2C%20Glass%20argued https://www.cnbc.com/2023/03/24/swiss-claim-the-us-banking-c....
LandoCalrissian 3y ago
Pretty great example of Hacker News when the top comment is "They should have done more crime but in a different way."
- mschuster91 3y ago
  As long as those who are affected by some kind of loss are (reasonably) made whole, most legal systems won't give a flying f..k about anything.
  - bumby 3y ago
    Tort/civil lawsuits are about being "made whole." Criminal lawsuits are not because they represent crimes against the state/society.
    - lokar 3y ago
      The state also brings civil actions that are not about damages or being made whole. See the ongoing business fraud case in NY against Trump.
      - mschuster91 3y ago
        That one is because Trump didn't make whole anyone across his career. Not the IRS, not his creditors, not the countless people he and his various enterprises stiffed (e.g. the tradespeople who worked on the casinos [1][2]). There's so many people who Trump and his various enterprises left stuck with sometimes very huge bills that it's a miracle he didn't get dinged years ago. And that is why Trump is being on the receiving end of the stick at the moment... he forgot one crucial point: never make too many enemies in life because eventually they will team up to get their revenge on you. [1] https://eu.northjersey.com/story/news/columnists/mike-kelly/2020/01/24/donald-trump-still-owes-money-to-contractors-who-built-taj-mahal-atlantic-city/4547037002/ https://eu.northjersey.com/story/news/columnists/mike-kelly/... [2] https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2016/06/09/donald-trump-unpaid-bills-republican-president-laswuits/85297274/ https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2016/0...
cdchn 3y ago
CZ is the one who pretty much orchestrated the FTX collapse. Chickens, home to roost, etc.
- knorker 3y ago
  I've seen analyses showing even without CZ it was just a matter of time before the house of cards collapsed. "It's only when the tide goes out that you see who's swimming naked". The tide was going out even without CZ's actions. And FTX was swimming naked to the bone.
  - cdchn 3y ago
    Oh FTX was definitely a house of cards, but maybe they could have played funny money games, got more investement, and otherwise stayed solvent until their Antropic bets paid off mayyyybe. But CZ definitely swept their legs out, purely out of spite.
    - knorker 3y ago
      Agreed, it's maybe-maybe not. This is like playing what-if. There's no A/B testing with history. What is not the case is that it would have clearly gone one way or the other.
lordfrito 3y ago
FTX has a ~$8B hole. It was far cheaper for CZ to pay the $4.3B fine.
- chipgap98 3y ago
  Depends if buying FTX would have stabilized the price of their FTT coin. That would have filled in some of the hole. And then CZ wouldn't have had to step down
  - lordfrito 3y ago
    So FTX would still be in the hole, and CZ is likely in the hole. Sounds like kicking the can down the road to me. That won't end well. SBF commits fraud and loses $8b, CZ pleads guilty and pays $4.3B fine and loses access to US market. I don't know why so many people think the crypto space is legit and this is just a temporary setback.
    - chipgap98 3y ago
      Kicking the can down the road is the name of the game in ponzi schemes
winternett 3y ago
Or nobody should have ever bought unsecured crypto on sketchy new exchanges... That would have saved the entire loss perhaps? Pretty much every major marketing push and normalized on social media (Including NFTs and influencer Culture) ends up being a massive scam. It worries me that no one sees the trend and holds social companies & people involved properly accountable for this form of crowdsourced theft.
MehghanLee 3y ago
[dead]
tho23u4i2343 3y ago
[flagged]
SkyMarshal 3y ago
The government wouldn’t give that fine to FTX investors and customers. They keep it for themselves. Making FTX investors and customers whole is FTX’s job, not the govt.
dagaci 3y ago
What the government agencies and police do with money they collect will surprise many, and in many cases might be considered corrupt. I can assure you that the very last possible thing that will happen is that the money will be used to make anyone whole.

firekvz 3y ago

he has infinite supply of money to pay any fine, i dont really understand the fine amount, whats the porpouse of it, u either force them to destroy the whole exchange or just try to make their complete reputation go down but this looks like the govt getting some pocket money and letting them keep doing nasty things overseas and thats it?

fyokdrigd 3y ago
that's what fines are for. most people criticize fines as a mere check for the offender belonging to some moneyed elite and nothing else. fines are not replacement for civil law. if anyone think they were wronged, that's the only way. not a magically proactive government becoming their patents.

crispyambulance 3y ago

Isn't it better to just go after the scammers and fraudsters as soon as possible? Otherwise somebody else will be left "holding the bag" eventually (and it will be a larger bag). I might be old-fashioned but these fines and charges, to be clear, are for ACTUAL wrong-doing, you know, MONEY LAUNDERING. That's greedy-bad-guy stuff. It's not arbitrary or simply a matter of "avoiding drama".

xur17 3y ago

> SBF decided to testify against CZ to try to save his own ass, giving justice dept and sec something to fine CZ with. Is this conjecture?

napierzaza 3y ago
[dead]
harambae 3y ago
Looks like it, and also seems like BS. SBF was convicted ~2 weeks ago and a Section 35B (federal cooperation and substantial assistance) doesn't go through that quickly, unless SBF started cooperating against CZ before his conviction. And it sure didn't seem like SBF was interested in cooperating in any way pre-conviction.

jawiggins 3y ago

Why would these fines go to debtors of a private institution? I believe DOJ fines typically get deposited into the US Treasury.

lossolo 3y ago
Correct, I don't know why this is the top comment when it's so wrong.
cdchn 3y ago
There is a restitution process for victims of Federal crimes. One may make a case that the victims of SBF & CZ's malfeasance may be eligible for restitution. IANAL.

__loam 3y ago

It would have failed eventually. FTX was fundamentally unstable.

SeanAnderson 3y ago
Everything fails eventually.
redox99 3y ago
Rumor is that FTX is not that awful financially right now, because of their Anthropic investment.
- to11mtm 3y ago
  ... I mean right now maybe, OTOH that space is as volatile as Crypto was 13ish months ago.
  - cdchn 3y ago
    If I was a bag holder in FTX I'd be absolutely on my knees praying for a piece of Anthropic as a substitute.
- nl 3y ago
  The Anthropic investment is completely illiquid. It was liquidity issues that crashed FTX originally. TL;DR: they might have assets but they were and are still "awful financially"
  - __loam 3y ago
    I think they're also fundamentally insolvent even with the anthropic investment

drited 3y ago

Check the Reuters investigative pieces on CZ and Binance from 2022. They had plenty to fine him with before SBF's testimony. I actually can't believe he didn't get jail time given the severity of what was uncovered.

OsrsNeedsf2P 3y ago
> Lim also acknowledged in February 2020 that some of Binance’s customers, including those from Russia, were involved in illegal activities, according to the complaint. Lim wrote in a chat message about those trades: “Like come on. They are here for crime.” Money Laundering Reporting Officer at Binance responded at the time, “we see the bad, but we close 2 eyes.” https://archive.is/Q8uu3 https://archive.is/Q8uu3
- qingcharles 3y ago
  Reminds me of my account manager at PayPal when I was running a TV torrent tracker. "We both know what you're doing, just never tell me what you're doing, OK?"
wslh 3y ago
Probably the information that they (Binance) will share is really valuable to US. Could we make a connection about Binance, and now Kraken prosecution with what happened after 9/11 where US pressed countries such as Switzerland to remove bank secrets? [1] [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2023/03/24/swiss-claim-the-us-banking-crisis-ultimately-toppled-credit-suisse.html#:~:text=In%20the%20aftermath%20of%209,their%20money%20elsewhere%2C%20Glass%20argued https://www.cnbc.com/2023/03/24/swiss-claim-the-us-banking-c....

LandoCalrissian 3y ago

Pretty great example of Hacker News when the top comment is "They should have done more crime but in a different way."

mschuster91 3y ago
As long as those who are affected by some kind of loss are (reasonably) made whole, most legal systems won't give a flying f..k about anything.
- bumby 3y ago
  Tort/civil lawsuits are about being "made whole." Criminal lawsuits are not because they represent crimes against the state/society.
  - lokar 3y ago
    The state also brings civil actions that are not about damages or being made whole. See the ongoing business fraud case in NY against Trump.
    - mschuster91 3y ago
      That one is because Trump didn't make whole anyone across his career. Not the IRS, not his creditors, not the countless people he and his various enterprises stiffed (e.g. the tradespeople who worked on the casinos [1][2]). There's so many people who Trump and his various enterprises left stuck with sometimes very huge bills that it's a miracle he didn't get dinged years ago. And that is why Trump is being on the receiving end of the stick at the moment... he forgot one crucial point: never make too many enemies in life because eventually they will team up to get their revenge on you. [1] https://eu.northjersey.com/story/news/columnists/mike-kelly/2020/01/24/donald-trump-still-owes-money-to-contractors-who-built-taj-mahal-atlantic-city/4547037002/ https://eu.northjersey.com/story/news/columnists/mike-kelly/... [2] https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2016/06/09/donald-trump-unpaid-bills-republican-president-laswuits/85297274/ https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2016/0...

cdchn 3y ago

CZ is the one who pretty much orchestrated the FTX collapse. Chickens, home to roost, etc.

knorker 3y ago
I've seen analyses showing even without CZ it was just a matter of time before the house of cards collapsed. "It's only when the tide goes out that you see who's swimming naked". The tide was going out even without CZ's actions. And FTX was swimming naked to the bone.
- cdchn 3y ago
  Oh FTX was definitely a house of cards, but maybe they could have played funny money games, got more investement, and otherwise stayed solvent until their Antropic bets paid off mayyyybe. But CZ definitely swept their legs out, purely out of spite.
  - knorker 3y ago
    Agreed, it's maybe-maybe not. This is like playing what-if. There's no A/B testing with history. What is not the case is that it would have clearly gone one way or the other.

lordfrito 3y ago

FTX has a ~$8B hole. It was far cheaper for CZ to pay the $4.3B fine.

chipgap98 3y ago
Depends if buying FTX would have stabilized the price of their FTT coin. That would have filled in some of the hole. And then CZ wouldn't have had to step down
- lordfrito 3y ago
  So FTX would still be in the hole, and CZ is likely in the hole. Sounds like kicking the can down the road to me. That won't end well. SBF commits fraud and loses $8b, CZ pleads guilty and pays $4.3B fine and loses access to US market. I don't know why so many people think the crypto space is legit and this is just a temporary setback.
  - chipgap98 3y ago
    Kicking the can down the road is the name of the game in ponzi schemes

winternett 3y ago

Or nobody should have ever bought unsecured crypto on sketchy new exchanges... That would have saved the entire loss perhaps? Pretty much every major marketing push and normalized on social media (Including NFTs and influencer Culture) ends up being a massive scam. It worries me that no one sees the trend and holds social companies & people involved properly accountable for this form of crowdsourced theft.

MehghanLee 3y ago

[dead]

tho23u4i2343 3y ago

[flagged]

SkyMarshal 3y ago

The government wouldn’t give that fine to FTX investors and customers. They keep it for themselves. Making FTX investors and customers whole is FTX’s job, not the govt.

dagaci 3y ago

What the government agencies and police do with money they collect will surprise many, and in many cases might be considered corrupt. I can assure you that the very last possible thing that will happen is that the money will be used to make anyone whole.