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Ask HN: Are job referrals worthless now?

• deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
• gregjor 3y ago
  No, you shouldn't generalize from a few examples. A good referral will get your CV in front of the hiring manager, skipping the screening and HR process. If you just get permission to put someone's name on the application that may not count for much. You should ask your contacts to get you on the short list so you bypass at least some of the hiring funnel. Right now the job market for more junior people looks brutal -- too many people with little experience and the same "skills" mix chasing a reduced number of jobs. If you are still early in your career you will find job hunting tough right now regardless of contacts and referrals.
  • cpeth 3y ago
    I think it might be brutal for more than junior people now. I thought I would be fine when my previous employer decided to offshore all of engineering and I was laid off as a result. I have been at an architect/lead/principal level for the last 7 years doing backend work with mostly state-of-the-art tech on AWS. 15 years experience total, and just getting no traction despite referrals. None of my jobs were at hyperscale FAANG types, or super sexy stuff. I'm not a thought leader with an influential blog nor have I built an open source library with 5k stars. Maybe that is what it takes to get a call back now? I'm a regular hacker who loves technology and never dreamed I would be struggling this badly.
    • reactordev 3y ago
      Mindset. Be humble and open to learning, don’t be desperate. Explain that this is what you love to do. That you genuinely care about the product/mission/service and you’ll land something. If you go in “I need a paycheck, I can code”, that’s not very compelling. I can teach someone to code. What I can’t teach is for someone to be hungry to learn. So be positive, be humble, be sharp, and be willing. Also, numbers game. 200 applications -> 63 interviews -> 12 callbacks -> 4 complete interview process -> 2 offers.
    • popularonion 3y ago
      I have 15 years of experience working on boring tech stacks, no social media presence at all, and I’m doing okay. I’d suggest hitting up some tech recruiters and downgrading your past job titles. As far as your job search is concerned, you weren’t a “lead architect” using “state-of-the-art tech”, you were a Staff DevOps Engineer with experience in <insert AWS buzzwords here>. Etc etc.
• MarkMarine 3y ago
  They are not worthless at all, at my company if you get a referral you will skip the phone interview and go right to in-person, and you're going to get called about it. When we are hiring. There is the rub, there are a number of companies that are either actively laying off, or just letting attrition nibble down their numbers without having to announce layoffs.
  • john-radio 3y ago
    > or just letting attrition nibble down their numbers without having to announce layoffs. When you say it like that it sounds mean, but it's a pretty civilized way to handle downsizing if you ask me.
    • Clubber 3y ago
      >it's a pretty civilized way to handle downsizing if you ask me. It is. Some companies will also offer the old timers early retirement packages. There are companies like this out there still, they just don't make headlines by being civil.
    • MarkMarine 3y ago
      I didn’t mean it to sound mean. I much prefer that to layoffs.
• noodle 3y ago
  Depends 100% on the company you're referring into. The larger the company, the less personal it tends to be. Conversely, if the "current employee" is a leader with hiring authority and the referral will be hired onto their team, the more personal it tends to be.
• ericls 3y ago
  If people just go for the best people in the world then one man will marry all the women in the world
  • 1letterunixname 3y ago
    Magical and aspirational thinking is a defective organizational practice.
  • koolba 3y ago
    In practice it doesn’t work that way because I don’t believe in polygamy.
• bastawhiz 3y ago
  I referred maybe thirty people to Stripe and I think maybe two of them got interviews. Nobody got an offer. At Uber, zero of my referrals were followed up on. At Box, I don't remember any referrals getting followed up on. I won't say they're worthless, but don't feel bad that you are getting the response that you are. Nearly every place I've been (and lots of places that friends are at) do an abysmal job of following up on referrals and taking them seriously. That said, you might want to ask a trusted friend to look at your online presence (LinkedIn, GitHub) and offer some critical feedback. It may simply be the case that—despite being well qualified—you don't look that way to recruiters following up on what amounts to a ticket in a queue.
  • pardoned_turkey 3y ago
    It matters why you're making the referral. I've seen far too many referrals made just because a stranger or a social acquittance pinged an employee on LinkedIn. And the employee's thinking is "why not". After all, they're helping a person in need and there might be a referral bonus for them down the line. I'm a recruiting coordinator or a hiring manager, there's nothing that signals to me that this is a good lead. I assume you're just doing this as a courtesy. I might take a cursory glance, but if the resume doesn't look particularly exciting, onto the pile it goes. The "how" part matters too. If you're referring a person who you know is amazing at their job, say so, and be specific. "I spent five years working with them at Foobar Industries and they are easily in the top 1% of all engineers at that company" is likely to get attention. "I know this person and I think they may be a fit" isn't.
    • lubujackson 3y ago
      Even if a referral comes from a LinkedIn random request, I would value that as a signal that, at a minimum, the prospect is putting in extra effort beyond most "click to apply" resumes. If you get 200 resumes for a role and lets say 20 come with a referral, why wouldn't you factor that at all?
      • pardoned_turkey 3y ago
• 1letterunixname 3y ago
  Actual referrals for specific needs are useful. Letters of recommendation are variably useful, but not warm intros. Social media-based "networking" in the industry has limited utility. I was 1-2nd degree on LI from most of Silicon Valley but with 100's of people I never talk to. You're barking up the wrong trees combining outbound effort that has much less value, especially if it's untargeted or unfocused. In general, it's better to market yourself and let the hiring managers and headhunters find you. Although, it's entirely possible to replace the role of the headhunters if you market and convey useful business value you present to prospective employers: a cover letter exists to sell a resume to sell a phone call and so on. If you're trying to network for work, I would check out hot and interesting tech meetups. Remember, it's sales and dating, and therefore, a numbers and interest game.
• elchief 3y ago
  I just got a job based on a referral from a friend that works there. 1. Small company 2. He's senior and has a strong rep
• deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
• squigglydonut 3y ago
  Yes
• tyingq 3y ago
  There's two kinds of referrals...the official ones with a program that goes through HR, then the unofficial where someone you know knows a hiring leader with an open spot. The latter is infinitely better.
  • Clubber 3y ago
    This. Referrals don't mean much at a company with a heavy, rigid bureaucracy. You still have to go through the machine.
    • fallingknife 3y ago
      But usually in my experience they do mean you actually get to go through the machine and aren't just auto rejected without even getting to talk to a human.
    • toasted-subs 3y ago
      Anecdotally, providing references for one organization seems to open doors for others.
• bmitc 3y ago
  Who knows? The job market is really crazy at times. I got contacted by an ex-company asking if I'd consider coming back, and then they never really even followed up after I showed potential interest, and they eventually said "they don't see a fit" when I followed up. Like, huh? They contacted me. In my view, the best a referral can do for you is to get eyes on your application and potentially bump it up in the stack. Unless you really know the specific hiring manager well, that seems like the best that's going to happen.
• iamthepieman 3y ago
  I just started a new job 3 weeks ago via a referral. I messaged a former coworker through LinkedIn, hopped on a call with the hiring manager a week later and was hired. The actual process was something like this 1. LinkedIn message to former coworker and short conversation about what role I was looking for. 2. Meeting with hiring manager and a peer of his who I had also worked with (different than the guy I initially reached out to) 3. Long wait while hiring manager got the job description officially approved and posted. 4. Fill out application via referral program webpage so the guy I contacted first got the referral bonus 5. HR screen/interview and salary negotiation. 6. Job offer 7. Start new job There were 4 former coworkers on the team I was hired into and we had all been part of an amazing team at a past company so take that as you will.
• jacknews 3y ago
  "I'm just getting simple rejection emails." Luxury.
• OldGuyInTheClub 3y ago
  That was my experience 10 years ago when I last looked. Had referrals to specific jobs and also "general availability" from several senior, respected people in my field. Got one interview which went well and then went silent. Rest got either no response or the snotty "Have him apply on the website."
• Manouchehri 3y ago
  A few years ago I did one or two phone interviews with a FAANG company, passed with flying colours, and was told by a manager I'd be flown in for the final on-site interview. The manager told me to send my resume to HR so they could make it official.. ...and I got rejected by HR, because I didn't have 8 years of working experience at 23. Still the funniest job hunting story I have.
• brudgers 3y ago
  A good job referral is like “Rick just quit Monday. Go talk to Greg. Tell him I sent you” in a Tuesday morning phone call. Good luck.
• rganesan 3y ago
  In my company a strong referral certainly carries a lot of weight. There is however a big difference between a casual referral (as in, I barely know this guy but he reached out to me) vs a strong referral (as in, I've worked with him and will vouch for him and I would like him on the team).
• GianFabien 3y ago
  The only referrals that ever worked for me were those where the referee and I would have drinks or lunches once every couple of months and he likewise with the person to whom I was referred.
• nikolayasdf123 3y ago
  it is indeed getting really saturated
• mediumsmart 3y ago
  I think it depends. My mum placed an ad in the newspaper looking for a job as a secretary and got more than 100 offers. She did not have any referrals since she was fresh out of secretary school with no prior experience. Times change.
• ageek123 3y ago
  Referrals are valuable when the referrer has worked with you in the past and can vouch for your abilities, experience, work ethic, creativity, etc. with specific details. Generic referrals that provide no information other than “the applicant knows someone who works at the company” are worthless to a hiring manager.
• alexfromapex 3y ago
  This is so funny to read, as it just happened to me and I never have used referrals before. I literally had a glowing referral from my previous coworker who I worked with at a startup that later sold for $400 million because of work that I did directly and who is friends with a senior VP at the company I’m interviewing at but I also still had to interview with 4 other team members and do a take home test. I think the field has reached peak stupidity.
• naet 3y ago
  Absolutely not, job referrals are extremely valuable and probably the best way you can fasttrack or boost your interview chances. They aren't a guaranteed job offer, but they're far from worthless.
• debacle 3y ago
  I'm not sure I've landed a job or client in the last 10 years that wasn't through a referral.
• thoughtegting 3y ago
  This probably won't sound satisfying but I can give you an honest answer from my own experience since I am seeing a shift in the hiring/interviewing/recruiting process myself. I think the market is a bit wonky at the moment. You have an exodus of talented folks from many tech companies, people competing internationally for remote positions, people using AI on the recruiting side, hiring end, and as applicants who tailor resumes and bot job postings. Weird times. Eventually the water is gonna separate from the oil, Stay the course, invest in yourself and keep at it.
  • herval 3y ago
    The resume tailoring thing will make CVs essentially worthless very soon. Question is what can replace it
    • thoughtegting 3y ago
      good problem to tackle and I'm sure companies are willing to pay for something remotely close to "good enough".
• gumby 3y ago
  A referral means at a minimum your resume will actually get read. In most cases that’s all it means (i.e. guarantees it won’t get rejected by the ATS). If the referrer walks it over to the hiring manager’s desk it means a lot more, but most of the time these days it just gets fed into the HR pipeline. You might want to revisit your resume. Of course I haven’t seen it, this is free advice from some rando, and other disclaimers.
• ChuckMcM 3y ago
  Someone referring you (with a positive hire recommendation) from inside the company is always a good thing. Someone referring you for the referral 'bonus' is not worth as much because what makes the first one good is that the person referring can explain why you would be a good fit. That said, reputations are a thing too. All through my career I've had a mix of people who thought I was great to people who thought I was terrible. It is often a function of how and when you interacted with them, at one place I worked I discovered that a person I had worked with before was had been actively "anti-recruiting" in that they didn't want me to come work there[1]. I was fortunate in that the hiring manager took the time to get a number of opinions and look past the drama and into what really was going on, but it certainly delayed things significantly and would have resulted in a decline had they not been willing to do that digging. This only gets worse the more senior you become because you have more opportunities to be perceived as having limited someone else's career/choices/etc. So 'referrals' in all forms are a net positive, some can be more positive than others. That said, one of the more interesting hires I did was a guy who offered to come work for me for free for two weeks on the promise that at the end of the two weeks we'd either hire him or not. Was a bit challenging to get that through HR/Legal (but we did) and he turned out to be great. But it wasn't obvious from his CV that he was as capable as he was and he did not have anyone locally that could be a reference. [1] I did reconcile what had happened with this person but they were completely accurate when they described me as an "asshole". I really was annoying early in my career, but that didn't become clear to me until later.
• giraffedesigner 3y ago
  Not at all, got my current job that I love via a referral from a friend from my previous job who moved to this company. They were inundated with applicants and the referral absolutely helped me stand out and ultimately get an offer.
• caydenm 3y ago
  The strength of a referral, the proximity and seniority of the referrer and role fit all come into play. A strong referral by a knowledgeable person often skips that person to the front of interview queue. I have hired a number of people based on referrals from team members, VCs and previous coworkers. Many referral systems have a how good do you think this personal really is field and often an option for "I don't know this person that well I am just referring them to say I did". If you are asking for a referral, make it as easy as possible for the referer to make you look great. They probably don't remember all your awesome work like you do, so make sure you give them simple impactful points.
• coldtrait 3y ago
  I have enough experience but not senior level yet and no impressive companies on my resume. My experience so far while being laid off has been not so promising so far with referrals: No response from Intuit Rejection from Atlassian The previous job I had at a decent organization was without a referral. The one before that too, which was a mid size consultancy firm was without a referral.
• the_only_law 3y ago
  A referral is the only reason I have a job. Spent a years getting rejected for roles that seemed a perfect fit at all stages of the hiring pipeline. These were from mostly cold apps and recruiter for jobs doing work aligning very closely with my past work, including trying to go back to a company that I had no issues getting into some years ago. Ended up getting a referral at one place, hadn’t touched the tech they were using in years, or sometimes at all, had an awkward interview. I was just waiting for the rejection email, but what I got was a call extending an offer.