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calling USB A “legacy” and a “relic” is so misplaced. we all still own USB A devices. I challenge the author to go find a wired keyboard or mouse that comes wit

calling USB A “legacy” and a “relic” is so misplaced. we all still own USB A devices. I challenge the author to go find a wired keyboard or mouse that comes with a USB C plug. it’s possible, but not easy. the thing is, we could just have both! this isn’t some winner/loser scenario. the real question should be why these computers with enough bandwidth for 11+ connectors don’t at least split the difference with 6/5 of each. gives device manufacturers enough confidence that customers will be able to plug in the thing they bought, and gives consumers the ability to plug in anything and everything they need. then in 5 years when things have advanced we can start talking about entirely consolidating on USB C.

fnordpiglet 3y ago
Almost every device I’ve bought in 2023 is usb-c now, even low end stuff, and keyboards and mice. By 2025 I’d expect it’ll be rare and unusual to see a micro port on any new device. USB A is definitely legacy.
- layer8 3y ago
  PCs still come with half a dozen or more USB-A ports and only a single USB-C port (if you're lucky). Dongles, flash drives, webcams and the like are still prominently USB-A. Logitech's lineup is still mostly USB-A. I'm not sure that there will even be a full transition to USB-C, but if so, it will take quite a while.
  - dylan604 3y ago
    I just bought a new device that came with a USB-A to USB-B cable!!!! the horror!! Makes sense, as it pretty much functions like a printer, only subtractive instead of additive process. Then it has Bluetooth instead of WiFi for wireless!?!?
  - microtonal 3y ago
    I bought a new machine last week (Intel NUC 13 Extreme). It has three Type-C ports of which two are Thundebolt. We are slowly getting somewhere. Meanwhile my phones, displays, keyboards, all use Type-C connectors. Though some came with a USB-C to A converter. We are slowly getting there.
    - cesarb 3y ago
      Counterpoint: I also bought a new machine, a couple of weeks ago (Optiplex 7010 Micro). It has six USB A ports, four of them USB 3 and two of them USB 2 only, with the option to add a single USB-C port (or instead an extra DP or HDMI or even VGA or serial port); if you add that option, that USB-C port (which has DP alt mode) can be used to power the computer (instead of using the barrel plug), which is nice. Very high end devices might have more than a single USB-C port (which is probably your case, given the "extreme" in the name), and these ports might even be Thunderbolt or USB4, but that's still rare. In my opinion, we are still in the USB-C equivalent of the "only two USB 2 ports, if you want more get a PCI add-on card" phase we had in the serial/parallel/PS2 to USB migration back in the day.
  - fnordpiglet 3y ago
    PC motherboards are often like a study in the history of PC motherboards with vestigial functionality that hasn’t been in widespread use in decades. That’s a fairly poor indicator, and I think it largely happens to buffer the feature sheet, take advantage of cheap pricing on components over time, and copy and paste functionality in their design software. It’s over. The only place for a USB-A is on an aftermarket USB hub. That’s ok. It was nice while it lasted, but it’s time to move on.
    - layer8 3y ago
      There is no incentive for manufacturers to use USB-C over USB-A for applications that neither use charging nor need above-USB-2.0 speeds. A lot of peripherals and gadgets fall into that category. Another factor is the limitation on available PCIe lanes depending on chipset. If you can provide 8-10 USB ports, you won’t be able to give all of them USB 3 speeds, and having USB-C ports with different speeds on the same device would be weird, as there is no color-coding mechanism like with USB-A.
- pynappo 3y ago
  i think the GP was talking about wired peripherals that plug into usb-a ports on the computer side, not wireless mice/keyboards which use usb-c to charge my current wireless mouse/wired keyboard have usb-c on the peripheral end but I still use usb-a to connect them to the computer
  - Gigachad 3y ago
    These days it's common for the wire to not be fixed in. So it's just a usb-c port on the keyboard and you can use whatever cable you want.
  - davegirdy2 3y ago
    I'm still confused with the term GP. Shouldn't it be OP?
    - zargon 3y ago
      The OP would be the geenspun.com post or cute_boi, depending on context. The grandparent, in this case, is aslilac.
    - abdullahkhalids 3y ago
      GP means grandparent. It refers to the comment exactly two up. Ex. From my comment, GP is the comment by pynappo, starting with "i think the GP was talking... " Similarly, you can have GGP for great-grand parent, etc. OP refers either to the starter of the post or the top level comment.
    - numpad0 3y ago
      It's always GP in this subreddit.
- aslilac 3y ago
  going off of you saying “micro port” I think you’re talking about USB B.
  - cassianoleal 3y ago
    More likely they mean micro-USB. USB-B is anything but micro.
    - chungy 3y ago
      Micro-USB is a variant of the USB-B connector. The whole point of A and B was that A ports were used on the "host" system, and B were used on the peripheral. If you remember USB On-the-Go, that was an attempt to reverse the trend and allow a USB-B device (including micro ports) to act as a host. USB-C erased that distinction in favor of a full duplex network connection between two hosts.
      - lxgr 3y ago
        USB-OTG ports are technically mini-AB and micro-AB ports that can fit both A and B plugs. And USB-C is neither full-duplex (at least not for USB 2) nor host-to-host; there is a protocol negotiation and some devices can never act as hosts, although some can indeed assume both host and device roles. Even in a “host-to-host connection”, only one side will act as the host.
      - davegirdy2 3y ago
        "some devices can never act as hosts, although some can indeed assume both host and device roles"
      - Dylan16807 3y ago
        > Micro-USB is a variant of the USB-B connector. In the same sense that A and B are variants of each other, sure. Even though it's called micro-B, the design is closer to A, and micro supports both ends with basically the same plug. I would never refer to it as just "B". "B" means the square plug.
    - 3y ago
makeitdouble 3y ago
> I challenge the author to go find a wired keyboard or mouse that comes with a USB C plug.. I can confirm, it's a journey. It's the same kind of journey than finding a hair trimmer that charges on USB C. I see it more as makers being complacent and not giving a fuck though. There's no technical reasons for those to be USB A, and the USB C ones work great. So yes USB A will be there for a while, and more often than not it's a symbolic middle finger to the buyer, a signal that a product should probably be avoided.
- clnq 3y ago
  > USB A will be there for a while, and more often than not it's a symbolic middle finger to the buyer, a signal that a product should probably be avoided. You have exceptionally strong opinions about USB A and C.
  - makeitdouble 3y ago
    Micro USB is the real bane of it, but the time I spent to find USB-C versions of so many devices, including mices, made the issue a lot more personal I think. I kinda hate that we're stuck in dongle town for so long now. And going wireless brings in the charging issues. Computer makers are also to blame, but I think that ship has sailed.
- dec0dedab0de 3y ago
  So yes USB A will be there for a while, and more often than not it's a symbolic middle finger to the buyer, a signal that a product should probably be avoided. maybe it’s the opposite, it’s a warm hug reassuring you that they’re not going to change things just because some of the cool kids are.
- cesarb 3y ago
  > There's no technical reasons for those to be USB A, and the USB C ones work great. There's a good technical reason for keyboards and mice to still be USB A: adapters from USB A socket to USB C plug are allowed by the standard, but adapters from USB C socket to USB A plug are forbidden (because they would, together with a common USB C cable, allow creating the forbidden USB A to USB A cable). This means that USB A keyboards and mice can be used in both USB A ports and (with a simple passive adapter) USB C ports, while USB C keyboards and mice could be used only on USB C ports. Therefore, until having enough free USB C ports in computers is common enough, using USB A ports (with an optional adapter to USB C on the box) on the keyboard or mouse makes sense. This is similar to how, during the transition from serial and PS/2 mice to USB mice, it was common for them to come with a adapter which allowed them to be used either on a USB port or (with the adapter) on a PS/2 port.
upon_drumhead 3y ago
http://codekeyboards.com http://codekeyboards.com are currently USB C as are https://www.wasdkeyboards.com https://www.wasdkeyboards.com
- rgoulter 3y ago
  More generally, I'd think many/most mechanical keyboards are USB C. But I'd think that the budget, off-the-shelf keyboards would be USB A.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- rootusrootus 3y ago
  That is fairly meaningless, though. My six year old CODE keyboard could be USB-C today if I wanted, it uses a detachable USB cable. They wouldn't even need to make any changes to the keyboard other than including a different cable.
- crote 3y ago
  Note that these are keyboards and not mouses, and they have USB-C sockets rather than permanently attached cables with USB-C plugs. They are also very premium products. When it comes to the entire ecosystem, a $5 bargain-bin noname OEM keyboard with permanently-attached cable is more representative - and those definitely don't come with USB-C yet. That would probably add a few cents to their BOM, so it simply isn't worth it yet.
  - hughesjj 3y ago
    To be fair I'd much rather us converge to 'sockets on both ends' now that the plug is the same anyway Throwing away a perfectly good device because the cable is kaputz exacerbates our e-waste problem
  - upon_drumhead 3y ago
    I was replying to this specifically > I challenge the author to go find a wired keyboard or mouse that comes with a USB C plug. it’s possible, but not easy. where they do specially call out keyboards
korginator 3y ago
USB-C is simply more convenient to use, and you get it right 100% of the time, instead of your orientation being wrong 50% of the time with USB-A.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  If you get it wrong 50% of the time let me substantially reduce that for you: logo goes 'up' for whatever the normal orientation of your device is. That should clear up 99% of the cases.
  - gweinberg 3y ago
    More like 55%. The usb ports on the bac of my machine are sideways, and the one on the top is backwards-ass wrong from what I would expect.
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      Eww that's weird, ok in your case you are out of luck. That's pretty strange though, I have a ton of USB-A devices here and they are all in line with the way I outlined. So that's a bit of a surprise but it may well be an exception. As for the ones that are sideways: the 'bottom' of the case is the bottom of the motherboard, so if you think of it that way it might still work for all but the top side ones.
    - koolba 3y ago
      We live in a right handed universe so even sideways has a correct answer.
    - 9991 3y ago
      The motherboard has an "up" direction if you lay it out flat.
  - Zancarius 3y ago
    I had a Cooler Master case where the IO stack at the top of the case had the opposite orientation (logo down). Threw me off forever. I'm at a point in my life where I've just given up and figure that I'm only going to get it right 1/3rd of the time anyway: Nope, turn; nope, turn; yup.
abhinavk 3y ago
Weirdly, the port on a cheap mechanical keyboard I have is USB-C but the cable they packaged is USB-C -> USB-A instead. They likely didn't package C->C because of the chicken and egg problem. Not everyone has enough Type-C ports.
- tazard 3y ago
  Same. Keyboard and mouse
- Retr0id 3y ago
  Type-C hubs are annoyingly expensive, because they all assume you want all the USB 3.x speed and/or power delivery bells and whistles - but for connecting simple peripherals none of that is necessary. I built my own based on a USB 2.0 hub IC, but I never got around to publishing the design files. I should get on that! Even building a single prototype unit cost me about the same as a single off-the-shelf type-C hub, but of course, building subsequent units would be substantially cheaper.
  - jorvi 3y ago
    > Type-C hubs are annoyingly expensive, because they all assume you want all the USB 3.x speed and/or power delivery bells and whistles - but for connecting simple peripherals none of that is necessary. Meanwhile the most frequent complaint I read about USB-C is trickster/confusing cables or hubs because they don’t support everything
    - antifa 3y ago
      I have more trouble using Amazon's useless filters or finding products that even try to be more specific than just "USB-C".
    - Retr0id 3y ago
      My theory is that's why it's so hard to buy a "featureless" hub - consumers will demand refunds if feature X is not present.
  - 3y ago
gweinberg 3y ago
Maybe it's a chicken and egg thing, but why do we still have usb-a keyboards and mice and thumb drives? wouldn't it make more sense for them all to be usb-c?
- cesarb 3y ago
  Having them be USB C would mean they could only be used on USB C ports (adapters from USB C socket to USB A plug are forbidden by the USB standard, because they would allow creating the forbidden USB A to USB A cable), while having them be USB A allows them to be used on both USB A ports and (with a simple passive adapter) USB C ports.
  - lxgr 3y ago
    That’s a very good point. It doesn’t stop some manufacturers from still shipping the “forbidden” adapter type for just that use case, though. I prefer USB-A for FIDO authenticators for that reason (and because the plug is more robust for USB-A and basically indestructible; C plugs can and do get bent on a keychain).
    - TylerE 3y ago
      I have yet to see a bent usb c (not saying it couldn’t happen, but… It’s have seen multiple crushed USB A connectors.
      - TheKitchenSinc 3y ago
        As some anecdata, I work in facilities with hundreds of non-tech folks using USB-C Yubikeys and we see multiple bent connectors daily. Granted, our userbase isn’t known for treating electronics kindly…
      - lxgr 3y ago
        Ah, I should have been more precise: The (technically out of spec) "half-A" plug used by e.g. Yubikeys and some low-profile USB drives seems near indestructible to me. Regular A plugs can definitely be crushed.
dangus 3y ago
On the other hand, the introduction of USB-C will reach its 10 year anniversary in just a couple of years. If this were 2008 you would definitely call a parallel port, a 56k modem, or a floppy drive a relic even though you probably used one in 1998.
- anonymouskimmer 3y ago
  My 1996 $2000 Packard Bell was effectively unusable by 2003 or so. My 2003 or so upgraded machine couldn't play Youtube videos by 2012. My early 2013 $600 Lenovo laptop is still going fine today (though it helps that I don't game anymore).
- dehrmann 3y ago
  That's not a fair comparison considering how compatible USB-C is with USB 3.0 A/B.
  - dangus 3y ago
    Compatibility wasn’t what motivated people to switch away from the parallel port, 56k modem, nor the floppy disk. Consider this exercise: The Nintendo Switch is the third best-selling console of all time. Walk me through how you would design it if the only port was USB-A.
    - anonymouskimmer 3y ago
      Back in 1998 there were 4 or 5 main port types. And today there are still 4 or 5 main port types (with bluetooth as well). Compatibility was indeed the reason to switch to USB in the first place, as the universal serial bus made plug-and-play real. No reason not to have two USB port types, except device thinness. The only issue the parallel port, 56k modem, and floppy disk share in common is throughput. This isn't a problem with USB-A compared to USB-C (until USB 4.0 becomes mainstream).
      - dangus 3y ago
        You can buy middle American mass market automobiles that have USB-C and do not have USB-A. That’s your bellwether. Most of the USB user base doesn’t care about that nerdy stuff.
hhh 3y ago
I understand your point, but keyboards and mice aren’t the correct target I feel. I haven’t had a non USB-C peripheral in at least 4 years.
smohare 3y ago
Almost all of the dozen keyboards I’ve bought on the last few years are USB-C.
sh-run 3y ago
My mouse and keyboard are both usb-c and I wasn't specifically looking for usb-c when I ordered either of them. Logitech MX Master 3 and Keychron Q1. They are both relatively high end devices, but I don't think it's hard to find usb-c devices. That said I do own lots of usb-a devices and will continue to own them for the foreseeable future. I would not purchase a laptop that was usb-c only today.
- vladvasiliu 3y ago
  Is your MX Master the "mac" version? The reason I ask is because my 3s came with a USB-A dongle (which I prefer instead of Bluetooth). I've never used its charging cable, so I don't remember whether it was c-c or c-a. It also didn't have a C-A adapter provided, so if you want to use the dongle and only have usb-c ports available, you have to supply your own.
  - sh-run 3y ago
    That's a good point, thanks for keeping me honest! Mine is not the Mac version. USB-C to charge it, but dongle is A now that you mention it. It stays plugged into the back of my monitor.
- throw555chip 3y ago
  This keyboard is brand new, Type A. I don't recall any I was shopping for to be Type C.
cwbriscoe 3y ago
Both my wireless keyboard and mouse are USB-C. I use the C connection for charging them.
- vladvasiliu 3y ago
  My wireless mouse has a usb-c port for charging only (doesn't have a wired mode). But its dongle is usb-a only and no adapter was provided. It's a rather recent and "high-end" model, too: an mx master 3s.
drdaeman 3y ago
> I challenge the author to go find a wired keyboard or mouse that comes with a USB C plug. it’s possible, but not easy. My Moonlander Mk1 does, it has C-to-C cable with an optional C-to-A adapter on one end. My mouse is type C, but it comes with C-to-A cable. But, obviously, this is chicken-and-egg kind of a problem. No one will build a cheap mass market keyboard with a C-to-C cable for a market (desktop computer users) where type C connectors are nearly non-existent. Extra components (adapters or extra cables) won't be worth it. If the majority of desktops will shift to have majority of their ports of type C, you won't find a type A keyboard anymore. Just like you will have some difficulty finding a PS/2 keyboard today (sure they exist, but aren't exactly widespread anymore).
glennpratt 3y ago
The dirt cheap mechanical keyboard I just bought is USB-C. Which was great, because I didn't need an adapter.
arcticbull 3y ago
USB A was released in 1996, it's older than I suspect the majority of HN readers at this point. An A to C cable is entirely passive, so not exactly a big deal to get a cheap adapter. Not sure I'd rely on keyboards as the standard bearer for 'not a relic' many of them still support PS/2 via passive adapter. That was announced in 1987 and is older than me.
- picture 3y ago
  Comparing technology to human lifetimes doesn't seem very relevant. Even not accounting for broad categories like "fire" or "language", we're still using individual technology from "long ago" like knives, forks, pen and paper, etc. It's fine to make improvements that keep backwards compatibility (more ergonomic scissor should be able to cut the same paper), but changing connector just because it's old is unwise. The issue of type C is that it's trying to accommodate the entire spectrum of applications from very high bandwidth to very low cost. The range of possibilities has much increased since when Universal Serial Bus was devised, thus many recent solutions feel like they're bad at everything and good at nothing. Perhaps we should allow the specialization of type A as a cheap, reliable, slow, high power, connector, and save type C for only when high throughput is needed?
  - arcticbull 3y ago
    > ... but changing connector just because it's old is unwise Well not because it's old, I'm a huge fan of my 1/8" headphone jack. Type C is intentionally significantly more functional (not to mention the ergonomics of reversibility) but also fully backwards-compatible requiring only passive routing to get you a Type A adapter. > The issue of type C is that it's trying to accommodate the entire spectrum of applications from very high bandwidth to very low cost. That's up to the host. You can support just USB 2.0 with the same signals routed as a vanilla type A connector. There's even super cheap USB-C receptacles that only have the relevant USB 2.0 pins routed out. Like this one [1]. There's really no reason I can think of not to use one. [1] https://www.digikey.ca/en/products/detail/gct/USB4125-GF-A/13547388 https://www.digikey.ca/en/products/detail/gct/USB4125-GF-A/1...
MR4D 3y ago
> I challenge the author to go find a wired keyboard or mouse that comes with a USB C plug. it’s possible, but not easy. So let’s see . . . I have the following in my house, most are at least 2 years old and all are USB-C : MacBook Air MX3 mouse Keychron keyboard iPhone 15 iPad Air Xbox controllers (several) LG 4K monitor Racer Headphones Rode VideoMic Go II Pebble V2 speakers GoPro 11 Chromebook laptop
Kuraj 3y ago
Yet on the opposite side we are still buying USB A peripherals _because_ we do not have USB C ports everywhere.
lloeki 3y ago
> calling USB A “legacy” and a “relic” is so misplaced. we all still own USB A devices. All my client devices have detachable cables. All my host devices are USB-C and have been for a while, except for a) Xbox, b) RPis, c) Car. a) I rarely plug anything into it except a dedicated charging cable or the odd Xbox-specialized devices. b) for which client devices (if any) are never unplugged c) A cable is plugged in and never leaves the port For general-use client devices I either swapped cables for USB-C to uUSB-A or USB-B or had USB-C OOTB for recent devices, increasingly so on both ends. I also recently moved from an iPhone 7 to an iPhone 13 Mini. If it wasn't for Apple refusing to do an iPhone 15 Mini I'd be USB-C all around. > I challenge the author to go find a wired keyboard or mouse that comes with a USB-C plug. Accepted: I've had both for over a year: Keychron K2, Keychron M1. Logitech has a lot of devices with USB-C client side. The irony is that one of them came with a USB-A (host side) to USB-C (client side) cable. The other one was C-C with a "upgrade your computer connector" C-A adapter†. > Then in 5 years Huh. I've been going all in on USB-C since 2018, my strategy being to pick the new standard through and through and backport/polyfill USB-C on the USB-A host side† as needed, NOT the other way around. It's absolutely ridiculous that any off-the-self device today has anything else than a USB-C port client-side (which is where most of the mess actually is with all the mini x micro x hispeed x A x B x HDMI x DP connectors). I'm not throwing away any pre-C device or cable, I upgrade existing cables to be USB-C††. If a cable fails I get a C-whatever replacement. As far as I'm concerned USB-A/B is a relic. Folks cling onto it like they clung to VGA (then, and now HDMI), floppy or optical drives. † Upgrade the host port by leaving this permanently in the host device port: https://www.amazon.com/UGREEN-Adapter-Female-Converter-Charger/dp/B079K773M7 https://www.amazon.com/UGREEN-Adapter-Female-Converter-Charg... †† Upgrade the cable by leaving this on the cable: https://www.amazon.com/UGREEN-Adapter-Thunderbolt-Compatible-MacBook/dp/B0872VN39L https://www.amazon.com/UGREEN-Adapter-Thunderbolt-Compatible...
Max-q 3y ago
> I challenge the author to go find a wired keyboard or mouse that comes with a USB C plug. Not the author, but all my Logitech keyboards have USB-C.
blueflow 3y ago
> calling USB A “legacy” and a “relic” is so misplaced Calling established technologies "legacy" and "relic" despite them being widely adopted and used should be recognized as the manipulative intellectual dishonesty that it is.

fnordpiglet 3y ago

Almost every device I’ve bought in 2023 is usb-c now, even low end stuff, and keyboards and mice. By 2025 I’d expect it’ll be rare and unusual to see a micro port on any new device. USB A is definitely legacy.

layer8 3y ago
PCs still come with half a dozen or more USB-A ports and only a single USB-C port (if you're lucky). Dongles, flash drives, webcams and the like are still prominently USB-A. Logitech's lineup is still mostly USB-A. I'm not sure that there will even be a full transition to USB-C, but if so, it will take quite a while.
- dylan604 3y ago
  I just bought a new device that came with a USB-A to USB-B cable!!!! the horror!! Makes sense, as it pretty much functions like a printer, only subtractive instead of additive process. Then it has Bluetooth instead of WiFi for wireless!?!?
- microtonal 3y ago
  I bought a new machine last week (Intel NUC 13 Extreme). It has three Type-C ports of which two are Thundebolt. We are slowly getting somewhere. Meanwhile my phones, displays, keyboards, all use Type-C connectors. Though some came with a USB-C to A converter. We are slowly getting there.
  - cesarb 3y ago
    Counterpoint: I also bought a new machine, a couple of weeks ago (Optiplex 7010 Micro). It has six USB A ports, four of them USB 3 and two of them USB 2 only, with the option to add a single USB-C port (or instead an extra DP or HDMI or even VGA or serial port); if you add that option, that USB-C port (which has DP alt mode) can be used to power the computer (instead of using the barrel plug), which is nice. Very high end devices might have more than a single USB-C port (which is probably your case, given the "extreme" in the name), and these ports might even be Thunderbolt or USB4, but that's still rare. In my opinion, we are still in the USB-C equivalent of the "only two USB 2 ports, if you want more get a PCI add-on card" phase we had in the serial/parallel/PS2 to USB migration back in the day.
- fnordpiglet 3y ago
  PC motherboards are often like a study in the history of PC motherboards with vestigial functionality that hasn’t been in widespread use in decades. That’s a fairly poor indicator, and I think it largely happens to buffer the feature sheet, take advantage of cheap pricing on components over time, and copy and paste functionality in their design software. It’s over. The only place for a USB-A is on an aftermarket USB hub. That’s ok. It was nice while it lasted, but it’s time to move on.
  - layer8 3y ago
    There is no incentive for manufacturers to use USB-C over USB-A for applications that neither use charging nor need above-USB-2.0 speeds. A lot of peripherals and gadgets fall into that category. Another factor is the limitation on available PCIe lanes depending on chipset. If you can provide 8-10 USB ports, you won’t be able to give all of them USB 3 speeds, and having USB-C ports with different speeds on the same device would be weird, as there is no color-coding mechanism like with USB-A.
pynappo 3y ago
i think the GP was talking about wired peripherals that plug into usb-a ports on the computer side, not wireless mice/keyboards which use usb-c to charge my current wireless mouse/wired keyboard have usb-c on the peripheral end but I still use usb-a to connect them to the computer
- Gigachad 3y ago
  These days it's common for the wire to not be fixed in. So it's just a usb-c port on the keyboard and you can use whatever cable you want.
- davegirdy2 3y ago
  I'm still confused with the term GP. Shouldn't it be OP?
  - zargon 3y ago
    The OP would be the geenspun.com post or cute_boi, depending on context. The grandparent, in this case, is aslilac.
  - abdullahkhalids 3y ago
    GP means grandparent. It refers to the comment exactly two up. Ex. From my comment, GP is the comment by pynappo, starting with "i think the GP was talking... " Similarly, you can have GGP for great-grand parent, etc. OP refers either to the starter of the post or the top level comment.
  - numpad0 3y ago
    It's always GP in this subreddit.
aslilac 3y ago
going off of you saying “micro port” I think you’re talking about USB B.
- cassianoleal 3y ago
  More likely they mean micro-USB. USB-B is anything but micro.
  - chungy 3y ago
    Micro-USB is a variant of the USB-B connector. The whole point of A and B was that A ports were used on the "host" system, and B were used on the peripheral. If you remember USB On-the-Go, that was an attempt to reverse the trend and allow a USB-B device (including micro ports) to act as a host. USB-C erased that distinction in favor of a full duplex network connection between two hosts.
    - lxgr 3y ago
      USB-OTG ports are technically mini-AB and micro-AB ports that can fit both A and B plugs. And USB-C is neither full-duplex (at least not for USB 2) nor host-to-host; there is a protocol negotiation and some devices can never act as hosts, although some can indeed assume both host and device roles. Even in a “host-to-host connection”, only one side will act as the host.
    - davegirdy2 3y ago
      "some devices can never act as hosts, although some can indeed assume both host and device roles"
    - Dylan16807 3y ago
      > Micro-USB is a variant of the USB-B connector. In the same sense that A and B are variants of each other, sure. Even though it's called micro-B, the design is closer to A, and micro supports both ends with basically the same plug. I would never refer to it as just "B". "B" means the square plug.
  - 3y ago

makeitdouble 3y ago

> I challenge the author to go find a wired keyboard or mouse that comes with a USB C plug.. I can confirm, it's a journey. It's the same kind of journey than finding a hair trimmer that charges on USB C. I see it more as makers being complacent and not giving a fuck though. There's no technical reasons for those to be USB A, and the USB C ones work great. So yes USB A will be there for a while, and more often than not it's a symbolic middle finger to the buyer, a signal that a product should probably be avoided.

clnq 3y ago
> USB A will be there for a while, and more often than not it's a symbolic middle finger to the buyer, a signal that a product should probably be avoided. You have exceptionally strong opinions about USB A and C.
- makeitdouble 3y ago
  Micro USB is the real bane of it, but the time I spent to find USB-C versions of so many devices, including mices, made the issue a lot more personal I think. I kinda hate that we're stuck in dongle town for so long now. And going wireless brings in the charging issues. Computer makers are also to blame, but I think that ship has sailed.
dec0dedab0de 3y ago
So yes USB A will be there for a while, and more often than not it's a symbolic middle finger to the buyer, a signal that a product should probably be avoided. maybe it’s the opposite, it’s a warm hug reassuring you that they’re not going to change things just because some of the cool kids are.
cesarb 3y ago
> There's no technical reasons for those to be USB A, and the USB C ones work great. There's a good technical reason for keyboards and mice to still be USB A: adapters from USB A socket to USB C plug are allowed by the standard, but adapters from USB C socket to USB A plug are forbidden (because they would, together with a common USB C cable, allow creating the forbidden USB A to USB A cable). This means that USB A keyboards and mice can be used in both USB A ports and (with a simple passive adapter) USB C ports, while USB C keyboards and mice could be used only on USB C ports. Therefore, until having enough free USB C ports in computers is common enough, using USB A ports (with an optional adapter to USB C on the box) on the keyboard or mouse makes sense. This is similar to how, during the transition from serial and PS/2 mice to USB mice, it was common for them to come with a adapter which allowed them to be used either on a USB port or (with the adapter) on a PS/2 port.

upon_drumhead 3y ago

http://codekeyboards.com http://codekeyboards.com are currently USB C as are https://www.wasdkeyboards.com https://www.wasdkeyboards.com

rgoulter 3y ago
More generally, I'd think many/most mechanical keyboards are USB C. But I'd think that the budget, off-the-shelf keyboards would be USB A.
deleted 3y ago
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rootusrootus 3y ago
That is fairly meaningless, though. My six year old CODE keyboard could be USB-C today if I wanted, it uses a detachable USB cable. They wouldn't even need to make any changes to the keyboard other than including a different cable.
crote 3y ago
Note that these are keyboards and not mouses, and they have USB-C sockets rather than permanently attached cables with USB-C plugs. They are also very premium products. When it comes to the entire ecosystem, a $5 bargain-bin noname OEM keyboard with permanently-attached cable is more representative - and those definitely don't come with USB-C yet. That would probably add a few cents to their BOM, so it simply isn't worth it yet.
- hughesjj 3y ago
  To be fair I'd much rather us converge to 'sockets on both ends' now that the plug is the same anyway Throwing away a perfectly good device because the cable is kaputz exacerbates our e-waste problem
- upon_drumhead 3y ago
  I was replying to this specifically > I challenge the author to go find a wired keyboard or mouse that comes with a USB C plug. it’s possible, but not easy. where they do specially call out keyboards

korginator 3y ago

USB-C is simply more convenient to use, and you get it right 100% of the time, instead of your orientation being wrong 50% of the time with USB-A.

jacquesm 3y ago
If you get it wrong 50% of the time let me substantially reduce that for you: logo goes 'up' for whatever the normal orientation of your device is. That should clear up 99% of the cases.
- gweinberg 3y ago
  More like 55%. The usb ports on the bac of my machine are sideways, and the one on the top is backwards-ass wrong from what I would expect.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    Eww that's weird, ok in your case you are out of luck. That's pretty strange though, I have a ton of USB-A devices here and they are all in line with the way I outlined. So that's a bit of a surprise but it may well be an exception. As for the ones that are sideways: the 'bottom' of the case is the bottom of the motherboard, so if you think of it that way it might still work for all but the top side ones.
  - koolba 3y ago
    We live in a right handed universe so even sideways has a correct answer.
  - 9991 3y ago
    The motherboard has an "up" direction if you lay it out flat.
- Zancarius 3y ago
  I had a Cooler Master case where the IO stack at the top of the case had the opposite orientation (logo down). Threw me off forever. I'm at a point in my life where I've just given up and figure that I'm only going to get it right 1/3rd of the time anyway: Nope, turn; nope, turn; yup.

abhinavk 3y ago

Weirdly, the port on a cheap mechanical keyboard I have is USB-C but the cable they packaged is USB-C -> USB-A instead. They likely didn't package C->C because of the chicken and egg problem. Not everyone has enough Type-C ports.

tazard 3y ago
Same. Keyboard and mouse
Retr0id 3y ago
Type-C hubs are annoyingly expensive, because they all assume you want all the USB 3.x speed and/or power delivery bells and whistles - but for connecting simple peripherals none of that is necessary. I built my own based on a USB 2.0 hub IC, but I never got around to publishing the design files. I should get on that! Even building a single prototype unit cost me about the same as a single off-the-shelf type-C hub, but of course, building subsequent units would be substantially cheaper.
- jorvi 3y ago
  > Type-C hubs are annoyingly expensive, because they all assume you want all the USB 3.x speed and/or power delivery bells and whistles - but for connecting simple peripherals none of that is necessary. Meanwhile the most frequent complaint I read about USB-C is trickster/confusing cables or hubs because they don’t support everything
  - antifa 3y ago
    I have more trouble using Amazon's useless filters or finding products that even try to be more specific than just "USB-C".
  - Retr0id 3y ago
    My theory is that's why it's so hard to buy a "featureless" hub - consumers will demand refunds if feature X is not present.
- 3y ago

gweinberg 3y ago

Maybe it's a chicken and egg thing, but why do we still have usb-a keyboards and mice and thumb drives? wouldn't it make more sense for them all to be usb-c?

cesarb 3y ago
Having them be USB C would mean they could only be used on USB C ports (adapters from USB C socket to USB A plug are forbidden by the USB standard, because they would allow creating the forbidden USB A to USB A cable), while having them be USB A allows them to be used on both USB A ports and (with a simple passive adapter) USB C ports.
- lxgr 3y ago
  That’s a very good point. It doesn’t stop some manufacturers from still shipping the “forbidden” adapter type for just that use case, though. I prefer USB-A for FIDO authenticators for that reason (and because the plug is more robust for USB-A and basically indestructible; C plugs can and do get bent on a keychain).
  - TylerE 3y ago
    I have yet to see a bent usb c (not saying it couldn’t happen, but… It’s have seen multiple crushed USB A connectors.
    - TheKitchenSinc 3y ago
      As some anecdata, I work in facilities with hundreds of non-tech folks using USB-C Yubikeys and we see multiple bent connectors daily. Granted, our userbase isn’t known for treating electronics kindly…
    - lxgr 3y ago
      Ah, I should have been more precise: The (technically out of spec) "half-A" plug used by e.g. Yubikeys and some low-profile USB drives seems near indestructible to me. Regular A plugs can definitely be crushed.

dangus 3y ago

On the other hand, the introduction of USB-C will reach its 10 year anniversary in just a couple of years. If this were 2008 you would definitely call a parallel port, a 56k modem, or a floppy drive a relic even though you probably used one in 1998.

anonymouskimmer 3y ago
My 1996 $2000 Packard Bell was effectively unusable by 2003 or so. My 2003 or so upgraded machine couldn't play Youtube videos by 2012. My early 2013 $600 Lenovo laptop is still going fine today (though it helps that I don't game anymore).
dehrmann 3y ago
That's not a fair comparison considering how compatible USB-C is with USB 3.0 A/B.
- dangus 3y ago
  Compatibility wasn’t what motivated people to switch away from the parallel port, 56k modem, nor the floppy disk. Consider this exercise: The Nintendo Switch is the third best-selling console of all time. Walk me through how you would design it if the only port was USB-A.
  - anonymouskimmer 3y ago
    Back in 1998 there were 4 or 5 main port types. And today there are still 4 or 5 main port types (with bluetooth as well). Compatibility was indeed the reason to switch to USB in the first place, as the universal serial bus made plug-and-play real. No reason not to have two USB port types, except device thinness. The only issue the parallel port, 56k modem, and floppy disk share in common is throughput. This isn't a problem with USB-A compared to USB-C (until USB 4.0 becomes mainstream).
    - dangus 3y ago
      You can buy middle American mass market automobiles that have USB-C and do not have USB-A. That’s your bellwether. Most of the USB user base doesn’t care about that nerdy stuff.

hhh 3y ago

I understand your point, but keyboards and mice aren’t the correct target I feel. I haven’t had a non USB-C peripheral in at least 4 years.

smohare 3y ago

Almost all of the dozen keyboards I’ve bought on the last few years are USB-C.

sh-run 3y ago

My mouse and keyboard are both usb-c and I wasn't specifically looking for usb-c when I ordered either of them. Logitech MX Master 3 and Keychron Q1. They are both relatively high end devices, but I don't think it's hard to find usb-c devices. That said I do own lots of usb-a devices and will continue to own them for the foreseeable future. I would not purchase a laptop that was usb-c only today.

vladvasiliu 3y ago
Is your MX Master the "mac" version? The reason I ask is because my 3s came with a USB-A dongle (which I prefer instead of Bluetooth). I've never used its charging cable, so I don't remember whether it was c-c or c-a. It also didn't have a C-A adapter provided, so if you want to use the dongle and only have usb-c ports available, you have to supply your own.
- sh-run 3y ago
  That's a good point, thanks for keeping me honest! Mine is not the Mac version. USB-C to charge it, but dongle is A now that you mention it. It stays plugged into the back of my monitor.
throw555chip 3y ago
This keyboard is brand new, Type A. I don't recall any I was shopping for to be Type C.

cwbriscoe 3y ago

Both my wireless keyboard and mouse are USB-C. I use the C connection for charging them.

vladvasiliu 3y ago
My wireless mouse has a usb-c port for charging only (doesn't have a wired mode). But its dongle is usb-a only and no adapter was provided. It's a rather recent and "high-end" model, too: an mx master 3s.

drdaeman 3y ago

> I challenge the author to go find a wired keyboard or mouse that comes with a USB C plug. it’s possible, but not easy. My Moonlander Mk1 does, it has C-to-C cable with an optional C-to-A adapter on one end. My mouse is type C, but it comes with C-to-A cable. But, obviously, this is chicken-and-egg kind of a problem. No one will build a cheap mass market keyboard with a C-to-C cable for a market (desktop computer users) where type C connectors are nearly non-existent. Extra components (adapters or extra cables) won't be worth it. If the majority of desktops will shift to have majority of their ports of type C, you won't find a type A keyboard anymore. Just like you will have some difficulty finding a PS/2 keyboard today (sure they exist, but aren't exactly widespread anymore).

glennpratt 3y ago

The dirt cheap mechanical keyboard I just bought is USB-C. Which was great, because I didn't need an adapter.

arcticbull 3y ago

USB A was released in 1996, it's older than I suspect the majority of HN readers at this point. An A to C cable is entirely passive, so not exactly a big deal to get a cheap adapter. Not sure I'd rely on keyboards as the standard bearer for 'not a relic' many of them still support PS/2 via passive adapter. That was announced in 1987 and is older than me.

picture 3y ago
Comparing technology to human lifetimes doesn't seem very relevant. Even not accounting for broad categories like "fire" or "language", we're still using individual technology from "long ago" like knives, forks, pen and paper, etc. It's fine to make improvements that keep backwards compatibility (more ergonomic scissor should be able to cut the same paper), but changing connector just because it's old is unwise. The issue of type C is that it's trying to accommodate the entire spectrum of applications from very high bandwidth to very low cost. The range of possibilities has much increased since when Universal Serial Bus was devised, thus many recent solutions feel like they're bad at everything and good at nothing. Perhaps we should allow the specialization of type A as a cheap, reliable, slow, high power, connector, and save type C for only when high throughput is needed?
- arcticbull 3y ago
  > ... but changing connector just because it's old is unwise Well not because it's old, I'm a huge fan of my 1/8" headphone jack. Type C is intentionally significantly more functional (not to mention the ergonomics of reversibility) but also fully backwards-compatible requiring only passive routing to get you a Type A adapter. > The issue of type C is that it's trying to accommodate the entire spectrum of applications from very high bandwidth to very low cost. That's up to the host. You can support just USB 2.0 with the same signals routed as a vanilla type A connector. There's even super cheap USB-C receptacles that only have the relevant USB 2.0 pins routed out. Like this one [1]. There's really no reason I can think of not to use one. [1] https://www.digikey.ca/en/products/detail/gct/USB4125-GF-A/13547388 https://www.digikey.ca/en/products/detail/gct/USB4125-GF-A/1...

MR4D 3y ago

> I challenge the author to go find a wired keyboard or mouse that comes with a USB C plug. it’s possible, but not easy. So let’s see . . . I have the following in my house, most are at least 2 years old and all are USB-C : MacBook Air MX3 mouse Keychron keyboard iPhone 15 iPad Air Xbox controllers (several) LG 4K monitor Racer Headphones Rode VideoMic Go II Pebble V2 speakers GoPro 11 Chromebook laptop

Kuraj 3y ago

Yet on the opposite side we are still buying USB A peripherals _because_ we do not have USB C ports everywhere.

lloeki 3y ago

> calling USB A “legacy” and a “relic” is so misplaced. we all still own USB A devices. All my client devices have detachable cables. All my host devices are USB-C and have been for a while, except for a) Xbox, b) RPis, c) Car. a) I rarely plug anything into it except a dedicated charging cable or the odd Xbox-specialized devices. b) for which client devices (if any) are never unplugged c) A cable is plugged in and never leaves the port For general-use client devices I either swapped cables for USB-C to uUSB-A or USB-B or had USB-C OOTB for recent devices, increasingly so on both ends. I also recently moved from an iPhone 7 to an iPhone 13 Mini. If it wasn't for Apple refusing to do an iPhone 15 Mini I'd be USB-C all around. > I challenge the author to go find a wired keyboard or mouse that comes with a USB-C plug. Accepted: I've had both for over a year: Keychron K2, Keychron M1. Logitech has a lot of devices with USB-C client side. The irony is that one of them came with a USB-A (host side) to USB-C (client side) cable. The other one was C-C with a "upgrade your computer connector" C-A adapter†. > Then in 5 years Huh. I've been going all in on USB-C since 2018, my strategy being to pick the new standard through and through and backport/polyfill USB-C on the USB-A host side† as needed, NOT the other way around. It's absolutely ridiculous that any off-the-self device today has anything else than a USB-C port client-side (which is where most of the mess actually is with all the mini x micro x hispeed x A x B x HDMI x DP connectors). I'm not throwing away any pre-C device or cable, I upgrade existing cables to be USB-C††. If a cable fails I get a C-whatever replacement. As far as I'm concerned USB-A/B is a relic. Folks cling onto it like they clung to VGA (then, and now HDMI), floppy or optical drives. † Upgrade the host port by leaving this permanently in the host device port: https://www.amazon.com/UGREEN-Adapter-Female-Converter-Charger/dp/B079K773M7 https://www.amazon.com/UGREEN-Adapter-Female-Converter-Charg... †† Upgrade the cable by leaving this on the cable: https://www.amazon.com/UGREEN-Adapter-Thunderbolt-Compatible-MacBook/dp/B0872VN39L https://www.amazon.com/UGREEN-Adapter-Thunderbolt-Compatible...

Max-q 3y ago

> I challenge the author to go find a wired keyboard or mouse that comes with a USB C plug. Not the author, but all my Logitech keyboards have USB-C.

blueflow 3y ago

> calling USB A “legacy” and a “relic” is so misplaced Calling established technologies "legacy" and "relic" despite them being widely adopted and used should be recognized as the manipulative intellectual dishonesty that it is.