22 ms·

Gang crisis shaking Sweden

136 points by pretext 3y ago

whearyou 3y ago
I suspect anyone who wants to address the elephant in the room here will have to choose between accepting support from semi-fascist types or getting cancelled
- pempem 3y ago
  I suspect you haven't even begun to think your comment out. The idea that someone who does not presumably know the language, culture, or even where all the landmarks of a city/nation are suddenly start running organized crime is deeply mistaken and does not even track with the most well-known syndicates such as the mafia (1920s in NY compared to 1880s enmasse arrival of Italians) or cartels ("homegrown"). Look deeper and you would see these syndicates grew because there were purposefully and one might argued, promoted by semi-facist types or those who would get "cancelled" today, preventing reasonable opportunities from being provided to these populations. Even moreso, you might see that much of our economy depends on deeply underpaid labor continuously running agriculture and service sectors and now I would argue even tech, with the danger of being deported or not getting a visa hanging over their actions.
  - pempem 3y ago
    Some other notes: This graph, in the financial times article about immigration, indicates 5. 5 deaths per million. The growth is horrible and yet the reality is nothing like the one being lived in by the US. Most hackernews posters often post about gun violence in the US as being something necessary to address and also simultaneously something that does not impact their day to day decisions around errands like the grocery or activities like music festivals or conferences. Just to put things in perspective, deaths by firearm are around 60 per million in the US, twelve times the Swedish figure. Further, as every greying country attempts to use immigration to grow a declining population, some flavor of this comment will negatively impact their efforts: “Swedes make you feel foreign even when you have the passport, even my kids who were born here,” he says. “They blame immigrants for everything. But this gang violence affects me, my family, my friends as well."
    - noxer 3y ago
      I dont know where you got the statics from but these do not seem to be comparable values. It most like includes accidents and suicides which have entirely different factors than gun violence and for obvious reason are more likely to be committed with a gun if its easier to get a gun legal. Overall there is however no correlation with more suicide with better firearm access. Suicide attempts/surviving rates can be slightly lower (for obvious reasons). Either way none of these should matter since suicide isn't gun violence.
  - whearyou 3y ago
    Nice zinger. That was a lot of words. One question - are there any patterns with who is involved in this gang violence?
- throwawaaarrgh 3y ago
  Lol, somebody has a hot take but isn't brave enough to announce it
- screye 3y ago
  Not sure why it is so controversial. * A region with instability, poverty and agrarian-tribo-rural-economy will imprint emergent traits onto the local culture. * Long ossified culture cannot be shed quickly even in the best of conditions * Agrarian tribal cultural practices are incompatible with hyper-liberal secular society. Integration is the only option. * Integration is hard. Even more so when it is optional, gentle and approached with ignorant naivete. Of course things went wrong. The Swedish drank American kool-aid. Like America, they naively tried to claim that their national identity is not an ethnic identity. They set out to prove themselves better than the US by taking in large populations of refugees and showing how they could do the America model better. That's where they got it completely wrong. The US took centuries to decouple its cultural identity from its prevailing-ethnic identity. (by successfully secularizing Protestantism.) The US also heavily vets its immigrants (unlike Sweden) and places the most oppressive integration-force-field second only to France. The air you breathe (Media), the carrot (The American dream) and the stick (the English language) all perfectly align to facilitate integration of the 2nd generation born into the US. Swedish is an ethno-cultural identity. If you can't start with accepting that, then ofc the grand immigration plan was going to fail.
  - searealist 3y ago
    > The US also heavily vets its immigrants (unlike Sweden) and places the most oppressive integration-force-field second only to France. The air you breathe (Media), the carrot (The American dream) and the stick (the English language) all perfectly align to facilitate integration of the 2nd generation born into the US. Most of America's immigration comes from the southern border and is completely unvetted. Your thoughts on integration also don't align with reality. Edit: participating in this thread has resulted in the moderators of this site applying a rate limit to my account, so I can no longer reply.
    - screye 3y ago
      The rise of massive Hispanic immigration to the US is fairly recent [1] About 25% of USA's immigration is as a result of unvetted immigrants from the south [2]. It is still a minority. The majority come here through family (pre-integrated) or for work (high bar for productivity). Also, Mexico is not the same as war torn middle-east. Mexicans are already culturally aligned (Christianity), ethnically aligned (massive white admixture) and economically far closer to the developed world as compared to the recent warn-torn middle eastern nations. There have been large & well-established Spanish-Christian communities within the US for centuries, which makes it much harder for them to ghettoize. My point about the integration force-field still stands. [1] https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/2020/08/20/facts-on-u-s-immigrants/#:~:text=groups%20were%20much%20more%20evenly%20dispersed https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/2020/08/20/facts-on-u-s... [2] https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/2020/08/20/facts-on-u-s-immigrants/#:~:text=unauthorized%20immigrants%20from%20Mexico%20fell%20from%20a%20peak%20of%206.9%20million%20in%202007%20to%204.9%20million%20in%202017 https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/2020/08/20/facts-on-u-s...
- turbohz 3y ago
  About binary thinking....
- lnsru 3y ago
  The same elephant is in the room in Germany. The society starts discovering patriotism which was unthinkable few years ago. The problem gets slowly too noticeable to be hidden by mainstream politicians.
- woodruffw 3y ago
  And what, exactly, is the "elephant in the room"? If this is meant to be a dogwhistle about immigration, it seems appropriate to observe that many of the countries TFA compares Sweden to (Greece, Denmark, Belgium, Netherlands) have similar immigration patterns without the same violent crime rates.
  - NicoJuicy 3y ago
    > Sweden to (Greece, Denmark, Belgium, Netherlands) have similar immigration patterns without the same violent crime rates. You haven't gone to Brussels I suppose... Especially Molenbeek or Station Zuid. Ps. I'm from Belgium
    - woodruffw 3y ago
      > You haven't gone to Brussels I suppose... Especially Molenbeek or Station Zuid. I go to Brussels at least once a year. Again with the obliqueness: is there something specific you want to say? Is the implication that your national police force is suppressing the "real" murder rate?
      - NicoJuicy 3y ago
        Criminality isn't just murder rates https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2023/07/27/station-brussel-zuid-kampt-met-toenemende-criminaliteit/ https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2023/07/27/station-brussel-zuid...
    - fullspectrumdev 3y ago
      I stay in that area with friends whenever I visit. It’s completely fine.
      - NicoJuicy 3y ago
        Male and walking in the day+ not alone? - A friend of mine had an escort picking her up at the station from her work. - My mom + a friend of her felt threatened by a non-native, when taking the train back from the airport. These are retired women and my mom's friend travels 3 x a year everywhere. She felt the most unsafe here in Brussels and not taking the train again. ( This was after Operation "cleanup") - Operation cleanup in Brussels South - ( https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/en/2023/08/29/brussels-south-two-days-after-the-major-police-operation-first/ https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/en/2023/08/29/brussels-south-two-d... ) which resulted in 56 arrests and some people on a wanted list ( https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/en/2023/08/28/56-arrested-in-police-operation-around-brussels-south-station/ https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/en/2023/08/28/56-arrested-in-polic... ). Note: this was a criminal cleanup that was mentioned on the media upfront - 5 younger kids from Brussels raped an ex in Malta ( news update from 16/11/2023) https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2023/11/16/belgische-jongeren-vrij-op-borg-in-malta-verkrachting/ https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2023/11/16/belgische-jongeren-v... - News from 2 days ago ( 18/11/2023) The most popular bars ( Delirium, you've probably went ) where 2 female tourists got drugged and raped https://www.hln.be/brussel/elke-keer-ik-wakker-werd-was-mijn-shirt-opgetrokken-of-mijn-broek-opengeritst-margot-22-werd-gedrogeerd-tijdens-avondje-uit-in-brussel~ad5a4909/ https://www.hln.be/brussel/elke-keer-ik-wakker-werd-was-mijn... Plenty of other examples. Including from people living there or lived there. https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/en/2022/03/01/molenbeek-police-station-attacked-with-molotov-cocktails/ https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/en/2022/03/01/molenbeek-police-sta... Or... it's a coincidence that Abdeslam was from Molenbeek? :) Sure
- patall 3y ago
  I suspect that many people still havn't realized that the elephant in the room is not solved by stricter laws. Because those are in place everywhere. The elephant is what is supposed to happen to those people. Because nobody wants them. And when you cannot deport, what are you going to do?
  - w1n5t0n99 3y ago
    [dead]
  - nradov 3y ago
    The usual solution has been to pay some third country to take them.
    - patall 3y ago
      Yes, like the UK-Ruanda plan. Problem is that this very unethical (regarding the native population of the third country, especially if not very democratic). And has the risk that those countries make a business out of it
      - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
        >And has the risk that those countries make a business out of it As opposed to the current state of things where migration is already a big business both legal and otherwise? Check how much money smugglers make. And the likes of Turkey and North Africa squeezing the EU for money to "prevent migrants crossing the Mediterranean". How's that working out?
        patall 3y ago
        And two times big business is better than once? Of course the current agreements have the same flaw.
antics9 3y ago
Shootings occur in all kinds of areas in the major cities, but also in smaller towns. Sweden has also had a worrying number of bombs outside stairwells in residential areas and in detached houses. Therefore, the problems are not only concentrated in marginalized areas or what the Swedish Police call, particularly vulnerable areas. Per capita, Sweden has twice as many gang members as Mexico but you can hardly compare the gang structures in the two countries. Although it happens that innocent people die or get injured, the acts are targeted at active gang members and, more recently, tragically, their families to a greater extent. The problems are significant in the context of gang crime, but it's not like an ordinary person needs to be afraid of being out for a walk or being assaulted, robbed, or attacked by gangs. In Malmö, which is Sweden's third-largest city and is located near Copenhagen, gang problems have significantly decreased in recent years through Group Violence Intervention efforts. I'm not trying to gloss over the problems, which are significant, but I understand that the authorities and communities have the will, knowledge, and resources to change the situation.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  Very comparable in the Netherlands, fortunately for now still limited to the larger cities but it is also slowly spreading out from there. Most of this is drug related.
  - crtified 3y ago
    > Most of this is drug related. Perhaps, but we need to be careful what conclusions (and reactions) we take from that. People from all walks of life make regular usage of recreational intoxicants, often perfectly legally. Huge, legitimate global industries are dedicated to it. If that association were the primary basis upon which to categorise as a gang, or as morally corrupt, then the Champagne region of France, and the Coca-Cola Corp (associate and maker of many an alcoholic beverage, among their giant stable of products), would be among the world's biggest "gangs". And yes, in some ways they are! but that's another matter. So, despite the common 'drug' associations of gangs, the unique commonalities which define criminal gangs lie elsewhere, and thus a primary focus upon intoxicants, when attempting to address gang criminality - such as the longterm ineffective War-on-Drugs rhetoric - is doomed to failure, as the proof of reality shows. Magically take away all drugs and alcohol overnight, and we'd still have a disenfranchised minority social underbelly, realising their discontent in all-new and equally potentially harmful ways.
chrisbrandow 3y ago
Multi-ethnic democracy is a harder mode than mono-ethnic democracy, which is why most comparisons of the US failures at various social policies to Scandinavian countries have always bugged me. People don’t naturally feel as much allegiance to others who look and sound different. It takes time to overcome that.
- letrowekwel 3y ago
  I fully agree. Globally highly multicultural countries tend to be less stable on average, and it makes perfect sense if we consider basic human biology. We are tribal animals, it's hard to get around that. Places like Sweden will have it even worse than the US, because migrants need to learn a fully new language to fully integrate, while most migrants to the US have at least some English skills to begin with.
nickdothutton 3y ago
I’ve watched this story grow over the last decades or so. There is no gang problem, its just a conspiracy theory/propaganda. There is a gang problem but it’s overstated. There is a serious gang problem. There is a serious gang problem but it’s bikers. There is a serious gang problem, OK, it’s not bikers. There is a serious gang problem, it’s immigrants and immigrant descended Swedes, but it’s Sweden’s fault for not integrating them <-You are here.
- oblio 3y ago
  What are the next phases?
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    Fascists and populists get more popular with voters.
    - workfromspace 3y ago
      This is actually almost the current step in many places. What's the next step after that?
      - LargoLasskhyfv 3y ago
        Consequences. Like erecting a transparent plexiglass-cylinder with 3 meters diameter and 5 meters height in public, filling it up to half height with pig piss. Dropping the problems into it, until they cease to exist. And associated bystanders realizing there will be no paradise for them, soiled before the eyes of their god. Simple, isn't it?
      - archagon 3y ago
        Self-destruction?
  - gosub100 3y ago
    [flagged]
jongjong 3y ago
I've been predicting a rise in numbers of 'good gangs' in the west for years now. Of course it must start with a rise in bad gangs first. I believe we're heading towards anarchy. The law just doesn't serve the majority anymore.
- injeolmi_love 3y ago
  Exactly this. It’s not even a secret, quite a few intelligence and defense agencies have published reports in this issue. These agencies even intentionally using this process to destabilize target countries first. Based on what I’ve read the agencies haven’t fully recognized that it will eventually come for everyone, though I have seen that written as a scenario. It’s likely effective state agencies will continue to develop novel funding sources in preparation, and the transition will be cleaner in countries where they’re successful. Your local district paying a monthly fee for the FBI’s security plan would be a better choice than a gang style security startup.
  - jongjong 3y ago
    It feels like the tables are turning and the tactics that the west used to destabilize developing countries will now be used against it. Also, the west might end up saddled with illegitimate debts to consolidate the mass enslavement under a corrupt elite class just like it was in Africa. I won't be surprised if we start to see western dictators come to power (if it hasn't already happened). We should expect our dictators to be cunning and use old beliefs to their advantage so that people don't recognise them as dictators.
    - injeolmi_love 3y ago
      That’s definitely a possible outcome. I don’t think the universe enforces cosmic justice though, so it’s just as possible the west transitions into the post-state era with stronger institutions and more access to resources.
  - timcambrant 3y ago
    Could you please link any of these reports? Not trying to have you google for me; I just couldn't find them.
injeolmi_love 3y ago
This is a story about how a yet another state is failing to provide security, so private actors - gangs - are filling the role the state is not. Yet instead of blaming the security monopoly for the lack of security, the interviewees are blaming the gang members for “not integrating”. To be fair to the state, As migration flows increase alongside technological radicalization, states are increasingly struggling to fill their traditional roles. People should prepare themselves.
throwawaaarrgh 3y ago
[flagged]
- threeseed 3y ago
  These sort of posts invite this sort of people. And if you look at many of those posting they are either very recently created accounts or rarely contribute.
  - bigbillheck 3y ago
    I looked at a bunch and found many of them were established HN users with four-digit karma.
    - TheGuyWhoCodes 3y ago
      it's just a way to wishy-washy other people opinions because they disagree with what they have to say. I personally don't like these kind of discussions in HN, most are personal opinions and rarely backed up by statistics or official sources.
    - threeseed 3y ago
      Yes because many is not the same as all.
- croisillon 3y ago
  they're not paid to tweet anymore since the boycott and exploring new venues
- bigbillheck 3y ago
  This place is full of those people, and the rule seems to be that you can be as racist as you want as long as you're genteel about it and don't actively start dropping slurs.
- letrowekwel 3y ago
  It's not xenophobia to point out that a nation's migration policy is failing, when it obviously is. It's a systemic issue, not some cultures or people being better or worse.
threeseed 3y ago
@pretext, @dang. This sort of content goes against the guidelines, offers nothing of interest to the broader hacker community, invites the wrong sort of people to post and offers no additional insightful or new information to the discourse. I think those submitting need to ask if they are making this place better or worse.
- Dah00n 3y ago
  Yes, we really do not need this on HN.
codr7 3y ago
I grew up in Sweden, moved around a bit in Europe and lately came back. What worries me about the country is not primarily gang criminality, but the general degradation of everything that was once good about Swedish society. Probably still better than a lot of places. Immigrants who come here often praise the system, how well everything works here; but they have no idea how well it used to work.
- davemccrea 3y ago
  Can you offer some specifics? In what parts of Swedish society is this degradation most acute?
  - Legogris 3y ago
    For one: Public healthcare used to be reasonably accessible. Now it's not rare to wait >6 months to get examined for anything beyond emergencies. Also true for mental health.
  - codr7 3y ago
    I'm 46 yo. When I grew up, the Swedish state took care of a lot of things; public transport, phone services, health care including pharmacies, postal services etc. It was mostly cheap and reliable. These days all of it has been privatized, which has made it more expensive and not nearly as reliable. Even government institutions, like the tax office have gone seriously downhill lately. You used to be able to go there and get professional help in reasonable time. These days it's a joke in comparison. There isn't even a tax office anymore, it's been lumped together with the unemployment office and God knows what and staffed with immigrants just of the bus who don't know shit about anything. You used to be able to ask the police for help and expect to get it, politely; these days I'm more afraid of cops than criminals to be honest. I could go on and on.
    - ersii 3y ago
      > these days I'm more afraid of cops than criminals to be honest. Could you expand on your thoughts regarding why you're more afraid of cops in Sweden?
acyou 3y ago
Clearly, the root cause of the problem is not immigrants or immigration, as some others have suggested. It is the people of Sweden who have ultimately done this to, and continue to do it to themselves. It ultimately comes down to their society's collective system of values, where they have also decided that systems of values that don't align are both simultaneously unacceptable and somehow also still permissible.
rayiner 3y ago
[flagged]
- AdrianB1 3y ago
  They were living in a bubble, so "known better" was not possible. Even today some of them are still inside.
- m000 3y ago
  They should have been more involved in colonialism and slave trade when they had the chance. They would have learned and wouldn't have these issues now. /s
  - rayiner 3y ago
    [flagged]
- goodgrief6 3y ago
  [dead]
mrkeen 3y ago
> But in recent years it has achieved notoriety as the hometown of one of Sweden’s most deadly gangs and its notorious leader Rawa Majid, “the Kurdish Fox”, who fled to Turkey in 2018 after a number of drug and violence-related convictions. > Much of the recent violence is due to a major split in the Foxtrot drug gang, say police. Majid, who was raised in Uppsala by Iraqi parents, is believed to have fallen out with his former right-hand man Ismail Abdo, or “Strawberry”, who also moved to Turkey. ---- "Is there a lot of crime in Sweden?" "Ja we have a lot of crime. Ours are named Kurdish Fox and Strawberry." "Can't the police do something about them?" "Oh they don't live here any more."
- timcambrant 3y ago
  Well, some of the gangs are ran from abroad but absolutely exist in our home turf. But it's true we can't simply arrest the gang leaders, and there are people waiting to take the place of existing middle management as they are imprisoned. The two root causes of our gang problem is the amount of money drug buyers want to spend, and that it's still possible to combine crime with clean business and launder money through that. I live next door to a handful small businesses that each employ 2-3 people full time, have maybe 2-3 customers per day paying for services costing about 200-300 kronor (10 minute hair cuts, tanning salons, car reconditioning, 10 minute tire changes, nail sculpture), and they still make a yearly profit of between 0.5 to 2 million kronor according to public records. They are all staffed by people in their 20s that mostly hang around all day. I would assume these businesses are quite cash heavy even though everyone uses card payments nowadays. They are generally owned by people whose main business is property ownership, restaurants and construction, who keep a bunch of smaller businesses on the side. I don't think the state has the resources to even begin looking into this. As a privacy nut I have always wanted to keep cash but I'm starting to second guess myself.
TrackerFF 3y ago
For too long, there has been this apathetic "well, if I'm not a gangster, then why should I care?" mentality, because up until lately the crime has been localized to people in the gangs. Gang members killing other gang members, basically. Even in the no-go areas, you're pretty safe walking around as a civilian. You'd expect those areas (in Sweden) to look like war zones, where the citizens and bystanders are locked up all day, in fear of moving out. Yeah, not so much - the areas are very much "boring" suburban areas. But, alas, then the gangs started to bomb and shoot up apartments of rivals and their families. Suddenly you're not all that safe, because what if your neighbor turns out to be the second cousin of some local gangbanger? With that said, all this roots in piss-poor integration. The gang members aren't first generation immigrants, we're talking at least second gen - even third generation. And like all other organization, be that crime, terrorism, or whatever - they prey on the kids that have fallen outside the system.
- rasz 3y ago
  > The gang members aren't first generation immigrants, we're talking at least second gen - even third generation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rawa_Majid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rawa_Majid >Majid's parents are from Iraqi Kurdistan, but he was born in Iran when they were fleeing Iraq on the way to Sweden during the Iran-Iraq war. The family settled in Uppsala in Sweden when he was one month old
letrowekwel 3y ago
It's not a good idea to take in massive amounts of poor and uneducated refugees from distant cultures, give them free money and housing, and then just leave them be. That's not a real migration policy, it's just a recipe for creating a segregated society. The Swedish welfare state has certainly taken care of the basic needs of the migrants, but it hasn't really worked well at actual integration, and creating social mobility. Poorly integrated youths who see no future prospects through honest work are prime material for crime gangs to recruit. I still haven't figured out whether Swedish politicians and voters didn't realize this, or simply didn't care. What's happening has seemed inevitable to me for well over a decade.
- defrost 3y ago
  > It's not a good idea to take in massive amounts of poor and uneducated refugees from distant cultures, give them free money and housing, and then just leave them be. Literally the founding story of European Australia .. the bulk of poor uneducated landed here had criminal records to boot. Still, they were given work to pass the time and after a few decades 'free' land (well, other peoples land). These days modern Australia population is ~ 25% born elsewhere with a fair number of refugees and poor migrants but these are matched with education, job opportunities and initial placement in communities they can establish themselves in. That support is pretty crucial to minimising friction.
  - WirelessGigabit 3y ago
    Culturally they were all relatively equal. Same base religion. This is not the case with the refugee situation across Europe. Not to mention that the Australia thing happened in a time when there was plenty more space & opportunity.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - red-iron-pine 3y ago
    not everyone who went to the Oz was a criminal -- tho plenty were. there was a gold rush and for a while Melbourne was the largest city in the British Empire. plenty of actual "try my luck in the new world" folks landed, both in the 1800s and later.
yencabulator 3y ago
Dear Americans, please remember that European crises are very relative. Deaths from assault by firearm per million Sweden, 2020: about 5.5 (from the bar chart) USA, 2021: 43 (https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/04/26/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/04/26/what-the-... 48,830 deaths, 43% of those are homicides, population of 331.9 million)
- goodgrief6 3y ago
  [dead]
apienx 3y ago
It’s hard to overstate the pace at which Sweden changed since the 00s. Swedish culture still values multiculturalism. And, during my 20 years there, I was never able to convince anyone about the dangers of tolerating intolerance. When you check demographics’ stats, you realise that these issues will be compounded in the future. It makes me sad.
alienicecream 3y ago
Western Europe has lost its raison d'etre, and is committing harakiri.
simmerup 3y ago
[dead]
TecoAndJix 3y ago
https://archive.is/Le71e https://archive.is/Le71e
- archsurface 3y ago
  Is anyone else unable to get through this capture page? Every time it comes up I end up doing countless captures, clicking not a robot, round and round, never get through.
  - 1vuio0pswjnm7 3y ago
    https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:https://www.ft.com/content/79f0d181-bdae-4c81-a971-861ccd8d512c https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:https:...
  - 1vuio0pswjnm7 3y ago
    echo 198.23.187.186 archive.is >> /etc/hosts echo 192.210.214.166 archive.is >> /etc/hosts echo 90.156.209.190 archive.is >> /etc/hosts echo 139.99.171.251 archive.is >> /etc/hosts echo 185.101.35.175 archive.is >> /etc/hosts
  - slaw 3y ago
    The same here. Endless CAPTCHA loop. Edit: Turning off Cloudflare DNS in Firefox helped.
  - 4death4 3y ago
    Disable iCloud Private Relay.
  - frereubu 3y ago
    This happens if you're using Cloudflare DNS: https://jarv.is/notes/cloudflare-dns-archive-is-blocked/ https://jarv.is/notes/cloudflare-dns-archive-is-blocked/ (Sounds like iCloud private relay may do the same for the same reasons).
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
mrkeen 3y ago
The title is all this site is willing to divulge to me. I just took the train into the city, had a burger & beer, and soon I'll train back home. I have zero worries about my safety. Anyway, the Right party pulled the balance of power from the Left and formed a centre/right coalition more than a year ago, because of all the bad people coming here and doing bad things. Weren't they going to fix this?
- jacquesm 3y ago
  They're not going to fix it because then nobody will vote for them. Besides, they can't fix it, they just needed a bogeyman and there isn't much to fix to begin with. All that you can do is educate and aim to reduce the gap with the next generation or to accept that your own culture isn't static. Ask the Scottish how they feel about Sweden exporting its culture a while ago.
  - ersii 3y ago
    > Ask the Scottish how they feel about Sweden exporting its culture a while ago. What's this referring to?
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindisfarne#Viking_raid_on_the_monastery_(793) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindisfarne#Viking_raid_on_the...
    - defrost 3y ago
      Sweden | Norway | Denmark made #thuglife a thing across modern Scotland, northern and eastern England, much of Ireland, established DaneLaw, crashed the old Roman bathhouses, and turned Dublin into a major European slave teading hub. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danelaw https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danelaw The Danelaw originated from the invasion of *the Great Heathen Army* into England in the year 865, although the term was not used to describe a geographic area until the 11th century.
- arthur_sav 3y ago
incomingpain 3y ago
[flagged]
- Smar 3y ago
  Which one of the unrelated systems did you mean?
- google234123 3y ago
  Same with the drug decriminalizing people- always blame something else when it goes wrong. Unable to consider maybe it was a bad idea
  - zx8080 3y ago
    Regular politics. Some people wants more power via fear and chaos. Nothing new.
- pessimizer 3y ago
  Saying "unrelated" is begging the question. According to you, the "right" is claiming recent immigration is related to the "violent gang crisis" mentioned, and the "left" is instead claiming that the privatization of the welfare system is related to said crisis.
  - xcv123 3y ago
    Their argument is that the left wing side are responsible, and are incorrectly blaming social factors other than the mass immigration of third world refugees who are now creating a gang ridden hellscape in parts of Sweden, emulating their original homelands. That is not begging the question.
    - AnimalMuppet 3y ago
      It is if you don't demonstrate the connection/causality.
      - 3y ago
romafirst3 3y ago
While this does indeed sound like a problem for Sweden and something they will have to fix, it's worth pointing out that by my calculation the US fatal assault by fire arm rate is 12X the rate that is causing a crisis in Sweden.
- Throwfi44 3y ago
  > fire arm rate is 12X Add explosives, hand grenades, kidnapping... US does not have a big problem with organized crime!
  - romafirst3 3y ago
    this is one of those statements that is too ambiguous for the internet. It's hard to know if you are being sarcastic? Attempting satire? Or you are trying to make a joke, or genuinely don't know what you are talking about. So, can you clarify?
    - Throwfi44 3y ago
      No I am serious, if you are comparing murders, you should include all weapons! There are regional differences! Fire arms are heavily regulated and relatively hard to get in EU. We are close to war zones, hand grenades are easier to smuggle, and are used in Sweden. If you include murders by knife, London is worse than US! Edit: also you wrote "assault" that could include anything from armed robbery without health injury, to self defense. Apples and oranges!
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - romafirst3 3y ago
        ok I've updated it to show that I mean "fatal" assault by firearms. Quick google search brings up the following "All in all, there were 77 incidents of detonated hand grenades in Sweden during the six-year observation period, in which nine individuals were injured and one killed." is this what you are talking about? Doesn't sound that dramatic. Seems like you are just trolling. Especially with the throwaway account, hard to take what you are saying seriously.
xcv123 3y ago
[flagged]
kurthr 3y ago
Good thing that plot didn't show the US on it. Firearm deaths are more than 6x higher than any other at ~30pm annually.
- networkchad 3y ago
  [dead]
- akomtu 3y ago
  There is, indeed, many gangs in the US, who drive the crime stats up.
  - kurthr 3y ago
    It's majority suicides. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/04/26/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/04/26/what-the-...
zx8080 3y ago
[flagged]
- KomoD 3y ago
  [flagged]
- poniko 3y ago
  That was spot on 100% incorrect.
- victords 3y ago
  > most locals want to go to UK and the US to live Absolutely not the impression I got when I lived there.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
gadders 3y ago
[flagged]
- drakonka 3y ago
  Context: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_Sweden#:~:text=The%20high%20number%20of%20reported,the%20number%20of%20unreported%20rapes https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_Sweden#:~:text=The%2....
local_crmdgeon 3y ago
[flagged]
- marginalia_nu 3y ago
  > Compare Italians in the US to these people; one group desperately wanted to belong the other doesn’t give a shit. To be fair the US spent a good part of the 1980s at war with the American offshoot of the Cosa Nostra, so I'm not sure if this is the best example.
sertbdfgbnfgsd 3y ago
[flagged]
mupuff1234 3y ago
[flagged]
- dauertewigkeit 3y ago
  Yes, because it is well know that Mohammad urged Muslims to create criminal gangs and start dealing drugs... Sorry, but what sort of stupid nonsense worldview do you have? There are certainly immigrants with non-western values and also immigrants who are criminals but why are you mixing these two demographics together? If anything the ones dealing drugs are likely to be the most westernized.
  - mupuff1234 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - dauertewigkeit 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - dh2022 3y ago
        The theory was not pulled out of anyone’s ass; is just common sense.
  - RockCoach 3y ago
    [flagged]
  - snird 3y ago
    This is not a racial or a religious thing. It's a cultural thing. There are migrants from the same countries that integrated well. The problem is mostly with the "asylum seekers" who never wanted to integrate.
    - zztop44 3y ago
      Is that the problem? Do you have any evidence for that belief? Or are you just throwing it out there based on a feeling or hunch?
fintechie 3y ago
Hungary and Slovakia, the only European countries that haven't allowed illegal immigration in, are at the bottom of that chart, while Sweden is getting rekt... Legal immigration is of course fine and necessary, as long as the state and socials systems can assimilate it... (Japan is a good example). But articles like this show concerning data points in western countries with uncontrolled migratory policies.
- hakdbha 3y ago
  [dead]
- injeolmi_love 3y ago
  Just because fascism works by its own definitions does not mean that fascism is good. Neither Hungary nor Slovakia are great places to live by most metrics, even for native born citizens.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    >Neither Hungary nor Slovakia are great places to live by most metrics Huh? What's wrong with living in Slovakia? You're making it sound like Slovakia is Botswana, Saudi Arabia or something when it's one of the safest and developed countries in the world, unless you opinion of Slovakia comes from the famous Bratislava scene from the movie Eurotrip.
    - injeolmi_love 3y ago
      Slovakia has a gdp per capita of around $21k and has stagnated with low growth since 2008. It has relatively high hdi ratings but these have also begun to decline. Both of those things are really not good for a country that hasn’t climbed out of the middle income trap yet. It’s a beautiful place, and there are certainly worse countries, but calling it one of the most developed countries is stretching the facts beyond breaking.
      - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
verisimi 3y ago
Sweden always had a massive gang problem, nothing to see here.
ecmascript 3y ago
[flagged]
- conradfr 3y ago
  Where?
  - ecmascript 3y ago
    I am assuming your asking where I'd go, and the honest answer is that I do not yet know but I won't raise my kids in todays Sweden, that is for sure.
- alephnerd 3y ago
  While Sweden absolutely can be much stricter with background checks, in my experience in Scandinavia, y'all are racist jerks. I'm a brown guy who's grown up in North America their entire life, and day-to-day conversations with people there suck. There absolutely seems to be a mentality that if you don't fit a specific trope you can't be Swedish. No amount of token representation in Scandinavian TV will change that. There needs to be a persistent societal change in Sweden to better manage diversity. The Swedish left sucks by infantilizing minorities and the Swedish right sucks by actively demonizing them. No one actually tries to communicate actively with minority or immigrant communities - they just use "community organizations" to do it for them. Honestly, despite all the issues the US has - managing diversity is definitely not one of those.
  - KomoD 3y ago
    > Honestly, despite all the issues the US has - managing diversity is definitely not one of those. You're kidding, right...? And we're all racist just because of some people you encountered?
    - alephnerd 3y ago
      I'm just saying it as I've experienced it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ It's hard to describe but there's definetly a palpable sense of otherness that I haven't noticed anywhere in the US. There is absolutely culture war issues everywhere (especially here in the US), but assimilating into being "American" is easy compared to what my relatives back in Europe faced and my own experiences there for work and vacation. And it's a big reason a number of them either emigrated to the US/Canada or back to Asia.
silenced_trope 3y ago
> Those on the right largely blame immigration, which has added 2mn people to the country in recent decades. Those on the left point to social factors, including the privatisation of Sweden’s welfare system which has led to worse services in deprived areas. Probably both things are true. When countries take in large amounts of immigration, their generous welfare systems can become stressed. Sweden didn't balance the concerns.
- marginalia_nu 3y ago
  It's largely the result of an ideological deadlock, where legitimate logistical concerns about immigration and integration were lumped up with islamophobia and racism. Immigration was also seen as desirable in order to address the demographic crisis and low birth rates. This in turn had the ironic side-effect of cementing a sort of structural racism where all these immigrants showed up and were given at best estate housing and a welfare check with very limited prospects for the same sort of quality of life as the natives. Turns out very few people want to lead a shitty life doing menial jobs as a second class citizen. Isn't that weird? Turns out if you give kids the career options of cleaning toilets or takeaway delivery (both for a pittance), a life of crime starts to look real appealing. Heck, it's a real testament to the humanity of these people that Sweden doesn't have more criminals than it already does.
  - Dah00n 3y ago
    Thank you for actually adding something interesting.
  - alephnerd 3y ago
    This needs to be upvoted. This is exactly what I've noticed across Europe. It feels like there's a glass ceiling outside of the arts and maybe politics. It doesn't feel like there are role models there like Satya Nadella, Jerry Yang, Alex Padilla, or Obama.
    - oblio 3y ago
      Have you looked at various leaders in places like France, the Netherlands, the UK, Germany?!?
asylteltine 3y ago
Massive unfettered immigration will do that to you
- m000 3y ago
  What are you going to do if you are a huge country, with a small population and a tiny birth rate?
  - workfromspace 3y ago
    "fettered" migration.
    - romafirst3 3y ago
      You make a joke but you've hit on something. I would argue that the American model is "fettered" migration (also apparent in gulf states and plenty of other countries), that is you allow illegal immigration but use it as a strait jacket to bind the migrants in. You force them to work below minimum wage in poor conditions that your citizens would never accept and then marginalize and vilify them when you need a scapegoat. I would say that is "fettered" migration and it doesn't work great either.

136 points by pretext 3y ago

I suspect anyone who wants to address the elephant in the room here will have to choose between accepting support from semi-fascist types or getting cancelled

pempem 3y ago
I suspect you haven't even begun to think your comment out. The idea that someone who does not presumably know the language, culture, or even where all the landmarks of a city/nation are suddenly start running organized crime is deeply mistaken and does not even track with the most well-known syndicates such as the mafia (1920s in NY compared to 1880s enmasse arrival of Italians) or cartels ("homegrown"). Look deeper and you would see these syndicates grew because there were purposefully and one might argued, promoted by semi-facist types or those who would get "cancelled" today, preventing reasonable opportunities from being provided to these populations. Even moreso, you might see that much of our economy depends on deeply underpaid labor continuously running agriculture and service sectors and now I would argue even tech, with the danger of being deported or not getting a visa hanging over their actions.
- pempem 3y ago
  Some other notes: This graph, in the financial times article about immigration, indicates 5. 5 deaths per million. The growth is horrible and yet the reality is nothing like the one being lived in by the US. Most hackernews posters often post about gun violence in the US as being something necessary to address and also simultaneously something that does not impact their day to day decisions around errands like the grocery or activities like music festivals or conferences. Just to put things in perspective, deaths by firearm are around 60 per million in the US, twelve times the Swedish figure. Further, as every greying country attempts to use immigration to grow a declining population, some flavor of this comment will negatively impact their efforts: “Swedes make you feel foreign even when you have the passport, even my kids who were born here,” he says. “They blame immigrants for everything. But this gang violence affects me, my family, my friends as well."
  - noxer 3y ago
    I dont know where you got the statics from but these do not seem to be comparable values. It most like includes accidents and suicides which have entirely different factors than gun violence and for obvious reason are more likely to be committed with a gun if its easier to get a gun legal. Overall there is however no correlation with more suicide with better firearm access. Suicide attempts/surviving rates can be slightly lower (for obvious reasons). Either way none of these should matter since suicide isn't gun violence.
- whearyou 3y ago
  Nice zinger. That was a lot of words. One question - are there any patterns with who is involved in this gang violence?
throwawaaarrgh 3y ago
Lol, somebody has a hot take but isn't brave enough to announce it
screye 3y ago
Not sure why it is so controversial. * A region with instability, poverty and agrarian-tribo-rural-economy will imprint emergent traits onto the local culture. * Long ossified culture cannot be shed quickly even in the best of conditions * Agrarian tribal cultural practices are incompatible with hyper-liberal secular society. Integration is the only option. * Integration is hard. Even more so when it is optional, gentle and approached with ignorant naivete. Of course things went wrong. The Swedish drank American kool-aid. Like America, they naively tried to claim that their national identity is not an ethnic identity. They set out to prove themselves better than the US by taking in large populations of refugees and showing how they could do the America model better. That's where they got it completely wrong. The US took centuries to decouple its cultural identity from its prevailing-ethnic identity. (by successfully secularizing Protestantism.) The US also heavily vets its immigrants (unlike Sweden) and places the most oppressive integration-force-field second only to France. The air you breathe (Media), the carrot (The American dream) and the stick (the English language) all perfectly align to facilitate integration of the 2nd generation born into the US. Swedish is an ethno-cultural identity. If you can't start with accepting that, then ofc the grand immigration plan was going to fail.
- searealist 3y ago
  > The US also heavily vets its immigrants (unlike Sweden) and places the most oppressive integration-force-field second only to France. The air you breathe (Media), the carrot (The American dream) and the stick (the English language) all perfectly align to facilitate integration of the 2nd generation born into the US. Most of America's immigration comes from the southern border and is completely unvetted. Your thoughts on integration also don't align with reality. Edit: participating in this thread has resulted in the moderators of this site applying a rate limit to my account, so I can no longer reply.
  - screye 3y ago
    The rise of massive Hispanic immigration to the US is fairly recent [1] About 25% of USA's immigration is as a result of unvetted immigrants from the south [2]. It is still a minority. The majority come here through family (pre-integrated) or for work (high bar for productivity). Also, Mexico is not the same as war torn middle-east. Mexicans are already culturally aligned (Christianity), ethnically aligned (massive white admixture) and economically far closer to the developed world as compared to the recent warn-torn middle eastern nations. There have been large & well-established Spanish-Christian communities within the US for centuries, which makes it much harder for them to ghettoize. My point about the integration force-field still stands. [1] https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/2020/08/20/facts-on-u-s-immigrants/#:~:text=groups%20were%20much%20more%20evenly%20dispersed https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/2020/08/20/facts-on-u-s... [2] https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/2020/08/20/facts-on-u-s-immigrants/#:~:text=unauthorized%20immigrants%20from%20Mexico%20fell%20from%20a%20peak%20of%206.9%20million%20in%202007%20to%204.9%20million%20in%202017 https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/2020/08/20/facts-on-u-s...
turbohz 3y ago
About binary thinking....
lnsru 3y ago
The same elephant is in the room in Germany. The society starts discovering patriotism which was unthinkable few years ago. The problem gets slowly too noticeable to be hidden by mainstream politicians.
woodruffw 3y ago
And what, exactly, is the "elephant in the room"? If this is meant to be a dogwhistle about immigration, it seems appropriate to observe that many of the countries TFA compares Sweden to (Greece, Denmark, Belgium, Netherlands) have similar immigration patterns without the same violent crime rates.
- NicoJuicy 3y ago
  > Sweden to (Greece, Denmark, Belgium, Netherlands) have similar immigration patterns without the same violent crime rates. You haven't gone to Brussels I suppose... Especially Molenbeek or Station Zuid. Ps. I'm from Belgium
  - woodruffw 3y ago
    > You haven't gone to Brussels I suppose... Especially Molenbeek or Station Zuid. I go to Brussels at least once a year. Again with the obliqueness: is there something specific you want to say? Is the implication that your national police force is suppressing the "real" murder rate?
    - NicoJuicy 3y ago
      Criminality isn't just murder rates https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2023/07/27/station-brussel-zuid-kampt-met-toenemende-criminaliteit/ https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2023/07/27/station-brussel-zuid...
  - fullspectrumdev 3y ago
    I stay in that area with friends whenever I visit. It’s completely fine.
    - NicoJuicy 3y ago
      Male and walking in the day+ not alone? - A friend of mine had an escort picking her up at the station from her work. - My mom + a friend of her felt threatened by a non-native, when taking the train back from the airport. These are retired women and my mom's friend travels 3 x a year everywhere. She felt the most unsafe here in Brussels and not taking the train again. ( This was after Operation "cleanup") - Operation cleanup in Brussels South - ( https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/en/2023/08/29/brussels-south-two-days-after-the-major-police-operation-first/ https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/en/2023/08/29/brussels-south-two-d... ) which resulted in 56 arrests and some people on a wanted list ( https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/en/2023/08/28/56-arrested-in-police-operation-around-brussels-south-station/ https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/en/2023/08/28/56-arrested-in-polic... ). Note: this was a criminal cleanup that was mentioned on the media upfront - 5 younger kids from Brussels raped an ex in Malta ( news update from 16/11/2023) https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2023/11/16/belgische-jongeren-vrij-op-borg-in-malta-verkrachting/ https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2023/11/16/belgische-jongeren-v... - News from 2 days ago ( 18/11/2023) The most popular bars ( Delirium, you've probably went ) where 2 female tourists got drugged and raped https://www.hln.be/brussel/elke-keer-ik-wakker-werd-was-mijn-shirt-opgetrokken-of-mijn-broek-opengeritst-margot-22-werd-gedrogeerd-tijdens-avondje-uit-in-brussel~ad5a4909/ https://www.hln.be/brussel/elke-keer-ik-wakker-werd-was-mijn... Plenty of other examples. Including from people living there or lived there. https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/en/2022/03/01/molenbeek-police-station-attacked-with-molotov-cocktails/ https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/en/2022/03/01/molenbeek-police-sta... Or... it's a coincidence that Abdeslam was from Molenbeek? :) Sure
patall 3y ago
I suspect that many people still havn't realized that the elephant in the room is not solved by stricter laws. Because those are in place everywhere. The elephant is what is supposed to happen to those people. Because nobody wants them. And when you cannot deport, what are you going to do?
- w1n5t0n99 3y ago
  [dead]
- nradov 3y ago
  The usual solution has been to pay some third country to take them.
  - patall 3y ago
    Yes, like the UK-Ruanda plan. Problem is that this very unethical (regarding the native population of the third country, especially if not very democratic). And has the risk that those countries make a business out of it
    - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      >And has the risk that those countries make a business out of it As opposed to the current state of things where migration is already a big business both legal and otherwise? Check how much money smugglers make. And the likes of Turkey and North Africa squeezing the EU for money to "prevent migrants crossing the Mediterranean". How's that working out?
      - patall 3y ago
        And two times big business is better than once? Of course the current agreements have the same flaw.

antics9 3y ago

Shootings occur in all kinds of areas in the major cities, but also in smaller towns. Sweden has also had a worrying number of bombs outside stairwells in residential areas and in detached houses. Therefore, the problems are not only concentrated in marginalized areas or what the Swedish Police call, particularly vulnerable areas. Per capita, Sweden has twice as many gang members as Mexico but you can hardly compare the gang structures in the two countries. Although it happens that innocent people die or get injured, the acts are targeted at active gang members and, more recently, tragically, their families to a greater extent. The problems are significant in the context of gang crime, but it's not like an ordinary person needs to be afraid of being out for a walk or being assaulted, robbed, or attacked by gangs. In Malmö, which is Sweden's third-largest city and is located near Copenhagen, gang problems have significantly decreased in recent years through Group Violence Intervention efforts. I'm not trying to gloss over the problems, which are significant, but I understand that the authorities and communities have the will, knowledge, and resources to change the situation.

jacquesm 3y ago
Very comparable in the Netherlands, fortunately for now still limited to the larger cities but it is also slowly spreading out from there. Most of this is drug related.
- crtified 3y ago
  > Most of this is drug related. Perhaps, but we need to be careful what conclusions (and reactions) we take from that. People from all walks of life make regular usage of recreational intoxicants, often perfectly legally. Huge, legitimate global industries are dedicated to it. If that association were the primary basis upon which to categorise as a gang, or as morally corrupt, then the Champagne region of France, and the Coca-Cola Corp (associate and maker of many an alcoholic beverage, among their giant stable of products), would be among the world's biggest "gangs". And yes, in some ways they are! but that's another matter. So, despite the common 'drug' associations of gangs, the unique commonalities which define criminal gangs lie elsewhere, and thus a primary focus upon intoxicants, when attempting to address gang criminality - such as the longterm ineffective War-on-Drugs rhetoric - is doomed to failure, as the proof of reality shows. Magically take away all drugs and alcohol overnight, and we'd still have a disenfranchised minority social underbelly, realising their discontent in all-new and equally potentially harmful ways.

chrisbrandow 3y ago

Multi-ethnic democracy is a harder mode than mono-ethnic democracy, which is why most comparisons of the US failures at various social policies to Scandinavian countries have always bugged me. People don’t naturally feel as much allegiance to others who look and sound different. It takes time to overcome that.

letrowekwel 3y ago
I fully agree. Globally highly multicultural countries tend to be less stable on average, and it makes perfect sense if we consider basic human biology. We are tribal animals, it's hard to get around that. Places like Sweden will have it even worse than the US, because migrants need to learn a fully new language to fully integrate, while most migrants to the US have at least some English skills to begin with.

nickdothutton 3y ago

I’ve watched this story grow over the last decades or so. There is no gang problem, its just a conspiracy theory/propaganda. There is a gang problem but it’s overstated. There is a serious gang problem. There is a serious gang problem but it’s bikers. There is a serious gang problem, OK, it’s not bikers. There is a serious gang problem, it’s immigrants and immigrant descended Swedes, but it’s Sweden’s fault for not integrating them <-You are here.

oblio 3y ago
What are the next phases?
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  Fascists and populists get more popular with voters.
  - workfromspace 3y ago
    This is actually almost the current step in many places. What's the next step after that?
    - LargoLasskhyfv 3y ago
      Consequences. Like erecting a transparent plexiglass-cylinder with 3 meters diameter and 5 meters height in public, filling it up to half height with pig piss. Dropping the problems into it, until they cease to exist. And associated bystanders realizing there will be no paradise for them, soiled before the eyes of their god. Simple, isn't it?
    - archagon 3y ago
      Self-destruction?
- gosub100 3y ago
  [flagged]

jongjong 3y ago

I've been predicting a rise in numbers of 'good gangs' in the west for years now. Of course it must start with a rise in bad gangs first. I believe we're heading towards anarchy. The law just doesn't serve the majority anymore.

injeolmi_love 3y ago
Exactly this. It’s not even a secret, quite a few intelligence and defense agencies have published reports in this issue. These agencies even intentionally using this process to destabilize target countries first. Based on what I’ve read the agencies haven’t fully recognized that it will eventually come for everyone, though I have seen that written as a scenario. It’s likely effective state agencies will continue to develop novel funding sources in preparation, and the transition will be cleaner in countries where they’re successful. Your local district paying a monthly fee for the FBI’s security plan would be a better choice than a gang style security startup.
- jongjong 3y ago
  It feels like the tables are turning and the tactics that the west used to destabilize developing countries will now be used against it. Also, the west might end up saddled with illegitimate debts to consolidate the mass enslavement under a corrupt elite class just like it was in Africa. I won't be surprised if we start to see western dictators come to power (if it hasn't already happened). We should expect our dictators to be cunning and use old beliefs to their advantage so that people don't recognise them as dictators.
  - injeolmi_love 3y ago
    That’s definitely a possible outcome. I don’t think the universe enforces cosmic justice though, so it’s just as possible the west transitions into the post-state era with stronger institutions and more access to resources.
- timcambrant 3y ago
  Could you please link any of these reports? Not trying to have you google for me; I just couldn't find them.

injeolmi_love 3y ago

This is a story about how a yet another state is failing to provide security, so private actors - gangs - are filling the role the state is not. Yet instead of blaming the security monopoly for the lack of security, the interviewees are blaming the gang members for “not integrating”. To be fair to the state, As migration flows increase alongside technological radicalization, states are increasingly struggling to fill their traditional roles. People should prepare themselves.

throwawaaarrgh 3y ago

[flagged]

threeseed 3y ago
These sort of posts invite this sort of people. And if you look at many of those posting they are either very recently created accounts or rarely contribute.
- bigbillheck 3y ago
  I looked at a bunch and found many of them were established HN users with four-digit karma.
  - TheGuyWhoCodes 3y ago
    it's just a way to wishy-washy other people opinions because they disagree with what they have to say. I personally don't like these kind of discussions in HN, most are personal opinions and rarely backed up by statistics or official sources.
  - threeseed 3y ago
    Yes because many is not the same as all.
croisillon 3y ago
they're not paid to tweet anymore since the boycott and exploring new venues
bigbillheck 3y ago
This place is full of those people, and the rule seems to be that you can be as racist as you want as long as you're genteel about it and don't actively start dropping slurs.
letrowekwel 3y ago
It's not xenophobia to point out that a nation's migration policy is failing, when it obviously is. It's a systemic issue, not some cultures or people being better or worse.

threeseed 3y ago

@pretext, @dang. This sort of content goes against the guidelines, offers nothing of interest to the broader hacker community, invites the wrong sort of people to post and offers no additional insightful or new information to the discourse. I think those submitting need to ask if they are making this place better or worse.

Dah00n 3y ago
Yes, we really do not need this on HN.

codr7 3y ago

I grew up in Sweden, moved around a bit in Europe and lately came back. What worries me about the country is not primarily gang criminality, but the general degradation of everything that was once good about Swedish society. Probably still better than a lot of places. Immigrants who come here often praise the system, how well everything works here; but they have no idea how well it used to work.

davemccrea 3y ago
Can you offer some specifics? In what parts of Swedish society is this degradation most acute?
- Legogris 3y ago
  For one: Public healthcare used to be reasonably accessible. Now it's not rare to wait >6 months to get examined for anything beyond emergencies. Also true for mental health.
- codr7 3y ago
  I'm 46 yo. When I grew up, the Swedish state took care of a lot of things; public transport, phone services, health care including pharmacies, postal services etc. It was mostly cheap and reliable. These days all of it has been privatized, which has made it more expensive and not nearly as reliable. Even government institutions, like the tax office have gone seriously downhill lately. You used to be able to go there and get professional help in reasonable time. These days it's a joke in comparison. There isn't even a tax office anymore, it's been lumped together with the unemployment office and God knows what and staffed with immigrants just of the bus who don't know shit about anything. You used to be able to ask the police for help and expect to get it, politely; these days I'm more afraid of cops than criminals to be honest. I could go on and on.
  - ersii 3y ago
    > these days I'm more afraid of cops than criminals to be honest. Could you expand on your thoughts regarding why you're more afraid of cops in Sweden?

acyou 3y ago

Clearly, the root cause of the problem is not immigrants or immigration, as some others have suggested. It is the people of Sweden who have ultimately done this to, and continue to do it to themselves. It ultimately comes down to their society's collective system of values, where they have also decided that systems of values that don't align are both simultaneously unacceptable and somehow also still permissible.

rayiner 3y ago

[flagged]

AdrianB1 3y ago
They were living in a bubble, so "known better" was not possible. Even today some of them are still inside.
m000 3y ago
They should have been more involved in colonialism and slave trade when they had the chance. They would have learned and wouldn't have these issues now. /s
- rayiner 3y ago
  [flagged]
goodgrief6 3y ago
[dead]

mrkeen 3y ago

> But in recent years it has achieved notoriety as the hometown of one of Sweden’s most deadly gangs and its notorious leader Rawa Majid, “the Kurdish Fox”, who fled to Turkey in 2018 after a number of drug and violence-related convictions. > Much of the recent violence is due to a major split in the Foxtrot drug gang, say police. Majid, who was raised in Uppsala by Iraqi parents, is believed to have fallen out with his former right-hand man Ismail Abdo, or “Strawberry”, who also moved to Turkey. ---- "Is there a lot of crime in Sweden?" "Ja we have a lot of crime. Ours are named Kurdish Fox and Strawberry." "Can't the police do something about them?" "Oh they don't live here any more."

timcambrant 3y ago
Well, some of the gangs are ran from abroad but absolutely exist in our home turf. But it's true we can't simply arrest the gang leaders, and there are people waiting to take the place of existing middle management as they are imprisoned. The two root causes of our gang problem is the amount of money drug buyers want to spend, and that it's still possible to combine crime with clean business and launder money through that. I live next door to a handful small businesses that each employ 2-3 people full time, have maybe 2-3 customers per day paying for services costing about 200-300 kronor (10 minute hair cuts, tanning salons, car reconditioning, 10 minute tire changes, nail sculpture), and they still make a yearly profit of between 0.5 to 2 million kronor according to public records. They are all staffed by people in their 20s that mostly hang around all day. I would assume these businesses are quite cash heavy even though everyone uses card payments nowadays. They are generally owned by people whose main business is property ownership, restaurants and construction, who keep a bunch of smaller businesses on the side. I don't think the state has the resources to even begin looking into this. As a privacy nut I have always wanted to keep cash but I'm starting to second guess myself.

TrackerFF 3y ago

For too long, there has been this apathetic "well, if I'm not a gangster, then why should I care?" mentality, because up until lately the crime has been localized to people in the gangs. Gang members killing other gang members, basically. Even in the no-go areas, you're pretty safe walking around as a civilian. You'd expect those areas (in Sweden) to look like war zones, where the citizens and bystanders are locked up all day, in fear of moving out. Yeah, not so much - the areas are very much "boring" suburban areas. But, alas, then the gangs started to bomb and shoot up apartments of rivals and their families. Suddenly you're not all that safe, because what if your neighbor turns out to be the second cousin of some local gangbanger? With that said, all this roots in piss-poor integration. The gang members aren't first generation immigrants, we're talking at least second gen - even third generation. And like all other organization, be that crime, terrorism, or whatever - they prey on the kids that have fallen outside the system.

rasz 3y ago
> The gang members aren't first generation immigrants, we're talking at least second gen - even third generation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rawa_Majid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rawa_Majid >Majid's parents are from Iraqi Kurdistan, but he was born in Iran when they were fleeing Iraq on the way to Sweden during the Iran-Iraq war. The family settled in Uppsala in Sweden when he was one month old

letrowekwel 3y ago

It's not a good idea to take in massive amounts of poor and uneducated refugees from distant cultures, give them free money and housing, and then just leave them be. That's not a real migration policy, it's just a recipe for creating a segregated society. The Swedish welfare state has certainly taken care of the basic needs of the migrants, but it hasn't really worked well at actual integration, and creating social mobility. Poorly integrated youths who see no future prospects through honest work are prime material for crime gangs to recruit. I still haven't figured out whether Swedish politicians and voters didn't realize this, or simply didn't care. What's happening has seemed inevitable to me for well over a decade.

defrost 3y ago
> It's not a good idea to take in massive amounts of poor and uneducated refugees from distant cultures, give them free money and housing, and then just leave them be. Literally the founding story of European Australia .. the bulk of poor uneducated landed here had criminal records to boot. Still, they were given work to pass the time and after a few decades 'free' land (well, other peoples land). These days modern Australia population is ~ 25% born elsewhere with a fair number of refugees and poor migrants but these are matched with education, job opportunities and initial placement in communities they can establish themselves in. That support is pretty crucial to minimising friction.
- WirelessGigabit 3y ago
  Culturally they were all relatively equal. Same base religion. This is not the case with the refugee situation across Europe. Not to mention that the Australia thing happened in a time when there was plenty more space & opportunity.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- red-iron-pine 3y ago
  not everyone who went to the Oz was a criminal -- tho plenty were. there was a gold rush and for a while Melbourne was the largest city in the British Empire. plenty of actual "try my luck in the new world" folks landed, both in the 1800s and later.

yencabulator 3y ago

Dear Americans, please remember that European crises are very relative. Deaths from assault by firearm per million Sweden, 2020: about 5.5 (from the bar chart) USA, 2021: 43 (https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/04/26/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/04/26/what-the-... 48,830 deaths, 43% of those are homicides, population of 331.9 million)

goodgrief6 3y ago
[dead]

apienx 3y ago

It’s hard to overstate the pace at which Sweden changed since the 00s. Swedish culture still values multiculturalism. And, during my 20 years there, I was never able to convince anyone about the dangers of tolerating intolerance. When you check demographics’ stats, you realise that these issues will be compounded in the future. It makes me sad.

alienicecream 3y ago

Western Europe has lost its raison d'etre, and is committing harakiri.

simmerup 3y ago

[dead]

TecoAndJix 3y ago

https://archive.is/Le71e https://archive.is/Le71e

archsurface 3y ago
Is anyone else unable to get through this capture page? Every time it comes up I end up doing countless captures, clicking not a robot, round and round, never get through.
- 1vuio0pswjnm7 3y ago
  https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:https://www.ft.com/content/79f0d181-bdae-4c81-a971-861ccd8d512c https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:https:...
- 1vuio0pswjnm7 3y ago
  echo 198.23.187.186 archive.is >> /etc/hosts echo 192.210.214.166 archive.is >> /etc/hosts echo 90.156.209.190 archive.is >> /etc/hosts echo 139.99.171.251 archive.is >> /etc/hosts echo 185.101.35.175 archive.is >> /etc/hosts
- slaw 3y ago
  The same here. Endless CAPTCHA loop. Edit: Turning off Cloudflare DNS in Firefox helped.
- 4death4 3y ago
  Disable iCloud Private Relay.
- frereubu 3y ago
  This happens if you're using Cloudflare DNS: https://jarv.is/notes/cloudflare-dns-archive-is-blocked/ https://jarv.is/notes/cloudflare-dns-archive-is-blocked/ (Sounds like iCloud private relay may do the same for the same reasons).
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]

mrkeen 3y ago

The title is all this site is willing to divulge to me. I just took the train into the city, had a burger & beer, and soon I'll train back home. I have zero worries about my safety. Anyway, the Right party pulled the balance of power from the Left and formed a centre/right coalition more than a year ago, because of all the bad people coming here and doing bad things. Weren't they going to fix this?

jacquesm 3y ago
They're not going to fix it because then nobody will vote for them. Besides, they can't fix it, they just needed a bogeyman and there isn't much to fix to begin with. All that you can do is educate and aim to reduce the gap with the next generation or to accept that your own culture isn't static. Ask the Scottish how they feel about Sweden exporting its culture a while ago.
- ersii 3y ago
  > Ask the Scottish how they feel about Sweden exporting its culture a while ago. What's this referring to?
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindisfarne#Viking_raid_on_the_monastery_(793) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindisfarne#Viking_raid_on_the...
  - defrost 3y ago
    Sweden | Norway | Denmark made #thuglife a thing across modern Scotland, northern and eastern England, much of Ireland, established DaneLaw, crashed the old Roman bathhouses, and turned Dublin into a major European slave teading hub. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danelaw https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danelaw The Danelaw originated from the invasion of *the Great Heathen Army* into England in the year 865, although the term was not used to describe a geographic area until the 11th century.
arthur_sav 3y ago

incomingpain 3y ago

[flagged]

Smar 3y ago
Which one of the unrelated systems did you mean?
google234123 3y ago
Same with the drug decriminalizing people- always blame something else when it goes wrong. Unable to consider maybe it was a bad idea
- zx8080 3y ago
  Regular politics. Some people wants more power via fear and chaos. Nothing new.
pessimizer 3y ago
Saying "unrelated" is begging the question. According to you, the "right" is claiming recent immigration is related to the "violent gang crisis" mentioned, and the "left" is instead claiming that the privatization of the welfare system is related to said crisis.
- xcv123 3y ago
  Their argument is that the left wing side are responsible, and are incorrectly blaming social factors other than the mass immigration of third world refugees who are now creating a gang ridden hellscape in parts of Sweden, emulating their original homelands. That is not begging the question.
  - AnimalMuppet 3y ago
    It is if you don't demonstrate the connection/causality.
    - 3y ago

romafirst3 3y ago

While this does indeed sound like a problem for Sweden and something they will have to fix, it's worth pointing out that by my calculation the US fatal assault by fire arm rate is 12X the rate that is causing a crisis in Sweden.

Throwfi44 3y ago
> fire arm rate is 12X Add explosives, hand grenades, kidnapping... US does not have a big problem with organized crime!
- romafirst3 3y ago
  this is one of those statements that is too ambiguous for the internet. It's hard to know if you are being sarcastic? Attempting satire? Or you are trying to make a joke, or genuinely don't know what you are talking about. So, can you clarify?
  - Throwfi44 3y ago
    No I am serious, if you are comparing murders, you should include all weapons! There are regional differences! Fire arms are heavily regulated and relatively hard to get in EU. We are close to war zones, hand grenades are easier to smuggle, and are used in Sweden. If you include murders by knife, London is worse than US! Edit: also you wrote "assault" that could include anything from armed robbery without health injury, to self defense. Apples and oranges!
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - romafirst3 3y ago
      ok I've updated it to show that I mean "fatal" assault by firearms. Quick google search brings up the following "All in all, there were 77 incidents of detonated hand grenades in Sweden during the six-year observation period, in which nine individuals were injured and one killed." is this what you are talking about? Doesn't sound that dramatic. Seems like you are just trolling. Especially with the throwaway account, hard to take what you are saying seriously.

xcv123 3y ago

[flagged]

kurthr 3y ago

Good thing that plot didn't show the US on it. Firearm deaths are more than 6x higher than any other at ~30pm annually.

networkchad 3y ago
[dead]
akomtu 3y ago
There is, indeed, many gangs in the US, who drive the crime stats up.
- kurthr 3y ago
  It's majority suicides. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/04/26/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/04/26/what-the-...

zx8080 3y ago

[flagged]

KomoD 3y ago
[flagged]
poniko 3y ago
That was spot on 100% incorrect.
victords 3y ago
> most locals want to go to UK and the US to live Absolutely not the impression I got when I lived there.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

gadders 3y ago

[flagged]

drakonka 3y ago
Context: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_Sweden#:~:text=The%20high%20number%20of%20reported,the%20number%20of%20unreported%20rapes https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_Sweden#:~:text=The%2....

local_crmdgeon 3y ago

[flagged]

marginalia_nu 3y ago
> Compare Italians in the US to these people; one group desperately wanted to belong the other doesn’t give a shit. To be fair the US spent a good part of the 1980s at war with the American offshoot of the Cosa Nostra, so I'm not sure if this is the best example.

sertbdfgbnfgsd 3y ago

[flagged]

mupuff1234 3y ago

[flagged]

dauertewigkeit 3y ago
Yes, because it is well know that Mohammad urged Muslims to create criminal gangs and start dealing drugs... Sorry, but what sort of stupid nonsense worldview do you have? There are certainly immigrants with non-western values and also immigrants who are criminals but why are you mixing these two demographics together? If anything the ones dealing drugs are likely to be the most westernized.
- mupuff1234 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - dauertewigkeit 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - dh2022 3y ago
      The theory was not pulled out of anyone’s ass; is just common sense.
- RockCoach 3y ago
  [flagged]
- snird 3y ago
  This is not a racial or a religious thing. It's a cultural thing. There are migrants from the same countries that integrated well. The problem is mostly with the "asylum seekers" who never wanted to integrate.
  - zztop44 3y ago
    Is that the problem? Do you have any evidence for that belief? Or are you just throwing it out there based on a feeling or hunch?

fintechie 3y ago

Hungary and Slovakia, the only European countries that haven't allowed illegal immigration in, are at the bottom of that chart, while Sweden is getting rekt... Legal immigration is of course fine and necessary, as long as the state and socials systems can assimilate it... (Japan is a good example). But articles like this show concerning data points in western countries with uncontrolled migratory policies.

hakdbha 3y ago
[dead]
injeolmi_love 3y ago
Just because fascism works by its own definitions does not mean that fascism is good. Neither Hungary nor Slovakia are great places to live by most metrics, even for native born citizens.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  >Neither Hungary nor Slovakia are great places to live by most metrics Huh? What's wrong with living in Slovakia? You're making it sound like Slovakia is Botswana, Saudi Arabia or something when it's one of the safest and developed countries in the world, unless you opinion of Slovakia comes from the famous Bratislava scene from the movie Eurotrip.
  - injeolmi_love 3y ago
    Slovakia has a gdp per capita of around $21k and has stagnated with low growth since 2008. It has relatively high hdi ratings but these have also begun to decline. Both of those things are really not good for a country that hasn’t climbed out of the middle income trap yet. It’s a beautiful place, and there are certainly worse countries, but calling it one of the most developed countries is stretching the facts beyond breaking.
    - FirmwareBurner 3y ago

verisimi 3y ago

Sweden always had a massive gang problem, nothing to see here.

ecmascript 3y ago

[flagged]

conradfr 3y ago
Where?
- ecmascript 3y ago
  I am assuming your asking where I'd go, and the honest answer is that I do not yet know but I won't raise my kids in todays Sweden, that is for sure.
alephnerd 3y ago
While Sweden absolutely can be much stricter with background checks, in my experience in Scandinavia, y'all are racist jerks. I'm a brown guy who's grown up in North America their entire life, and day-to-day conversations with people there suck. There absolutely seems to be a mentality that if you don't fit a specific trope you can't be Swedish. No amount of token representation in Scandinavian TV will change that. There needs to be a persistent societal change in Sweden to better manage diversity. The Swedish left sucks by infantilizing minorities and the Swedish right sucks by actively demonizing them. No one actually tries to communicate actively with minority or immigrant communities - they just use "community organizations" to do it for them. Honestly, despite all the issues the US has - managing diversity is definitely not one of those.
- KomoD 3y ago
  > Honestly, despite all the issues the US has - managing diversity is definitely not one of those. You're kidding, right...? And we're all racist just because of some people you encountered?
  - alephnerd 3y ago
    I'm just saying it as I've experienced it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ It's hard to describe but there's definetly a palpable sense of otherness that I haven't noticed anywhere in the US. There is absolutely culture war issues everywhere (especially here in the US), but assimilating into being "American" is easy compared to what my relatives back in Europe faced and my own experiences there for work and vacation. And it's a big reason a number of them either emigrated to the US/Canada or back to Asia.

silenced_trope 3y ago

> Those on the right largely blame immigration, which has added 2mn people to the country in recent decades. Those on the left point to social factors, including the privatisation of Sweden’s welfare system which has led to worse services in deprived areas. Probably both things are true. When countries take in large amounts of immigration, their generous welfare systems can become stressed. Sweden didn't balance the concerns.

marginalia_nu 3y ago
It's largely the result of an ideological deadlock, where legitimate logistical concerns about immigration and integration were lumped up with islamophobia and racism. Immigration was also seen as desirable in order to address the demographic crisis and low birth rates. This in turn had the ironic side-effect of cementing a sort of structural racism where all these immigrants showed up and were given at best estate housing and a welfare check with very limited prospects for the same sort of quality of life as the natives. Turns out very few people want to lead a shitty life doing menial jobs as a second class citizen. Isn't that weird? Turns out if you give kids the career options of cleaning toilets or takeaway delivery (both for a pittance), a life of crime starts to look real appealing. Heck, it's a real testament to the humanity of these people that Sweden doesn't have more criminals than it already does.
- Dah00n 3y ago
  Thank you for actually adding something interesting.
- alephnerd 3y ago
  This needs to be upvoted. This is exactly what I've noticed across Europe. It feels like there's a glass ceiling outside of the arts and maybe politics. It doesn't feel like there are role models there like Satya Nadella, Jerry Yang, Alex Padilla, or Obama.
  - oblio 3y ago
    Have you looked at various leaders in places like France, the Netherlands, the UK, Germany?!?

asylteltine 3y ago

Massive unfettered immigration will do that to you

m000 3y ago
What are you going to do if you are a huge country, with a small population and a tiny birth rate?
- workfromspace 3y ago
  "fettered" migration.
  - romafirst3 3y ago
    You make a joke but you've hit on something. I would argue that the American model is "fettered" migration (also apparent in gulf states and plenty of other countries), that is you allow illegal immigration but use it as a strait jacket to bind the migrants in. You force them to work below minimum wage in poor conditions that your citizens would never accept and then marginalize and vilify them when you need a scapegoat. I would say that is "fettered" migration and it doesn't work great either.