6 ms·

Teddy Roosevelt pursues the boat thieves (2015)

107 points by keiferski 3y ago

Lk3j4tlkjlq34 3y ago
[dead]
it_citizen 3y ago
If you haven't already, read The Rise of Theodore Roosevelt. One of the best biographies I have ever read.
- rrwright 3y ago
  +1 to this. That book has a few sections describing policy arguments on the floor of the New York Senate which are so well written that they are absolutely riveting! It sounds ridiculous to say that political arguments (from 100+ years ago) could keep you on the edge of your seat, but they do. It’s why this book the Pulitzer Prize.
  - it_citizen 3y ago
    I think I took note of that exact passage: > Some insult to do with the pea jacket (legend quotes it as “Won’t Mamma’s boy catch cold?”) caused Roosevelt to flare up. “Teddy knocked him down,” Hunt recalled admiringly, “and he got up and he hit him again, and when he got up he hit him again, and he said, ‘Now you go over there and wash yourself. There was a broken chair in the room, and I got a leg of it loose and put it down beside me where it was not visible, but where I might get at it in a hurry if necessary I then put the bill in my pocket and announced that I would report it anyhow. This almost precipitated a riot, especially when I explained … that I suspected that the men holding up all report of the bill were holding it up for purposes of blackmail. The riot did not come off; partly, I think, because the opportune production of the chair-leg had a sedative effect, and partly owing to wise counsels from one or two of my opponents.
- aroma_mic 3y ago
  Going to go look for an audio book
dmix 3y ago
> The men he was chasing were armed and dangerous. How might you have reacted to the theft of a replaceable boat when capturing the thieves was so time-consuming and dangerous? This might sound a bit self-helpy but I've found one of the best indicators of a great people is their passion for caring about things most other people wouldn't bother to put effort into and then turning that basic caring into something bigger and interesting. Like how this turn into one of his many legendary life stories. Most of us have a capacity for a few things to care about but some people have an ability/energy to cast that broadly. The small details add up in life and it's what communities (and businesses) are built off of. Basically a dedication to principles and making the world you want to see not just consuming it.
- ajkjk 3y ago
  The notion of objects being replaceable and therefore you shouldn't do much when they're taken is.. I think?... an invention of risk departments at modern corporations. Like sure if you're a department store you don't want to risk your employees getting hurt stopping a shoplifter, the downside far exceeds the upside. But as a person? That's your stuff, and it makes total sense to want it, not a replacement, and to want to punish the thief in the process. You're fully within your moral rights (imo) to try to take it back. .. I mean, within reason. Don't do anything stupid. Anyway this very human urge is why e.g. rampant property theft in certain US cities is so frustrating. I want to live in a world where the government protects not just my life and rights but also my stuff and the coherence of the world. Within reason.
  - ultimafan 3y ago
    Agreed, and at the risk of saying something inflammatory, it really grinds my gears when I hear people argue against lethal defense of property with comments along the lines of, "Is your X really worth more than someone's life?", as if the moral and ethical burden should fall on the victim and not the aggressor. Property and ownings aren't free, you often cannot replace them without cost or replace them at all if they are sentimental. The money I spent to buy them, and the money I will spend to replace them, did not come from nowhere, that represents time wasted out of my life, that I will never get back. In a sense someone stealing something from you is not just about the material value of what was stolen but the transfer of all the hours of your life you wasted to afford it to someone who didn't. In an abstract sense it is an indirect assault on your lifespan. The real question to thieves should be, is YOUR life less valuable to you than my possessions?
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
0xfffafaCrash 3y ago
Interesting that the US NPS leaves completely un-noted the description of a thief as a half-breed. Some of Roosevelt’s other commentary on Native Americans: “I don’t go so far as to think that the only good Indians are the dead Indians, but I believe nine out of every ten are, and I shouldn’t like to inquire too closely into the case of the tenth.” Perhaps even now the NPS can’t help but turn a blind eye to the less endearing aspects of Roosevelt’s legacy.
- junofan 3y ago
  Assuming a historical figure wasn’t racist feels like a bad default. I don’t think it’s necessary to point out racism in every hagiography.
- throwaway6734 3y ago
  don't try to apply modern moral standards on historical figures
  - cocacola1 3y ago
    I’m sure decent people existed then, too. Rather, no need to make excuses for historical figures who don’t care if you criticize them.
- reese_john 3y ago
  Theodore Roosevelt was actually quite progressive for his time. He was one of the first US president to invite a black man, Booker T. Washington, to dinner at the White House[0] On October 16, 1901, shortly after moving into the White House, President Theodore Roosevelt invited his adviser, the African American spokesman Booker T. Washington, to dine with him and his family. The event provoked an outpouring of condemnation from white politicians and press in the American South.[1] This reaction affected subsequent White House practice and no other African American was invited to dinner for almost thirty years Ironically, democrats were one of the most ardent critics: The response from the southern press and politicians was immediate, sustained and vicious. James K. Vardaman, a Democrat from Mississippi, complained that the White House was now, "so saturated with the odor of nigger that the rats had taken refuge in the stable;" the Memphis Scimitar declared it "the most damnable outrage which has ever been perpetrated by any citizen of the United States" Very different times. One shouldn't judge past generations according to today's ethical norms. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Booker_T._Washington_dinner_at_the_White_House https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Booker_T._Washington_dinner_at...
dxs 3y ago
Background... 1) Great read: "Roosevelt in the Bad Lands", by Hermann Hagedorn. Boston and New York Houghton Mifflin Company, The Riverside Press Cambridge 1921, Copyright 1921 by Hermann Hagedorn, available at https://www.gutenberg.org/files/24317/24317-h/24317-h.htm https://www.gutenberg.org/files/24317/24317-h/24317-h.htm 2) Some modern photos of the country there, plus my own random thoughts: "Moody, hey?" at https://ultralighter.blogspot.com/2017/10/moody-hey.html https://ultralighter.blogspot.com/2017/10/moody-hey.html I like the story of Roosevelt in a Montana bar. When a local cowboy came up to him with revolver drawn, mortally offended that some Fancy Eastern Dude would actually show his face in that establishment while WEARING EYEGLASSES of all things, Roosevelt stood, faced the man, KO'd him with one punch to the face, and got the upvotes of all assembled.
- e40 3y ago
  The Moody link was fantastic. Thanks.
- mistrial9 3y ago
  knuckleheads are nothing to celebrate - you can't wear glasses in that bar because you have to be ready to knuckle-up. generations of broken tooth morons IMHO hint- yes, getting knocked hard in the head, over and over, often results in long-term brain damage. The men who practiced it had honor among the hunting pack, to look past not being able to do simple arithmetic or remember what week it is... more common among illiterate people, since reading differentiates quickly for those cognitive traits
virgulino 3y ago
Related: the Roosevelt–Rondon Scientific Expedition through the Amazon River system, in Brazil. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roosevelt%E2%80%93Rondon_Scientific_Expedition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roosevelt%E2%80%93Rondon_Scien... The River of Doubt, Roosevelt's documentary of the expedition: https://youtu.be/fKXOtJeaTEQ https://youtu.be/fKXOtJeaTEQ A 100-year anniversary expedition visiting the Roosevelt River in Brazil. https://youtu.be/hUACMEJfCvc https://youtu.be/hUACMEJfCvc Roosevelt wrote, “Tell Osborn I have already lived and enjoyed as much of life as any nine other men I know; I have had my full share, and if it is necessary for me to leave my bones in South America, I am quite ready to do so.” ― Candice Millard, The River of Doubt: Theodore Roosevelt's Darkest Journey “Let us weep,” Rondon would tell them, “for I loved this man who has perished for my sake. But I command you to do as he did. Never shoot.” Rondon believed that his mission in protecting and pacifying the Indians was larger than his own life, larger than any of their lives. He would rather die than surrender his ideals, and he obliged his men to follow suit.” ― Candice Millard, The River of Doubt: Theodore Roosevelt's Darkest Journey

107 points by keiferski 3y ago

Lk3j4tlkjlq34 3y ago

[dead]

it_citizen 3y ago

If you haven't already, read The Rise of Theodore Roosevelt. One of the best biographies I have ever read.

rrwright 3y ago
+1 to this. That book has a few sections describing policy arguments on the floor of the New York Senate which are so well written that they are absolutely riveting! It sounds ridiculous to say that political arguments (from 100+ years ago) could keep you on the edge of your seat, but they do. It’s why this book the Pulitzer Prize.
- it_citizen 3y ago
  I think I took note of that exact passage: > Some insult to do with the pea jacket (legend quotes it as “Won’t Mamma’s boy catch cold?”) caused Roosevelt to flare up. “Teddy knocked him down,” Hunt recalled admiringly, “and he got up and he hit him again, and when he got up he hit him again, and he said, ‘Now you go over there and wash yourself. There was a broken chair in the room, and I got a leg of it loose and put it down beside me where it was not visible, but where I might get at it in a hurry if necessary I then put the bill in my pocket and announced that I would report it anyhow. This almost precipitated a riot, especially when I explained … that I suspected that the men holding up all report of the bill were holding it up for purposes of blackmail. The riot did not come off; partly, I think, because the opportune production of the chair-leg had a sedative effect, and partly owing to wise counsels from one or two of my opponents.
aroma_mic 3y ago
Going to go look for an audio book

dmix 3y ago

> The men he was chasing were armed and dangerous. How might you have reacted to the theft of a replaceable boat when capturing the thieves was so time-consuming and dangerous? This might sound a bit self-helpy but I've found one of the best indicators of a great people is their passion for caring about things most other people wouldn't bother to put effort into and then turning that basic caring into something bigger and interesting. Like how this turn into one of his many legendary life stories. Most of us have a capacity for a few things to care about but some people have an ability/energy to cast that broadly. The small details add up in life and it's what communities (and businesses) are built off of. Basically a dedication to principles and making the world you want to see not just consuming it.

ajkjk 3y ago
The notion of objects being replaceable and therefore you shouldn't do much when they're taken is.. I think?... an invention of risk departments at modern corporations. Like sure if you're a department store you don't want to risk your employees getting hurt stopping a shoplifter, the downside far exceeds the upside. But as a person? That's your stuff, and it makes total sense to want it, not a replacement, and to want to punish the thief in the process. You're fully within your moral rights (imo) to try to take it back. .. I mean, within reason. Don't do anything stupid. Anyway this very human urge is why e.g. rampant property theft in certain US cities is so frustrating. I want to live in a world where the government protects not just my life and rights but also my stuff and the coherence of the world. Within reason.
- ultimafan 3y ago
  Agreed, and at the risk of saying something inflammatory, it really grinds my gears when I hear people argue against lethal defense of property with comments along the lines of, "Is your X really worth more than someone's life?", as if the moral and ethical burden should fall on the victim and not the aggressor. Property and ownings aren't free, you often cannot replace them without cost or replace them at all if they are sentimental. The money I spent to buy them, and the money I will spend to replace them, did not come from nowhere, that represents time wasted out of my life, that I will never get back. In a sense someone stealing something from you is not just about the material value of what was stolen but the transfer of all the hours of your life you wasted to afford it to someone who didn't. In an abstract sense it is an indirect assault on your lifespan. The real question to thieves should be, is YOUR life less valuable to you than my possessions?

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

0xfffafaCrash 3y ago

Interesting that the US NPS leaves completely un-noted the description of a thief as a half-breed. Some of Roosevelt’s other commentary on Native Americans: “I don’t go so far as to think that the only good Indians are the dead Indians, but I believe nine out of every ten are, and I shouldn’t like to inquire too closely into the case of the tenth.” Perhaps even now the NPS can’t help but turn a blind eye to the less endearing aspects of Roosevelt’s legacy.

junofan 3y ago
Assuming a historical figure wasn’t racist feels like a bad default. I don’t think it’s necessary to point out racism in every hagiography.
throwaway6734 3y ago
don't try to apply modern moral standards on historical figures
- cocacola1 3y ago
  I’m sure decent people existed then, too. Rather, no need to make excuses for historical figures who don’t care if you criticize them.
reese_john 3y ago
Theodore Roosevelt was actually quite progressive for his time. He was one of the first US president to invite a black man, Booker T. Washington, to dinner at the White House[0] On October 16, 1901, shortly after moving into the White House, President Theodore Roosevelt invited his adviser, the African American spokesman Booker T. Washington, to dine with him and his family. The event provoked an outpouring of condemnation from white politicians and press in the American South.[1] This reaction affected subsequent White House practice and no other African American was invited to dinner for almost thirty years Ironically, democrats were one of the most ardent critics: The response from the southern press and politicians was immediate, sustained and vicious. James K. Vardaman, a Democrat from Mississippi, complained that the White House was now, "so saturated with the odor of nigger that the rats had taken refuge in the stable;" the Memphis Scimitar declared it "the most damnable outrage which has ever been perpetrated by any citizen of the United States" Very different times. One shouldn't judge past generations according to today's ethical norms. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Booker_T._Washington_dinner_at_the_White_House https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Booker_T._Washington_dinner_at...

dxs 3y ago

Background... 1) Great read: "Roosevelt in the Bad Lands", by Hermann Hagedorn. Boston and New York Houghton Mifflin Company, The Riverside Press Cambridge 1921, Copyright 1921 by Hermann Hagedorn, available at https://www.gutenberg.org/files/24317/24317-h/24317-h.htm https://www.gutenberg.org/files/24317/24317-h/24317-h.htm 2) Some modern photos of the country there, plus my own random thoughts: "Moody, hey?" at https://ultralighter.blogspot.com/2017/10/moody-hey.html https://ultralighter.blogspot.com/2017/10/moody-hey.html I like the story of Roosevelt in a Montana bar. When a local cowboy came up to him with revolver drawn, mortally offended that some Fancy Eastern Dude would actually show his face in that establishment while WEARING EYEGLASSES of all things, Roosevelt stood, faced the man, KO'd him with one punch to the face, and got the upvotes of all assembled.

e40 3y ago
The Moody link was fantastic. Thanks.
mistrial9 3y ago
knuckleheads are nothing to celebrate - you can't wear glasses in that bar because you have to be ready to knuckle-up. generations of broken tooth morons IMHO hint- yes, getting knocked hard in the head, over and over, often results in long-term brain damage. The men who practiced it had honor among the hunting pack, to look past not being able to do simple arithmetic or remember what week it is... more common among illiterate people, since reading differentiates quickly for those cognitive traits

virgulino 3y ago

Related: the Roosevelt–Rondon Scientific Expedition through the Amazon River system, in Brazil. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roosevelt%E2%80%93Rondon_Scientific_Expedition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roosevelt%E2%80%93Rondon_Scien... The River of Doubt, Roosevelt's documentary of the expedition: https://youtu.be/fKXOtJeaTEQ https://youtu.be/fKXOtJeaTEQ A 100-year anniversary expedition visiting the Roosevelt River in Brazil. https://youtu.be/hUACMEJfCvc https://youtu.be/hUACMEJfCvc Roosevelt wrote, “Tell Osborn I have already lived and enjoyed as much of life as any nine other men I know; I have had my full share, and if it is necessary for me to leave my bones in South America, I am quite ready to do so.” ― Candice Millard, The River of Doubt: Theodore Roosevelt's Darkest Journey “Let us weep,” Rondon would tell them, “for I loved this man who has perished for my sake. But I command you to do as he did. Never shoot.” Rondon believed that his mission in protecting and pacifying the Indians was larger than his own life, larger than any of their lives. He would rather die than surrender his ideals, and he obliged his men to follow suit.” ― Candice Millard, The River of Doubt: Theodore Roosevelt's Darkest Journey